The Politics/Culture of Publishing

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I am looking for some insight into others' experiences with publishing. I am in a transition period between a master's program and a PhD program, with a couple of in-progress projects that are approaching manuscript status. Both are first author, one is based on my defended master's thesis and the other is an independent project at another university that is geographically far away and unrelated to my master's (or upcoming PhD) degree. The thesis project has been fairly straight forward, with the suggestion that work on the manuscript will begin this summer under my chair/adviser's close mentorship. The thesis itself was highly driven by my chair/adviser, as it was based on archival data.

The other project is one that I conceptualized and collected data for on my own, although under close guidance (using real in-person subjects, not just surveys). The logistics of this project are such that I am not only geographically separated from the prof (and one other grad student lab member) I worked with, but it is also a program that I applied to and will not be attending. It is an experimental program while my experience has been much more practice-oriented. With this project, I am a little lost on how to proceed, as on top of all of this I get the sense that I'm at the mercy of my mentor's direction. I am not as statistically skilled as my mentor's graduate students, so my own simpler ideas on how to interpret the data are not well received. All of these things make this project challenging. (I have, however, thought about waiting until I start my PhD program and utilizing my new adviser's help in writing a manuscript.)

I have a close friend who is a PhD in another, closely related, social science field. After expressing the above frustrations, I was encouraged to take the initiative and write up my results of this second project on my own and publish it, no matter what my mentor says. However, I cannot convince my friend that my field seems different--the process of my thesis, for example, was very closely directed by my chair/adviser.

What are others' experiences with publishing in this way? Do you find that, as a student, you are able to jump in and analyze/write in an independent way? Am I being too passive by interpreting this process as needing the guidance of the PhD professor who is above me? Or is independence encouraged and important? What if I am not skilled enough and need the mentorship? I don't want to step out of line OR waste my time by writing up something on my own without guidance!

Thanks in advance for any insight or tips.

I think that getting published is the most difficult thing that I have ever tried to do and I would not want to submit an MS all by myself. Just me though, YMMV.

I'm actually glad I'm not the only one. I can't imagine doing it alone, either. Is this common from what you've seen with others, too?

Yeah, I think so. I've actually tried to publish projects I developed myself (with guidance of course) and people told me even that was taking the more difficult route.

I am all for strong research training, but I have found the process of writing manuscripts and publishing to be a wholly unrewarding experience. For me, it carried absolutely no incentives/reinforces. With clinical work, at least I somewhat enjoy the sound of my own voice.

I think it varies by project. I strongly prefer to collaborate and learn from my mentor when working on manuscripts, though it's nice that there's now some shift in responsibility to me as I've gained more skills. I think it's normal that some projects will feel overwhelming without some help. I'd focus on the project that you're comfortable with and push off the harder one until you are in grad school Maybe you can candidly discuss the situation with the second pub with your new mentor and decide together on the best path to proceed. If the second project's advisor isn't making it priority, I might be inclined to say that you intend on writing it up, but given that you're starting a new program soon, you want to delay some analyses until late fall. Eventually you'll want to have a serious discussion about how to proceed with it, but I'll bet you have enough on your plate at the moment!

Originally Posted by PsychPhDStudent

I'd focus on the project that you're comfortable with and push off the harder one until you are in grad school Maybe you can candidly discuss the situation with the second pub with your new mentor and decide together on the best path to proceed. If the second project's advisor isn't making it priority, I might be inclined to say that you intend on writing it up, but given that you're starting a new program soon, you want to delay some analyses until late fall. Eventually you'll want to have a serious discussion about how to proceed with it, but I'll bet you have enough on your plate at the moment!

