"Help me decide" mega thread

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I have to choose! Help!

Roosevelt is only 20,000 a year and in Chicago which is a city I know and love. There seemed to be a lot of support for the students, and a cohort size of 20 seems just big enough to be able to choose friends, but still have small classes.

DU is like...40 or 50,000. BUT you can do it in only 3 years. Thing is, everyone I talked to said that most people do not, and end up with a forth year. Denver is a cool city, but I don't know anyone there/haven't really been there. Also, the cohort size is a bit worrisome- 40 or so.

What do you guys think? The clock is ticking. I am leaning towards Roosevelt but thought I would ask the vast Internets first...


Anyone have opinions?

I think they're trying to sell you something by saying it can be done in 3 years. I'd go to Roosevelt.

Originally Posted by roubs

I think they're trying to sell you something by saying it can be done in 3 years. I'd go to Roosevelt.

I agree--I'd be hesitant of any doctoral program suggesting that training can regularly be completed in three years. If nothing else, that's likely not enough time to make you competitive with other applicants on the internship trail in terms of clinical experiences and hours.

While $20k/year is still a hefty sum (especially considering it doesn't include living expenses, which in Chicago could very well come out to another $15-20k/year), it is objectively better than $40-50k/year. I don't know that I'd want to go for either, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by IcedBennu

I have to choose! Help!

DU is like...40 or 50,000. BUT you can do it in only 3 years. Thing is, everyone I talked to said that most people do not, and end up with a forth year. Denver is a cool city, but I don't know anyone there/haven't really been there. Also, the cohort size is a bit worrisome- 40 or so.

I can't really say for Roosevelt as I didn't apply there, but I just wanted to correct something, with information I got from the interview at DU. (I actually accepted the offer there)

Assuming you're referring to the DU PsyD program, it cannot be completed in 3 years. My understanding from the DCT is that it takes 3 years of coursework PLUS an internship year minimum, even if you go in with a masters' (i.e. minimum length is 4 years), with some of the students taking 4 years for coursework (i.e. total time 5 years). The admission cohort is approximately 35-40, though the program director did say they wanted to shrink it down (they said they were gonna aim for 35 this year).

The cost is definitely an issue to consider, especially when the estimates are about 50k a year for tuition, but I'm pretty hopeful on the funding (they offer 50% of the cohort non-loan financial aid, according to their website). That said, I was leaning towards the school because of the great surroundings, and grad school environment. Still, it's better to make an informed choice, and I wish you well in your decision!

I'd be very wary of ANY program that says you can do 3+1. Honestly, that just isn't enough time. You will sacrafice something in one or more areas: research, therapy, assessment, etc. I aimed to do 4+1, but I ended up doing 5+1 (not at DU)...and I felt MUCH bette prepared. I can't even imagine trying to cram everything into 3 years. Given the competition in internship....how confident will you be if you have 3 years of training experience and you are going up against students with 4 or 5 years of training experience? I'm not an N=1, but I felt like I really rounded out my CV during my 4th and 5th years.

Originally Posted by CPEnthusiast

I can't really say for Roosevelt as I didn't apply there, but I just wanted to correct something, with information I got from the interview at DU. (I actually accepted the offer there)

Assuming you're referring to the DU PsyD program, it cannot be completed in 3 years. My understanding from the DCT is that it takes 3 years of coursework PLUS an internship year minimum, even if you go in with a masters' (i.e. minimum length is 4 years). The admission cohort is approximately 35-40, though the program director did say they wanted to shrink it down (they said they were gonna aim for 35 this year).

The cost is definitely an issue to consider, especially when the estimates are about 50k a year for tuition, but I'm pretty hopeful on the funding (they offer 50% of the cohort non-loan financial aid, according to their website). That said, I was leaning towards the school because of the great surroundings, and grad school environment. Still, it's better to make an informed choice, and I wish you well in your decision!

I'm sorry, I know all that. I meant a 3+1 vs a 4+1. Should have been more clear. And Roosevelt also gives financial aid. Both are attached to universities. And 35 vs. 20 is still a big difference. The classes are fairly big, I asked when I was there. I agree that Denver is supposed to be cool, but it's a huge price tag, even with funding.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

I'd be very wary of ANY program that says you can do 3+1. Honestly, that just isn't enough time. You will sacrafice something in one or more areas: research, therapy, assessment, etc. I aimed to do 4+1, but I ended up doing 5+1 (not at DU)...and I felt MUCH bette prepared. I can't even imagine trying to cram everything into 3 years. Given the competition in internship....how confident will you be if you have 3 years of training experience and you are going up against students with 4 or 5 years of training experience? I'm not an N=1, but I felt like I really rounded out my CV during my 4th and 5th years.

I did a 4+1 in a PhD program and it was nearly impossible (lots and lots of hours). It probably limited my internship options, but I still got a desirable one.

I would be very wary of a 3+1. But isn't that what Psy.D. programs say they do (since you don't spend a year doing your dissertation)? That's what I remember hearing when I was research graduate schools circa 2004

Smaller and less expensive and a city you know and love where cost of living may be more manageable would seem hard to walk away from. I like DUs affiliated internship option for their students, but it is still larger and more expensive so if Roosevelt has good local resources for internship and an adequate match rate and especially if you want to remain in or near Chicago it seems like an optimal way to go.

Originally Posted by Pragma

I did a 4+1 in a PhD program and it was nearly impossible (lots and lots of hours). It probably limited my internship options, but I still got a desirable one.

