MD Overall chances for an Ivy League school ?

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First I should mention from Canada in order to give a better idea but anyway this will be my very likely stats/record at time of application.

3.85 gpa/34 mcat

Extracurriculars:

- 4 years of recreation therapy at hospital (2 hrs/week)
- 10 hours of shadowing
- top 10 ranked national sprinter throughout high school onto early universe
- dedicated bodybuilder/powerlifter (workout 15-18 hours a week) - unofficial national record holder
- 1 summer research project
- 2 years orientation leader at university
- provincial level medialist in track and field since 12 years old/provincial champion/provincial record holder
- 4 time award winner for high athletic achievement, recognized by the mayor of the city
- private tutoring (several people)
- deans list/presidents list at university
- student orientation staff member (employed)
- nationally certified personal trainer
- volunteer at few science events (could go into details)
- certified in budo
- track and field coaching experience
- research volunteering
- played rep soccer when I was younger
- open house tour guide at university for 2 years
- member of pre med club at uni
- athletics canada member for 6 years
- canfitpro member for 3 years


That's all the ECs I can think of for now.
So.. thoughts?? I'm curious as to how I compare to the level of competition out there.

About as good as any other moderately competitive applicant. I'd aim at just getting into medical school first. The top 40 schools are a crap shoot and to break the top 20 is even moreso. You might get lucky. You might not. Apply broadly but with a focus on high to mid-tier US schools as well as in Canada. Be sure to throw a few mission-focused (whose mission you match) mid-tier private schools in for good measure. Maybe consider a mix of 2-4 top 20 schools, 3-5 ranked in the 20-50 range, 2-4 Canadian schools, and 5-6 in the 50+ range whose mission you fit VERY well.

I'd say you're pretty middle of the road for top schools, especially stats wise. Do rly well on your PS and your activity descriptions, get good LORs and apply BROADLY. Dont be one of those people who only apply to top schools and ends up not getting in anywhere. Honestly, I think it will come down to if you get lucky enough to get an adcom at a top school who is especially impressed with your athletic achievements. You'll have to wait and see.

And maybe try to get more research, top schools are into that.

Originally Posted by music2doc

About as good as any other moderately competitive applicant. I'd aim at just getting into medical school first. The top 40 schools are a crap shoot and to break the top 20 is even moreso. You might get lucky. You might not. Apply broadly but with a focus on high to mid-tier US schools as well as in Canada. Be sure to throw a few mission-focused (whose mission you match) mid-tier private schools in for good measure. Maybe consider a mix of 2-4 top 20 schools, 3-5 ranked in the 20-50 range, 2-4 Canadian schools, and 5-6 in the 50+ range whose mission you fit VERY well.

I was thinking as many top schools as possible and 7-8 mid/lower tier. Then probably 8-9 canadians. I want a for sure admission (as likely as possible), but my priority is:

1) high ranked ivy
2) canadian school
3) mid tier american
4) low tier american md
5) DO ??? lol

Originally Posted by sliceofbread136

I'd say you're pretty middle of the road for top schools, especially stats wise. Do rly well on your PS and your activity descriptions, get good LORs and apply BROADLY. Dont be one of those people who only apply to top schools and ends up not getting in anywhere. Honestly, I think it will come down to if you get lucky enough to get an adcom at a top school who is especially impressed with your athletic achievements. You'll have to wait and see.

And maybe try to get more research, top schools are into that.

ya note taken. but i guess some adcoms with big guts probably wont care about athletics more than just a casual activity?

And be sure to have some mock interviews for practice, atleast on this board you come off a little... abrasive. You don't want that to happen in your interviews.

Originally Posted by sliceofbread136

And be sure to have some mock interviews for practice, atleast on this board you come off a little... abrasive. You don't want that to happen in your interviews.

Yea that's part of the plan. But I have been told I'm good at interviews lol.

to any medical school!

You have a good score/GPA; my stats and those of several of my friends were very similar (mine were exact save ~3.8).

