Combined Bachelor/MD programs and Dermatology

SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)

I am 17 years old and have applied and received interviews at quite a few combined Bachelor/MD programs, which I would enter this coming fall, after graduation from high school. I have 2 questions regarding this:

1) My first question is whether dermatology residency programs look upon you more favorably if you’ve gone through a combined degree program directly after high school and if it means anything when it comes to residency selection.

This is more in reference to the accelerated six-year Bachelor/MD programs (below), in which I would save a total of 2 years from the traditional track of 4 years of college and 4 years of medical school.

The last two out of the four listed six-year programs below do not have a dermatology residency program currently and are also thought to be lower caliber/lower ranked medical schools (I am not sure about Jefferson Medical College), although I would still have the benefit of graduating after 6 years.

Would the acceleration still be seen as a positive (having saved 2 years to be able to do research or teach in an academic department at an earlier age than everyone else) even at a not-so-good medical school?

6 year Bachelor/MD programs
~Pennsylvania State University and Jefferson Medical College
~UT at Dallas and UT Southwestern Medical School
~Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine (no derm program)
~University of Missouri—Kansas City School of Medicine (no derm program)

The other programs that I have applied to are below, all of which are 8-year programs except BU (so the only benefit to these programs are the guaranteed acceptance to medical school). There is no opportunity to accelerate the undergrad part, even with AP credit.

More prestigious medical schools with Bachelor/MD programs, (all have dermatology residency programs):
~Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University (8 years)
~Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine (8 years)
~University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine (8 years)
~Boston University School of Medicine (7 years)
~Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine (8 years)
~Rice University and Baylor College of Medicine (8 years)
~University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry (8 years)

2) My second question is if I enter a Bachelor/MD program whose medical school has a dermatology residency, would it be good to get involved in dermatology-related clinical or basic science research starting as a college freshman (like maybe starting with case reports and working my way up in publishing complexity)? Or would that be considered too early or would I be considered too young to start, and I should instead just wait till I get to the medical school portion of the program? The one advantage I can see to starting as a freshman in college is that I would have a lot more publications under my belt by the time I would apply to residency.

Thank you for any help in answering my questions and good luck to all of you in the Match.

Originally Posted by YouthfulSkin

I am 17 years old and have applied and received interviews at quite a few combined Bachelor/MD programs, which I would enter this coming fall, after graduation from high school. I have 2 questions regarding this:

1) My first question is whether dermatology residency programs look upon you more favorably if you’ve gone through a combined degree program directly after high school and if it means anything when it comes to residency selection.

This is more in reference to the accelerated six-year Bachelor/MD programs (below), in which I would save a total of 2 years from the traditional track of 4 years of college and 4 years of medical school.

The last two out of the four listed six-year programs below do not have a dermatology residency program currently and are also thought to be lower caliber/lower ranked medical schools (I am not sure about Jefferson Medical College), although I would still have the benefit of graduating after 6 years.

Would the acceleration still be seen as a positive (having saved 2 years to be able to do research or teach in an academic department at an earlier age than everyone else) even at a not-so-good medical school?

6 year Bachelor/MD programs
~Pennsylvania State University and Jefferson Medical College
~UT at Dallas and UT Southwestern Medical School
~Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine (no derm program)
~University of Missouri—Kansas City School of Medicine (no derm program)

The other programs that I have applied to are below, all of which are 8-year programs except BU (so the only benefit to these programs are the guaranteed acceptance to medical school). There is no opportunity to accelerate the undergrad part, even with AP credit.

More prestigious medical schools with Bachelor/MD programs, (all have dermatology residency programs):
~Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University (8 years)
~Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine (8 years)
~University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine (8 years)
~Boston University School of Medicine (7 years)
~Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine (8 years)
~Rice University and Baylor College of Medicine (8 years)
~University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry (8 years)

2) My second question is if I enter a Bachelor/MD program whose medical school has a dermatology residency, would it be good to get involved in dermatology-related clinical or basic science research starting as a college freshman (like maybe starting with case reports and working my way up in publishing complexity)? Or would that be considered too early or would I be considered too young to start, and I should instead just wait till I get to the medical school portion of the program? The one advantage I can see to starting as a freshman in college is that I would have a lot more publications under my belt by the time I would apply to residency.

Thank you for any help in answering my questions and good luck to all of you in the Match.

focus on doing well on your boards, young one...and why are you putting utsw in the crappy school list...certainly would put it among the top 5 programs in country for derm and better than brown, bu, case, baylor, and rochester for med schools.

