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Originally Posted by All4MyDaughter

I don't know anyone who went to school on Pell Grants who didn't also have to work. Pell Grants don't cover the cost of tuition at most schools anyway, let alone living expenses. Many of my friends had a combination of Pell Grants, state grants, work study and loans.

I rarely took more than 12 credit hours in undergraduate because I worked so much.

That's absolutely correct. Everyone I have ever met...ever...that was getting a Pell Grant still had a job or got merit scholarships to make up the difference.

I hardly ever took >12 credits either because I worked full time. But what do I know? I'm just a ghetto kid

I agree about the Pell Grant. I receive it, but it is barely anything compared to pharm tuition.

I think some of us are missing the big picture and the hard facts of existance.

1) Humans are not perfect, thus any system that humans come up with will not be perfect.

2) Humans collectively tend to be selfish and most will take advantage of a system if they can.

3) Therefore we must accept the fact that there will be a segment of the population that will use a system put into place in a way in which it was not designed to be used.

It is true that I know of some people that have used student grants/loans to their advantage. However, most of them borrowed money on top of the grant money given to them by the gov't. This means that when they dropped out they are stuck with that debt (I will not address the issue of them paying it back or not). HOWEVER, I also know many people who would not have been able to access higher education without the government programs in place.

I am a good example. Married with a 2 year old and with a family that is by no means poor, but who could NEVER afford $20,000+a year to send me to pharmacy school. I worked hard during undergrad, and got out with less than ten thousand dollars in loans. So while it is true that I am now having to take out more unsubsidized loans, I have already benefited from the system. Who am I to complain?

Besides, at the end of the day, the lazy people who don't finish their degrees are no better than when they started. In fact, they may be worse off if they took out loans. Those who work hard and utilize the programs as they were intended to be used have a great chance at improving their life situation. Let's not get too wrapped up in negativity here.

Originally Posted by Eichhoernchen

I agree about the Pell Grant. I receive it, but it is barely anything compared to pharm tuition.

False. Pell Grants are only used to purchase automobiles on the backs of the working middle class. FACT.

Originally Posted by All4MyDaughter

45% get what? Pell Grants? I don't believe it. Federal Aid? Maybe, that would include loans, you know.

Yes. it flat out says its pell grant recipients.

Originally Posted by rxlea

Unfortunately, your bitterness and offensive generalizations cloud your argument.

There is always someone out there that works just as hard or harder than you or has it ****tier than you. Instead of crying about the girl who got her own room, suck it up and make a difference. You're too damn worried about yourself and what you're getting or not getting.

I don't need you telling me there are people out there who work harder than me. I know there are. I also don't need you to tell me to go out and make a difference, you have no idea what I do in my free time and what I'm involved in with my life. You think I'm really crying over this girl? Please, it was just an example I used to paint a picture. I'm proud of myself and my accomplishments and I can say that I honestly put myself through school, worked hard and continue to work hard. Just because I notice inefficiencies in the system doesn't mean I'm unhappy with my life.

Originally Posted by owlegrad

False. Pell Grants are only used to purchase automobiles on the backs of the working middle class. FACT.

exactly right, and everyone knows what kind of a sweet ride you can purchase with five thousand big ones!

Originally Posted by owlegrad

False. Pell Grants are only used to purchase automobiles on the backs of the working middle class. FACT.

What is wrong with everyone on this forum?? I'm not saying EVERYONE does that. Obviously SOME people take advantage of the system. SOME. I made some sarcastic comment and you guys jumped on it like hungry wolves searching for drama. How can I even continue this discussion when you go to the extreme of what I said, blow it out of proportion and make fun of my comments. I am saying SOME people take advantage of the system and to ensure the system does not get taken advantage of, more strict rules could be put in place, especially when our economy sucks and we can't afford to be loose with the budget.

Originally Posted by rxlea

Good academic standing = 2.0 (C average). Not sure what school says good academic standing is anything below that. Many of the scholarships/grants I see have a 2.5-3.0.

twelve credits is reasonable, IMO. Many students still work and go to school.

C average IMO is too low, which is a joke in term of difficulty in undergrad. If students or their parents are footing the bill, they can blow grades all they want, but not when it's tax payers footing the bill.

