DO title voting page.

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Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

They are not granted MDs. Also a DO does not need an MD as their title comes with all of the same privileges

Correction to my previous post - the ones that do have 2 years of medical school as a part of the 6 year residency. This is not the same.

Originally Posted by Dharma

That actually makes sense, being that it does explain things a bit better for the public (i.e. easier to understand and it's better marketing) and does not include any notion of a merger- a merger that will not happen in the foreseeable future. The powers that be will be replaced by those with similar perspectives, so I wouldn't expect any drastic changes in the ways of the old guard.

I actually do agree with the OMD argument. For the simple fact that it does include 'medical' in its title. However, I also think that this will never come about either...

Originally Posted by DrMaximus

I actually do agree with the OMD argument. For the simple fact that it does include 'medical' in its title. However, I also think that this will never come about either...

I don't see the point of switching from one "seperate but equal" degree to another. The general public would be even more confused about who we are and what we do.

Originally Posted by DrMaximus

I actually do agree with the OMD argument. For the simple fact that it does include 'medical' in its title. However, I also think that this will never come about either...

OMD is already taken as Doctor of Oriental Medicine (O.M.D.)

you can get one online here : http://www.altmedworld.net/oriental-...md-program.htm

Stick with plain old D.O

I think this discussion can detract from our credibility as a group when examining other issues such as expansion of residency funding and seeking dual accreditation for post-graduate training programs. It's all semantics and I'm not sure why people choose to obsess about MD vs. DO in this day and age.

We do the same job because we receive the same training after medical school and receive the same medical licenses. Your medical degree has little to do with it-indeed, you can't even practice medicine with only this.

It's like arguing over who would be the better biologist between two individuals from comparable schools. One school offered a BS in biology, the other a BA. The discussion is moot because they'd both be horrible biologists without proper postgraduate training in a PhD program. This sdn circlejerk is the same.

That was a great post, well said.

Originally Posted by munchymanRX

I think this discussion can detract from our credibility as a group when examining other issues such as expansion of residency funding and seeking dual accreditation for post-graduate training programs. It's all semantics and I'm not sure why people choose to obsess about MD vs. DO in this day and age.

We do the same job because we receive the same training after medical school and receive the same medical licenses. Your medical degree has little to do with it-indeed, you can't even practice medicine with only this.

It's like arguing over who would be the better biologist between two individuals from comparable schools. One school offered a BS in biology, the other a BA. The discussion is moot because they'd both be horrible biologists without proper postgraduate training in a PhD program. This sdn circlejerk is the same.

Agree to a degree I don't think there's anything wrong with a discussion. Better to shoot the $hit about it here than anywhere else. Arguing... now that's a waste. But it's still good to express opinions and see other people's perspectives. Without the discussion, I wouldn't have been able to read what you wrote... and I'm glad I did

Originally Posted by Dharma

Agree to a degree I don't think there's anything wrong with a discussion. Better to shoot the $hit about it here than anywhere else. Arguing... now that's a waste. But it's still good to express opinions and see other people's perspectives. Without the discussion, I wouldn't have been able to read what you wrote... and I'm glad I did

yes. too often people in these forums try to extend a point made into a post and assume someone is trying to prove superiority or inferiority of one group or another. I get accused of this very often when honestly I am just discussing the facts as I see them and offering an interpretation. There is a fine line between argument and discussion, but it is all context..... i'm a firm believer that everything is worth discussing if there are alternative views and no expressed view in intrinsically offensive (NONE!) the offense comes in its interpretation by another.