-You don't have a lot of shadowing (unless that 10 should have been a 100).
----You don't make up for it with a ton of volunteering or research.
-You sound like a great, dedicated track star, but my experience has been that that's not nearly as important in getting into med schools as it was for getting into UG.


DO NOT underestimate the importance of shadowing and volunteering; adcoms cherish these over almost everything else. Do more of those and apply early, and you might get a few interviews at the Ivies.

Best of Luck!

Originally Posted by zherussianbear

to any medical school!

You have a good score/GPA; my stats and those of several of my friends were very similar (mine were exact save ~3.8).

-You don't have a lot of shadowing (unless that 10 should have been a 100).
----You don't make up for it with a ton of volunteering or research.
-You sound like a great, dedicated track star, but my experience has been that that's not nearly as important in getting into med schools as it was for getting into UG.


DO NOT underestimate the importance of shadowing and volunteering; adcoms cherish these over almost everything else. Do more of those and apply early, and you might get a few interviews at the Ivies.

Best of Luck!

Shadowing is very difficult to get in Canada, so I got the little I cold.
But isn't 4 years of doing recreation therapy ( best form of clinical volunteering) at a hospital a huge amount? Along with research volunteering, volunteering at a few science events ?

My athletic stuff really breaks down and is quite different from one another (bodybuilding, powerlifting, soccer) all apart from track. As well as other things like being a personal trainer, coach, etc.

But what about leadership positions? Like being an orientation leader at my uni for 1st years and being a student staff for another mid summer orientation event?

With just average stats for a top 40 school as an international, you need something to wow elsewhere. Find that something

Originally Posted by blizzah

With just average stats for a top 40 school as an international, you need something to wow elsewhere. Find that something

Agreed. And hopefully it's not the overwhelming misogyny you've displayed on the boards.

Originally Posted by druggeek

No I have. I usually hang out with girls who want to have sexual fun off the bat and avoid girls who want to go on some dates or some crap. Saves me a useless headache as well as $$$.

Originally Posted by druggeek

I think it's extremely obviously men are indeed superior to women. Feminists can say all the non sense they like and quote <1% of cases for support, but truth is truth and the reason men are superior today is because for thousands of years they were biologically built so.

WHY couldnt women be equal or better than men in times of early humans?

Originally Posted by druggeek

you can say what you want, but deep down a majority of women would rather trust a man with their life (ex. trauma surgeon, firefighter, cop) than a woman.
Only women who make exceptions to these are testosterone loaded females, and I guess you can argue they're part man?

Originally Posted by druggeek

Havent you heard of all the hpv-16 going around from all these dudes who eat out too much? (srs).

Though you are right, but most girls are satisfied by my finger + neck licking combo... prior to the smash.

You sure seem like a winner, homie.

Originally Posted by blizzah

With just average stats for a top 40 school as an international, you need something to wow elsewhere. Find that something

Arent private schools supposed to look at internationals (especially Canadians) as equals? And the only wow thing I could have is my athletics. what else is there anyway? If i had another research project, is it that much of a deal breaker vs. having just one?

Originally Posted by druggeek

Arent private schools supposed to look at internationals (especially Canadians) as equals? And the only wow thing I could have is my athletics. what else is there anyway? If i had another research project, is it that much of a deal breaker vs. having just one?

"Supposed to"...what does that even mean? No... they still have missions and most are more committed to US residents than internationals. They simply don't (usually) favor their own states (as much). They realize the US is in need of physicians and are often committed to solving that problem. If Canada is in grave need of more physicians, it can build more medical schools to meet its own need.

You have some decent ECs, but you'd basically be a low-average applicant to those schools if you were a US citizen, but you're international, so it's definitely a weak bet. Apply broadly with a few dream schools. An app to any of the top 10 is a virtual throw-away for almost any applicant, yourself included, but it's healthy to dream. Since you're international, maybe apply to 20 schools and split them 5 ways with 4 in each category: 4 top 30, 4 top 50, 4 Canadian, 4 mid-tier US MD (ranked 50-80), 4 low tier (80+/"unpublished ranking") US MD. Also be sure to choose carefully by mission and consider schools in terms of history of international students.