I would be very wary of a 3+1. But isn't that what Psy.D. programs say they do (since you don't spend a year doing your dissertation)? That's what I remember hearing when I was research graduate schools circa 2004

Agreed with you and T4C--a 3+1 training model just doesn't seem viable or realistic, especially with the current internship imbalance. I definitely fit in some of my best training and consolidation of previously-learned material during my 4th and 5th years (as well as adding in a few extra papers and posters).

Originally Posted by docma

Smaller and less expensive and a city you know and love where cost of living may be more manageable would seem hard to walk away from. I like DUs affiliated internship option for their students, but it is still larger and more expensive so if Roosevelt has good local resources for internship and an adequate match rate and especially if you want to remain in or near Chicago it seems like an optimal way to go.

Yeah I don't live close to either, I am in Texas. I guess I am clearly leaning towards Roosevelt, but saw a lot of people praising DU and was interested in someone defending it, explaining why they chose it. Also I'd love to know if some people went to or go to Roosevelt, since it's a fairly new program.

I have to agree with the rest. 3+1 just will not make you competitive enough in this internship environment. I went on internship after 3 years and it did limit some of my internship choices as I did not have as many face-to-face hours as some internships required. I still ended up at a solid VA internship, but my program saw the writing on the wall the year after mine and encouraged a move to 4+1 for all current students.However, I am not hearing about outcomes here. The only important stats to me as an undergrad were percent of APA internship placements and graduation rate/mean time to graduation. That is what will tell you the real truth and is on all their websites.

Hey guys,

Does anyone have any feedback concerning the reputations of these three schools? According to the US News 2012 Clinical Psychology Rankings, the schools were rated by deans, faculty, administrators as follows: Wright State University: #139, University of Hartford: #156, University of Denver: #171. I know this should be taken with a grain of salt considering the range of difference is .6 on a 5 point scale in a survey that had a 25% response rate but it's hard not to take it into account. The APA Internship Match Rates for the last six years are as followed: University of Denver: 86.17%, University of Hartford: 84%, Wright State University: 82.72%. These numbers are fairly comparable and the internship sites are for the most part, reputable places. I could go on forever comparing the schools, but I suppose lastly, in terms of average cohort size: University of Hartford: 24, Wright State University: 25, University of Denver: 38.

I am leaning heavily toward Denver in terms of the financial aid they are offering and the location, which also begs another question: How much does where you go to school matter (in terms of career prospects and life outside of class if you get to have one)?

I appreciate any comments, suggestions, sabotage if you are on these waitlists... just kidding (kind of).

I went to DU for my Master's program. There were several things I did not like about the program, one of which was the lack of practicum sites (doctoral and Master's level tended to have the same sites available), and another was the cost. I know two people that went on to complete the Psy.D in the 3+1 format, but neither got an internship in this format (both had to work an extra year to build up their hours).

I currently go to school in Chicago. It has it's own downsides, including cost of living and competiveness due to all the schools in the area. However, I think you could get better/more varied practicum sites at Roosevelt.

So I have gotten into 3 PsyD programs so far: Alliant (cspp) in san diego, Argosy University (in OC), and University of La Verne. I am still waiting to hear back from the Wright Insititute, which is the school I want to go to the most. I didn't particularly like ULV very much because it is a combined clinical-community program and it it highly research oriented. I would very much appreciate any input about these 4 programs. Thanks !

If you do a search of the forums, you should find a good bit of information on CSPP SD and, if memory serves, Wright. There are also general threads on Argosy, I believe, so the OC campus may be specifically mentioned in one of those. Not sure about La Verne.

I've searched. Most of the information I have found is from a few years back. Since Argosy is a newer school, I want the most recent information

I don't know that much has changed one way or the other, although I admittedly have limited/no first- or second-hand information (i.e., I don't attend any of those programs, and don't know anyone who has).

In general, Argosy has a fairly poor reputation natoinally, although this could vary on the regional level. Their match rates (particularly APA internship match rates) aren't exceedingly great, which would personally be reason enough for me to strongly consider looking elsewhere. But that's just me.

I have just been admitted to Wright and am still deciding whether or not to attend. It was the only program I applied to...Perfect for what I'm looking for. Nevertheless, want to make the right decision...

I've heard very good things about Wright. I have a master's degree in clinical psychology and am working in the field. Whoever I've spoken to about Wright has heard of it and has a good impression of it. I have spoken with a lot of faculty there and have been just really impressed.

Let me know if you want to get in touch via e-mail. Good luck!

Originally Posted by AcronymAllergy

I don't know that much has changed one way or the other, although I admittedly have limited/no first- or second-hand information (i.e., I don't attend any of those programs, and don't know anyone who has).

In general, Argosy has a fairly poor reputation natoinally, although this could vary on the regional level. Their match rates (particularly APA internship match rates) aren't exceedingly great, which would personally be reason enough for me to strongly consider looking elsewhere. But that's just me.

This is misinformation as Argosy has excellent clinical psychology PsyD programs and most are APA accredited. Now their other programs such as the EdD in counselor education is online and many get the two programs mixed up. They have different faculty and the PsyD clinical psychology does not have any courses that are online courses. The EdD in counselor education is for LPC's wanting to continue towards their doctorate but it is not a program for doctorate licensure in psychology but it is for licensure at the masters level or LPC level. Graduates of Argosy University programs in clinical psychology are under a branch of Argosy and most of the schools have the name from the State they are located in. Argosy is an umbrella for the professional schools and they have names such as Arizona School of Professional Psychology, Texas School of Professional Psychology, Georgia School of Professional Psychology, Washington D.C School of Professional Psychology, Minnesota School of Professional Psychology. Their students get APA accredited internships and many work for the VA and Regional Hospitals. I believe the Orange County Campus is one of the newer professional schools in the Argosy System. Each professional school is considered a separate program and they are normally located in large urban areas to meet the needs for shortage of qualified psychologists in these areas that work with undeserved populations.

