Go Back   Student Doctor Network Forums > Interdisciplinary Forums > Topics in Healthcare

Topics in Healthcare A place to discuss, discourse, hold forth, and maybe, just maybe, have your mind changed. RSS: Feed Icon


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-12-2012, 11:52 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 169

Default Do physicians have a legal obligation to report fraud by chiropractors?


SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
A family member has been talking to me about this amazing chiropractor for the last couple years, and most of what I've been hearing has sounded very fishy. This past break while I was home visiting, I went in to watch a treatment. The chiropractor uses a "Toftness radiation detector" to supposedly detect variations in the patient's magnetic field. Then the chiropractor waves his hands over their body in a certain manner to correct this. He sometimes uses "cold laser" therapy on especially problematic areas. His entire practice is based around this, and he does no manual manipulation. He has a certificate on his wall from some craniology program, and this relative has told me he sometimes feels her head and has pressed around inside her mouth a few times.

This obviously sounds like fraud. I've read the Toftness device he uses was banned by the FDA, and nothing he does sounds remotely like chiropractics, despite him billing insurance for such. I feel he should be reported, but I'm a little afraid of blowback from relatives and the community. The state doesn't allow anonymous reporting, and a copy of the report would be sent to the chiropractor and most of the investigation made open to the public eventually. Do physicians have a legal obligation to report this? Any suggestions on how to handle this?
tehdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 10:02 AM   #2
OMS-1
 
Prncssbuttercup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Where ever I am, I wish I was in Breckenridge CO
Posts: 2,681
SDN Gold Donor SDN 2+ Year Member
Default

Is it possible to report him to whatever licensing board? Or is that the group that has no anonymous reporting? Is it possible to report him to your state's attorney general instead?
__________________
Be kinder than necessary, everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle...
Be silent. Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth. I did not pass through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a witless worm. --Gandalf

We must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy. --Dumbledore


Class of 2016
Prncssbuttercup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 11:49 AM   #3
Man o' Tin Extraordinaire
 
Tin Man's Avatar
 
MDApps: View Profile
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 775
SDN 2+ Year Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdude View Post
A family member has been talking to me about this amazing chiropractor for the last couple years, and most of what I've been hearing has sounded very fishy. This past break while I was home visiting, I went in to watch a treatment. The chiropractor uses a "Toftness radiation detector" to supposedly detect variations in the patient's magnetic field. Then the chiropractor waves his hands over their body in a certain manner to correct this. He sometimes uses "cold laser" therapy on especially problematic areas. His entire practice is based around this, and he does no manual manipulation. He has a certificate on his wall from some craniology program, and this relative has told me he sometimes feels her head and has pressed around inside her mouth a few times.

This obviously sounds like fraud. I've read the Toftness device he uses was banned by the FDA, and nothing he does sounds remotely like chiropractics, despite him billing insurance for such. I feel he should be reported, but I'm a little afraid of blowback from relatives and the community. The state doesn't allow anonymous reporting, and a copy of the report would be sent to the chiropractor and most of the investigation made open to the public eventually. Do physicians have a legal obligation to report this? Any suggestions on how to handle this?
Tricky area, no? Some people consider chiropractic itself a sham therapy, and the evidence for its efficacy is pretty weak in the first place. How do you prove that someone is only pretending to perform a therapy that is itself essentially nothing more than a placebo (per the evidence)?
__________________
Enjoy this witty signature.
Tin Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 05:08 PM   #4
OMS-1
 
Prncssbuttercup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Where ever I am, I wish I was in Breckenridge CO
Posts: 2,681
SDN Gold Donor SDN 2+ Year Member
Default

I have been helped by real adjustments coupled with PT, but not the stuff he's talking about... either way, it's a personal preference... anyway, since the state doesn't consider chiro in and of itself a sham, you need to move beyond that in regards to this question...
Prncssbuttercup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 08:30 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 169

Default

It's not fraud because of a lack of evidence for chiropractics. It's fraud because the Toftness device exam and fixing people's auras are not chiropractic procedures. He is billing for services/procedures that are not being provided. And since the FDA banned the sale and production of the Toftness devices and ordered chiropractors to surrender ones they had purchased, is it even legal to use one now?
tehdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 10:34 PM   #6
1K Member
 
Status: Fellow
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lactate > 15
Posts: 2,055
Army SDN 10+ Year Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdude View Post
It's not fraud because of a lack of evidence for chiropractics. It's fraud because the Toftness device exam and fixing people's auras are not chiropractic procedures. He is billing for services/procedures that are not being provided. And since the FDA banned the sale and production of the Toftness devices and ordered chiropractors to surrender ones they had purchased, is it even legal to use one now?
This is partially correct. Even though this is not a "chiropractic procedure" it's still fraud if the DC is intentionally misleading his patients and gaining financially. Oddly enough, if he believes it is curative, he has at least a little legal ground to stand on in denying the fraud. Now, if the evidence is clear that this therapy is valueless and just so grossly negligent that he refuses to believe the evidence, then he could still be held liable. I don't know anything about the Toftness device, but if what has been noted is true (banned by the FDA due to ineffectiveness), I think that would go a long way to establishing his intent.

Back to the OP's questions, I have never heard of any physician being sanctioned for not reporting a bad DC.

Ed
__________________
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
edmadison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2012, 05:14 PM   #7
3K Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,576
SDN 5+ Year Member
Default

Call the state chiro board and ask if Toftness is a legit technique in that state. If it is, end of story.

Be aware that there are many chiropractic techniques and that this DC may indeed be performing a legit form of treatment, aside from Toftness, that is legal and billable.

Fraud may be a tough case to make. If Toftness is expressly prohibited in that state and Toftness is exactly the only thing this chiro does, then perhaps you've got something. Otherwise forget it.

