How Serious is Oversaturation in Dentistry

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This has probably been answered many times over , but how much should we worry? I know that California (especially So-Cal) is pretty bad. I'd appreciate responses from dentists and those knowledgeable on the matter (Dr. Pham etc). Thank you!

Originally Posted by MaceG1

This has probably been answered many times over , but how much should we worry? I know that California (especially So-Cal) is pretty bad. I'd appreciate responses from dentists and those knowledgeable on the matter (Dr. Pham etc). Thank you!

From what my dentist told me: NY, SF, LA are crazy saturated. Midwest or South is where the big money is.

PHX is extremely saturated. In fact, in 2008, over 80 dental practices went under (which is sorta expected IMO. You can spot about 15-20 dental offcies within a 1 mi radius. Plus 2 brand new dental schools in the city)
Vegas is pretty saturated. So are Houston, Dallas, Austin San Antonio.
This actually applies to all the major big cities in US.

Dentists no longer compete against one another. Corporate dentistry (Aspen, Western, SmileSmile, bigsmile, whatever cheesy names) are changing the game.

Any city with a dental school = saturated
Any desirable place to live = saturated

So that leaves about 20% of America left unconquered lol

Originally Posted by AwesomeTeeth

Any city with a dental school = saturated
Any desirable place to live = saturated

So that leaves about 20% of America left unconquered lol

Oh god we're screwed

Originally Posted by AwesomeTeeth

Any city with a dental school = saturated
Any desirable place to live = saturated

So that leaves about 20% of America left unconquered lol

Lol I wouldn't say 80% of America would be considered a desirable place to live. There are many nice places one can practice dentistry and make tons of money and still have a social life.. It seems a lot of people on this board don't think so. They think California and New York or Florida are the only nice places in the world and they must live there and pay 400k for their education to do so..

Everyone has their own preference of where they want to live, and you will have to make many sacrifices if you choose to live in very saturated area

Originally Posted by Dgeorg6

Lol I wouldn't say 80% of America would be considered a desirable place to live. There are many nice places one can practice dentistry and make tons of money and still have a social life.. It seems a lot of people on this board don't think so. They think California and New York or Florida are the only nice places in the world and they must live there and pay 400k for their education to do so..

Everyone has their own preference of where they want to live, and you will have to make many sacrifices if you choose to live in very saturated area

Well said...I agree with ^

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As far as Texas goes, like the poster above said, Austin, Houston, Dallas, SA are all very saturated. Hell my hometown with 100k population which is an hour and a half from Houston has a dental office on every block.

I kind of accepted a long time ago that the supply vs demand situation the industry had going was going to disappear. I feel if you don't put yourself in the a situation where you have to make 200k, you won't be screwed.

I'm actually more excited about the job security aspect anyway. I just learned my company will be laying people off. (And here I am, surfing the web on my down time...)


As for the midwest being the place to strike it rich, dentists I've talked to around here seem to think that this is only true some distance from urban areas. They say suburbs and cities are still quite competitive, like anywhere else. Just my 2 cents - well their 2 cents.

Originally Posted by hellopeople

I kind of accepted a long time ago that the supply vs demand situation the industry had going was going to disappear. I feel if you don't put yourself in the a situation where you have to make 200k, you won't be screwed.

I'm actually more excited about the job security aspect anyway. I just learned my company will be laying people off. (And here I am, surfing the web on my down time...)


As for the midwest being the place to strike it rich, dentists I've talked to around here seem to think that this is only true some distance from urban areas. They say suburbs and cities are still quite competitive, like anywhere else. Just my 2 cents - well their 2 cents.

Those are good points. What concerns me is this notion that there is an impending shortage of dentists (as a result of the aging baby boomer population and the fact that people retain their teeth longer), however what happens when said baby boomers die? Eventually the bell-curve will be on the side of over-saturation and not just in metropolitan and urban areas. Right?

Originally Posted by MaceG1

Those are good points. What concerns me is this notion that there is an impending shortage of dentists (as a result of the aging baby boomer population and the fact that people retain their teeth longer), however what happens when said baby boomers die? Eventually the bell-curve will be on the side of over-saturation and not just in metropolitan and urban areas. Right?

The baby boomers aren't going to have any babies?

I think the problem of saturation in many areas is not limited to dentists. I think many industries face this same problem. Lawyers are now facing the problems of oversupply, yet many still find success. Obviously saturation results in more competition, but it does not mean that many dentists will not be able to achieve success in many areas.

In bigger cities there are still dentists that do very well. There are also some dentists in decent sized rural areas that don't do very well. I don't look at a DMD as an immediate ticket to good money. Just like any other profession there is competition. If you have good skills, can do something not many others can do then you can out compete most other dentists. The key is being able to do something that most can't do...and that doesn't always mean specializing.

Originally Posted by timwatley

In bigger cities there are still dentists that do very well. There are also some dentists in decent sized rural areas that don't do very well. I don't look at a DMD as an immediate ticket to good money. Just like any other profession there is competition. If you have good skills, can do something not many others can do then you can out compete most other dentists. The key is being able to do something that most can't do...and that doesn't always mean specializing.