Many of the Argosy University professional school of psychology graduates are leaders in the field of psychology serving as clinical directors of training programs and large mental health facility. I believe the VA has a large number of Argosy Universities graduates working nation wide in VA facilities. If you look through most directories of medical centers and other highly respected mental health programs you will find a good number of PsyD psychologists from Argosy working at these facilities. The Hawaii School of Professional Psychology has a postdoctoral program in clinical psychopharmacology and is well respected among these programs.

I have worked with many psychologist from the Alliant University system and some of the faculty in my program are graduates from Alliant. Most of the Alliant programs are similar to Argosy in that they are APA accredited. Their graduates attend high quality internships and hold leadership positions in many types of facilities. They also have a well respected post doctoral program in clinical psychopharmacology. You can't make a poor choice from either of these two systems of professional schools. I have never heard of the University of LaVerne and I do not know much about the Wright Institute, so I don't have an opinion on these two schools. From review of their websites, both programs are APA accredited.

Originally Posted by 4410

This is misinformation as Argosy has excellent clinical psychology PsyD programs and most are APA accredited. Now their other programs such as the EdD in counselor education is online and many get the two programs mixed up. They have different faculty and the PsyD clinical psychology does not have any courses that are online courses. The EdD in counselor education is for LPC's wanting to continue towards their doctorate but it is not a program for doctorate licensure in psychology but it is for licensure at the masters level or LPC level. Graduates of Argosy University programs in clinical psychology are under a branch of Argosy and most of the schools have the name from the State they are located in. Argosy is an umbrella for the professional schools and they have names such as Arizona School of Professional Psychology, Texas School of Professional Psychology, Georgia School of Professional Psychology, Washington D.C School of Professional Psychology, Minnesota School of Professional Psychology. Their students get APA accredited internships and many work for the VA and Regional Hospitals. I believe the Orange County Campus is one of the newer professional schools in the Argosy System. Each professional school is considered a separate program and they are normally located in large urban areas to meet the needs for shortage of qualified psychologists in these areas that work with undeserved populations.

Many of the Argosy University professional school of psychology graduates are leaders in the field of psychology serving as clinical directors of training programs and large mental health facility. I believe the VA has a large number of Argosy Universities graduates working nation wide in VA facilities. If you look through most directories of medical centers and other highly respected mental health programs you will find a good number of PsyD psychologists from Argosy working at these facilities. The Hawaii School of Professional Psychology has a postdoctoral program in clinical psychopharmacology and is well respected among these programs.

I have worked with many psychologist from the Alliant University system and some of the faculty in my program are graduates from Alliant. Most of the Alliant programs are similar to Argosy in that they are APA accredited. Their graduates attend high quality internships and hold leadership positions in many types of facilities. They also have a well respected post doctoral program in clinical psychopharmacology. You can't make a poor choice from either of these two systems of professional schools. I have never heard of the University of LaVerne and I do not know much about the Wright Institute, so I don't have an opinion on these two schools. From review of their websites, both programs are APA accredited.

Mind you, I never mentioned that Argosy was an online program, or that it wasn't APA accredited. I simply said that in general, and in my experience/based on what I've heard others say, it has a fairly poor reputation nationally.

I also didn't say that some of Argosy's students don't land accredited internships or eventually land in various employment positions; anytime you have campuses churning out 30, 40, 50, or 60+ students per year, some of them are going to do well (and would have done well regardless of where they attended school). But both Argosy and Alliant's internship match numbers aren't the best overall, and can vary widely by campus. Some (like Argosy Atlanta and Honolulu) have match rates at or above national averages, while others (Argosy Dallas, SF, and Twin Cities; nearly all of Alliant's campuses) are consistently below the national average. Take from that what you will.

Whether or not their programs are "excellent" is an individual and somewhat subjective judgment call. Personally, based on the objective data we do have, I wouldn't call them that (at least on a national level; again, particularly with Argosy, there's some significant variability across campuses it would seem), but that's just my opinion.

I would call 4410's post, "spin."

Argosy is owned by Goldman Sachs. The purpose of its existence is to make money. Argosy advertises and has recruiters that actively try to sign students. Argosy looks and acts like a business. Overall, they do have a poor reputation within the field. What you have there are students who score below the mean average clin psych student on every objective criteria on entrance and after graduation. That includes incoming GPA and GRE scores, outgoing EPPP scores (the psychology licensing exam), and APA internship placement (not getting this can severely limit job opportunities). Further, they provide these mediocre outcomes at a financial cost that places its students in the top 1% of student debt in the country (across all students, not just psych) and also in the top tier of psychology student debt. To me the message is pretty clear, Argosy allows mediocre students to buy in to doctoral level psychology at a steep price so that they may generate profit.

May I ask, Psychkid, why are you not considering Ph.D. programs?

To the OP: If there is one thing that can get you in trouble in this field, it is lack of critical thinking. Obviously, 4410's post (not just in this thread) represents a lack of critical thinking and a lack of (purposeful omission of?) the use of actual outcome data. He speculates well, he uses anecdotes well, but he aint so good at providing actual evidence...for anything. You should look at outcome data, not outcome ancedotes. That is, some people, and I don't know why, like to focus on the "cream of the crop phenomena" as evidence for program quality. Modal outcomes. I repeat..modal outcomes. You are the mode. You are, most likely, not the special snow flake in the bunch (doesn't matter what your parents have told you..lol). Think statistics and probabilities. If there is one time in your life to think pragmatically and realistically, it when you are weighing a 150k pricetag, right?

