CSPP San Diego VS George Washington PsyD

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Hi All,

I really need help deciding between CSPP San Diego and Geaorge Washington PsyD program. I come from a psychoanalytic background and am from Europe, but I would like to get exposed to various diciplines and not to limit myself to only psychoanalytic perspectives. From what I gathered, GW is a more psychodynamic focused program.
Which program is more reputable and you have a better chance of getting an APA accredited internship?
I truly appreciate your advice.
Thank you in advance

The best advice I can give you is to check each programs website for info related to match rate (pay special attention to where people are matching, APA accreditation, and whether or not they are being paid), ask yourself how much money you're willing to fork over (either now or later to Sallie Mae), and what you intend on doing with the degree. Also, utilize the search function on SDN. It's a really great source for info and I'm sure you could find info on both programs and their reputations.

Yet again....these programs have already been discussed ad nauseum. Did you even try to do a search before posting a new thread?

Thank you YA YA for the input, I appreciate it.

And Therapist4chnge, yes I did, I needed an up-to-date comparison not something from 2005, the two programs are discussed individually but I would like to hear how students and graduates would compare and rate the two...
I appreciate it if u would give some helpful ideas and not waste your time and mine with such comments...

Originally Posted by Radycarter

Thank you YA YA for the input, I appreciate it.

And Therapist4chnge, yes I did, I needed an up-to-date comparison not something from 2005, the two programs are discussed individually but I would like to hear how students and graduates would compare and rate the two...

An important aspect of research is being able to integrate information from a variety of sources. If you expect people to do the heavy lifting for you, then you will be in for a rude awakening trying to get into the field. SDN members are far more likely to provide feedback to posters who actually put in effort and ask informed questions, not the ones who want the answers just provided to them.

So I recommend again....go spend a couple of hours researching the schools individually, and then maybe ask some questions. If you can't commit a couple of hours to researching programs that could possibly shape your training....then I'd question your commitment to the process.

For instance....

Originally Posted by Radycarter

Which program is more reputable and you have a better chance of getting an APA accredited internship?

1. Reputation is easily discerned by doing a search of posts on the forum. There are prospective students, students, interns, post-docs, and professionals in the field who have posted in those threads. Those are the people who's opinion you should strongly consider.

2. The APA match rates for a program are listed on each program's website under "Educational Outcome" data. This data, more than anything else, will provide the most accurate representation of a training program's ability to place its students into an APA acred. internship. If a program cannot consistently place all/the vast majority of their students into APA-acred. spots, then that is a HUGE red flag.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

An important aspect of research is being able to integrate information from a variety of sources. If you expect people to do the heavy lifting for you, then you will be in for a rude awakening trying to get into the field.

Wow, where's the love?

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

For instance....



1. Reputation is easily discerned by doing a search of posts on the forum. There are prospective students, students, interns, post-docs, and professionals in the field who have posted in those threads. Those are the people who's opinion you should strongly consider.

2. The APA match rates for a program are listed on each program's website under "Educational Outcome" data. This data, more than anything else, will provide the most accurate representation of a training program's ability to place its students into an APA acred. internship. If a program cannot consistently place all/the vast majority of their students into APA-acred. spots, then that is a HUGE red flag.

Thanks for giving a more useful comment..I appreciate it

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

An important aspect of research is being able to integrate information from a variety of sources. If you expect people to do the heavy lifting for you, then you will be in for a rude awakening trying to get into the field. SDN members are far more likely to provide feedback to posters who actually put in effort and ask informed questions, not the ones who want the answers just provided to them.

So I recommend again....go spend a couple of hours researching the schools individually, and then maybe ask some questions. If you can't commit a couple of hours to researching programs that could possibly shape your training....then I'd question your commitment to the process.

oooo heavy lifting...! people sharing their experience..now I am awakened and have also learned a great lesson in life !...omg..just leave it if u don't wanna help...pathetic..don't you have anything else to do..

Also, an important aspect of being a therapist is to use your time wisely and stop using a forum, that is meant to help share knowledge and experience, as an outlet for your anger and frustration.

I can't believe I actually wasted my time engaging in this with u..

Anyways, please stop wasting your time and mine with these comments. I have done my research and am looking for resourceful input and comments from matture and knowledgable individuals who like to share their knowledge.