To keep things in perspective, the average matriculant from Canada had a 34Q last year (12PS/10VR/12BS) with a 3.76 GPA. Compare that to the average applicant overall (basically the US applicant), who averaged a 31Q (10/10/11) with a 3.67 GPA.

Basically, that means you can subtract 3 points on the MCAT and 0.1 on the GPA, so to most US MD programs, you are equivalent to a 31 MCAT/3.75 GPA. That puts you right in line for a mid-range school. Anything ranked beyond top 40 or better is going to be a reach, with anything in the top 20 being mostly out of reach (although there is always the possibility).

Originally Posted by music2doc

To keep things in perspective, the average matriculant from Canada had a 34Q last year (12PS/10VR/12BS) with a 3.76 GPA. Compare that to the average applicant overall (basically the US applicant), who averaged a 31Q (10/10/11) with a 3.67 GPA.

Wow this is surprising. I'd like to know more about it. Could you provide the sourse please?

Originally Posted by BetrayingChopin

Wow this is surprising. I'd like to know more about it. Could you provide the sourse please?

AMCAS matriculant data for last year. Go to the AMCAS website; it's all right there. Digging kind of makes it even more dim, though, unfortunately. International students find it quite difficult to get into US programs regardless of the field and MD programs are certainly no exception. That said, some of the following (e.g., rates of matriculation) inherently make the assumption that all Canadians applying to U.S. programs actually want to go there. It is very possible that a large percentage do, in fact, end up attending a Canadian medical school and some who do not may even choose to either sit out a year or switch professions to avoid paying international fees, etc.

If we dig a little deeper, Canadian students who apply to US M.D. programs are slightly stronger than U.S. applicants, which could help to explain the data, but, in reality, this is likely nothing more than an artifact of students avoiding applying to the U.S. unless they are the best of the best. The average Canadian applying has a 30Q MCAT/3.57 GPA, so basically Canadians typically apply to the U.S. with stats slightly above the average for U.S.-born applicants (3.52/28), which makes sense. However, the average Canadian who applies to the U.S. is only accepted and matriculated to a U.S. school 9.7% of the time (98 out of 1009 Canadian applicants).

A good basis for comparison for Canadian applicants in terms of the stats with which they apply is California. California applicants apply with an average of a 30 MCAT as well and have an average GPA of 3.49. They also make a good comparison because, like Canada, they have too many applicants for their own schools and, therefore, tend to place applicants at a disadvantage. However, California applicants at least have US citizenship -- and it shows. Despite their incredible schools, California's average in the MCAT hovers squarely between 32 and 33 (right about the national "accepted" average and a bit above the matriculant average) with a GPA of 3.65 (ever so slightly below the national average). California applicants are admitted to a U.S. MD program 44% of the time. If we factor out California schools from the acceptances (to match the Canadian stats AMCAS keeps), Californians matriculate at non-California schools at an acceptance/matriculation rate of 27%.

While these data and analysis are certainly not perfect, they do illustrate the reality that applying internationally is most certainly tougher than applying domestically. No doubt about it.

Originally Posted by music2doc

"Supposed to"...what does that even mean? No... they still have missions and most are more committed to US residents than internationals. They simply don't (usually) favor their own states (as much). They realize the US is in need of physicians and are often committed to solving that problem. If Canada is in grave need of more physicians, it can build more medical schools to meet its own need.

You have some decent ECs, but you'd basically be a low-average applicant to those schools if you were a US citizen, but you're international, so it's definitely a weak bet. Apply broadly with a few dream schools. An app to any of the top 10 is a virtual throw-away for almost any applicant, yourself included, but it's healthy to dream. Since you're international, maybe apply to 20 schools and split them 5 ways with 4 in each category: 4 top 30, 4 top 50, 4 Canadian, 4 mid-tier US MD (ranked 50-80), 4 low tier (80+/"unpublished ranking") US MD. Also be sure to choose carefully by mission and consider schools in terms of history of international students.

To keep things in perspective, the average matriculant from Canada had a 34Q last year (12PS/10VR/12BS) with a 3.76 GPA. Compare that to the average applicant overall (basically the US applicant), who averaged a 31Q (10/10/11) with a 3.67 GPA.