Lets face it, both sides of the fence have their pride. DOs, for whatever reason, like to preach how holistic their practice idea is (sometimes it is very holistic, and that is fine if your practice is focused that way, but many times it is not any different), and MDs like to think they are better than DOs because their schools have a higher grade point and MCAT admissions standard with no course retake grade replacement policy. Nowadays, everyone knows the training is almost identical and DOs practice in every specialty as MDs and have now for many many years. If it were up to me, I would try to get others to think about the patient and confusion factor. Granite most patients aren't going to ask about credentials, whether seeing a podiatrist, dentist, optometrist or an allopathic or osteopathic trained medical doctor (to them they are just "the doctor"), but some will, and some might be confused about it, and some might even spread rumors about it. There is a reason why many of the more public osteopathic medical doctors have whole pages on their website to talk about the training philosophy of DOs. When a patient is getting a serious procedure done, yes they may be investigating the credentials quite a bit on doctor websites. I think validating equivalency, especially in a non OMM practice for instance, is fine, and should be done, as the bottom line is the patient wants to know if DO is basically the same as MD. Maybe in all cases it is good to explain them both? It is unfortunate though that this needs to be done, where other degree types in the medical field need no explanatory notes. Why split up two bodies of medicine if they claim so much similarity? Is it pride? Why confuse the patient? Merging osteopathic and allopathic schools into one degree name would be a fine option. In this case OMM would be an option for everybody. Another option is keeping both degrees under the same body, like VDM and DVM, DDS and DMD, and so on in other professions. Senior doctors would never question competency on something as simple as a degree name, and only consider the residency training, skill, and knowledge of the professional. Patients don't always have the luxury to not only be informed, but really understand whats going on. Do we really need this separation either between degree name or more importantly medical bodies for the sake of pride?

Originally Posted by ShyRem

I am surprised in all this talk about titles why no one has brought up that some of the foreign grads are granted an MBBS degree in their country which is "converted" to an MD degree when they take their USMLEs and enter residency here in the states. They do not go through an MD degree granting school. I have asked about this and was informed that they got the MD to avoid "confusion". I do not know how accurate this information was as I got it from the foreign grad I asked directly.

This I feel to be a very good point. I think the "confusion" factor is what doctors should be considering. This is someone treating the human body, the most important of professions, and should be simply understood, with no extenuating communication needed. MBBS, a bachelor of medicine and surgery, was given the MD title, because that's what they are, a doctor. If confusion was not ever important, they wouldn't have done this. The segregation of bodies of medicine in the US is not necessary in my opinion.

People recommend changing it to mDO, MDO, DOm, etc. I think the DO degree having history of over 100 years and recognized by many is perfectly fine. I notice the further you get in training, the less relevant MD vs DO is.

While I don't really care about MD v. DO..... SDN could take a step towards ending the divide by eliminating the allopathic/osteopathic thread differences and then just have a sub forum about OMM (which is honestly the biggest difference more than anything else)

Why not just one section "pre-med" and one section "med students"

They don't have different threads for AOA vs ACGME residencies? Why do we need different ones for med school/premed

And this might actually have an effect on things because lets be honest, premeds take anything they read on SDN like Gospel...... if we started showing them we are one profession it could go a long way

Not to mention cutting down on the obnoxious number of MD vs DO threads, come on people - just pick a school you like and go there

Can I get a MOD opinion on this?

needed to make a pseudo name for that one?

Originally Posted by Newusername

While I don't really care about MD v. DO..... SDN could take a step towards ending the divide by eliminating the allopathic/osteopathic thread differences and then just have a sub forum about OMM (which is honestly the biggest difference more than anything else)

Why not just one section "pre-med" and one section "med students"

They don't have different threads for AOA vs ACGME residencies? Why do we need different ones for med school/premed

And this might actually have an effect on things because lets be honest, premeds take anything they read on SDN like Gospel...... if we started showing them we are one profession it could go a long way

Not to mention cutting down on the obnoxious number of MD vs DO threads, come on people - just pick a school you like and go there

Can I get a MOD opinion on this?

The next thing you know the Naturopaths will want to be included, and it's just all downhill from there. Rabble, Rabble.