Did you just thank and then insult the same person? Weird...

Originally Posted by Radycarter

Thanks for giving a more useful comment..I appreciate it

Good object

Originally Posted by Radycarter

oooo heavy lifting...! people sharing their experience..now I am awakened and have also learned a great lesson in life !...omg..just leave it if u don't wanna help...pathetic..don't you have anything else to do..

Also, an important aspect of being a therapist is to use your time wisely and stop using a forum, that is meant to help share knowledge and experience, as an outlet for your anger and frustration.

I can't believe I actually wasted my time engaging in this with u..

Anyways, please stop wasting your time and mine with these comments. I have done my research and am looking for resourceful input and comments from matture and knowledgable individuals who like to share their knowledge.

Bad object

Originally Posted by erg923

Did you just thank and then insult the same person? Weird...

...and completely uncalled for.

Originally Posted by Radycarter

I have done my research...

Your questions and comments thus far speak to the contrary.

Originally Posted by aequitasveritas

Bad object

I always heard your kind label as "bad breast/good breast." I prefer this term!

Originally Posted by erg923

I always heard your kind label as "bad breast/good breast." I prefer this term!

Melanie Klein would be proud of you!

Originally Posted by aequitasveritas

Melanie Klein would be proud of you!

As a behaviorist...I don't buy in to a ton of the classic interpretation of dynamic work, though I do find Object Relations Theory to be an interesting perspective. If given sufficient time to explore, I think it can be helpful to conceptualize, particularly for the Cluster-B folks.

To keep it on topic ( ), I think GWU would welcome this discussion, while CSPP SD would be oblivious to it because the weather is far too nice for anyone to be inside talking about psych theory.

Well, this exchange has successfully scared me off from creating a thread soliciting decision advice about UCSB vs. UW Madison School Psych... I have put hours and hours of independent research into the two programs I am debating between, but it really helps to hear anecdotes from others as part of my research.

Hi FemmeFeline! Congratulations! If both schools offer equal funding, I'd say nothing beats going to school in paradise. I know that UW Madison may have a better reputation overall, but UCSB is considered to be one of the best School Psych programs in the country. If you are going to spend a large chunk of your life on the emotional rollercoaster called grad school, enough cannot be said for the impact that sunlight and fresh air has on your mental well-being. UCSB also has the added bonus of being a combined program which allows for more flexibility in the job market.

Just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by erg923

I always heard your kind label as "bad breast/good breast." I prefer this term!

I was trained in Freudian schools but good one, actually I prefer the term: No, Bad dog, and Yes, Good Dog...

Originally Posted by erg923

Did you just thank and then insult the same person? Weird...

If u ever had to train a dog, you would understand the concept...

Originally Posted by FemmeFeline

. I have put hours and hours of independent research into the two programs I am debating between, but it really helps to hear anecdotes from others as part of my research.

Exactly, that's why I made this thread, and I keep checking back to see if anyone is actually mature enough to post a useful reply. Unfortunately, it seems that people have awful lot of extra time on their hands which they'd rather waste posting nonesense...

Originally Posted by Radycarter

If u ever had to train a dog, you would understand the concept...

Who's feeling uncomfortable?

Originally Posted by Radycarter

Exactly, that's why I made this thread, and I keep checking back to see if anyone is actually mature enough to post a useful reply. Unfortunately, it seems that people have awful lot of extra time on their hands which they'd rather waste posting nonesense...

Nonsense...nonsense....nonsense....says the dog

The number of posts under each member's name speaks for itself ! directly proportional to the amount of extra time these people have..
I appreciate it if we could go back to the subject..
any helpful advice with regards to the two universities is truly appreciated..

Originally Posted by PsychPhDHopeful

Hi FemmeFeline! Congratulations! If both schools offer equal funding, I'd say nothing beats going to school in paradise. I know that UW Madison may have a better reputation overall, but UCSB is considered to be one of the best School Psych programs in the country. If you are going to spend a large chunk of your life on the emotional rollercoaster called grad school, enough cannot be said for the impact that sunlight and fresh air has on your mental well-being. UCSB also has the added bonus of being a combined program which allows for more flexibility in the job market.

Just my thoughts.

Very well said.
If you don't mind, would you please provide some insight about GW and CSPP SD and how you compare the two...?
Thank you in advance..