PS: A more relevant anedecdote, if we want to use such things, would examine how is the program's training viewed by other psychologists? I would also add that applicants from BOTH Argosy and the Wright Institute were automatically tossed by my internship program during the match cycle this year (if you are unaware of the match debacle or how your programs perform in this process every year, YOU NEED TO DO THIS). This had to do with a multitude of factors such as lack of rigor in the curriculum, high acceptance rates, and large cohorts, lots of practica at private practices (red flag), and a general lack of scholarly productivity among both faculty and students alike. I am not at a particularly prestigious hospital either, to say the least. So make of that what you will...

PPS: There is NO shortage of doctoral-level psychologists in major urban areas in this country. You might want to listen to people who are actually in the job market (myself and others) regarding this point.

Originally Posted by erg923

To the OP: If there is one thing that can get you in trouble in this field, it is lack of critical thinking. Obviously, 4410's post (not just in this thread) represent this this mass. He speculates well, he uses anecdotes well, but he aint so good at providing actual evidence...for anything. Some people, and I don't know why, like to ficus on the "cream of the crop phenomena" as evidence for program quality. Modal outcomes. I repeat..modal outcomes You are the mode. You are, most likely, not the special snow flake in the bunch (doesn't matter what your parents have told you..lol). Think statistics and probabilities. If there is one time in your life to think pragmatically and realistically, it when you are weighing a 150k pricetag, right?

PS: I would also add that applicants from BOTH Argosy and the Wright Institute were automatically tossed by my internship program during the match cycle this year (if you are unaware of the match debacle or how your programs perform in this process every year, YOU NEED TO DO THIS). This had to do with a multitude of factors such as lack of rigor in the curriculum, high acceptance rates, and large cohorts, lots of practica at private practices (red flag), and a general lack of scholarly productivity among both faculty and students alike. I am not at a particularly prestigious hospital either, to say the least. So make of that what you will...

PPS: There is NO shortage of doctoral-level psychologists in major urban areas in this country. You might want to listen to people who are actually in the job market (myself and others) regarding this point.

To provide an anecdote of my own (hah), I've heard of the same thing happening at sites other than erg's. My own, a fairly well-known and reputable med school/VA consortium in the south, has multiple faculty who voice concerns about the quality of training (and, subsequently, the quality of the CVs) of the modal individual coming out of these programs.

And the APPIC match rate data suggests that my and erg's anecdotal experiences seem to generalize to the internship selection process as a whole.

Originally Posted by AcronymAllergy

To provide an anecdote of my own (hah), I've heard of the same thing happening at sites other than erg's. My own, a fairly well-known and reputable med school/VA consortium in the south, has multiple faculty who voice concerns about the quality of training (and, subsequently, the quality of the CVs) of the modal individual coming out of these programs.

And the APPIC match rate data suggests that my and erg's anecdotal experiences seem to generalize to the internship selection process as a whole.

While not quite so explicitly, a similar practice occurred at my internship site. The number of applications is so high that they look for good heuristics to narrow it down anyways. That + bias against programs = poor matching outcomes.

I think it is also worth noting that Argosy seems to be the bottom of the barrel when it comes to PsyD programs. I agree that it is not looked upon favorably by colleagues in the field--there is the generic/franchised name that represents a turn to corporate standards and away from the individual integrity of each professional school that it acquired. In the big city I live in, it is seen as a sinking ship in many ways. There are some redeeming factors in any program, and Argosy is very large with specialty workshops and such (some of which are based on market demand and not evidence) so it appeals to many. The advertising helps. If I were to choose a PsyD program, I would go to one that is unique and offers opportunities for unique research in my interest area in addition to the clinical curriculum. (I would also scroll to the top of the SDN forums and see what schools are advertising! Guess what? That's where your tuition will go...) If this was not possible, I would stick with a masters degree in counseling psych or clinical psych that allowed me to get licensed.

Regarding La Varne being too research oriented for you: Er, um, if the below is too research focused for you, I really dont think you should be a psycholgist. Period. Go into social work or something.

http://laverne.edu/catalog/program/p...of-psychology/

Training Model

ULV’s Psy.D. in Clinical-Community Psychology is accredited by the American Psychological Association. It follows the scholar practitioner and competency-based models and is one of few programs in the nation where students learn interactively about the social, interpersonal, and intrapersonal factors that influence social justice and affect people’s well being and quality of life. Students learn to think about psychological factors at the individual, family, and community levels. The Psy.D. program is designed to prepare students as clinical community psychologists to provide comprehensive prevention and community interventions and psychotherapeutic and psychodiagnostic services, to assume administrative and supervisory positions in mental health and/or community programs, and to provide professional psychological consultation.The program infuses multicultural competencies into its curriculum and trains students in the theories and concepts of cultural and individual diversity and in their application to the practice of professional psychology. It also trains students to be consumers of research and base their work on the foundation of scientific evidence and scholarly works.

Originally Posted by erg923

It follows the scholar practitioner and competency-based models and is one of few programs in the nation where students learn interactively about the social, interpersonal, and intrapersonal factors that influence social justice and affect people’s well being and quality of life. Students learn to think about psychological factors at the individual, family, and community levels.

This is really where the field is headed--giving true lip service to social justice and community-based interventions is a good sign. The program is astronomically expensive, from what I remember, and I think it also has a religious spin, but in terms of PsyD programs, this is an interesting angle. Of all of the schools the OP mentioned, this seems like the best choice.

