"Would you do it again?" - nonacademics

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I know, and as you can see I didn't ridicule that poster earlier. I just wanted to defend what I said originally, as that was part of the point that you made.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to be political. Paul Krugman and I have almost opposite political beliefs, too.

Originally Posted by cara susanna

I know, and as you can see I didn't ridicule that poster earlier. I just wanted to defend what I said originally, as that was part of the point that you made.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to be political. Paul Krugman and I have almost opposite political beliefs, too.

I quoted the exchange that I was commenting on. While your comment (I agree) did not fall into the category of ridicule, wig and erg's certainly did. I am not the polite police, but felt that the way Pug was treated was unnecessary.

Okay, fair enough.

Originally Posted by headshrinker78

I find the overarching themes of ppl.'s discontent to be someone surprising and ultimately amusing. Here are some point to consider:

Gripe 1: Psychologists don't make enough $$: If you go into psychology to "get paid" you are silly and deserve little sympathy. Psychology is ultimately a helping profession and one that you can be well compensated for. Earning $60-$80K is a very reasonable salary. Of course, there is potential to earn a lot more, but even at the low end, the profession is well compensated by American standards (average income ~45K). What seems to bother some ppl. is that their friends who went to medical school or Wall Street make so much more money. First, there are a ton of psych. students that couldn't hack pre-med so they go into psychology. So, considering the road to an MD is vastly more difficult, it's kinda disingenuous to say both professions should be compensated at the same level. As for those that bemoan not becoming a CEO or Wall Street maven, how could you even compare the two? It's a totally different life and, if you question why didn't go that route, you are either not appreciating what you have or you got into psychology for the wrong reasons.

Gripe 2. The road to success in psychology is so hard: Wah wah wah, boo hoo hoo. Tell me one worthwhile profession that doesn't involve a hard climb. I'm friends with several MD's and their training never stops. Many are in their mid-30's and they working non-stop for less than a ton of money. Why should psychology be any different? The world today is difficult for EVERYONE and to expect to graduate from a Ph.D. program at 28 and have the world in your hands is immature and spoiled.

Gripe 3. There is so much competition: The really should get lumped in with no. 2. Stiff competition is the name of the game for every profession today. My wife just earned a Ph.D from a top-Ivy university in biophysics and there are three post-doc's in her lab that are on their fourth yr. of post-doc work just waiting for a tenure track position to open up. And they are working on curing cancer....So please, stop griping about having to still compete after graduating from a psychology Ph.D. program. Also, the grim outlook that most ppl. seem to portray for the profession is likely anecdotal and not supported by facts. If you look at any recent vocational publications, the job outlook for psychology is actually much better than that of most professions.

I think what really happens in this profession is that, in college, the subject attracts a lot of bright ppl. that haven't really figured out what they really want to do in life. They end up majoring in psychology because studying human behavior is interesting and they think they can end up making tons of dough listening to ppl. talk about their problems all day. They end up working really hard because they realize getting into a psychology graduate program is a lot more competitive than they initially thought, only to graduate with a Ph.D at 28, but without ppl. lining up to gain from the immense wisdom they have attained during their life spent as a student. This in turn makes them sad and bitter. The truth is, many ppl. in this field have no business being in it, because they lack the humility and empathy necessary to be a good therapist. Those skills come from life experience, not from school.

As a final note, I would like to pre-emptively apologize to anyone I may have offended in this post. I know that making sweeping generalizations is dangerous and my summations may not apply to many of you.

Well, you have some points, but I think you are being overly critical about our curmudgeons. As for gripe 1:While a doctorate may or may not be as hard as medical school, it can be under-compensated when compared to other allied health and professionals fields of similar years of training. However, we have better options that other PhD academic fields. Being a hybrid degree, it really depends on your goals and how you are look at it. We also have the ability to still hang a shingle. Logistically, not many fields can say that anymore.

Gripe 2: Yes and no. There are many fields that are difficult to make it in, but the issues with internship are really unfair. You should not have to compete with others to graduate from your program after years of being put into debt, in what is basically a lottery system. I do think that admissions standards and class size restrictions should be more strictly managed. I'd prefer to take my boo-hoo and move onto another career without a mountain of debt thank you. As you can see, I don't mind gripe 3

The bottom line here is you have many different people with different gripes. The ones that I think are most disenchanted are those that went to professional schools and are struggling to graduate/ begin a career with large loans, those that want to live in the past, and those at the top who may see many of their professional accomplishments are not relevant to the jobs available on the market. For example, those that strive for academic positions and end up landing more clinical positions may see that their years of striving for publications was for nothing and that others get the same pay and benefits without all the agony. I often see psychodynamic/ psychoanalytic people in NY end up taking assessment or other jobs they have no interest and limited training in to pay bills because psychodynamic/analytic private practice just is not lucrative here anymore. As someone who is more middle of the road (funded program, more clinically oriented, interested in hospital health psych work, with a few pubs and good clinical experience) and trained in more up and coming areas in the field, I can say that I am not disappointed in my prospects at all, but there are things the field really needs to sort out.