You will definitely not be looked at MORE favorably when applying for residency because you were from a combined progam. You'll be evaluated along with all of the other students from your school, and most/all interviewers won't even know you did a combined program. Do well on your boards, in med school, do research, make connections, and you'll do fine.

1. Over 75% of my class has changed their mind from doing what they do 1st year to what they want to do now. So don't use your career dream of derm shape your whole college/med school experience. There's a lot to learn, a lot of experience, and it will all be wasted chasing a dream that you may not want 6-8 years down the road.

BS/MD programs has NO bearing on derm residency. The more important part is where you go to med school. I started in a combined program that placed me into an around 50 med school. Then I applied out and ended up in an around 20 med school. Looking back on it, it was one of the best decisions I ever made.

I say this because derm programs will pay attention to where you go. At interviews at prestigious programs, everyone is from a great medical school. At interviews at so-so programs (keep in mind it's still DERM), you have more variety. So looking at your list, consider programs with derm programs certainly but also ones with great medical schools.

UTSW, Pitt, Case, NW, BCM, URoch, Jefferson are all excellent with good derm programs. Some programs may give you better experiences but that is up for you to decide. Good luck.

I have to say that comming from ANY allopathic med school is acceptable for getting into ANY derm program, even the top tier derms. I went to as average a medical school as you can get, yet interviewed at multiple top derm programs. I also saw other students on my interviews with the same story. However, I also saw that half of the applicants came from harvard, yale or another big name med school, so it certainly matters where you get your degrees. Still, it is much more important that you excell (as in top 5-10%) at your medical school, and the number 1 student at any med school with great board scores to boot will get double the interviews as an average student from harvard. The difference is that the average student at harvard actually can get interviews!(not so for joe shmoe from random school usa)

Originally Posted by drdan766

I have to say that comming from ANY allopathic med school is acceptable for getting into ANY derm program, even the top tier derms. I went to as average a medical school as you can get, yet interviewed at multiple top derm programs. I also saw other students on my interviews with the same story. However, I also saw that half of the applicants came from harvard, yale or another big name med school, so it certainly matters where you get your degrees. Still, it is much more important that you excell (as in top 5-10%) at your medical school, and the number 1 student at any med school with great board scores to boot will get double the interviews as an average student from harvard. The difference is that the average student at harvard actually can get interviews!(not so for joe shmoe from random school usa)

I agree with most of the above, but even with stratospheric board scores and aoa, getting love from top east and west coast programs is hit-or-miss if you're coming from a middle-tier place. It's worse if your middle-of-the-road med school is in the middle of the country. Now, if you have have letters from leaders in the field, >270 on step 1, or have no interest in the coasts, then things are different. Like any other uber competitive field in the world, aside from being talented, a big part of getting in (especially at the elite east coast institutions) is about who you know and from where you come. Can you get to an an elite east coast program without connections and/or pedigree? Sure, there are always outliers, but odds are not very good. Take home message: if you want derm, do well on the boards (especially step 1) and ace med school. If you want an elite derm program on either of the coasts make sure you attend a top 20 med school on top of those other things. Beyond the reputation of the institution, derms don't care about a combined bs/md program. Good luck!

Originally Posted by pupster

focus on doing well on your boards, young one...and why are you putting utsw in the crappy school list...certainly would put it among the top 5 programs in country for derm and better than brown, bu, case, baylor, and rochester for med schools.

I didn't put UT-Southwestern in the crappy school list though (I only identified 2), I put it under the heading of six-year Bachelor/MD programs. I realize what you were saying though after re-reading, as the second heading implies that the ones above it are not prestigious. Sorry about that. The UT-Dallas/UTSW program is relatively new and starting this year and I added it to the other three, that have always had six-year Bachelor/MD programs.

The reason I am asking the question now is because regardless of which Bachelor/MD program I enter (if I choose to do that route), I would be locked into that associated medical school, for all intents and purposes. While I would work hard to try to do well on boards (which I would do regardless), I thought that I would want to expand on other parts of the application, such as publications and research, as well. Thank you for your advice though.

Thank you to everyone here who answered my question on this thread: pupster, seldon1985, vicinihil, drdan766, and hawk126, as well as the PM message I received. Your opinions are invaluable to me.

With us being told by faculty and administration about all the positives of the Bachelor/MD program at that particular school, and how "special" and "cream of the crop" we are, it helps to see perspective from those who have gone or are going through the residency match process of whether it really makes a difference on the other end. Normally, I wouldn't even ask so far in advance about this, you're forced to choose the undergrad and medical school at once (unless you're lucky enough to be able to apply out to even a better medical school - which comes with risks of its own, like losing your guaranteed med school spot at the place you are at)

When it comes to rankings and reputations of medical schools by medical residency programs - is US World News and Report what is used?

