Best ways to supplement income as an MD?

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Is the stock market/investments the best option? Any consulting type gigs available?

Consulting, expert witness, u can travel and give presentations.... Lots of people need an MDs input... Not just sick people. The question will be more about finding the time to do it or wanting to spend the additional time once you get free time 15 years from now

do any of those options provide a greater income per hour than actually seeing patients would?

I'd imagine that all of them would or at least could.

Depends.....

drug kingpin

Originally Posted by AlexMorph

drug kingpin

Yes.

It's time to finally put that premed chemistry degree to functional use...

Supermodel wife

Originally Posted by SchroedingrsCat

Is the stock market/investments the best option? Any consulting type gigs available?

Stock market/investments are almost certainly not the best option. You'd be well advised to save and invest money, of course, but you should assume that, given that professional traders/investors who have made a career out of investing typically fail to beat the market, you won't do so either. To spend significant amounts of time managing your investments is at best a waste of time, at worst, it will prove a waste of money as well.

Originally Posted by Dr Gerrard

do any of those options provide a greater income per hour than actually seeing patients would?

Some...you can speak for big pharma companies, but the catch is they generally look for docs in academic medicine . It's not uncommon for docs to supplement their salary by 100K+ doing this. I think depending on your field though you could easily make more money by picking up a few shifts over the weekend (like EM) versus traveling and giving speeches, but the latter is sort of like a mini-vacation and doesn't require hard work.

http://studentdoctor.net/2010/12/med...aking-circuit/

Predict the next market bubble and hedge ur investments accordingly...

http://www.scioncapital.com/

Srsly tho, I'm interested in rental real estate, apt complexes, seems to me rental will remain advantageous over owning for a while to come ~ good occupancy rates etc etc. I also like the passive income aspect of such investments. I can probably have a property manager handling leasing etc, an auditor to look over the books, while I focus on eating conch and downing magaritas in key west

spoke with several (separate) attendings on the interview trail who claimed to be making >$300k a year doing expert witness stuff part-time on the side..

no real reason to doubt them.. numbers seem crazy though. It's all about getting your name out there once you have 15 yrs of experience and always being unbiased.. etc etc

I always thought opening a pill mill would be easy cash...

Originally Posted by coldweatherblue

spoke with several (separate) attendings on the interview trail who claimed to be making >$300k a year doing expert witness stuff part-time on the side..

no real reason to doubt them.. numbers seem crazy though. It's all about getting your name out there once you have 15 yrs of experience and always being unbiased.. etc etc

I used to work with an attending specialist at a top 5 med school. He told me $300/hr is a pretty standard expert witness rate. Which would suggest that you'd need to put in ~20 hrs/week year-round to pull in that much. I have trouble imagining how you would find that many cases to testify for.

Originally Posted by phltz

Stock market/investments are almost certainly not the best option. You'd be well advised to save and invest money, of course, but you should assume that, given that professional traders/investors who have made a career out of investing typically fail to beat the market, you won't do so either. To spend significant amounts of time managing your investments is at best a waste of time, at worst, it will prove a waste of money as well.

Yep, this is the truth. Diversify and put money in Vanguard Index Funds otherwise the market will kick your ass. You are not smarter than the market.

See more patients.

Whole heartedly disagree. I play the stock market with some money I saved up before medical school. I average about 20-30% yearly profit with good investing/dividends. It's not a huge sum, but if I'm beating the loan rate (6.8%), I don't see why not continuing to use it. Just gotta be smart and up to date. Doesn't take too much time investment, especially if you diversify your assets in normal savings account, money markets, etc.

Originally Posted by mdeast

Whole heartedly disagree. I play the stock market with some money I saved up before medical school. I average about 20-30% yearly profit with good investing/dividends. It's not a huge sum, but if I'm beating the loan rate (6.8%), I don't see why not continuing to use it. Just gotta be smart and up to date. Doesn't take too much time investment, especially if you diversify your assets in normal savings account, money markets, etc.

The average med student is not capable of hitting those kinds of numbers consistently. I would only do this with money I was willing to gamble away (which is very little at this point )

Originally Posted by Bernoull

Predict the next market bubble and hedge ur investments accordingly...

http://www.scioncapital.com/

Srsly tho, I'm interested in rental real estate, apt complexes, seems to me rental will remain advantageous over owning for a while to come ~ good occupancy rates etc etc. I also like the passive income aspect of such investments. I can probably have a property manager handling leasing etc, an auditor to look over the books, while I focus on eating conch and downing magaritas in key west

My father made good money in commercial real-estate.

Its not as easy as it sounds, and paying someone else to fill the spaces does not work. He was still working 10-hour days after he retired, just managing the properties he already had.