I couldn't agree more.
Personally I'm planning to go to Phx, vegas, or major big cities in TX although I know competition is crazy intense. I want a big city lifestyle and I won't compromise on that.

you just have to be creative and set up your niche that other competitors can't mimic. We all manage to beat the competition for admission (we are one of 100ppl out of 3k applicants). We can def find a way to be unique in the real world too.

And, let's be honest. how many dentists do you think in your town are business-orientated, manage staffs well and charm his/her patients? (for those old timers, required GPA/DAT was lower, easier interviews, less competition) I'm not saying we are so much better nor I'm great at interpersonal skills. Yet you have to be standing out nowadays.

with thorough preparations and detailed strategies, sky is the limit amigos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by TheClutch

I couldn't agree more.
Personally I'm planning to go to Phx, vegas, or major big cities in TX although I know competition is crazy intense. I want a big city lifestyle and I won't compromise on that.

you just have to be creative and set up your niche that other competitors can't mimic. We all manage to beat the competition for admission (we are one of 100ppl out of 3k applicants). We can def find a way to be unique in the real world too.

And, let's be honest. how many dentists do you think in your town are business-orientated, manage staffs well and charm his/her patients? (for those old timers, required GPA/DAT was lower, easier interviews, less competition) I'm not saying we are so much better nor I'm great at interpersonal skills. Yet you have to be standing out nowadays.

with thorough preparations and detailed strategies, sky is the limit amigos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like the confidence, but I wouldn't just assume you can beat out those old timers. They didn't have as competitive of an admissions process, but I'm not sure how well DAT scores, undergraduate GPAs, or these silly interviews correlate with business acumen.

I couldn't imagine how I would set up a niche that established dentists (with capital and experience) and relatively new dentists (with recent education equal to mine) couldn't easily enter within a few years of noting my success. I mean, they have access to the same CE and, thanks to the competition, probably represent some of the more creative, likable, and clever dentists out there.

Originally Posted by hellopeople

I like the confidence, but I wouldn't just assume you can beat out those old timers. They didn't have as competitive of an admissions process, but I'm not sure how well DAT scores, undergraduate GPAs, or these silly interviews correlate with business acumen.

I couldn't imagine how I would set up a niche that established dentists (with capital and experience) and relatively new dentists (with recent education equal to mine) couldn't easily enter within a few years of noting my success. I mean, they have access to the same CE and, thanks to the competition, probably represent some of the more creative, likable, and clever dentists out there.

I'll talk briefly since it's up to each and every one of us to find a way.
who do you think would do better filling? old dentist. what about crown preps? old dentists.
so we won't be able to compete in those categories. they can do it better. in less time. very efficiently. Not to mention, they already have reputation to attract new patients.

But we can do something a little different.
I can pick some procedures that most dentists don't like to do. I can limit my scope of practice and learn to be very good and efficient. Soon or later, I will be getting enough referrals to fill my schedule. I won't have much competition and with efficiency I can see a lot of patients and crank up $$$ numbers.

That's just one example of finding your own niche. finding a niche is not easy (easier to be said and done ) def requires a market and demographic research and a lot of analyzing and headaches.

I believe being clinically excellent does not guarantee financially success. Likewise, being old & experienced does not mean great interpersonal skills.

As you mentioned, the old timers have accumulated resources and experience. That's why we got to spend a tons of time on finding a niche. Like I said, it's not easy. If it's easy, everyone will be successful.

Lastly, about the competition. Nowadays, dental school admission is so competitive, an applicant has to be well-rounded. One has to do a bunch of ECs (requires time management skills, be able to multitask) and know what each school is looking for whether it's grade, scores, ECs, essay, research, or volunteering (be able to gather n analyze information and objectively evaluate yourself ). A lot of applicants contact admission staffs or current students to get more info and build connections (taking initiative). I could go on but I think you get the point.

You have valid points and I know what you mean, but I believe when we stop focusing on why we can't be successful , we can finally see opportunities that lead us to success.

Lets hope in 5-10 yrs many will go into retirement.

Originally Posted by hellopeople

I like the confidence, but I wouldn't just assume you can beat out those old timers. They didn't have as competitive of an admissions process, but I'm not sure how well DAT scores, undergraduate GPAs, or these silly interviews correlate with business acumen.

I couldn't imagine how I would set up a niche that established dentists (with capital and experience) and relatively new dentists (with recent education equal to mine) couldn't easily enter within a few years of noting my success. I mean, they have access to the same CE and, thanks to the competition, probably represent some of the more creative, likable, and clever dentists out there.

You'd be surprised. I shadowed a dentist who was a faculty member at a dental school for 10 years or so. While teaching he was able to gain a huge understanding of the area he was interested in. He knows the mouth inside and out..doesn't do any advertising (all word of mouth)..and is always booked a month in advance. You can imitate but not duplicate... patients will always be loyal if you treat them right and know your stuff.

Come to Louisiana! The dean of admissions at LSU told us that the majority of Louisiana has a shortage of dentists.

Originally Posted by yappy

Lets hope in 5-10 yrs many will go into retirement.