Originally Posted by AcronymAllergy

Mind you, I never mentioned that Argosy was an online program, or that it wasn't APA accredited. I simply said that in general, and in my experience/based on what I've heard others say, it has a fairly poor reputation nationally.

I also didn't say that some of Argosy's students don't land accredited internships or eventually land in various employment positions; anytime you have campuses churning out 30, 40, 50, or 60+ students per year, some of them are going to do well (and would have done well regardless of where they attended school). But both Argosy and Alliant's internship match numbers aren't the best overall, and can vary widely by campus. Some (like Argosy Atlanta and Honolulu) have match rates at or above national averages, while others (Argosy Dallas, SF, and Twin Cities; nearly all of Alliant's campuses) are consistently below the national average. Take from that what you will.

Whether or not their programs are "excellent" is an individual and somewhat subjective judgment call. Personally, based on the objective data we do have, I wouldn't call them that (at least on a national level; again, particularly with Argosy, there's some significant variability across campuses it would seem), but that's just my opinion.

Each of the professional schools under the Argosy systems are stand alone programs under the Argosy umbrella. Most of the Professional Schools are APA accredited and the ones that are not is mostly due to being newer schools in the Argosy System. It does not help promote the field of psychology when people base information on hearsay. A small group of students filed a class action lawsuit three or four years ago against the Texas School of Professional Psychology with media reports and a report on Dateline. Now everyone based on the lawsuit of these 15 students has developed a slanderous negative impression of all of the professional schools under the Argosy system. This is so unfair to the other programs, students, faculty and others attending all of the professional schools under the Argosy System.

Every program has had students who were unhappy for whatever reason and students come and go as well as faculty who are unhappy come and go but normally it does not get publicized in the media. I attend one of the professional schools under the Argosy system and it is far from being a diploma mill. Our match rate from prior years since 2008 when we had our first three graduates has been 84%. Our admission classes ranges from 15-30 students per year and the most recent class had 10 students. To my knowledge all of our graduates the past three years have passed the EPPP and are now licensed. My guess from looking at the CRP's in the library that there are around 30 students who have graduated the last four years.

As is the case with any new program development, the school I attend went through changes in the early years but now it has a solid foundation and is on track to become APA accredited..

The tuition is high but most of us have student loans. Some have funding from other sources, especially many of the minority students that they do not have to pay back. Some of the students are in the Army reserves or active military and receive funding from the military for their program. I do not know how anybody can say that a program is low quality due to having a high tuition as from my perspective it is often the other way around. Programs that provide waivers and TA and RA is somehow given credibility that these are high quality programs. Argosy has students who receive tuition waivers, and they are TA and RA as well, as we have undergraduate psychology and education programs and upper level students frequently teach assessment lab sections.

Most of the students in my cohort already had MS degrees from major universities including OU, UT, SMU, TAMU, UH, University of Colorado, UTSW, TT, OSU, LSU, University of Illinois, Depaul University, Northwestern University and University of Arkansas, etc... They have completed MS research oriented programs and now they primarily want the specific clinical psychology training to further their career as a licensed clinical psychologists.

Originally Posted by 4410

Each of the professional schools under the Argosy systems are stand alone programs under the Argosy umbrella. Most of the Professional Schools are APA accredited and the ones that are not is mostly due to being newer schools in the Argosy System. It does not help promote the field of psychology when people base information on hearsay. A small group of students filed a class action lawsuit three or four years ago against the Texas School of Professional Psychology with media reports and a report on Dateline. Now everyone based on the lawsuit of these 15 students has developed a slanderous negative impression of all of the professional schools under the Argosy system. This is so unfair to the other programs, students, faculty and others attending all of the professional schools under the Argosy System.

Every program has had students who were unhappy for whatever reason and students come and go as well as faculty who are unhappy come and go but normally it does not get publicized in the media. I attend one of the professional schools under the Argosy system and it is far from being a diploma mill. Our match rate from prior years since 2008 when we had our first three graduates has been 84%. Our admission classes ranges from 15-30 students per year and the most recent class had 10 students. To my knowledge all of our graduates the past three years have passed the EPPP and are now licensed. My guess from looking at the CRP's in the library that there are around 30 students who have graduated the last four years.

As is the case with any new program development, the school I attend went through changes in the early years but now it has a solid foundation and is on track to become APA accredited..

The tuition is high but most of us have student loans. Some have funding from other sources, especially many of the minority students that they do not have to pay back. Some of the students are in the Army reserves or active military and receive funding from the military for their program. I do not know how anybody can say that a program is low quality due to having a high tuition as from my perspective it is often the other way around. Program that provide waivers and TA and RA is somehow given credibility that these are high quality programs. Argosy has students who receive TA and RA as well as we have undergraduate psychology and education programs and upper level students frequently teach assessment lab sections.

Most of the students in my cohort have MS degrees from major universities including OU, UT, SMU, TAMU, UH, University of Colorado, UTSW, TT, OSU, LSU, University of Arkansas, etc... They have completed research and now they primarily want the specific clinical psychology training to further their career as a licensed clinical psychologists.

With all due respect, I never heard of that media report. But I heard negative comments about Argosy in general (from multiple psychologists) for years prior to that, mostly concerned with the overall business model of the system, large class sizes, and low admission standards. I actually visited one of their campuses when I was researching schools and I was surpised that they were the only place not requiring me to take the GRE.

Before this thread gets derailed with 4410's misinformation, I'd like to know the OP's career interests. If your interests are in therapy (not assessment or research), I'd strongly consider whether any of those schools are the best route for you. Those programs will cost you considerable time and money not necessary to conduct therapy.