Originally Posted by Newusername

While I don't really care about MD v. DO..... SDN could take a step towards ending the divide by eliminating the allopathic/osteopathic thread differences and then just have a sub forum about OMM (which is honestly the biggest difference more than anything else)

Why not just one section "pre-med" and one section "med students"

They don't have different threads for AOA vs ACGME residencies? Why do we need different ones for med school/premed

And this might actually have an effect on things because lets be honest, premeds take anything they read on SDN like Gospel...... if we started showing them we are one profession it could go a long way

Not to mention cutting down on the obnoxious number of MD vs DO threads, come on people - just pick a school you like and go there

Can I get a MOD opinion on this?

I would disagree with this at the pre-med level since many undergrads don't even know that Osteopathic medicine exists. Also, pre-allo sucks thanks to the trolls and gunner kids. I wouldn't want Pre-Osteo ruined.

Originally Posted by crmellon

The next thing you know the Naturopaths will want to be included, and it's just all downhill from there. Rabble, Rabble.

I'm sorry..... how does consolidating the forums for two more or less equivalent legitimate medical degrees and creating a subforum for the major difference (OMM) have anything to do with creating a forum for a group of psuedoscience quacks who believe in vitalism?

Rabble, Rabble.

Originally Posted by Newusername

I'm sorry..... how does consolidating the forums for two more or less equivalent legitimate medical degrees and creating a subforum for the major difference (OMM) have anything to do with creating a forum for a group of psuedoscience quacks who believe in vitalism?

Rabble, Rabble.

It doesn't, I was being humorous and failed.

Originally Posted by crmellon

It doesn't, I was being humorous and failed.

lol the internet has long been renowned for its ability to convey sarcasm

I just couldn't identify a smiley with the mock pretentiousness I was looking for. The fault is mine.

Why change the degree when you can have both?!

http://www.boydobgyn.com/pdf/Boyd_CV.pdf

There was a thread a while back on people with both DO and MD beside their names, thought it was pretty funny.

Originally Posted by TriagePreMed

Also, pre-allo sucks thanks to the trolls and gunner kids. I wouldn't want Pre-Osteo ruined.

Huge +1 to that.

Perhaps we should just go the way of the nurses and put every acronym we possibly can behind our names....

MRSAfulFate, DO, HSD, AS, BS, BLS, ACLS, EMT-B, GBIJ, GSSG, WFJTM

The MD's will never be able to compete with all of those letters.

Originally Posted by MRSAful Fate

Perhaps we should just go the way of the nurses and put every acronym we possibly can behind our names....

MRSAfulFate, DO, HSD, AS, BS, BLS, ACLS, EMT-B, GBIJ, GSSG, WFJTM

The MD's will never be able to compete with all of those letters.

Was just telling my wife that I read a conference bulletin with a bunch of speakers including MD, DO, and nurses. There were a few PhD's among the physicians to be sure, which is no big deal. But the nurses, holy lord. Jane Doe, BS, MS, RN, LPN, CDE, RD, DNP, PhD...lol, I think there were like two who didn't have an obnoxious amount of letters after their names. Worst offenders by far!

Originally Posted by Wolverines83

Was just telling my wife that I read a conference bulletin with a bunch of speakers including MD, DO, and nurses. There were a few PhD's among the physicians to be sure, which is no big deal. But the nurses, holy lord. Jane Doe, BS, MS, RN, LPN, CDE, RD, DNP, PhD...lol, I think there were like two who didn't have an obnoxious amount of letters after their names. Worst offenders by far!

I intend to have a separate white coat with all my titles and degrees and stuff that I wear specifically to annoy those nurses who tend to do this type of thing. Hell Ill even put my associates degree on there, why not. For some reason MSNs put their bachelors on there even though it is generally accepted that you put your HIGHEST degree, not all the extraneous lower level fluff.

Originally Posted by sylvanthus

I intend to have a separate white coat with all my titles and degrees and stuff that I wear specifically to annoy those nurses who tend to do this type of thing. Hell Ill even put my associates degree on there, why not. For some reason MSNs put their bachelors on there even though it is generally accepted that you put your HIGHEST degree, not all the extraneous lower level fluff.