To complete a degree with a low credit total of 120 in 4 years require 15 hr/semester. It will take 5+ years at 12 credit a semester. When you couple that to a C average, you can clearly see why many might have issue of setting such low requirements for handouts.

Googled Pell grant GPA requirement and found this: while most schools use 2.0 as the criteria, there is actually no requirement, it's up to the school to decide whether it's barely above all Fs or straight As. You know what I recommend as the cut-off.

http://pellgranteligibility.net/pell...a-requirement/

Originally Posted by xiphoid2010

C average IMO is too low, which is a joke in term of difficulty in undergrad. If students or their parents are footing the bill, they can blow grades all they want, but not when it's tax payers footing the bill.

To complete a degree with a low credit total of 120 in 4 years require 15 hr/semester. It will take 5+ years at 12 credit a semester. When you couple that to a C average, you can clearly see why many might have issue of setting such low requirements for handouts.

Then we should consider changing the definition of "satisfactory progress" at state institutions, since the tax payers are footing the bill for ALL students at those schools.

Originally Posted by owlegrad

Yahoo

Originally Posted by owlegrad

Top!

Originally Posted by All4MyDaughter

Oh you are mean!!!

Originally Posted by All4MyDaughter

Then we should consider changing the definition of "satisfactory progress" at state institutions, since the tax payers are footing the bill for ALL students at those schools.

The difference is that in-state tuition is applied equally to all in-state students regardless of income, kind of like K-12 system. This is very much different from a need based financial aid.

But I have always been a believer of meritocracy. I like traditional chinese education system: the top students get an university education and it's free, above average students gets community college, the rest go directly into the workforce. Not very nice for sure, but it works.

http://hechingerreport.org/content/s...ducation_5810/

since it seems like you guys didn't believe that people abuse pell grants

"In financial aid circles, they’re known as Pell runners"

Originally Posted by pharmasaur

Yes. it flat out says its pell grant recipients.



I don't need you telling me there are people out there who work harder than me. I know there are. I also don't need you to tell me to go out and make a difference, you have no idea what I do in my free time and what I'm involved in with my life. You think I'm really crying over this girl? Please, it was just an example I used to paint a picture. I'm proud of myself and my accomplishments and I can say that I honestly put myself through school, worked hard and continue to work hard. Just because I notice inefficiencies in the system doesn't mean I'm unhappy with my life.

your version of "noticing inefficiencies" includes putting an entire group of people down. If you're bitter, do something to change the system.

I'm glad you work hard. But so do many other people...poor people included. Maybe you should try to frame your argument a little differently...

Originally Posted by xiphoid2010

The difference is that in-state tuition is applied equally to all in-state students regardless of income, kind of like K-12 system. This is very much different from a need based financial aid.

But I have always been a believer of meritocracy. I like traditional chinese education system: the top students get an university education and it's free, above average students gets community college, the rest go directly into the workforce. Not very nice for sure, but it works.

I have long said that not all young people should be pressured to go to college. TBH, there are people in college that probably shouldn't be. There is nothing wrong with good votech programs...this country was built on blue collar work ethic. Companies need to bring good paying jobs back to America. I would pay the higher price if I knew it meant Americans were making decent wages to support their families. It's one of the reasons I buy local.

Originally Posted by rxlea

your version of "noticing inefficiencies" includes putting an entire group of people down. If you're bitter, do something to change the system.

I'm glad you work hard. But so do many other people...poor people included. Maybe you should try to frame your argument a little differently...

My intention was never to attack poor people in general, but to those people who take advantage of educational grants, and on a larger scale, our system that doesn't make education free and we end up taking taking a **** ton of loans out...yet we can't get classes because of budget cuts, but oh look the school is building an olympic size swimming pool and a 5 star gym

Originally Posted by rxlea

I have long said that not all young people should be pressured to go to college. TBH, there are people in college that probably shouldn't be. There is nothing wrong with good votech programs...this country was built on blue collar work ethic. Companies need to bring good paying jobs back to America. I would pay the higher price if I knew it meant Americans were making decent wages to support their families. It's one of the reasons I buy local.