Originally Posted by headshrinker78

I find the overarching themes of ppl.'s discontent to be someone surprising and ultimately amusing.

If you go into psychology to "get paid" you are silly and deserve little sympathy.

Wah wah wah, boo hoo hoo. Tell me one worthwhile profession that doesn't involve a hard climb.

The world today is difficult for EVERYONE and to expect to graduate from a Ph.D. program at 28 and have the world in your hands is immature and spoiled.

So please, stop griping about having to still compete after graduating from a psychology Ph.D. program.

Also, the grim outlook that most ppl. seem to portray for the profession is likely anecdotal and not supported by facts.


The truth is, many ppl. in this field have no business being in it, because they lack the humility and empathy necessary to be a good therapist. .

Anyone else find the last statement ironic given the first six? Also, your vast experience as a psychology student probably does not make you qualified to question actual psychologists' opinions on the basis of that experience alone. Data?

Originally Posted by Sanman

Gripe 2: Yes and no. There are many fields that are difficult to make it in, but the issues with internship are really unfair. You should not have to compete with others to graduate from your program after years of being put into debt, in what is basically a lottery system. I do think that admissions standards and class size restrictions should be more strictly managed.

I hope you signed the Occupy The Imbalance Petition...

Originally Posted by Sanman

For example, those that strive for academic positions and end up landing more clinical positions may see that their years of striving for publications was for nothing and that others get the same pay and benefits without all the agony.

I disagree that it was for nothing, as it is a good learning experience and I think a vital aspect of graduate training. With that being said, I do agree that for people who busted their butts and stayed extra years to get more publications....not attaining an academic position would be pretty rough.

Originally Posted by Sanman

...I can say that I am not disappointed in my prospects at all, but there are things the field really needs to sort out.

It sounds like you came into your training with at least a modest idea of the field and your path. I think students really get in trouble by NOT understanding the field, the market, and how their goals may or may not fit into these areas. It is beyond frustrating to see students come here (and into grad school) with a, "I don't care what you say, the market says, the field is saying...I'm going to do XYZ....", as 95% of the time the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. I think that is one reason why there is more push back with the less reputable programs because the costs just keep growing (tuition & loan % rates), and there is no course correction by students or the APA.

Originally Posted by psychgeek

Anyone else find the last statement ironic given the first six? Also, your vast experience as a psychology student probably does not make you qualified to question actual psychologists' opinions on the basis of that experience alone. Data?

There are far more problematic characteristics that plague the field than a perceived lack of humility and empathy. Being a quality clinician involves a combination of knowledge and interpersonal skills. I'd argue that without the knowledge....it doesn't matter if you have great interpersonal skills. There are definitely some people who aren't cut out to be clinicians, though I'd argue it is because they lack the former and not the latter.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

Being a quality clinician involves a combination of knowledge and interpersonal skills.

I'd add "strong technical skills" to the mix as well, maybe even trumping "knowledge." Without good practicum experiences and strong individualized supervision, many students graduate without the technical skills needed to be quality clinicians (though they may be real knowledgeable about psychology and therapy, they just can't apply that knowledge). That can contribute to poor career advancement and lack of satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

I disagree that it was for nothing, as it is a good learning experience and I think a vital aspect of graduate training. With that being said, I do agree that for people who busted their butts and stayed extra years to get more publications....not attaining an academic position would be pretty rough.

It sounds like you came into your training with at least a modest idea of the field and your path. I think students really get in trouble by NOT understanding the field, the market, and how their goals may or may not fit into these areas. It is beyond frustrating to see students come here (and into grad school) with a, "I don't care what you say, the market says, the field is saying...I'm going to do XYZ....", as 95% of the time the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. I think that is one reason why there is more push back with the less reputable programs because the costs just keep growing (tuition & loan % rates), and there is no course correction by students or the APA.

Not to say that the process of publishing is not a valuable learning experience (though it does make me want to bang my head against a wall at times). However, I don't think you are gaining as much from your 15th publication as the first few. At that point, many in the field are staying up at night trying to outdo the competition. There is a point where learning has diminished and you are simply trying to build your CV ( for many) given that there are only a certain number of projects that likely peaked your interest in grad school and the rest you work because you have to do so, IME. I see so many shoot for R1 positions and no one tells them things like you are better off getting more teaching experience because that is what many smaller institutions are more interested in.