I took a medical ethics course from an MSN who listed about six degrees including a PhD in leadership from an Online University. I like this white coat idea.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

They are not granted MDs. Also a DO does not need an MD as their title comes with all of the same privileges

you are incorrect sir. depending on the program. some allow for med school "extra" classes that were not part of the DDS/DMD curriculum to be taken during the residency. you complete the residency AND earn the MD at the end as well.

so I still think this is a valid question to be raised.

Originally Posted by PharmaTope

you are incorrect sir. depending on the program. some allow for med school "extra" classes that were not part of the DDS/DMD curriculum to be taken during the residency. you complete the residency AND earn the MD at the end as well.

so I still think this is a valid question to be raised.

so, what you're saying is... they take med school classes to get the MD

I knew this when I posted. a.k.a. they are not GRANTED an MD. They have to attend med school to get it - even if the schooling is truncated.

I cannot believe how awful you all treat each other. Disrespectful and just down right mean. I think you forget this an internet source for people... just because you've debated something in the past on sdn doesn't mean others should not have a chance to weigh in. I think the mediators do a terrible job keeping you all on task of the thread subject! Are you all just grumpy bitter people? Seriously, go to therapy! stop using sdn to scream your opinions and then degrade anyone else trying to give another side EVEN IF ITS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED! Everytime I get on this site this bickering and ugliness is prevelant. I'm about to scrap you all...especially since I'm new and not allowed to bring up anything that God forbid has been discussed already by you long time sdn posters.

Mediators. Please. You have to stop this bickering... I can go to a chat room if I want opinions shoved down my throat. I thought we were to answer the thread topic. NOT use the thread for our own personal soap box and slam others who oppose your view. I see it over and over on this site and its ridiculous.

And as an outsider... I explain all day long that a DO is not a chiropractor...and that yes, they are medical doctors. I live in seattle not a tiny town. people just don't know. The name is misleading!! This thread wasn't about DO's liking or disliking their education. I'm disappointed. The arguing is just too much. The valuable info is lost amongst your quarrelling.

And for the record. There are many establishments out there that won't even look at you without an MD license. Meaning you passed the usmle 1 and 2. So if DO's and MD's are treated equal...yet, when it comes to training, DO's can be excluded... many DO's do not know that.... john hopkins is one off the top of my head...but there are many more. and many rquirements for employment are an allopathic residency, and and some allopathic residencies rquire an md to apply. You can get your education at a DO school, but then take the usmle 1 and 2 to get MD license.. this isn't the place to post this but I was answering all the snide remarks about getting an MD on top of a DO. Sometimes you have to do additional work to open a door for higher education. It was implied on this thread it was an ego thing because of the DO initials.

You can not get an MD just by taking the USMLE. If you go to a DO school you will always be a DO. You will never be an MD unless you either go to an allopathic school or you are from a country that grants an MBBS degree and then come here, take and pass the USMLE and then by some miracle get a residency spot.

Originally Posted by MoxieGirl

And for the record. There are many establishments out there that won't even look at you without an MD license. Meaning you passed the usmle 1 and 2. So if DO's and MD's are treated equal...yet, when it comes to training, DO's can be excluded... many DO's do not know that.... john hopkins is one off the top of my head...but there are many more. and many rquirements for employment are an allopathic residency, and and some allopathic residencies rquire an md to apply. You can get your education at a DO school, but then take the usmle 1 and 2 to get MD license.. this isn't the place to post this but I was answering all the snide remarks about getting an MD on top of a DO. Sometimes you have to do additional work to open a door for higher education. It was implied on this thread it was an ego thing because of the DO initials.

New Rule: Whenever someone says "John Hopkins", they must pay me $100. We'll start with you.

And johns Hopkins will take DOs. A guy in the class above me was offered anesthesiology residency pre match there. He turned it down to be near skiing and another really great program.