Basically, that means you can subtract 3 points on the MCAT and 0.1 on the GPA, so to most US MD programs, you are equivalent to a 31 MCAT/3.75 GPA. That puts you right in line for a mid-range school. Anything ranked beyond top 40 or better is going to be a reach, with anything in the top 20 being mostly out of reach (although there is always the possibility).

We actually have a saturation of specialists and surgeons but a shortage of primary care doctors lol.

I understand stat wise I'd be average but in what ways are most americans applying to top schools *better* than me in the EC department? I'm looking for more clarification on this.

Also, my GPA was a "worst case scenario." It will be ~0.05 higher on my application under an ideal case, so 3.90.

But anyway, dont you think it's wiser to apply to every school I can? Basically any school that takes internationals and gives them more than a 0.1% chance..lol.

Originally Posted by druggeek

But anyway, dont you think it's wiser to apply to every school I can? Basically any school that takes internationals and gives them more than a 0.1% chance..lol.

Yes. Of course you should do that. You should remember that the top schools are basically top because of their research, and you don't have as much as the average applicant (especially in terms of production/pubs)

Originally Posted by druggeek

We actually have a saturation of specialists and surgeons but a shortage of primary care doctors lol.

I understand stat wise I'd be average but in what ways are most americans applying to top schools *better* than me in the EC department? I'm looking for more clarification on this.

well...

Originally Posted by druggeek

First I should mention from Canada in order to give a better idea but anyway this will be my very likely stats/record at time of application.

3.85 gpa/34 mcat

Extracurriculars:

- 4 years of recreation therapy at hospital (2 hrs/week)
good. length is good. some clinical responsibility. even at 400 hrs, still falls below some schools' cutoffs.
- 10 hours of shadowing
weak. the above EC helps but does not fully overcome this.
- top 10 ranked national sprinter throughout high school onto early universe
great and a good unique point, but many top 10 applicants will have accomplished comparable things
- dedicated bodybuilder/powerlifter (workout 15-18 hours a week) - unofficial national record holder
good.
- 1 summer research project
very weak if this is your primary research experience (passable for bottom 50% of programs by research rankings)
- 2 years orientation leader at university
good... did you achieve anything above and beyond?
- provincial level medialist in track and field since 12 years old/provincial champion/provincial record holder
good.
- 4 time award winner for high athletic achievement, recognized by the mayor of the city
good. this seems to be a theme for you, which is excellent.
- private tutoring (several people)
good filler.
- deans list/presidents list at university
this is about as useful to your app as a certificate signed by your mom that reads, "Druggeek is the bestest son a mother could ask for."
- student orientation staff member (employed)
Put this with the other similar one instead of separating out (same basic activity)
- nationally certified personal trainer
ok...? (and...?)
- volunteer at few science events (could go into details)
fairly typical
- certified in budo
at what level?
- track and field coaching experience
cool.
- research volunteering
what have you achieved?
- played rep soccer when I was younger
appears irrelevant.
- open house tour guide at university for 2 years
sounds like part of/related to your orientation involvement; consider combining
- member of pre med club at uni
member? what have you accomplished there?
- athletics canada member for 6 years
which means what?
- canfitpro member for 3 years
ok?

That's all the ECs I can think of for now.
So.. thoughts?? I'm curious as to how I compare to the level of competition out there.

Basically, you have a few interesting ECs but none are knock-'em-dead other than, perhaps, the sports background. You also seem to lack much achievement outside sports, esp. in the way of clinical, research, and volunteering. What have you done to make others' lives better?

Also, my GPA was a "worst case scenario." It will be ~0.05 higher on my application under an ideal case, so 3.90.

But anyway, dont you think it's wiser to apply to every school I can? Basically any school that takes internationals and gives them more than a 0.1% chance..lol.

Yes, apply anywhere you can but since most people cannot afford to apply to 30-50 schools (nor should they), I would suggest 20-30 schools that are very well-selected.

Originally Posted by music2doc

well...