You know, my journey was a combination of realizing that I would not be a superstar in grad school from the beginning (I have a chronic health condition and knew I would have to let things slide/be realistic if I wanted to get through without getting sick) and a thorough researching of the job market. I knew I liked neuropsych and health psych and saw both to be areas that would do well. My interests ended up more in health psych, but I have a strong neuro background as well. I also realize the importance of career portability (I like my career, but would not give up my relationship with my SO to move to the middle of nowhere and be unhappy outside of my career) and having a number of options on your path. Thus, I have gained military/VA experience as well to round out my options (I like the idea of service in capacity I can handle). I like teaching, but realize that it is something I can do as an adjunct. I just don't see many students or early career people in the field who have really done market analysis and know what job prospects and salaries to expect. As a result I see quite a few disappointed about the poor prospects of early career private practice (especially psychodynamic/psychoanalytic people), unprepared for academic careers below an r1 institution, and other who are disappointed in the salaries of their chosen area of the field (mostly those in college counseling centers and those working with children/families in community mental health). Those that chose a path more similar to mine seem happier in the field (VA employees, health psych people, neuropsych people, medical school/center academics).

Originally Posted by ClinicalABA

I'd add "strong technical skills" to the mix as well, maybe even trumping "knowledge." Without good practicum experiences and strong individualized supervision, many students graduate without the technical skills needed to be quality clinicians (though they may be real knowledgeable about psychology and therapy, they just can't apply that knowledge). That can contribute to poor career advancement and lack of satisfaction.

Great points. I actually started to write more...but I didn't have the time so I just hacked it down to those two. Knowledge definitely falls short without mentorship because the information needs to be understood in context, synthesized, and then applied through various interventions.

Originally Posted by Sanman

I see so many shoot for R1 positions and no one tells them things like you are better off getting more teaching experience because that is what many smaller institutions are more interested in.

I have definitely seen more than a handful of people do "R1 or Bust", and most of them didn't focus on teaching because it got in the way of publishing. It is definitely a different mindset. Sadly, at the best R1s.....research productivity and grant $$ are king, and everything else is somewhat negotiable. I'm at a Top 10 R1, and the faculty members are constantly chasing $'s and trying to meet/exceed the productivity standards because the tenture track is SO competitive. I think only 1-2 of our faculty members actually teach with any regularity, though the responsibilities of med school faculty are a bit different than in a psych dept....so YMMV.

Originally Posted by Sanman

I just don't see many students or early career people in the field who have really done market analysis and know what job prospects and salaries to expect.

*raises hand*

I've been tracking the numbers for the past 5 years, though it was pretty difficult in the beginning to get good data because so few people actually talked about salary...let alone total compensation. It is important to differentiate between salary and total compensation because psychologists often work multiple jobs and have a lot more opportunity for soft money than the typical therapist. I was looking at a position at Virginia (or Virginia Tech?) awhile back, and they actually had a 'compensation calculator' that told you exactly how much your compensation package would be at a given salary and position (staff v. faculty, etc). A $75k position quickly jumped to $110k+ when you factored in healthcare coverage, paid vacation, licensure fees, etc.

Originally Posted by Sanman

...and other who are disappointed in the salaries of their chosen area of the field (mostly those in college counseling centers and those working with children/families in community mental health). Those that chose a path more similar to mine seem happier in the field (VA employees, health psych people, neuropsych people, medical school/center academics).

There are admittedly HUGE gaps in salary (and overall compensation) across job settings within psychology, though "Happier" is a bit of a harder thing to quantify. Everyone would love to make $200k+ & work at a job they love, but the reality is that there will almost always be some compromise...the trick is finding a job where there is a good balance for you.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

There are admittedly HUGE gaps in salary (and overall compensation) across job settings within psychology, though "Happier" is a bit of a harder thing to quantify. Everyone would love to make $200k+ & work at a job they love, but the reality is that there will almost always be some compromise...the trick is finding a job where there is a good balance for you.

Well, I would say happier in the sense of satisfied with where they are in their career and in life. 200k would be great, but I am talking much smaller numbers. I have talked to colleagues in some other settings and areas I mentioned and they are making, as licensed clinicians, the same or even a bit less than I am making unlicensed and I stand to make a significant salary bump (~20k + benefits) if I stay in my current position after I get licensed. I know someone that took a UCC post-doc for $20k. Another colleague, licensed, is struggling to afford a new car when his old one finally died and had to ask his parents for help. To me $75k to $200k is a spread, but one that at least affords all of those mentioned a living salary, the ability pay back loans and at least be comfortable. I have seen licensed colleagues, first year in practice, start out anywhere from $35k to $90k. That spans huge differentials in regards to being able to even afford the basics.