Last edited by facetguy; 03-15-2012 at 05:21 PM.
facetguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2012, 05:21 PM   #8
3K Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,576
SDN 5+ Year Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
Tricky area, no? Some people consider chiropractic itself a sham therapy, and the evidence for its efficacy is pretty weak in the first place. How do you prove that someone is only pretending to perform a therapy that is itself essentially nothing more than a placebo (per the evidence)?
Nothing more than placebo per the evidence? I'd ask you to explain, but I'm fairly certain that would be a waste of everyone's time. Please, at least do a little reading before pretending to be informed on an issue.
facetguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 03:36 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 116
SDN 2+ Year Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by facetguy View Post
Nothing more than placebo per the evidence? I'd ask you to explain, but I'm fairly certain that would be a waste of everyone's time. Please, at least do a little reading before pretending to be informed on an issue.
Actually, he's right.

In fact, chiropractic spinal manipulation has been found to be ineffective for every medical condition. At one point it was believed to be effective for certain types of lower back pain, but the more recent systematic reviews find it ineffective for all conditions:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21952385

Some SBM skeptics wrote about it here:

http://www.skepticalhealth.com/2012/...ble-profession

Some of the biggest fears of chiropractic treatment is the recruitment of patients to all of their quackery, such as the bogus "aura" diagnostic machine, or their anti-vaccination propaganda, and all of that. I've spent a long time working in an orthos office during college and saw at least 2 patients a week who were diagnosed with scoliosis, or spinal spurs, or "uneven hips" by chiropractors, and nearly every time the patient's xrays were completely normal. And let's not even mention vertebral artery dissection.
LouisianaDoctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 05:00 PM   #10
3K Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,576
SDN 5+ Year Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisianaDoctor View Post
Actually, he's right.

In fact, chiropractic spinal manipulation has been found to be ineffective for every medical condition. At one point it was believed to be effective for certain types of lower back pain, but the more recent systematic reviews find it ineffective for all conditions:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21952385

Some SBM skeptics wrote about it here:

http://www.skepticalhealth.com/2012/...ble-profession

Some of the biggest fears of chiropractic treatment is the recruitment of patients to all of their quackery, such as the bogus "aura" diagnostic machine, or their anti-vaccination propaganda, and all of that. I've spent a long time working in an orthos office during college and saw at least 2 patients a week who were diagnosed with scoliosis, or spinal spurs, or "uneven hips" by chiropractors, and nearly every time the patient's xrays were completely normal. And let's not even mention vertebral artery dissection.
May I recommend that you read a little more broadly, i.e. more than one article by a well-known chirobasher (Ernst). Thanks, and happy reading (you'll be awhile).
facetguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #11
OMS-1
 
Prncssbuttercup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Where ever I am, I wish I was in Breckenridge CO
Posts: 2,681
SDN Gold Donor SDN 2+ Year Member
Default

Uneven hips... I have them... because my right leg is .5" shorter than my left. Scoliosis, my cousin has the worst case I've ever seen because her parents didn't treat it when she was a kid, she looks like the Hunchback of ND... moveable joints can and do slip and slide, if you weren't behind a computer I could show you how my clavical slips out of place and I have to 'crack' it back into place... if you've never been blessed with it be thankful...
Prncssbuttercup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 10:31 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 169

Default

I sent a rather lengthy letter to the state board detailing my experience with him, the Toftness detector, his treatment of correcting patients' auras, and included a copy of the FDA ruling on the device. I asked how investigations were typically conducted, if an investigator needed my contact info, etc... This is the reply I just received from the state board:

Quote:
Never heard of it.

Whats that? How does it work? Did he learn this through his chiropractic college?

I need more information about this device, then I should be able to answer your questions.
I know it's a chiropractic board, but I was expecting a more formal and professional reply. Why are they asking me if it is taught at chiropractic colleges? Isn't that something they should know? Why are they asking me to look into it? Are they not responsible for investigating **** themselves? What a ****ing joke.
tehdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 04:42 AM   #13
3K Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,576
SDN 5+ Year Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehdude View Post
I sent a rather lengthy letter to the state board detailing my experience with him, the Toftness detector, his treatment of correcting patients' auras, and included a copy of the FDA ruling on the device. I asked how investigations were typically conducted, if an investigator needed my contact info, etc... This is the reply I just received from the state board:



I know it's a chiropractic board, but I was expecting a more formal and professional reply. Why are they asking me if it is taught at chiropractic colleges? Isn't that something they should know? Why are they asking me to look into it? Are they not responsible for investigating **** themselves? What a ****ing joke.
Don't let it get your aura in a bunch.
facetguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 06:24 AM   #14
Bone Cracker
 
ClinicalAdvisor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 15

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by facetguy View Post
Don't let it get your aura in a bunch.
LOL. I like that reply.
__________________
Chiropractors, also known as Doctors of Chiropractic or Chiropractic Physicians.

Chiropractors provide natural, drug less, nonsurgical health treatments and rely on the body’s inherent recuperative abilities.



ClinicalAdvisor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:36 AM   #15
Junior Member
 
Chimpanzee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 21

Default

I don't think you have a "legal obligation to report" as you've asked. You do have a legal obligation to not get involved in the fraud.
Chimpanzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 05:59 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Roguelyn's Avatar
 
Status: Resident
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 189

Default

I can't imagine any reason why you'd be obligated to report this practice. We are typically legally obligated to report things that will harm a patient. Although this guy may be emptying his clients wallets he's not harming them. As far as billing fraud, that might be something to report to his insurer or one of the larger health insurance companies in your town. It may not be looked into, but at least you'll rest easier.

That chiropractic board response is frightening.
Roguelyn is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:37 AM.


Comments are closed.