This is great advice, thanks. I do feel as though I'm still in limbo, so once I get settled in my program I'll know better if I can pull more pubs out of my data set with my new adviser (or find a way to collaborate with the original mentor). My second project's mentor definitely isn't making it a priority, which is why my friend was questioning why I was waiting for their direction/involvement. I do feel that I still need some help, if for nothing else than it seems that my mentor will need to approve what I submit. I do get the sense that our field frowns upon graduate students publishing stuff all on their own, that it would not be accepted at a decent journal (which is the point, after all). I respect the process that is in place. Wait I shall...

I'm a bit confused. The second project you ran was with collaborators at another university, and your MA mentor was not involved in any way? I just want to make sure I understood correctly since at least at most institutions, I'm not sure how it would even have been possible for you to get things through the IRB without a faculty member signing off, so I'm thinking I misunderstood.

How this should be handled varies by lab and I guess I'm not entirely clear what the issue is. If its just the stats...ask your collaborator at the other university and/or his grad students for guidance on the stats. Either consult with them, get syntax, or even send them the dataset...however you need to do it.

If you are stuck I certainly think it can be helpful to have close guidance. I come from a lab where that just doesn't happen, so I may be biased, but I also think its fine to show independence. I disagree that one "needs" a faculty member to publish, I think it just depends on the students and the project. Peer review is often blinded so reviewers may not even know. Certainly, some students require extensive guidance to produce something publishable. Others do not. It also depends what tier journal you are shooting for...Abnormal? Yeah, that's probably going to be pretty tough to pull off solo. If the goal is just a line on the CV, its not hard to publish. There are tons of journals and many aren't picky. Quality pubs in good journals are difficult - if this has the potential to make it into one, I'd be proactive and get the help you need to make that happen (wherever it may come from).

In contrast to erg, I will also add that I get wayyyy more satisfaction from pubs than from clinical work. I find it too easy/tempting to attribute clinical outcomes to the patient's work, regression to the mean, or just emotional support. Research activities I can take more direct responsibility for the outcomes. To each their own.

Originally Posted by Ollie123

I'm a bit confused. The second project you ran was with collaborators at another university, and your MA mentor was not involved in any way? I just want to make sure I understood correctly since at least at most institutions, I'm not sure how it would even have been possible for you to get things through the IRB without a faculty member signing off, so I'm thinking I misunderstood.

I know it's confusing. Yes, the second project is at another university and was completely independent of my graduate school (MA) program. I did it to get extra research experience, basically. And, yes, at the 'other' university I was mentored by an asst. prof. and obtained IRB approval at that school.

Thanks for your info. My gut instinct was that this process is much more complicated than my friend made it seem. You made a really good point about choosing which journal to publish in--I guess that is what I was getting at, because there's no way I could publish in a high impact journal at this time with the remedial statistical skills that I have (which is why I am pursuing a PhD, so I can learn). I'm shooting for a medium-impact journal at this point, really. I don't just want a pub for the sake of a pub. I acknowledge that I need guidance for that. I refuse to claim that I am an expert at this point in my schooling/career and I hope that that is a coveted characteristic (rather than being on the other side of the spectrum and closer to a stubborn, even if uber-productive, narcissist).

It's not really complicated IMO, just really difficult. You think that you have a good manuscript and then people tear it to shreds. Not to mention then you have to revise your paper and figure out where else to submit it, which may involve changing the formatting or cutting words out of it. And it will suck the first few times, but eventually you get used to rejection. Now I barely blink an eye when a paper is rejected, although it's like "aw man, now I have to spend more time addressing these issues."

Originally Posted by Psychadelic2012

I was encouraged to take the initiative and write up my results of this second project on my own and publish it, no matter what my mentor says. However, I cannot convince my friend that my field seems different--the process of my thesis, for example, was very closely directed by my chair/adviser.