I totally agree with this. Kids are pressured to get bachelor's degrees, they don't know what to major in, not sure what the right path is, end up majoring in things like psychology (come on we all know its the "I don't know what to major in" major )....which is fine, if you have a plan but most students don't have a plan. Then they go on to get master's degree and just stay in school hoping to find out what to do. When maybe all along they would have been happy with a technical career. Don't know why there's such a negative stigma to holding a technical career and working in a nice shiny office is so glorified. I don't know if the education system ends up getting watered down because we have less-than-motivated students in college or what, but we now require way more years of schooling than ever before to get a basic job.
Lab tech jobs that used to require just an AA and pay 8 bucks an hour now usually take applicants with either MS degrees in Biology or extensive research experience as an undergrad

Originally Posted by pharmasaur

My intention was never to attack poor people in general, but to those people who take advantage of educational grants, and on a larger scale, our system that doesn't make education free and we end up taking taking a **** ton of loans out...yet we can't get classes because of budget cuts, but oh look the school is building an olympic size swimming pool and a 5 star gym



I totally agree with this. Kids are pressured to get bachelor's degrees, they don't know what to major in, not sure what the right path is, end up majoring in things like psychology (come on we all know its the "I don't know what to major in" major )....which is fine, if you have a plan but most students don't have a plan. Then they go on to get master's degree and just stay in school hoping to find out what to do. When maybe all along they would have been happy with a technical career. Don't know why there's such a negative stigma to holding a technical career and working in a nice shiny office is so glorified. I don't know if the education system ends up getting watered down because we have less-than-motivated students in college or what, but we now require way more years of schooling than ever before to get a basic job.
Lab tech jobs that used to require just an AA and pay 8 bucks an hour now usually take applicants with either MS degrees in Biology or extensive research experience as an undergrad

See, this is what I'm talking about. You and your blatant generalizations. I majored in psychology. It was one of the best things I ever did and I loved it (still do!). I also grew up in the "hood", never got a Pell Grant, and work just as much as you, if not more. I worked hard too. But I know first handthat there are lots of less than fortunate people who need a chance at life. Yes, there are people that take advantage...at all levels of society. But you can't deny people a chance that deserve one just because a handful of people are a bunch of jerks. It's not black and white like that. The problem is that we are tackling the symptoms, not finding a cure. And coming onto to SDN to bitch about poor people is nothing new. You're no different than any other special little snowflake trying to get into pharmacy school because they "want to help people". If you want to help people, then be a part of the solution. There are already enough flapping heads in the government who point out problems and don't do anything about them.


edit I do agree with your point about watered down education. Students think they are going to get a degree and make lots of money. They need a wake up call. It's not a bad thing to be a mechanic or a welder or an electrician. Those are good careers. Society needs to stop lying to them.

Originally Posted by rxlea

See, this is what I'm talking about. You and your blatant generalizations. I majored in psychology. It was one of the best things I ever did and I loved it (still do!). I also grew up in the "hood", never got a Pell Grant, and work just as much as you, if not more. I worked hard too. But I know first handthat there are lots of less than fortunate people who need a chance at life. Yes, there are people that take advantage...at all levels of society. But you can't deny people a chance that deserve one just because a handful of people are a bunch of jerks. It's not black and white like that. The problem is that we are tackling the symptoms, not finding a cure. And coming onto to SDN to bitch about poor people is nothing new. You're no different than any other special little snowflake trying to get into pharmacy school because they "want to help people". If you want to help people, then be a part of the solution. There are already enough flapping heads in the government who point out problems and don't do anything about them.


edit I do agree with your point about watered down education. Students think they are going to get a degree and make lots of money. They need a wake up call. It's not a bad thing to be a mechanic or a welder or an electrician. Those are good careers. Society needs to stop lying to them.

I don't think you're reading my comments carefully. I pointed out psychology as a random major to say, it's probably not a good idea to study this...UNLESS YOU HAVE A PLAN. Clearly you have a plan, you're in pharmacy school, etc. My point was going to college, getting a degree in anything, just to say you have a bachelor's, doesn't work anymore. Students need a plan but they don't have a plan and they remain perpetual students or they find low paying jobs unfit for their bachelor's degree education. Perhaps if we encouraged students to explore a variety of opportunities they wouldn't feel like they need to a get a BA just to have it under their belt.