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsa...edical-schools

http://www.residentphysician.com/Med...l_rankings.htm

The ranking lists that I saw for dermatology programs are this:

http://www.residentphysician.com/Der...y_rankings.htm

http://www.modernmedicine.com/modern....jsp?id=592583

Are they accurate?

Agree with drdan

It's going to be the whole package. One generally assumes that the person that got into a name medical school tends to work that much harder and push themselves that much more. It's funny how some of this does not hold true after people get into medical school. In fact a lot of people hold getting into med school as the ultimate goal until they realize in med school that you have to find a particular interest. It's it any crazy feat that USC seems to match so many people to derm each year...I think it's a function of the system and how much support the applicants receive. To the OP, the fact that you are on this forum and asking these questions automatically makes you an outlier. Now it depends on whether you can follow through on that. I rarely hear questions like this from someone this early. Schools look at 250+ as impressive. You do not need a 270+...the ones with that high of a board score that I met were weirdos and I found out their board score after the fact...go figure.

The Bacehlor-MD does not have any advantage whatsoever and so I agree with previous posts here. You'll want to think about geography as well. If you go to med school on the west coast, you will get preference for the west coast as well. If you are in the northeast you will get preference for the northeast.

Ranking of programs depends on who you ask. If you ask a surgeon, he or she will name the more reputable surgical programs, if you ask a pediatrician, schools with better peds programs will be subjectively higher, and if you ask a family practitioner, well University of Washington would be on the top of his or her list.

US News offers a rough outline. A school ranked 1-5 is going to be more reputable than a school ranked 40-45. But a school ranked 5 vs a school ranked 7?? I would take it all with a grain of salt. It

.

Hi, I can share some advice from personal experiences. Hopefully you will find them helpful. I can't reveal some details for privacy. These are just my opinions so hopefully no one finds it offensive.

My background: I am a medical student at one of BS/MD program.

1) Choose programs with derm department.
-If you can work in one of derm-related labs from undergraduate, then you can continue on with the same PI for long period of time. I think having a reliable mentor who has known you for a long time is a huge advantage that the program offers.
-One of the derm residents I got to work with this year was also from the program. He/She can end up staying at the hospital. Then, I can have someone who can vouch the validity of the program. Plus, it feels great to know that you have a mentor who took the same track.

2) 7,8,years>6years
-I am personally indifferent to this issue, but some physicians look down upon 6 year grad programs. So even if two candidates have exactly same stats, they prefer regular graduates over 6 year graduates. Plus, I greatly enjoyed being a worry-free pre-med life. I made great memories, got to appreciate a lot of things and met great people in undergraduate. A high school friend, who is in one of 6 programs, told me that he/she didn't really get to enjoy the undergrad life since everything goes by so fast (think about when they take mcat). Plus, you can always change your mind if you want in 7/8 years. In fact, I have several friends who went to top5 med schools instead. Some chose to go to business.

3) Miscellaneous stuff
-You don't have to worry about moving, finding place to live,etc.
-You are very familiar with the area it becomes your second home. (at least for me )

urgg i can't remember for now. its too late i guess i will finish it later lol

Name of medical school, grades during med school, and research matters.

Therefore, going to a 6 year program barely makes you a competent human being nonetheless a competitive applicant to Dermatology. I also don't know many very highly regarded med schools that participate in this. Another important point is time for research. If you're rushing to graduate, you are not getting that extra time to do research during either undergrad or med school.

I would lean towards a 7-8 year program, and apply out to a better school if you can. It matters.

Originally Posted by vicinihil

Name of medical school, grades during med school, and research matters.

Therefore, going to a 6 year program barely makes you a competent human being nonetheless a competitive applicant to Dermatology. I also don't know many very highly regarded med schools that participate in this. Another important point is time for research. If you're rushing to graduate, you are not getting that extra time to do research during either undergrad or med school.

I would lean towards a 7-8 year program, and apply out to a better school if you can. It matters.

The only ones with a 6 year program that actually have a highly regarded medical school are UT Southwestern and Jefferson Medical College. What do you mean by competent human being? In medicine? Or in life?

I ended up getting acceptances to every single combined program on the list in my original post above, so I have till May 1, to make a decision. I've been making a pros and cons list for each program.