Basically, you have a few interesting ECs but none are knock-'em-dead other than, perhaps, the sports background. You also seem to lack much achievement outside sports, esp. in the way of clinical, research, and volunteering. What have you done to make others' lives better?




Yes, apply anywhere you can but since most people cannot afford to apply to 30-50 schools (nor should they), I would suggest 20-30 schools that are very well-selected.

Thanks for the breakdown of my ECs, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Just to clarify about the 3 different orientation things (tour guide, mid summer orientation staff, orientation leader). They are managed by 3 different groups of people and have no relation to each other in the school (one is a paid job, one is for frosh week/orientation week, takes lots of planning, and another is mid-year to show new students around).

And I've worked as a personal trainer for a gym throughout 2 years.

BTW, what did you mean by "cut offs" when talking about my hospital volunteering hours? Would you reccomend volunteering at a mental hospital for maybe 50 hours over a short span of time to "upgrade" a little?

And do you think quantity in terms of fillers (ex. pre med club member, member of x national organization, soccer, blah blah) can be a small boost?

And how much does it really cost to apply to like 40 schools? 5-6 grand? Money isnt a real issue for me.

Originally Posted by druggeek

Thanks for the breakdown of my ECs, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Just to clarify about the 3 different orientation things (tour guide, mid summer orientation staff, orientation leader). They are managed by 3 different groups of people and have no relation to each other in the school (one is a paid job, one is for frosh week/orientation week, takes lots of planning, and another is mid-year to show new students around).

And I've worked as a personal trainer for a gym throughout 2 years.

Good. To impress anyone you have to introspect deeply about these positions, come up with good anecdotes that are memorable and portray good qualities about yourself. Realize what you learned from these experiences, and how they have helped you become a better person. That's the killer with regards to ECs.

BTW, what did you mean by "cut offs" when talking about my hospital volunteering hours? Would you reccomend volunteering at a mental hospital for maybe 50 hours over a short span of time to "upgrade" a little?

Some schools have particular Mission statements and if they are especially oriented on service as one of their educational pillars, you may be cutoff because you did not volunteer enough. That's my guess but if you can spin your minimal volunteering the right way (you need to have a descent amount for balancing at least with your athletics +jobs+academics), you can pass that barrier at most places.

Also, you really need to stop looking at this "upgrade" stuff. Your doing this sh-t to "upgrade" your perspective on medicine and the meaning of your insignificant life (myself included). Be humble. If it's something you want to do and feel it will contribute to your growth as a person, certainly do it, and certainly talk about it in that way. I don't think it adds much for a top school, but I don't know personally what top schools want.

And do you think quantity in terms of fillers (ex. pre med club member, member of x national organization, soccer, blah blah) can be a small boost?

Not really. Maybe. Idk...Depends on how you spin them.

And how much does it really cost to apply to like 40 schools? 5-6 grand? Money isnt a real issue for me.

100$ a primary plus 100 bucks for the secondaries. 40x200...? + flight costs/hotel fees/ground transportation/food/ time spent writing good secondaries = ....? worth it? Pick your schools wisely. Don't pick them because of their rank or you may not be happy. Med school is med school, and no matter where you go you will succeed because of your motivation for medicine

Good luck

Originally Posted by TheMightySmiter

Agreed. And hopefully it's not the overwhelming misogyny you've displayed on the boards.












You sure seem like a winner, homie.

I love you.

What everyone has said is true. Your status as a Canadian applicant will make things more difficult for you, and in reference to the top schools, their focus (other than stats) is research. Most students who get accepted to top 20 schools have publications, poster presentations, and extensive research. They are top 20 schools on the "research" rankings for a reason. I know you mentioned a summer research project but that isn't nearly enough. What was the extent of your research volunteering?

Well I guess it's about time he got banned...

Originally Posted by music2doc

"Supposed to"...what does that even mean? No... they still have missions and most are more committed to US residents than internationals. They simply don't (usually) favor their own states (as much). They realize the US is in need of physicians and are often committed to solving that problem. If Canada is in grave need of more physicians, it can build more medical schools to meet its own need.