Originally Posted by Radycarter

I was trained in Freudian schools

Really?

As someone who is training at a psychoanalytic institute after my doctorate, I am curious as to what "schools" are training those who have ostensibly not been through a graduate program.

Look, do a search for CSPP SD on SDN. If you really have further questions about it, go ahead and PM me. I went there for my PhD.

I have a Masters which I guess would be considered graduate work in Europe. Anyways, I believe things are different in north America, ok thanks for the advice, I will.

San Diego is a great place...Honestly, without knowing much about either school, I might just lean towards CSPP San Diego...

Congrats!

good luck with your decision!! best wishes!

I worked with two GW PsyD students while working on my masters and they always spoke very highly of the program. I have heard, though not from them, that there are a few places in the DC area (one is St. Elizabeth's) that won't take their students for prac opportunities because of how psychodynamic they are. Also, DC is awesome.

Originally Posted by busybusybusy

I worked with two GW PsyD students while working on my masters and they always spoke very highly of the program. I have heard, though not from them, that there are a few places in the DC area (one is St. Elizabeth's) that won't take their students for prac opportunities because of how psychodynamic they are. Also, DC is awesome.

Yes, DC is a cool place too...tough choice!

Originally Posted by busybusybusy

I worked with two GW PsyD students while working on my masters and they always spoke very highly of the program. I have heard, though not from them, that there are a few places in the DC area (one is St. Elizabeth's) that won't take their students for prac opportunities because of how psychodynamic they are. Also, DC is awesome.

Exactly what this person said. I know a couple people who went to GWU and absolutely loved it. It is definitely a psychodynamic program and you will have very little exposure to other orientations. Their APA internship match rate isn't that great - between 40-70% most years. DC can have very cold winters and the summer heat can be oppressive. However, DC is an awesome city!

But, so is San Diego. The weather is unbelievable...72 degrees, sunny, no humidity. This is every day of the year. The internship match rate seems to be a little lower than GWU, running from 25% (HORRIBLE!) to 60% in the last decade.

Both programs can be completed in about the same amount of time and the tuition costs are similar, as well as the cost of living for both cities (read:expensive). I'd say that GWU has a better reputation, mostly because it is university based. When considering that CSPP gives more exposure to other schools of thought, my opinion is that the benefits of each program are about equal.

However, if I was in your position, I would wait a year and apply to PsyD programs that offer some funding and have better APA match rates. Check out Pepperdine and Rutgers. Both are well respected and offer decent funding.

Originally Posted by PsychPhDHopeful

The internship match rate seems to be a little lower than GWU, running from 25% (HORRIBLE!) to 60% in the last decade.

CSPP San Diego most recent (2011-2012) APA match rate= 12% (APA or APPIC=18%)

For GWU Psyd. most recent (2010) APA/APPIC match rate= 80.6% (they don't separate out apa vs appic)

Those are very important numbers- much more meaningful than the average temperature. The 12-18% mean that there is a significant likelihood that your career advancement might be held hostage by the reputation of your program. While certainly not insurmountable, choosing that path at the very least mean you lose the right to complain about the internship imbalance 5-6 years from now.

Originally Posted by ClinicalABA

CSPP San Diego most recent (2011-2012) APA match rate= 12% (APA or APPIC=18%)

For GWU Psyd. most recent (2010) APA/APPIC match rate= 80.6% (they don't separate out apa vs appic)

Those are very important numbers- much more meaningful than the average temperature. The 12-18% mean that there is a significant likelihood that your career advancement might be held hostage by the reputation of your program. While certainly not insurmountable, choosing that path at the very least mean you lose the right to complain about the internship imbalance 5-6 years from now.

I'd imagine CSPP SD's APA/APPIC numbers are lower at least in part owing to more students going the CAPIC route. Not that I feel this to be an acceptable alternative, mind you (I'm not big on the whole CAPIC thing; I appreciate the effort, but would much rather they ditch the acceptance of half-time and/or unpaid positions and adhere to APPIC standards en route to APA accred).

But very good points regardless.

Originally Posted by AcronymAllergy

I'd imagine CSPP SD's APA/APPIC numbers are lower at least in part owing to more students going the CAPIC route.

That's definitely the case- 77% went to CAPIC sites.