The other issue is that you can lose money as quickly has you make it. You need to make smart investments, which is a gamble.

Find a Chinese or South American herb, make unsubstantiated claims that it cures everything, make some infomertials (be sure to wear your white coat, and don't forget your stethoscope--no, wear two stethoscopes to show that you're totally legit), and voila, you've got a ton of money.

Originally Posted by mdeast

Whole heartedly disagree. I play the stock market with some money I saved up before medical school. I average about 20-30% yearly profit with good investing/dividends. It's not a huge sum, but if I'm beating the loan rate (6.8%), I don't see why not continuing to use it. Just gotta be smart and up to date. Doesn't take too much time investment, especially if you diversify your assets in normal savings account, money markets, etc.

I think this is more a reflection of the market being up 40+% since early 2009 than "being smart and up to date."

In 2008- early 2009, you would be telling people to avoid the market. Enjoy the wave, but don't think you somehow played the game correctly.

Originally Posted by Brachyury

Find a Chinese or South American herb, make unsubstantiated claims that it cures everything, make some infomertials (be sure to wear your white coat, and don't forget your stethoscope--no, wear two stethoscopes to show that you're totally legit), and voila, you've got a ton of money.

Stop stealing my ideas.

Poker

Originally Posted by AlexMorph

drug kingpin

That is real funny on Friday night!!

Originally Posted by Dr Gerrard

do any of those options provide a greater income per hour than actually seeing patients would?

With respect to consulting, when I was in the field, my billable rate was around $225/hour to hospitals. Which is better than most physician hourly rates. Higher if you have that shiny MD degree.

I don't really think consulting as supplemental, as the hourly investment is basically another job. I personally wouldn't want to work on another job after I get off work. I guess it depends on the specific consulting. Professionally, I knew a doctor that basically did Dragon optimization, basically showing up to hospitals, helping them calibrate and optimize Dragon for each physician, and setting up their workflows so that they never needed to type and touch a keyboard. Not a huge time investment and make a decent chunk of money. Finding some sort of niche area like that is probably something I myself would consider.

But, then again, I'd just dump all my money in an indexed fund and just enjoy my personal life instead of working.

Originally Posted by mdeast

Whole heartedly disagree. I play the stock market with some money I saved up before medical school. I average about 20-30% yearly profit with good investing/dividends. It's not a huge sum, but if I'm beating the loan rate (6.8%), I don't see why not continuing to use it. Just gotta be smart and up to date. Doesn't take too much time investment, especially if you diversify your assets in normal savings account, money markets, etc.

You should be a hedge fund manager and make millions if you consistently have those averages. Someone on Wall Street will pay you much more than an MD's salary for numbers like that.

Originally Posted by mdeast

Whole heartedly disagree. I play the stock market with some money I saved up before medical school. I average about 20-30% yearly profit with good investing/dividends. It's not a huge sum, but if I'm beating the loan rate (6.8%), I don't see why not continuing to use it. Just gotta be smart and up to date. Doesn't take too much time investment, especially if you diversify your assets in normal savings account, money markets, etc.

I agree with the guy above me. You think 20-30% in a slow-grow economy is "NOT" a huge sum. Most are ecstatic to get away with 6-7% annual return. If you are doing 20-30% on a regular, yearly basis, you either bought every available bond Ford was selling around the TARP drama, are involved with the devil, have made the world's greatest arbitrage program, give personal loans to HR applicants that then pay up, or are in a ponzi scheme. 20-30% is an unheard of amount of growth. If you are getting those returns, you also have just an immeasurable amount of risk involved.

Numerous studies have shown that people who "invest on their own" are horrible at it, they buy way too high and sell way to low. You are one person, a mutual fund has 1000s of people's worth of research and buying power.

If anyone read this guy's statement on solo investing and seriously considered it, don't. Get a fee-based broker, his know how and access to MANY more investing options are worth the flat fee. Index funds are your friends. Diversification should be your BFF.

Originally Posted by searun

Yep, this is the truth. Diversify and put money in Vanguard Index Funds otherwise the market will kick your ass. You are not smarter than the market.

This guy had it wrapped up a while ago. You will not beat the market. Maybe for 1 or 2 years, but it will come crashing down on you. Physicians are notoriously overconfident with their finances, and they pay dearly for it. Diversify - if you're getting 20-30% returns, you're actually doing it wrong and will probably pay for it shortly.

The hate for the market in here is strong. Stocks are only a gamble for a fool, pick up a book and learn about it if you're seriously considering investing in it, and not go in blind. 20%-30% btw is achievable if you know what you're doing.

Stock market is too efficient. You'll never make anything as an independent investor.

And if you do, you were just lucky. Not skilled.