The hits in reputation that Argosy and most Alliant universities take are substantial and supported by empirical data on internship match rates, acceptance rates, and student debt (among other issues), no matter what one single FSPP student (4410) would like to otherwise claim.

Originally Posted by Pragma

With all due respect, I never heard of that media report. But I heard negative comments about Argosy in general (from multiple psychologists) for years prior to that, mostly concerned with the overall business model of the system, large class sizes, and low admission standards. I actually visited one of their campuses when I was researching schools and I was surpised that they were the only place not requiring me to take the GRE.

I believe GRE's is optional as most students already have the MS degree and have worked in the field a number of years, similar to myself. If you do not have acceptable GRE scores, I believe they have an optional admission route where your first year you may have to take some undergraduate courses. We have had students transfer from PhD programs because they were unhappy with the clinical training they were receiving and they were spending many hours doing research with professors or teaching introductory psychology courses. A number of students already have completed their PhD and have gone through re-specialization program with Argosy to have clinical training practicums and internship training. We have had students who have MS degrees in biology, geology and a number of nurses and physician assistants have completed the PsyD program.

Many of the schools have a forensic sub specialty and a number of practicing attorneys have completed the program due to this specialization. I may be biased from being a student in one of the professional schools, but the quality of education and curriculum is very high at my program and we have nationally recognized faculty that are leaders with the Board of Psychology and APA and State Psychological Associations.

We had a very successful Match this year with everyone being selected in phase I and II. I don't believe you can say a program is low quality due to Match rate, especially since there is a shortage of internships sites nationally. Even APA accredited programs are having students who don't Match. The whole Match statistics are very misleading as many programs require their students to withdraw from the Match if they don't have interviews with APA accredited sites. Because they withdraw these programs keep their match rate higher whereas many of the professional schools do not let their student withdraw and if they do not match then this hurts their percentage rate of who matched. Many professional school students get high quality internships locally that do not participate in the APPIC process.

Originally Posted by 4410

Each of the professional schools under the Argosy systems are stand alone programs under the Argosy umbrella. Most of the Professional Schools are APA accredited and the ones that are not is mostly due to being newer schools in the Argosy System. It does not help promote the field of psychology when people base information on hearsay. A small group of students filed a class action lawsuit three or four years ago against the Texas School of Professional Psychology with media reports and a report on Dateline. Now everyone based on the lawsuit of these 15 students has developed a slanderous negative impression of all of the professional schools under the Argosy system. This is so unfair to the other programs, students, faculty and others attending all of the professional schools under the Argosy System.

Every program has had students who were unhappy for whatever reason and students come and go as well as faculty who are unhappy come and go but normally it does not get publicized in the media. I attend one of the professional schools under the Argosy system and it is far from being a diploma mill. Our match rate from prior years since 2008 when we had our first three graduates has been 84%. Our admission classes ranges from 15-30 students per year and the most recent class had 10 students. To my knowledge all of our graduates the past three years have passed the EPPP and are now licensed. My guess from looking at the CRP's in the library that there are around 30 students who have graduated the last four years.

As is the case with any new program development, the school I attend went through changes in the early years but now it has a solid foundation and is on track to become APA accredited..

The tuition is high but most of us have student loans. Some have funding from other sources, especially many of the minority students that they do not have to pay back. Some of the students are in the Army reserves or active military and receive funding from the military for their program. I do not know how anybody can say that a program is low quality due to having a high tuition as from my perspective it is often the other way around. Programs that provide waivers and TA and RA is somehow given credibility that these are high quality programs. Argosy has students who receive tuition waivers, and they are TA and RA as well, as we have undergraduate psychology and education programs and upper level students frequently teach assessment lab sections.

Most of the students in my cohort already had MS degrees from major universities including OU, UT, SMU, TAMU, UH, University of Colorado, UTSW, TT, OSU, LSU, University of Illinois, Depaul University, Northwestern University and University of Arkansas, etc... They have completed MS research oriented programs and now they primarily want the specific clinical psychology training to further their career as a licensed clinical psychologists.

Just wanted to say that 15 students is NOT a small amount, thats as large or larger than many entire cohort sizes. But... since many Argosy campuses have tremendously large cohort sizes (if you Google their outcomes you'll see that some are in the 70's and above for one campus!) that may seem like a small number to some.

Yes, people have complaints and grievances at times... but how often do those problems escalate to the level of class action lawsuit and a national expose'?!?

Originally Posted by 4410

We had a very successful Match this year with everyone being selected in phase I and II. I don't believe you can say a program is low quality due to Match rate, especially since there is a shortage of internships sites nationally.

For the OP: take note of this important detail from another thread...

Originally Posted by 4410

Rarely if ever do we match with APA accredited sites and this is true for this year as non of us matched with APA accredited sites.

Originally Posted by 4410

I don't believe you can say a program is low quality due to Match rate

Wait, what?

If a program has a match rate at something like 30% (just throwing that percentage out there).. you could most certainly blame the programs training.

The tuition is high but most of us have student loans.

I think that should read AND most of us have student loans.

Some have funding from other sources, especially many of the minority students that they do not have to pay back.

So, someone else (e.g., taxpayers) is paying the executives, shareholders, goldman sachs employees, and faculty.

Some of the students are in the Army reserves or active military and receive funding from the military for their program.

Yes, that's a big scandal in the news right now. The for profit system has captured a huge percentage of the government loan money from the gi bill. Great marketing success for them.

I do not know how anybody can say that a program is low quality due to having a high tuition as from my perspective it is often the other way around.