Originally Posted by Sanman

Well, I would say happier in the sense of satisfied with where they are in their career and in life. 200k would be great, but I am talking much smaller numbers. I have talked to colleagues in some other settings and areas I mentioned and they are making, as licensed clinicians, the same or even a bit less than I am making unlicensed and I stand to make a significant salary bump (~20k + benefits) if I stay in my current position after I get licensed. I know someone that took a UCC post-doc for $20k. Another colleague, licensed, is struggling to afford a new car when his old one finally died and had to ask his parents for help. To me $75k to $200k is a spread, but one that at least affords all of those mentioned a living salary, the ability pay back loans and at least be comfortable. I have seen licensed colleagues, first year in practice, start out anywhere from $35k to $90k. That spans huge differentials in regards to being able to even afford the basics.

Ditto and that is the range I have witnessed as I have searched for jobs after I finish my postdoc myself. It is quite the range, and I made more than the lower extreme with my BA in Psychology.

Originally Posted by Pragma

Ditto and that is the range I have witnessed as I have searched for jobs after I finish my postdoc myself. It is quite the range, and I made more than the lower extreme with my BA in Psychology.

That is a very fair point. I haven't spent nearly as much time looking at CCs, CMHCs, and/or more therapy related settings...so my numbers are probably not reflective of them.

It is scary to see $50k's in places like NYC...yet there is a job doing psych evals for the police dept. that is being advertised in that range. I knew I'd have a certain amount of debt coming from a Psy.D., so I did a lot of research up front about the different job options because working at a CMHC for $48k/yr* isn't going to cut it for me to enjoy a certain lifestyle and pay off my loans. I make in the $40s now as a fellow, and I can't imagine trying to raise a family on it.

*completely made up salary.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

That is a very fair point. I haven't spent nearly as much time looking at CCs, CMHCs, and/or more therapy related settings...so my numbers are probably not reflective of them.

It is scary to see $50k's in places like NYC...yet there is a job doing psych evals for the police dept. that is being advertised in that range. I knew I'd have a certain amount of debt coming from a Psy.D., so I did a lot of research up front about the different job options because working at a CMHC for $48k/yr* isn't going to cut it for me to enjoy a certain lifestyle and pay off my loans. I make in the $40s now as a fellow, and I can't imagine trying to raise a family on it.

*completely made up salary.

Some of us neuropsych fellows have to moonlight as an adjunct instructor (for multiple courses per year) in order to hit the low 40's

Originally Posted by Pragma

Some of us neuropsych fellows have to moonlight as an adjunct instructor (for multiple courses per year) in order to hit the low 40's

We aren't allowed to work outside of the fellowship. Of course...it isn't like I'd have time to anyway. I have more free time now, but the first year and a half was pretty slammed.

Originally Posted by Therapist4Chnge

We aren't allowed to work outside of the fellowship. Of course...it isn't like I'd have time to anyway. I have more free time now, but the first year and a half was pretty slammed.

Yeah mine took a lot of negotiation! I'd say we are slammed, but most of the heavier days are predictable which has allowed me to selectively teach (with approval of course). The postdoc itself probably averages 55-60 hours per week (a 40 or 70 hour week happens on occasion), and as long as I keep grading to the weekends at home, my boss is satisfied.

We were averaging 60+ (sometimes 70) the first year or so, but I also crammed in regular neurology didactics 3x wk, patho, seizure clinic, and at least a couple of case seminars a week. Now I just hit the really interesting talks and enjoy my time.

You two are making me feel better that I went and got a job. I almost feel like a slacker pulling 50 hr weeks.

From Monster's Top 30 Fastest Growing Jobs by 2020:
http://www.boston.com/bostonworks/ga...jobs_2020?pg=4

Replacing clinical psychologists:

28. Mental health counselors

Projected increase in 2020: 36.3 percent
Number employed in 2010: 120,300
Median pay in 2010: $38,150
Education/training: Master's degree. Some states require public school counselors to have both counseling and teaching certificates and to have had some teaching experience.
Job outlook: Under managed care systems, insurance companies increasingly are providing for reimbursement of counselors as a less costly alternative to psychiatrists and psychologists.

Replacing health psychologists:

24. Health educators

Projected increase in 2020: 36.5 percent
Number employed in 2010: 63,400
Median pay in 2010: $45,830
Education/training: Entry-level health educator positions generally require a bachelor's degree from a health education program.
Job outlook: As health care costs continue to rise, health educators provide cost-effective ways to teach people how to live healthy lives.

Competing with psychologists:

18. Marriage and family therapists

Projected increase in 2020: 41.2 percent
Number employed in 2010: 36,000
Median pay in 2010: $45,720
Education/training: A master's degree usually is required to be licensed or certified as a counselor.
Job outlook: Good, as it is more common for people to seek help for their marital and family problems than it was in the past.