As an (O)MS4 heading to an allopathic residency, I don't feel particularly strongly about the degree thing, mostly because it just doesn't come up that much. Sure, a handful of patients have asked about it during my clinical years, and rightly so, I myself didn't know about osteopathy until after I finished undergrad. As an applicant I had a good MCAT and relatively lower GPA, and applied to one local DO school and less than a dozen MD schools. I was wait-listed at several schools, and ended up only getting into the one. Does this say something about competitiveness of osteopathic schools? Probably, although it likely says more about my application strategy (or lack thereof). Did it make me less of a medical student or candidate for residency? Nope.

I guess if I didn't have to jump through too many hoops (but really, in the process of becoming a licensed physician, what are a few more hoops?) I would rather have an MD. Mostly to avoid ever having to explain osteopathy to someone ever again, rare as it may be necessary to do so. Plus, MD is just a sexier brand. Then again, anyone who thinks DO isn't sexy hasn't seen me adjust pubic bones.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with my training, but that being said I was happy when my younger brother was accepted by an MD-granting institution earlier this year. There will always be a few people who are both aware enough and uninformed enough to be anti-DO, just like there are people who wouldn't choose a doctor with brown skin or a foreign accent. All are poor indicators for judgement of someone's clinical acumen.

Without much knowledge of the politics surrounding such issues, I can only imagine that such a change is unlikely to occur. I certainly would not strongly advocate for nor actively seek a degree change. That being said, if someone put the option in my lap, it would be a no-brainer for me, or I would think anyone not planning to incorporate OMT into their practice...

Just go to a degree mill in the Caribbean and get an MD by "transferring" your DO credits over. There are several examples of this, however a while back bala565 was talking about how it was illegal in most states.

Originally Posted by CXCR4

Just go to a degree mill in the Caribbean and get an MD by "transferring" your DO credits over. There are several examples of this, however a while back bala565 was talking about how it was illegal in most states.

I don't know if there are any more places like this, but the fact is that you can't advertise as an M.D. if you gained your license through your D.O. education; so it would be completely useless to try this.

the caribbean school IS an MD school.... you would earn an MD through the school just like the people who started from scratch....

I don;'t think there is anything barring you from ever claiming MD if you ever had a DO - these people would have had a DO, and would have to complete further curriculum from an MD school to get the MD.... not really different from just transferring credits between schools.

Yea I think the key might be to go to the Carib and get the degree BEFORE you get your license, and present your MD degree ahead of your DO degree for licensure.

Originally Posted by CXCR4

Yea I think the key might be to go to the Carib and get the degree BEFORE you get your license, and present your MD degree ahead of your DO degree for licensure.

Id have to see some policy barring it. The rule seems to be not advertising as MD without an MD. NOT against advertising as MD with a DO. If a caribbean school takes a graduated DO and re graduates them with an MD then they can advertise with the degree which they were given.

Before or after shouldn't matter

Originally Posted by eccentric jet

As an (O)MS4 heading to an allopathic residency, I don't feel particularly strongly about the degree thing, mostly because it just doesn't come up that much. Sure, a handful of patients have asked about it during my clinical years, and rightly so, I myself didn't know about osteopathy until after I finished undergrad. As an applicant I had a good MCAT and relatively lower GPA, and applied to one local DO school and less than a dozen MD schools. I was wait-listed at several schools, and ended up only getting into the one. Does this say something about competitiveness of osteopathic schools? Probably, although it likely says more about my application strategy (or lack thereof). Did it make me less of a medical student or candidate for residency? Nope.

I guess if I didn't have to jump through too many hoops (but really, in the process of becoming a licensed physician, what are a few more hoops?) I would rather have an MD. Mostly to avoid ever having to explain osteopathy to someone ever again, rare as it may be necessary to do so. Plus, MD is just a sexier brand. Then again, anyone who thinks DO isn't sexy hasn't seen me adjust pubic bones.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with my training, but that being said I was happy when my younger brother was accepted by an MD-granting institution earlier this year. There will always be a few people who are both aware enough and uninformed enough to be anti-DO, just like there are people who wouldn't choose a doctor with brown skin or a foreign accent. All are poor indicators for judgement of someone's clinical acumen.