Originally Posted by ClinicalABA

For GWU Psyd. most recent (2010) APA/APPIC match rate= 80.6% (they don't separate out apa vs appic)

This actually violates the CoA (Commission of Acred. of the APA) guidelines, which specify that the educational outcome data must list:

Programs are expected to provide data on students’ success in obtaining internships. The program is required to report for

each of the past seven (7) years:
 The total number of students who sought or applied for internships
 The number and percent of total who obtained internships
 The number and percent of total who obtained paid internships
 The number and percent of total who obtained APA/CPA-accredited internships
 The number and percent of total who obtained non-accredited, APPIC member internships
 The number and percent of total who obtained non-accredited, other membership organization internships (e.g., CAPIC) (if applicable)
 The number and percent of total who obtained non-accredited internships conforming to CDSPP guidelines (school psychology programs only) (if applicable)
 The number and percent of total who obtained two-year, half-time internships (if applicable)

NOTE: In calculating the above percentages, the program must base these on the total number of students who sought or who applied for internship in each year.

It was probably just an oversight when they updated the data, as I've seen that happen at other programs. I dropped the program a quick e-mail to ask about their APA-acred. match rate from the past few years and let them know that their data was incomplete. I'll post up the APA-acred. data once they get back to me.

Originally Posted by AcronymAllergy

I'd imagine CSPP SD's APA/APPIC numbers are lower at least in part owing to more students going the CAPIC route. Not that I feel this to be an acceptable alternative, mind you (I'm not big on the whole CAPIC thing; I appreciate the effort, but would much rather they ditch the acceptance of half-time and/or unpaid positions and adhere to APPIC standards en route to APA accred).

But very good points regardless.

Fair point. Even so, that 12% represents the percentage of students who got an APA accredited spot out of those who chose to enter the APPIC match. So, this figure doesn't even include any students who chose to only go for CAPIC sites. A total of 42 students paid the fee to register for the APPIC match, did not choose to withdraw, and did not end up with an APA accredited spot. I find that pretty shocking.

Originally Posted by KillerDiller

Fair point. Even so, that 12% represents the percentage of students who got an APA accredited spot out of those who chose to enter the APPIC match. So, this figure doesn't even include any students who chose to only go for CAPIC sites. A total of 42 students paid the fee to register for the APPIC match, did not choose to withdraw, and did not end up with an APA accredited spot. I find that pretty shocking.

Trust me, I'm with you, and those match rates would give me serious pause. I wasn't trying to justify or sugarcoat the numbers, was just providing one possible contributing factor as to why they might be so much lower than GW's.

North Central has an online program and you can get your doctoral degree in two years or less if you already have a masters degree. I believe you can get your doctoral degree in pastoral counseling, and then you can go to a two week training workshop in Freudian therapy. You do know that Freud would endorse a pastoral counseling degree if he was still alive. Do you smoke cigars? Heck you are half way there to being a psychoanalysis. Daily cocaine use help interpret dreams and your patients will never know you are partaking as you will be sitting behind them. :-)

Originally Posted by 4410

North Central has an online program and you can get your doctoral degree in two years or less if you already have a masters degree. I believe you can get your doctoral degree in pastoral counseling, and then you can go to a two week training workshop in Freudian therapy. You do know that Freud would endorse a pastoral counseling degree if he was still alive. Do you smoke cigars? Heck you are half way there to being a psychoanalysis. Daily cocaine use help interpret dreams and your patients will never know you are partaking as you will be sitting behind them. :-)

...What, if anything, are you talking about?

Originally Posted by KillerDiller

...What, if anything, are you talking about?

Humor----Sarcasm! I was selling my automobile the other day and the finance manager indicated that his wife has a MS in pastoral counseling and she works for a religious non-profit group. I asked if she was licensed and he said she does not need to be licensed because she is working for the Church. She works at a Church in the Dallas area with a very popular minister who has ties to Oprah. I asked him where she got her degree and it was an online counseling program at Liberty University. He then indicated it was not a degree but it was a certificate in pastoral counseling that allows her to do clinical psychology work in the Church.

No harm...I was trying to add humor before everyone castrates the program due to the Match rates with APA accredited internship sites. Is castrate anxiety a Freudian concept? :-) Smiley face means humor.