I also NEVER said let's cut pell grants. When did I ever say that? Never. I said...we need stricter requirements with more control, since this is government money being given out, let's make sure the kids are being responsible with it and using it appropriately. I think you're just taking it personally because you received pell grants yourself and...coincidently you're a psych major. Obviously you're a good example of someone who used to funds appropriately, got a bachelor's degree with a plan in mind. Good for you! You're a model student for this system. A lot aren't. My original point from the beginning was, let's have more control.

Special snowflake? Again, you don't know me. Please read my argument a little more carefully before you start making assumptions about me. Some of your fellow, older, "10,000+" posters was agreeing with my suggestions since it seems like everyone on here is quick to call anyone with a pre-pharm status a special snowflake.

And FYI just because it sounds like you think I'm money-hungry and not wanting to help people, I worked as a biotech/pharma recruiter for about a year...took a year off school cuz I was broke and it sounded like a good opportunity... tons of room for growth, seasoned recruiters make a looot of money (I never stuck around long enough to reach that point) but I hated my job, because it wasn't rewarding and I didn't feel like I was helping anyone. Decided to go back to school and finish my degree and enter healthcare despite all the cost and time it would take. I'm such a horrible, horrible person.

I never got a pell grant. I didn't have a plan. I also didn't bother to read the rest of your diatribe. lol

Just remember that "I grew up poor and I worked hard" is n=1 just the same as "I know a poor person who is lazy."

I don't have statistics, and I'm not sure that anyone does, but I do believe that there is a great deal of fact to what pharmasaur is saying. I would not doubt that on average, students from poor families perform less well than those in middle or upper classes. Not necessarily laziness, but maybe they don't have a working computer, reliable transportation, etc. Maybe they are not intentionally lazy, but were never taught about having a good work ethic.

Is it wise use of resources to pour all of this money onto those who are set up for failure? If you barely made it through high school, what are the odds that you'll make it through college? I grew up in a poor neighborhood, and I am one of very few that didn't drop out of college. Many, as pharmasaur said, went for 3-5 years, took general classes, nothing to make a degree out of, performed below average, and generally had a lot of fun. Of course this is a generalization, I'm sure plenty of students work hard with this opportunity that they are given, but what is the rate that we accept? Ten partiers for one good student? Twenty, thirty?

Merit based seems to be the way to go. From my experience, academic scholarships rarely cover the full cost of attendance. I had the highest scholarships my college offered in undergrad, and still had to take out loans to cover the difference. Why is a highly performing student still on the hook for those loans? Make it so the best and brightest don't have to pay, while the others, if they are truly interested, will pay or take loans to attend. If they aren't interested in earning an education, they aren't going to waste anyone's time or money by going through the motions for a little while until they quit. Being financially invested in something is an incentive for hard work. If you're paying for something, you should value it. This goes back to that argument about $0 copays. Who cares if you skip class? You didn't pay for tuition anyway, no skin off your back. The high performers who would be getting a free ride have already demonstrated work ethic, so this isn't an issue for them.

Those that say "you drop out, you pay it back" may be true for mid-semester dropouts, but I don't think it is the case if you simply decide not to register for classes. Maybe laws have changed, maybe there is a loophole that my childhood friends know about, but when they said "I'm just gonna take this semester off" and never returned, they didn't receive any sort of bill.


inb4 "you hate the poor, you dirty bigot" and "we should give them all our money so they aren't poor anymore"

Originally Posted by Eichhoernchen

This is insane! Where is this country going to? College tuition is so ridiculously expensive even at state schools... it sucks they're depriving us of opportunities to receive those loans. I think I'll be living under a bridge after graduation.

LOL...America is the ONLY country that offers student loans at all. Most other countries either your family paids for it or you don't go.

Originally Posted by SHC1984

LOL...America is the ONLY country that offers student loans at all. Most other countries either your family paids for it or you don't go.

Or the government pays for it...