That's what I'm banking on!

Originally Posted by TheClutch

I'll talk briefly since it's up to each and every one of us to find a way.
who do you think would do better filling? old dentist. what about crown preps? old dentists.
so we won't be able to compete in those categories. they can do it better. in less time. very efficiently. Not to mention, they already have reputation to attract new patients.

But we can do something a little different.
I can pick some procedures that most dentists don't like to do. I can limit my scope of practice and learn to be very good and efficient. Soon or later, I will be getting enough referrals to fill my schedule. I won't have much competition and with efficiency I can see a lot of patients and crank up $$$ numbers.

That's just one example of finding your own niche. finding a niche is not easy (easier to be said and done ) def requires a market and demographic research and a lot of analyzing and headaches.

I believe being clinically excellent does not guarantee financially success. Likewise, being old & experienced does not mean great interpersonal skills.

As you mentioned, the old timers have accumulated resources and experience. That's why we got to spend a tons of time on finding a niche. Like I said, it's not easy. If it's easy, everyone will be successful.

Lastly, about the competition. Nowadays, dental school admission is so competitive, an applicant has to be well-rounded. One has to do a bunch of ECs (requires time management skills, be able to multitask) and know what each school is looking for whether it's grade, scores, ECs, essay, research, or volunteering (be able to gather n analyze information and objectively evaluate yourself ). A lot of applicants contact admission staffs or current students to get more info and build connections (taking initiative). I could go on but I think you get the point.

You have valid points and I know what you mean, but I believe when we stop focusing on why we can't be successful , we can finally see opportunities that lead us to success.

I think its quite foolish to assume that you'll be a better business man than someone whos been doing it 30+ years. Just because you know the newer or modern way to do certain procedures or even market yourself, it doesn't guarantee or imply a better success rate than current dentists. The best thing to do would be to learn from existing practices and tweak them to succeed and be more profitable. That's a lot better than trying to reinvent the wheel.

Originally Posted by timwatley

you can imitate but not duplicate... patients will always be loyal if you treat them right and know your stuff.

+1

Ah, the tri-weekly "sky is falling" thread

Isn't the answer typically "No career is easy money, you have to work hard, avoid these 10 places" and the like? And, take small business classes/talk to as many professionals as you can before school? People with plans and ideas invariably do better than those who think it's easy money, or think there are too many dentists.

Originally Posted by TikiTorchUSA

I think its quite foolish to assume that you'll be a better business man than someone whos been doing it 30+ years. Just because you know the newer or modern way to do certain procedures (i didn't talk about doing newer or modern. just focusing something no one wants to do. They are not the same) or even market yourself, it doesn't guarantee or imply a better success rate than current dentists (again I never said it guarantees success. I said that opportunities are out there and we gotta work hard to capture them) The best thing to do would be to learn from existing practices and tweak them to succeed and be more profitable (I agree. that's one way to be successful). That's a lot better than trying to reinvent the wheel.(it is not reinventing the wheel. you are not doing anything new. rather you are focusing on something most people don't do or being innovative. What is a lot better? learning from existing practice?? isn't that all the dentists do, but most of them are yet to be successful?)

dude just to clarify,
I never said that we will be better business men and women than old timers. I also never said that the old timers are better business men and women than us.
Their resources and accumulated experience give them an edge. But like i said, that doesn't mean we can't be as successful as they are.

It is up to each person. Everyone has different backgrounds and knowledge. Thus, everyone has different strengths and weakness. If you suck at some stuffs as I am, then be willing to work your ass off to be better.
Being old or new means nothing. If you work hard and have a great plan, you can be successful.

It won't be easy. I never said that it will be, but it is possible. It can be done.

Stop telling yourself that you can't compete against old timers.
change your mentality

Embrace newer technology specifically Internet technology. This is your best way to compete against those in business for 20+ years. It's a great equalizer.

Originally Posted by TheClutch

dude just to clarify,
I never said that we will be better business men and women than old timers. I also never said that the old timers are better business men and women than us.
Their resources and accumulated experience give them an edge. But like i said, that doesn't mean we can't be as successful as they are.

It is up to each person. Everyone has different backgrounds and knowledge. Thus, everyone has different strengths and weakness. If you suck at some stuffs as I am, then be willing to work your ass off to be better.
Being old or new means nothing. If you work hard and have a great plan, you can be successful.

It won't be easy. I never said that it will be, but it is possible. It can be done.

Stop telling yourself that you can't compete against old timers.
change your mentality

I never said that I can't be on their level, but you seem to think you'll rise above their level quite quickly because you have "extensive"experience in running a practice LOL. The point i'm making is that you should buy into a practice, learn how to make old school money while learning ways to make new money. That's all.

I don't think Clutch meant to come off in a bad way at all.

Originally Posted by Firm

Embrace newer technology specifically Internet technology. This is your best way to compete against those in business for 20+ years. It's a great equalizer.

I agree! It's important to stay up to date.

The south is definitely the place to be. In GA, the dentists that work near one of Forbes most wealthiest places do it right.

I think everything except medicine and nursing is becoming over-saturated. Pharmacy is the worst!