You have some decent ECs, but you'd basically be a low-average applicant to those schools if you were a US citizen, but you're international, so it's definitely a weak bet. Apply broadly with a few dream schools. An app to any of the top 10 is a virtual throw-away for almost any applicant, yourself included, but it's healthy to dream. Since you're international, maybe apply to 20 schools and split them 5 ways with 4 in each category: 4 top 30, 4 top 50, 4 Canadian, 4 mid-tier US MD (ranked 50-80), 4 low tier (80+/"unpublished ranking") US MD. Also be sure to choose carefully by mission and consider schools in terms of history of international students.

To keep things in perspective, the average matriculant from Canada had a 34Q last year (12PS/10VR/12BS) with a 3.76 GPA. Compare that to the average applicant overall (basically the US applicant), who averaged a 31Q (10/10/11) with a 3.67 GPA.

Basically, that means you can subtract 3 points on the MCAT and 0.1 on the GPA, so to most US MD programs, you are equivalent to a 31 MCAT/3.75 GPA. That puts you right in line for a mid-range school. Anything ranked beyond top 40 or better is going to be a reach, with anything in the top 20 being mostly out of reach (although there is always the possibility).

Beyond the upper echelon schools, who cares though? What is this nonsense about "top 40"? A school is a school once you get beyond the Harvard and Hopkins of the world. If he or she wants a derm residency it's going to come down to board scores and publications, not if he or she went to Brown vs Albany.

Yeah, so OP your chances (as are everyone else with a sub 40 MCAT) are slim at the upper crusts. Does that mean you are doomed for a US MD? In no way whatsoever. Apply to any school(s) in the US you can see yourself living in and hope for the best. Beyond the upper tier schools, name recognition will get you no-where in residency applications (hard work will).

Originally Posted by druggeek

I was thinking as many top schools as possible and 7-8 mid/lower tier. Then probably 8-9 canadians. I want a for sure admission (as likely as possible), but my priority is:

1) high ranked ivy
2) canadian school
3) mid tier american
4) low tier american md
5) DO ??? lol



ya note taken. but i guess some adcoms with big guts probably wont care about athletics more than just a casual activity?

While I realize we're on the allopathic board, you might want to be careful about things like this.

Your #s are fine, many top-tiers will reject you just because they can, but there are people at those schools who are less qualified than you, it's just the luck of the draw sometimes. Seriously work at interviewing though, a lot of schools (like ours) weigh it very high, and if you make a joke like that without realizing your interviewer is a DO and not an MD, you can pack your bags for Puerto Rico.

Originally Posted by medstud2015

While I realize we're on the allopathic board, you might want to be careful about things like this.

Your #s are fine, many top-tiers will reject you just because they can, but there are people at those schools who are less qualified than you, it's just the luck of the draw sometimes. Seriously work at interviewing though, a lot of schools (like ours) weigh it very high, and if you make a joke like that without realizing your interviewer is a DO and not an MD, you can pack your bags for Puerto Rico.

Im not sure if your implying Puerto Rican schools are carribean schools, but they aren't. They are classified as US schools.

Woops, posted but OP got banned.

Originally Posted by Knocked Up

Beyond the upper echelon schools, who cares though? What is this nonsense about "top 40"? A school is a school once you get beyond the Harvard and Hopkins of the world. If he or she wants a derm residency it's going to come down to board scores and publications, not if he or she went to Brown vs Albany.

Yeah, so OP your chances (as are everyone else with a sub 40 MCAT) are slim at the upper crusts. Does that mean you are doomed for a US MD? In no way whatsoever. Apply to any school(s) in the US you can see yourself living in and hope for the best. Beyond the upper tier schools, name recognition will get you no-where in residency applications (hard work will).

While I agree with you here, the OP seems dead-set on "top schools," so chances at the "Top 40" are relevant. Some official stats for residencies also use such rankings, so it does bear some relevance.... Overall, though, you're right. Rankings matter little and any US MD is absolutely a huge accomplishment and will take you far. It is ultimately your performance in and beyond medical school that matters anyway.