Originally Posted by pharmasaur

what bothers me the most is that they're adding those funds to the pell grants, aka, sorry to say, but those low income kids who go to college and never end up finishing their degree. how do i know this? i go to a poor state school where most people get free ride financial aid and if you look at our stats we have a 40% graduation rate =O

just pisses me off because i never got financial aid and i busted my ass to graduate in 3 years, took 24-26 units/quarter, worked part time, and my roommates partied, took it easy, stayed an extra 5th year just for the hell of it, even studied abroad, because the school paid for it! wtf.

[/rant]

You should feel lucky that your parents are wealthy enough that you don't qualify for that. LOL... Getting a pell grant or letting your parents pay for undergrad is about the same to me.

Originally Posted by owlegrad

Or the government pays for it...

I never heard of that. I just know in any Asian countries either your parents pay for your education or you don't have one. I have never heard of student loans till I move to America.

The point I am making is I think America has always been an extremely GENEROUS country. The government does NOT have to give out pell grants, student loans, free handouts, medicaid, etc. etc. They are VERY GENEROUS to do so. They do not have to at all. They could easily be like all the other countries and make your family responsible for coming up with the money to fund your education.

I do not see why people are complaining on here when the government in this country is the most generous one of all. LOL..I don't know of a second country to give out as much free handouts as this country. Other countries actually expect their citizens to work for themselves.

Yes, I can kinda see how it is unfair that some get free handouts and other do not and it use to annoy the hell out of me too...but honestly, if your family is wealthy enough to fund your education and you do NOT qualify for aid...then you are pretty lucky too...Yeah you don't get any free handouts but you really don't need it either! haha...That's how I see it now anyways.

Originally Posted by SHC1984

I never heard of that. I just know in any Asian countries either your parents pay for your education or you don't have one. I have never heard of student loans till I move to America.

Except for...you know...the LARGEST Asian country.

PS: higher education is free in many, many countries.

Originally Posted by SHC1984

That's how I see it now anyways.

Sniff, sniff, our little girl is growing up. Sorta.

Originally Posted by SHC1984

You should feel lucky that your parents are wealthy enough that you don't qualify for that. LOL... Getting a pell grant or letting your parents pay for undergrad is about the same to me.

HA! I wish my parents were wealthy enough. My school's cost of attendance is $20k, my parents do not have that lying around.That's what I was saying about the middle class getting hit by a bus. My parents are not "wealthy". We lived in an apartment til I was 12 until my parents were able to afford a house, which they bought when houses were a good price long ago. My parents didn't have kids til past 30 because they couldn't afford it...heck, my dad had my sister when he was 40. As a result my parents are pretty old compared to my friends...yet even though my dad is past 65 he still works 6 days a week and he's had the same clothes since like 1990. We've taken one "fly somewhere" family vacation in the 24 years I've been alive. I'm grateful for what we have but we're not wealthy. I never wanted to burden my parents with my tuition, or take out unsub loans (I did take sub loans though) so I work myself to death and take 24 units/semester to avoid paying an extra year. But at least I can say I've learned to manage money, be truly independent, and value my education...because it comes out of my pocket

Balancing the budget on the back of the young....................Old people vote. Young people don't. This is a fact. So if you are going to screw over someone...you screw over the young....because they won't vote you out of office.

Originally Posted by xiphoid2010

The difference is that in-state tuition is applied equally to all in-state students regardless of income, kind of like K-12 system. This is very much different from a need based financial aid.

But I have always been a believer of meritocracy. I like traditional chinese education system: the top students get an university education and it's free, above average students gets community college, the rest go directly into the workforce. Not very nice for sure, but it works.

Then go back to China.....

I don't mean to blunt, but that is the biggest load of horse excrement I have heard in a long time, I was clearly a mediocre student in High School. But because my dad died when I was 13 and I was dirt poor, I had fully subsidized education for 4 years. By the time I got to Pharmacy School, I shined. I graduated with honors and won the clinical award. By your definition and the definition of my junior high guidance counselor I should have gone to trade school.

The difference is America, poor kids like me get the opportunity to succeed. My great grandfather came here 100 years ago and three generations later after a college education, I make six figures. That only happens in the USA. It does not happen in China or Germany or anywhere else.