Doesn't work that way in graduate education. Average debt now ~150K. . . for an average clin psych income of 60K a year. Unless you can pawn that off on the taxpayers, that math is very unfavorable. Argosy exists because of publicly subsidized loan money. It exists for profit; it is a business. The execs do not care about their impact on the field, APA standards, or the debt level of their graduates. They care about getting money. And, they've been very successful at that.

Programs that provide waivers and TA and RA is somehow given credibility that these are high quality programs. Argosy has students who receive tuition waivers, and they are TA and RA as well,

Yes? So, you have students who have 100% tuition waivers at your program? How many?

Originally Posted by NotTheHoff

For the OP: take note of this important detail from another thread...

And no APA internship means: you are ineligle for many post-docs (which are now nearly a necessity) and many jobs. You will be forever ineligble for VA employment, BOP employment, and DOD employment, have extra hurdles in licensing process, and a few remaining states (Georgia) where you could not be licensed at all.

We had a very successful Match this year with everyone being selected in phase I and II.

Did anyone go to an APA accredited site?

The whole Match statistics are very misleading as many programs require their students to withdraw from the Match if they don't have interviews with APA accredited sites. Because they withdraw these programs keep their match rate higher whereas many of the professional schools do not let their student withdraw and if they do not match then this hurts their percentage rate of who matched.

You think that's the reason for the match imbalance and the impression that more professional school students don't match to APA accredited internships than PhD students? Does that even sound logical when you read it back to yourself?

Originally Posted by 4410

The whole Match statistics are very misleading as many programs require their students to withdraw from the Match if they don't have interviews with APA accredited sites. Because they withdraw these programs keep their match rate higher whereas many of the professional schools do not let their student withdraw and if they do not match then this hurts their percentage rate of who matched. Many professional school students get high quality internships locally that do not participate in the APPIC process.

This is not true, as the match statistics for programs include the numbers and proportion of students who withdrew. Also, is there any evidence that supports the idea that professional schools disallow this practice of withdrawing to any greater degree than other programs?

Originally Posted by 4410

I believe GRE's is optional as most students already have the MS degree and have worked in the field a number of years, similar to myself. If you do not have acceptable GRE scores, I believe they have an optional admission route where your first year you may have to take some undergraduate courses.

I'll leave the rest alone as others are addressing the ridiculous assertions with no factual basis.

This was not true at all when I was looking at schools. They loved explaining how you didn't have to take the GRE to get in. That included the master's program that they had built in to the Psy.D....most students were right out of undergrad.

Originally Posted by NotTheHoff

For the OP: take note of this important detail from another thread...

This does not mean that the internships are not of high quality. There are only 52% of the internships that are APA accredited and many of the professional schools with APA accreditation under the Argosy system match with APA accredited sites. My program is in the process of applying for APA accreditation so we rarely match with APA accredited internships. However, we have had interns match with the FBP, VA, and a number of APA accredited sites during the first three years that we had students applying for internship. The past year and this year, I believe we have not matched with APA accredited sites.

Originally Posted by 4410

My program is in the process of applying for APA accreditation so we rarely match with APA accredited internships. However, we have had interns match with the FBP, VA, and a number of APA accredited sites during the first three years that we had students applying for internship. The past year and this year, I believe we have not matched with APA accredited sites.

NO, You didnt...(and we have been over this before)

The VHA requires interns to come from APA accredited programs (so does the BOP). This is nationally set and individual sites have no way around this. See below.

http://www.psychologytraining.va.gov/eligibility.asp


"Internship applicants must meet the following criteria to be considered for any VA Psychology Internship Program:

1. Doctoral student in good standing at an APA-accredited graduate program in psychology program or in an APA approved respecialization training program in Clinical or Counseling Psychology
2. Approved for internship status by graduate program training director
3. U.S. citizenship

To be eligible for employment as a VA Psychologist, a person must be a U.S. citizen and must have completed an APA-accredited graduate program in psychology AND must have completed an APA-accredited internship in Psychology, with the specialty area of the degree consistent with the assignment for which the applicant is to be employed. The only exception is for those who complete a new VA internship that is not yet accredited."

Originally Posted by erg923

NO, You didnt...(and we have been over this before)

The VHA requires interns to come from APA accredited programs (so does the BOP). This is nationally set and individual sites have no way around this. See below.

http://www.psychologytraining.va.gov/eligibility.asp


"Internship applicants must meet the following criteria to be considered for any VA Psychology Internship Program:

1. Doctoral student in good standing at an APA-accredited graduate program in psychology program or in an APA approved respecialization training program in Clinical or Counseling Psychology
2. Approved for internship status by graduate program training director
3. U.S. citizenship

To be eligible for employment as a VA Psychologist, a person must be a U.S. citizen and must have completed an APA-accredited graduate program in psychology AND must have completed an APA-accredited internship in Psychology, with the specialty area of the degree consistent with the assignment for which the applicant is to be employed. The only exception is for those who complete a new VA internship that is not yet accredited."

Yes....I know we have been over this. One of our students acquired a VA internship and two of our students acquired FBOP internships and the last I heard the one student was working for the VA and the other two were working for the FBOP. VA has a good number of psychologists from PsyD professional schools working at their facilities.

Originally Posted by erg923

NO, You didnt...(and we have been over this before)

The VHA requires interns to come from APA accredited programs (so does the BOP). This is nationally set and individual sites have no way around this. See below.

http://www.psychologytraining.va.gov/eligibility.asp



"Internship applicants must meet the following criteria to be considered for any VA Psychology Internship Program:

1. Doctoral student in good standing at an APA-accredited graduate program in psychology program or in an APA approved respecialization training program in Clinical or Counseling Psychology
2. Approved for internship status by graduate program training director
3. U.S. citizenship

To be eligible for employment as a VA Psychologist, a person must be a U.S. citizen and must have completed an APA-accredited graduate program in psychology AND must have completed an APA-accredited internship in Psychology, with the specialty area of the degree consistent with the assignment for which the applicant is to be employed. The only exception is for those who complete a new VA internship that is not yet accredited."