Originally Posted by BlackHouse

The hate for the market in here is strong. Stocks are only a gamble for a fool, pick up a book and learn about it if you're seriously considering investing in it, and not go in blind. 20%-30% btw is achievable if you know what you're doing.

There is an entire forum called Bogleheads, which pretty much says the exact opposite. If high-powered investors on Wall Street with more education, "insider" knowledge, experience, and connections can't frequently average 30%, then I doubt two independent posters on SDN can. There is also the Efficient Market Hypothesis and other reasons why this return is probably unsustainable. IMO, get a Vanguard Index fund of the total market and ride it out for the next 40 years. Buy and hold, ftw!

Has anyone mentioned oxy rx's to drug seekers?

Originally Posted by Renaissance Man

There is an entire forum called Bogleheads, which pretty much says the exact opposite. If high-powered investors on Wall Street with more education, "insider" knowledge, experience, and connections can't frequently average 30%, then I doubt two independent posters on SDN can. There is also the Efficient Market Hypothesis and other reasons why this return is probably unsustainable. IMO, get a Vanguard Index fund of the total market and ride it out for the next 40 years. Buy and hold, ftw!

This guy has it correct.

Some people just think they're better investors than some of the best financial minds out there (i.e., Jack Bogle, Benjamin Graham, etc.). Just like the study where monkeys went up against "expert" investors in picking stocks. The monkeys won. You can get lucky and beat the market for a year or two but you can't expect those kinds of returns in the long term.

Originally Posted by BlackHouse

The hate for the market in here is strong. Stocks are only a gamble for a fool, pick up a book and learn about it if you're seriously considering investing in it, and not go in blind. 20%-30% btw is achievable if you know what you're doing.

You all believe this because you haven't been investing long. Anyone who's been investing longer than a few years knows that 20-30% is phenomenal. That would be Warren Buffet level of investing, which if you truly believe you can do, you should not be in medicine.

Originally Posted by Renaissance Man

There is an entire forum called Bogleheads, which pretty much says the exact opposite. If high-powered investors on Wall Street with more education, "insider" knowledge, experience, and connections can't frequently average 30%, then I doubt two independent posters on SDN can. There is also the Efficient Market Hypothesis and other reasons why this return is probably unsustainable. IMO, get a Vanguard Index fund of the total market and ride it out for the next 40 years. Buy and hold, ftw!

Originally Posted by jhamaican

I love how pre-meds/med students/physicians always think they are the best at everything.

Buffett averaged 20-30. There is a reason he is famous and you are not. If you can really get that average, go out and also become a billionaire.

Typical SDN know it alls.

Chalk it up to inexperience + a great market since 2009. SDN'ers attribute all their success to their own greatness.

Originally Posted by BlackHouse

The hate for the market in here is strong. Stocks are only a gamble for a fool, pick up a book and learn about it if you're seriously considering investing in it, and not go in blind. 20%-30% btw is achievable if you know what you're doing.

Originally Posted by mdeast

Whole heartedly disagree. I play the stock market with some money I saved up before medical school. I average about 20-30% yearly profit with good investing/dividends. It's not a huge sum, but if I'm beating the loan rate (6.8%), I don't see why not continuing to use it. Just gotta be smart and up to date. Doesn't take too much time investment, especially if you diversify your assets in normal savings account, money markets, etc.

What a badass, you got 20-30% for a few years at most and think you are the man.



I love how pre-meds/med students/physicians always think they are the best at everything.

Buffett averaged 20-30. There is a reason he is famous and you are not. If you can really get that average, go out and also become a billionaire.

Typical SDN know it alls. There are people out there far smarter than you with PhD in mathematics from MIT/Insert elite school here that cannot achieve 20-30% returns. You honestly think you are smarter than all of them? Oh, I forgot, everyone is a genius on the internet.

Originally Posted by BlackHouse

The hate for the market in here is strong. Stocks are only a gamble for a fool, pick up a book and learn about it if you're seriously considering investing in it, and not go in blind. 20%-30% btw is achievable if you know what you're doing.

You guys are way off base on this one!!

The surest way to rake it in as an MD is to go into homeopathic medicine!!!

Take an herb, latinize the name (white rose ---> rosius albugenius ), extract the special active ingredient (aka boil it) and here's the money maker... dilute this concentrated potion towards infinity such that one has to apply quantum mechanics and heisenberg's uncertainty principle to describe the probability that the final dilution contains one molecule of ur active ingredient!!!

For instance here's how one physicist described the 30C homeopathic dilution:

"Physicist Robert L. Park, former executive director of the American Physical Society, has noted that:

since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 [or 1060] molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth".