Just because some people will not succeed and just because some people will take advantage and abuse government assistance, does not mean we should make a simple meritocracy.

Originally Posted by Ackj

Just remember that "I grew up poor and I worked hard" is n=1 just the same as "I know a poor person who is lazy."

I don't have statistics, and I'm not sure that anyone does, but I do believe that there is a great deal of fact to what pharmasaur is saying. I would not doubt that on average, students from poor families perform less well than those in middle or upper classes. Not necessarily laziness, but maybe they don't have a working computer, reliable transportation, etc. Maybe they are not intentionally lazy, but were never taught about having a good work ethic.

Is it wise use of resources to pour all of this money onto those who are set up for failure? If you barely made it through high school, what are the odds that you'll make it through college? I grew up in a poor neighborhood, and I am one of very few that didn't drop out of college. Many, as pharmasaur said, went for 3-5 years, took general classes, nothing to make a degree out of, performed below average, and generally had a lot of fun. Of course this is a generalization, I'm sure plenty of students work hard with this opportunity that they are given, but what is the rate that we accept? Ten partiers for one good student? Twenty, thirty?

Merit based seems to be the way to go. From my experience, academic scholarships rarely cover the full cost of attendance. I had the highest scholarships my college offered in undergrad, and still had to take out loans to cover the difference. Why is a highly performing student still on the hook for those loans? Make it so the best and brightest don't have to pay, while the others, if they are truly interested, will pay or take loans to attend. If they aren't interested in earning an education, they aren't going to waste anyone's time or money by going through the motions for a little while until they quit. Being financially invested in something is an incentive for hard work. If you're paying for something, you should value it. This goes back to that argument about $0 copays. Who cares if you skip class? You didn't pay for tuition anyway, no skin off your back. The high performers who would be getting a free ride have already demonstrated work ethic, so this isn't an issue for them.

Those that say "you drop out, you pay it back" may be true for mid-semester dropouts, but I don't think it is the case if you simply decide not to register for classes. Maybe laws have changed, maybe there is a loophole that my childhood friends know about, but when they said "I'm just gonna take this semester off" and never returned, they didn't receive any sort of bill.


inb4 "you hate the poor, you dirty bigot" and "we should give them all our money so they aren't poor anymore"

The regulation here is that if you drop out, you pay for that semester. If I take a semester off, I don't get a bill either because I'm not taking classes; so
, can you clarify what you meant by that?

I don't think you're a dirty bigot and you make some valid points; however, many students from disadvantaged backgrounds don't have the tools to succeed from the start (as you pointed out). I don't know about you but my high school didn't adequately prepare me for college. Already inner city students are at a handicap from an academic perspective. Then there are added factors- parent involvement, safe learning environment, ample resources, language barriers (and I'm not talking immigrant children here...many American students barely know how to read/write), and several more.

If schools transitioned strictly to a meritocracy, students from situations as I described above are just not going to be up to par academically to get merit based scholarships, at least not at first. Why did your friends drop out? You really believe it was only the partying? Why are those students partying/drinking more than others to begin with? Just food for thought.

As I mentioned to pharmsaur, our government should be focused on the root of the problem..not limiting student success after the fact. They should be looking at programs that reach out to inner city and poor families. They should be improving our education system to prepare children to be competitive in a global economy. They should quit pushing every student to go to college and put more emphasis on vocational programs. Those are good careers. Some people don't want to sit through four years of a liberal arts degree just to get a 30-40K job in a cubicle...or worse yet, work as a barista, which is becoming more common in this economy.

With pharmsaur, I took issue withhis blanket generalizations and his seemingly caustic attitude toward an entire group of people, although he had some good points underneath all that. Not to mention his addition of "Yo".

I'm tired of people coming into this forum complaining about how they work so hard and others don't. It's the same for health care...people complaining how their patients don't speak english, ask "dumb" questions, are on medicaid, etc etc.

We are health care professionals. Most of us came into ths profession because we wanted a decent paying career that would allow us to do something goodfor society at the same time. As part of that, we are supposed to be advocating for our patients, helping them, educating them. This doesn't mean we should be bending over for every little thing but we should at least try to understand others. We need to have open minds and be ready to challenge our own beliefs. I learn a lot of things from my patients that I won't learn in pharmacy school. I just have to pay attention.