Originally Posted by 4410

North Central has an online program and you can get your doctoral degree in two years or less if you already have a masters degree. I believe you can get your doctoral degree in pastoral counseling, and then you can go to a two week training workshop in Freudian therapy. You do know that Freud would endorse a pastoral counseling degree if he was still alive. Do you smoke cigars? Heck you are half way there to being a psychoanalysis. Daily cocaine use help interpret dreams and your patients will never know you are partaking as you will be sitting behind them. :-)

haha! love the randomness...cracked me up!

Originally Posted by KillerDiller

Fair point. Even so, that 12% represents the percentage of students who got an APA accredited spot out of those who chose to enter the APPIC match. So, this figure doesn't even include any students who chose to only go for CAPIC sites. A total of 42 students paid the fee to register for the APPIC match, did not choose to withdraw, and did not end up with an APA accredited spot. I find that pretty shocking.

I think you misread the data- the 12% is actually the overall percentage of internship applicants (6/52) who ended up in an APA approved internship. It looks like 23 went through APPIC, with 6 getting APA (26%) and 3 getting APPIC (13%). Still awful numbers, but just want to be sure to present accurate data.

Originally Posted by ClinicalABA

I think you misread the data- the 12% is actually the overall percentage of internship applicants (6/52) who ended up in an APA approved internship. It looks like 23 went through APPIC, with 6 getting APA (26%) and 3 getting APPIC (13%). Still awful numbers, but just want to be sure to present accurate data.

This data can *still* be misleading because programs often steer students to certain paths. The less/not competitive students may not even bother with APPIC, and instead focus on CAPIC or similar 'alternative' paths. Every student should be required to go through the APPIC process, so there can be an Apples to Apples comparison.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

This data can *still* be misleading because programs often steer students to certain paths. The less/not competitive students may not even bother with APPIC, and instead focus on CAPIC or similar 'alternative' paths. Every student should be required to go through the APPIC process, so there can be an Apples to Apples comparison.

Agreed. The fact that what you say probably happened makes this data even scarier. Still- we need to make sure to be accurate with our representations, or we are no better than them.

Originally Posted by ClinicalABA

I think you misread the data- the 12% is actually the overall percentage of internship applicants (6/52) who ended up in an APA approved internship. It looks like 23 went through APPIC, with 6 getting APA (26%) and 3 getting APPIC (13%). Still awful numbers, but just want to be sure to present accurate data.

You're right, my mistake.

One of the faculty in our program graduated from Biola University in California. Reportedly she matched with a site that was APA accredited back in the early 2000's but the Govenator Arnold stopped the funding for many of the State programs that year and her APA accredited internship was no more. She was left without an internship but was able to get a CAPPIC internship that was not funded. She choose to go this direction, and unfortunately had many regrets about this decision but at the time she did not like her options of sticking around another year to reapply for internships. I believe she ended up doing her internship in a privately run correctional facility. She does not have a very high opinion of CAPPIC Internships and reminds us frequently the need to keep your options open and to get many practicum experiences with clinical hours.

Originally Posted by 4410

One of the faculty in our program graduated from Biola University in California. Reportedly she matched with a site that was APA accredited back in the early 2000's but the Govenator Arnold stopped the funding for many of the State programs that year and her APA accredited internship was no more. She was left without an internship but was able to get a CAPPIC internship that was not funded. She choose to go this direction, and unfortunately had many regrets about this decision but at the time she did not like her options of sticking around another year to reapply for internships. I believe she ended up doing her internship in a privately run correctional facility. She does not have a very high opinion of CAPPIC Internships and reminds us frequently the need to keep your options open and to get many practicum experiences with clinical hours.

Sorry to digress, but isn't Biola a religious institution/program? Do you attend a religious program? I kinda assumed that the folks who graduated from religiously affiliated doctoral programs in psych wouldn't have too easy a time getting (mainstream, non-religiously affiliated) academic gigs.

I've gotten several PMs about CSPP, so I'm going to post this.

CSPP-SD, Ph.D.:

Positives: excellent training in: multi-method & multi-purpose assessments, psychotherapy

Negatives: poor match rates (usually due to student motivations to stay in CA...but nonetheless), insane tuition costs, lack of true mentor model unless ur lucky, stigma of the Alliant name as it grows further and further away from the historically respected CSPP.

If I had it to do ovr again, I would go funded or go home.