Now these dilutions seem like hardwork but trust me it pays off! The more dilute ur final potion is, drumroll.... the more POTENT it becomes!!! Watering down = increasing potency. Why is this a great business proposition u might ask , well as u water down ur product (hence reducing production costs) the product become more potent/valuable/$$$$$... And yes, people actually buy these products, so there's an established market!

So u're welcome..

Here's a foolproof money-making machine, just skip that "ethics class" in med school and suppress any scientific training u may have had since:

"...There are challenges in studying homeopathy and controversies regarding the field. This is largely because a number of its key concepts are not consistent with the current understanding of science, particularly chemistry and physics..." ZING!
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy (NIH)

Thinking that you can effectively research stocks a few hours a week to consistently beat the market over the longterm (20+ years) is kind of the epitome of arrogance. For any stock your researching every investment bank/hedgefund, etc. has whole teams of analysts watching that stock and all the related stocks. If a stock is a true bargain, they would buy enough shares to correct the price. Additionally, they are getting their news/information and data days/hours/minutes before its availibe to the the general public, so they are always going to be able to make their moves before you can.

Now if you happen to come across a company making a product in something your an "expert" in and you think the product is revolutionary (maybe your an avid mountainbiker and some new brake system seems amazing to you), and then you invest, then you may be able to beat the wallstreet analysts b/c your not basing your decision on the company's financial fundamentals, but these aren't the sort of situations you plan for, they would just happen.

What is consulting? Who are you trying to advise and what is the main goal?

Originally Posted by Lysinee

What is consulting? Who are you trying to advise and what is the main goal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical...ce_consultants

www.mcn.com

Edit:Also www.nonclinicaljobs.com

Originally Posted by JacobMcCandles

This guy has it correct.

Some people just think they're better investors than some of the best financial minds out there (i.e., Jack Bogle, Benjamin Graham, etc.). Just like the study where monkeys went up against "expert" investors in picking stocks. The monkeys won. You can get lucky and beat the market for a year or two but you can't expect those kinds of returns in the long term.

I thought the monkeys did just as well as the experts. Truth is over 30 years, the index fund will beat 99% of the active managers that are still in exisence. I would go with the monkeys cause they are cheaper than the experts to maintain.

Work more hours.

This is something neat that may be worth a look and I don't think it was mentioned yet: http://freelancemd.com/2nd-md/

Don't forget about Dimensional Funds when you're looking at investment options. Similar to Vanguard - arguably more favorable.

What about the best ways to make extra money as a med student?

Originally Posted by dillydally

What about the best ways to make extra money as a med student?

A job.

Also, research subjects are actually pretty decent gig. Not a big time commitment and they pay okay ($10-15/hour). Sometimes they even give you free drugs!But seriously , I'd probably recommend more behavior studies than the riskier studies.

Originally Posted by Frazier

Extra cash: Tutor, TA, Workstudy (i.e. study while getting paid), blog/websites, be talented and sell your art, personal trainer (if jack'd)...or a "webcam model".

Prob the best way to make money as a med student is to live frugally to minimize your loans (e.g. make money by not spending it)...even saving a couple thousand on COL could end up being big money through the lens of making $12/hr doing XYZ.

I so wish I would have known that work-study was really just getting paid to study. In college work-study meant actually working somewhere (fast food restaurant, etc), but here it's just sitting behind the desk at the library and studying. I didn't sign up for it and then when I saw how easy it was all the work-study funds were already gone. D'oh! Just reapplied for financial aid for MS2, hopefully I get a sweet gig next semester.

And good call about the saving money = making big money.

link2swim06's guide to supplementing income as an MD (or DO)

Step 1: Take something with a "complicated" unknown name (to the general public) that already is know to treat a disease... i.e. benzoyl peroxide for acne

Step 2: Give it a catchy name like "Proactiv" or "Skin Id"

Step 3: Make it look fancy and put words like "doctor", "board certified", and "your name M.D." all over it

Step 4: Infomercials -- Sell a $2 product for $30 with a mandatory monthly subscription

Step 5:

Originally Posted by searun

Diversify and put money in Vanguard Index Funds otherwise the market will kick your ass.

So difficult to choose one since there are so many options with Vanguard. =/

You can be both psychic detective and bounty hunter.

Originally Posted by Ilovewater

So difficult to choose one since there are so many options with Vanguard. =/

Everyone mentions Vanguard because their yearly fees are soooo low. It can be confusing, but the list will be narrowed down based upon your age and stomach for risk. Take a look at bogleheads.org, and also the Vanguard website to see specific fees, minimum account balances, etc. A simple approach would be to start with the Vanguard Target Retirement Funds 20XX.

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion based upon reading a bunch of personal finance books and a few college courses, don't see this as professional advice, haha.