I have respect for those retail pharmacists who really try to succeed at helping patients and go above and beyond counting red or blue pills. You have to be able to adapt to different people literally one minute to the next. and you have to realize that not everyone is as fortunate...it's the same for education.

Everyone needs a chance at life. It sucks people take advantage of a broken system but it will happen in some form or another no matter how many regulations you draft. Fix the root of the problem. That's the key. Be a part of that.

Originally Posted by Old Timer

Just because some people will not succeed and just because some people will take advantage and abuse government assistance, does not mean we should make a simple meritocracy.

Please don't get all emotional on me. Reasoning and logic should not be based on or be changed by sob stories. I can tell you plenty of stories where Chinese went from dirt poor to millionaires within a single generation, several in my own family. This happens in US as well as in China. Don't attribute hard work and opportunities to race or country.

Education is a system, just like healthcare, welfare, retirement or any other system. A good and efficient system's goal is to the benefit of the country, not the benefits of a few or catch all outliers.

What I find this country lacks is the stomach to sustain a few casualties in pursuit of a better system. This is a main reason why we have systems that produce poorer outcomes and somehow cost way more than other countries.

Originally Posted by xiphoid2010

Please don't get all emotional on me. Reasoning and logic should not be based on or be changed by sob stories.

The education is a system, just like healthcare, welfare, retirement or any other system. A good and efficient system's goal is to the benefit of the country, not the benefits of a few or catch all outliers.

What I find this country lacks is the stomach to sustain a few casualties in pursuit of a better system. This is a main reason why we have systems that produce poorer outcomes and somehow cost way more than other countries.

Yet we boast the best universities in the world where thousands of Chinese students eagerly come here to study.....puts a big ass hole in your theory doesn't it. Really....if its so great why don't you go back? I've lived abroad in a system where college education so coveted where entrance exam score pretty much determined the fate of rest of your life.

I tell you what...if you really believe its the better system, why don't you put your baby through it? If you really believe what you're saying action speaks louder than words.

Originally Posted by xiphoid2010

What I find this country lacks is the stomach to sustain a few casualties in pursuit of a better system. This is a main reason why we have systems that produce poorer outcomes and somehow cost way more than other countries.

Man......you have a long way to go..

Originally Posted by Its Z

Yet we boast the best universities in the world where thousands of Chinese students eagerly come here to study.....puts a big ass hole in your theory doesn't it. Really....if its so great why don't you go back? I've lived abroad in a system where college education so coveted where entrance exam score pretty much determined the fate of rest of your life.

I tell you what...if you really believe its the better system, why don't you put your baby through it? If you really believe what you're saying action speaks louder than words.

I'm not denying the US is wealthy and have a lot of money. Sure there are some really world class universities. Europe has several, but their system doesn't run a massive student loan debt. So how does that put a hole in my argument?

Why can't everyone focus on the issue? Instead it's trying to defend nationality? And the 'why don't you go back' argument is silly when you know perfectly well it's asking a US trained pharmacist to work with traditional Chinese medicine, after he has forgotten most of the Chinese he learned as a kid.

Originally Posted by Its Z

Man......you have a long way to go..

How long has the endless debate been going on capital hill? All the interest groups and lobbies all trying to milk the system for their own benefit. Mean while we are running up debt like crazy and the hard decisions are not being made.

how irritating... my parents' income is ~100k and i have five siblings, yet i finished my undergrad at a UC being 60k in debt. i finished in THREE years and now this THING comes up right when i'm about to start pharmacy school. the middle class is really being hit hard. i'm predicting i will be close to being 300k in debt by the time i graduate due to the new policy [assuming i don't pay off any part of my loan while going to school]. great. if i could do it all over again, i would go for engineering. oh well, just gotta keep moving forward lol.

Massive student loan debt at least provides opportunity to many not necessarily top performing students to attain education otherwise would not be available in meritocracy. To eliminate education debt by voiding educational opportunities is one of the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Don't get into debt....so no college for you. You're an education nazi

Originally Posted by xiphoid2010

How long has the endless debate been going on capital hill? All the interest groups and lobbies all trying to milk the system for their own benefit. Mean while we are running up debt like crazy and the hard decisions are not being made.