Hi Psychadelic,

I've published in my social science field, but not yours, so for what it's worth:

I think there's also a political/interpersonal component to taking the data and running with it on your own (even if you collected the data and generated the ideas behind your project yourself). I've seem faculty mentors insist on co-authorship credit for projects such as the one you describe. Mostly this seems to happen if the mentor is coming up for tenure, or is an older faculty member who hasn't been generating his/her work recently, but it still happens. Taking your own data and solo-authoring might damage your relationship with the faculty member/team. There are relatively objective criteria for co-authorship listing (did Person X make a substantive intellectual contribution to the work, rather than simply providing labor like data entry?; can s/he defend the work? etc.), but that's not necessarily relevant to how Mentor X will take the news that you published solo. Depends in part on what you want the future relationship to be, how likely Former Mentor is to be helpful/harmful to your future, his/her temperament, etc. I've seen classy mentors provide substantial help and decline co-authorship, but I've also seen the reverse. If you want to hear more, feel free to PM me, though today's a mess, so I probably can't reply until tomorrow.

I'd also suggest:

--having multiple people read your work prior to submission
--being strategic about what journal(s) to target for your submission

I'd also suggest working on the project over the summer, and not counting on having time in the fall. I made the mistake of using my summer before my PhD program to get my ya-yas out (travel, relocate, etc.). If I could go back, I'd bone up on stats, develop my research proposals, get a jump on the program. I counted too much on "being taught," but let's just say that not all profs are hired for their teaching ability...

Good luck and congrats on your research and grad admission!

Thanks, wig. To be clear, I was definitely taking the cautious side here, while my friend was very much encouraging me to publish on my own. I respect the politics of staying under the wing of my mentor, if this pub is going to occur, because it has been shown to me that this is how it works in my mentor's lab. That's fine because I never questioned it before, but it was a disagreement between my friend and me. I just needed to check in with people in my field to make sure I wasn't crazy!

As for the summer, I actually start my program in late summer, so right now I'm in the midst of planning the move, as well as finishing my master's. So, yes, a little work now will happen and it will continue slowly on all of my pending projects. I'm sure more will be added come fall as well. As an aside, I wish I could bone up on stats effectively on my own, but I've had such horrendous statistical training that I don't even know where to start--it's been a mishmosh from the beginning, which sucks. I think I'm destined to continue to be thrown around that mixing bowl, without a clear idea of what I'm doing. Thank goodness I'm a great writer .

Originally Posted by Psychadelic2012

Thanks, wig. To be clear, I was definitely taking the cautious side here, while my friend was very much encouraging me to publish on my own. I respect the politics of staying under the wing of my mentor, if this pub is going to occur, because it has been shown to me that this is how it works in my mentor's lab. That's fine because I never questioned it before, but it was a disagreement between my friend and me. I just needed to check in with people in my field to make sure I wasn't crazy!

As for the summer, I actually start my program in late summer, so right now I'm in the midst of planning the move, as well as finishing my master's. So, yes, a little work now will happen and it will continue slowly on all of my pending projects. I'm sure more will be added come fall as well. As an aside, I wish I could bone up on stats effectively on my own, but I've had such horrendous statistical training that I don't even know where to start--it's been a mishmosh from the beginning, which sucks. I think I'm destined to continue to be thrown around that mixing bowl, without a clear idea of what I'm doing. Thank goodness I'm a great writer .

Of course--I hope I didn't imply I thought you'd be rash/inappropriate etc. I think if anything I was trying to underscore that faculty can be selfish, mercurial. In any case, I hope it works out well.

As for your friend in another field, I'm sure s/he's a good egg (or s/he wouldn't be your friend), but I've found similar things: academics I know get locked into the culture of their own fields (or subfields, or departments) and have a tough time understanding that others might do things differently.

Lastly, I feel you on the poor stats training thing. For me, it didn't get any better at the doctoral level--big disappointment.

Originally Posted by wigflip

Of course--I hope I didn't imply I thought you'd be rash/inappropriate etc. I think if anything I was trying to underscore that faculty can be selfish, mercurial. In any case, I hope it works out well.

No, no, no, of course not. I just realized that I may have miscommunicated and wanted to clarify. I do not own the idea of being an outlaw!