This. The programs may have had applicants match at APA-accredited sites (non-accredited programs sometimes do, as it's required to actually obtain accreditation), but students from non-accredited programs cannot match to VA/BOP sites.

Originally Posted by 4410

Yes....I know we have been over this. One of our students acquired a VA internship and two of our students acquired FBOP internships and the last I heard the one student was working for the VA and the other two were working for the FBOP. VA has a good number of psychologists from PsyD professional schools working at their facilities.

This just isn't possible, unless the students transferred to a different program and graduated from that program instead of your site. Again, VA/BOP requires that you attend an APA-accredited doctoral program both for internship and employment.

Edit: The only way I could see this happening is that if these students matched to a consortium, and were funded by the non-VA/non-BOP entity; in that case, it's possible, although then they technically didn't match to a VA specifically.

As for employment, again, it's essentially (from everything I've read and heard) impossible to work for the VHA or BOP without APA-accreditation at both the doctoral and internship levels. Either these individuals are being disingenuous, or they're working as consultants for those organizations without being employed by them.

Originally Posted by 4410

Yes....I know we have been over this. One of our students acquired a VA internship and two of our students acquired FBOP internships and the last I heard the one student was working for the VA and the other two were working for the FBOP.

Let us all understand what you're claiming here. The VA and BOP require interns to have come from APA accredited programs Your program is NOT APA but you have placed mutiple people at these places anyway? So, they bypassed this national requirements how...? They wrote a petition to Eric himself?

Come on pal, it time to man up with this one.

Originally Posted by erg923

Let us all understand what you're claiming here. The VA and BOP require interns to have come from APA acredited programs Your program is NOT APA but you have palced mutiple people at these places anyway? So, they bypassed this national requirements how...? They wrote a petition to Eric himself?

Come on pal, it time to man up with this one.

Seriously- you're giving him legitimacy by responding directly to him. Anybody who still believes the information he presents, deserves what they get, whether it be Argosy, Cappella, etc.

You seem like a research guided fellow- might I suggest you consult the following for some guidance in dealing with these post: http://www.jeabjaba.org/abstracts/Ja...36/_36-259.HTM
Though it's a different clinical population (I assume?), I think the extinction component has a lot to offer for this current situation. (Please note that this study employs what 4410 calls "single cell" research design!)

Person A: The psychologists from my program are the highest quality. Stop misinforming people.
Person B: What are you basing this on?
Person A: People from my program have won Nobel Prizes in psychology. This does not happen in Ph.D. programs.
Person B: What are you talking about? Nobel Prizes are not awarded in psychology.
Person A: Someone in my program got a Nobel Prize for being the highest quality psychologist. People in Ph.D. programs do not get Nobel Prizes in clinical psychology because they are too busy doing meaningless research. About half of Ph.D. students admit this is a major problem.
Person B: I'm too shocked by your erroneous statements to comment on the last part, but you are mistaken on the first part. Here's the list of all Nobel Prizes awarded, none of which pertain to psychology: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...all/index.html
Person A: What can I tell you? She got a Nobel Prize for psychology.

Originally Posted by NotTheHoff

Person A: The psychologists from my program are the highest quality. Stop misinforming people.
Person B: What are you basing this on?
Person A: People from my program have won Nobel Prizes in psychology. This does not happen in Ph.D. programs.
Person B: What are you talking about? Nobel Prizes are not awarded in psychology.
Person A: Someone in my program got a Nobel Prize for being the highest quality psychologist. People in Ph.D. programs do not get Nobel Prizes in clinical psychology because they are too busy doing meaningless research. About half of Ph.D. students admit this is a major problem.
Person B: I'm too shocked by your erroneous statements to comment on the last part, but you are mistaken on the first part. Here's the list of all Nobel Prizes awarded, none of which pertain to psychology: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...all/index.html
Person A: What can I tell you? She got a Nobel Prize for psychology.

Great, now I'm going to spend two hours perusing prior Nobel Prize winners once I get home. Thanks for destroying any chance of me working on my dissertation today...

Originally Posted by NotTheHoff

Person A: The psychologists from my program are the highest quality. Stop misinforming people.
Person B: What are you basing this on?
Person A: People from my program have won Nobel Prizes in psychology. This does not happen in Ph.D. programs.
Person B: What are you talking about? Nobel Prizes are not awarded in psychology.
Person A: Someone in my program got a Nobel Prize for being the highest quality psychologist. People in Ph.D. programs do not get Nobel Prizes in clinical psychology because they are too busy doing meaningless research. About half of Ph.D. students admit this is a major problem.
Person B: I'm too shocked by your erroneous statements to comment on the last part, but you are mistaken on the first part. Here's the list of all Nobel Prizes awarded, none of which pertain to psychology: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...all/index.html
Person A: What can I tell you? She got a Nobel Prize for psychology.

Originally Posted by 4410

Yes....I know we have been over this. One of our students acquired a VA internship and two of our students acquired FBOP internships and the last I heard the one student was working for the VA and the other two were working for the FBOP. VA has a good number of psychologists from PsyD professional schools working at their facilities.

The more you talk using the collective "we" when referring to Argosy, the more you confirm that you are a recruiter/PR person.