Without much knowledge of the politics surrounding such issues, I can only imagine that such a change is unlikely to occur. I certainly would not strongly advocate for nor actively seek a degree change. That being said, if someone put the option in my lap, it would be a no-brainer for me, or I would think anyone not planning to incorporate OMT into their practice...

Best thing I have read on this thread. Thumbs up sir.

Originally Posted by eccentric jet

As an (O)MS4 heading to an allopathic residency, I don't feel particularly strongly about the degree thing, mostly because it just doesn't come up that much. Sure, a handful of patients have asked about it during my clinical years, and rightly so, I myself didn't know about osteopathy until after I finished undergrad. As an applicant I had a good MCAT and relatively lower GPA, and applied to one local DO school and less than a dozen MD schools. I was wait-listed at several schools, and ended up only getting into the one. Does this say something about competitiveness of osteopathic schools? Probably, although it likely says more about my application strategy (or lack thereof). Did it make me less of a medical student or candidate for residency? Nope.

I guess if I didn't have to jump through too many hoops (but really, in the process of becoming a licensed physician, what are a few more hoops?) I would rather have an MD. Mostly to avoid ever having to explain osteopathy to someone ever again, rare as it may be necessary to do so. Plus, MD is just a sexier brand. Then again, anyone who thinks DO isn't sexy hasn't seen me adjust pubic bones.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with my training, but that being said I was happy when my younger brother was accepted by an MD-granting institution earlier this year. There will always be a few people who are both aware enough and uninformed enough to be anti-DO, just like there are people who wouldn't choose a doctor with brown skin or a foreign accent. All are poor indicators for judgement of someone's clinical acumen.

Without much knowledge of the politics surrounding such issues, I can only imagine that such a change is unlikely to occur. I certainly would not strongly advocate for nor actively seek a degree change. That being said, if someone put the option in my lap, it would be a no-brainer for me, or I would think anyone not planning to incorporate OMT into their practice...

Im realizing how highly you all hink of yourself.

Thanks for the revelation.

Medical schools and residency programs have beens an amazing source of ACCURATE information for me. You all should check your facts... cuz some of you are DEAD WRONG. and i hope new people browsing realize it.

I won't be using this site.

Originally Posted by MoxieGirl

Im realizing how highly you all hink of yourself.

Thanks for the revelation.

Medical schools and residency programs have beens an amazing source of ACCURATE information for me. You all should check your facts... cuz some of you are DEAD WRONG. and i hope new people browsing realize it.

I won't be using this site.

Your contribution to this site shall always be cherised and will go down in SDN history as both thought provoking and inspiring. Though you leave us, you will never be forgotten.

Originally Posted by MoxieGirl

Im realizing how highly you all hink of yourself.

Thanks for the revelation.

Medical schools and residency programs have beens an amazing source of ACCURATE information for me. You all should check your facts... cuz some of you are DEAD WRONG. and i hope new people browsing realize it.

I won't be using this site.

I'm glad you have accurate resources, and have enlightened all of us with your insightful comments on how careers in medicine work, particularly at Johns Hopkins, I was astonished to learn that an allopathic residency was required in many states to practice medicine at all, and that taking the USMLE grants MD licensing. I'll stop hinking highly of myself, and I wish you the best of luck in your path towards medicine.

Originally Posted by crmellon

I'm glad you have accurate resources, and have enlightened all of us with your insightful comments on how careers in medicine work, particularly at Johns Hopkins, I was astonished to learn that an allopathic residency was required in many states to practice medicine at all, and that taking the USMLE grants MD licensing. I'll stop hinking highly of myself, and I wish you the best of luck in your path towards medicine.

theres a total of 11 likes on fb...lol

i think people are scared to go for a like

Originally Posted by se20001984

theres a total of 11 likes on fb...lol

i think people are scared to go for a like

LOL... right...