Hard decision of only letting the top students go to college and shut down the rest and create a meritocracy educational system. Oh yeah.....that's it.

Whenever someone start trying calling people Nazi in a debate, you know there is no longer room for rational argument.

Originally Posted by xiphoid2010

Whenever someone start trying calling people Nazi in a debate, you know there is no longer room for rational argument.

Exactly. You can't defend supporting elimination of education opportunity to prevent education debt. Just say your opinion was wrong and move on.

And obviously you completely missed my analogy of soup kitchen nazi no soup for you to education nazi saying no education for you.

Originally Posted by pharmasaur

HA! I wish my parents were wealthy enough. My school's cost of attendance is $20k, my parents do not have that lying around.That's what I was saying about the middle class getting hit by a bus. My parents are not "wealthy". We lived in an apartment til I was 12 until my parents were able to afford a house, which they bought when houses were a good price long ago. My parents didn't have kids til past 30 because they couldn't afford it...heck, my dad had my sister when he was 40. As a result my parents are pretty old compared to my friends...yet even though my dad is past 65 he still works 6 days a week and he's had the same clothes since like 1990. We've taken one "fly somewhere" family vacation in the 24 years I've been alive. I'm grateful for what we have but we're not wealthy. I never wanted to burden my parents with my tuition, or take out unsub loans (I did take sub loans though) so I work myself to death and take 24 units/semester to avoid paying an extra year. But at least I can say I've learned to manage money, be truly independent, and value my education...because it comes out of my pocket

Why didn't you go to your state school? My parents couldn't afford to send me to Duke or Wake Forest b/c there are 3 kids in my family and those schools cost around 40K a year!

I went to a public school that cost like 4K a year! UNC's tuition is around 4K or 5K a year...if you have gone to a public school your parents should be able to pay for that. Middle class families can't afford private schools or ivy leagues out of pocket, but public schools are very affordable.

I agree it is hardest for the middle class, but we just have to look for ways to conserve and save money (by going to public schools for one.)

I would have LOVE to attend Wake Forest or Duke for undergrad, but my family couldn't afford that out of pocket either! It is unfair b/c I got into Wake Forest AND Cornell!!!!!! I couldn't go b/c my family isn't rich enough!

Originally Posted by owlegrad

Sniff, sniff, our little girl is growing up. Sorta.

I see it from both sides now....I can still see why the upper middle class do NOT like paying extra high taxes out of their pockets (they pay a higher percentage than lower class people) yet they GET NO free handouts. No pell grants, No medicaid, No aid for college.

I mean that is obviously unfair and they are going to bitch. They are paying the HIGHER taxes yet they don't get any benefit from the taxes they are paying...of course they are going to bitch about it!

So there are no poor kids at wake forest and duke?

Originally Posted by All4MyDaughter

Except for...you know...the LARGEST Asian country.

PS: higher education is free in many, many countries.

Russia? Sorry I forgot about them! lol...

Originally Posted by Its Z

So there are no poor kids at wake forest and duke?

I have NO idea about Duke b/c I got waitlisted there! LOL....

Wake Forest I only know a few people that go there and they are all from upper middle class family. (Parents both lawyers or parents both doctors etc.)

I would say it's mostly for upper middle class children, but I am not sure.

I could have gone there but I would have to look for money somewhere...my family can only afford to pay 10K max a year for my undergrad. We are not rich at all.

so as a pharmacist, figure out how to become super rich [millionaire], or, make the avg. salary but have 10+ kids so they qualify as low-income and get free college money [one spouse will stay home to care for the kids].

Originally Posted by 74777

so as a pharmacist, figure out how to become super rich [millionaire], or, make the avg. salary but have 10+ kids so they qualify as low-income and get free handouts [one spouse will stay home to care for the kids].

I just want to have one kid so I can afford to give him or her the best education possible from K to med school. And pay for all the tennis lessons and music lessons etc.

Kids are too damn expensive. One is more than enough. Maybe I can become Harvard Mom one day? hehe...