I know for Dermatology or for any competitive field, high grades is important, so I'm wondering whether I should select the medical school based on which one has an easier grading system. Case Western's medical school has Pass/Fail grading, without internal ranking, the first 2 years, vs. UT Southwestern which is letter-graded ABCDF all 4 years.

USWNR College Rankings 2012
Pennsylvania State University - #45
University of Texas at Dallas - #143
University of Akron - Rank not Published
University of Missouri-Kansas City - #181
Brown University - #15
Northwestern University - #12
University of Pittsburgh - #58
Boston University - #53
Case Western Reserve University - #38
Rice University - #17
University of Rochester - #35

USWNR Medical School Rankings 2012
Jefferson Medical College - #57
UT Southwestern Medical School - #20
NEOMED - Unranked
University of Missouri-Kansas City - Unranked
Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University - #35
Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine - #18
University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine - #15
Boston University School of Medicine - #31
Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine - #24
Baylor College of Medicine - #21
University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry - #29

UTSW.
Good school, good derm dept and good time (6 yrs ftw!).
Also, don't take those rankings seriously. But, if you chose to take them into consideration, then at least know the metrics by which the rank is formed.

schools that are pass/fail are NOT what you think, if you ask me. It becomes that much harder to separate yourself on merit. Then you find out after all your hard work, that your final rank was based on shmoozing the administration and you had the wrong advisor. Give me letter grades any day. At least then you know you sink or swim by your own hand.

my 2 cents

Originally Posted by drdan766

schools that are pass/fail are NOT what you think, if you ask me. It becomes that much harder to separate yourself on merit. Then you find out after all your hard work, that your final rank was based on shmoozing the administration and you had the wrong advisor. Give me letter grades any day. At least then you know you sink or swim by your own hand.

my 2 cents

How would your ranking be based on shmoozing? Wouldn't they use your clinical rotation grades from the MS-3 year as ranking, or by your Step 1 board scores?

Step 3 has a lot to do with how much people like you. It is much less objective than the pre-clinical years. That said, i thought it was pretty easy to figure out how to excell. I am just saying it is more subjective than you may realize and i wouldnt want to gamble my career on one year of med school. Not all schools incorporate Step scores into rankings. Mine didnt.

Wouldnt you rather be judged on 3 years of accomplishments rather than 1? You also should note that everyone in your school will be jockying for 3rd year grades if it is the only time you are actually evaluated.

All i am saying is that pass/fail preclinical grades is not really a favor, depending how you look at it.

Also, note that some schools keep track of your rank even though it is officially pass/fail. Meaning, your grade matters but you dont know where you stand until rankings come out. I would rather know where i stood so i could step up my game if i needed to or relax, etc.

Let me offer a different perspective for the mix for just the grading issue...

I would choose pass/fail any day over grades. I think grades in the first two years make a competitive environment far too competitive. Step 1 matters a lot for derm residency and grades take away from your ability to study effectively for step 1 because you'll be spending time on your classes to the point that it may detract from what is important for step 1. You will still learn your basic science well with pass/fail without the extra issues of competition that come with it. Some schools do secretly keep track of rankings while others do not. Most of the schools do not as far as I know but it's something you might want to ask the upper years if you get a chance before you decide.

Third year is subjective but so is life. Time to get used to learning how to work in a team. I highly recommend reading Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people" so that you can learn how to have common sense if you don't have it already. Those that learn will do well and those that don't will complain that 3rd year is too subjective...

I completely agree with those statements, I just interpret them differently. everyone must make their own analysis . . . .

however, I also think that just studying for step 1 is a little . . . sad. It does not make you a better doctor to know step 1 material. Yes, you must do well. However, I find more and more that things I learned in 2nd year help me in the clinical years immensely. first year, i admit, rarely comes up as anything other than trivia. Step 1 is not so difficult that you need 2 YEARS to study for it. Not to mention, you better get used to performing well in medical school now, because you will be peers with the top students in the country if you match into derm.

but yes, there is an upside to pass/fail. it may be less competitive in the first 2 years and you will probably have more free time provided they don't secretly keep track of more precise grades, which is actually not uncommon. having more time to study for step 1 will make you very well prepared. You will probably even have time to do a fair amount of shadowing as a first and second year, and find out exactly what you want to do in medicine. I suppose that is a very, very good advantage, provided you actually shadow and learn what fits you best in life.

I hope my posts helped, I only mean to give you information to allow you to make your own decision.

Very valid points. Also wholeheartedly agree that just studying for step 1 would be sad and I think it needs to be a balance of learning the material well and being able to do well on step 1. I don't think Step 1 has any bearing on how good of a doctor you'll be and, unfortunately, the dermatology PDs perseverate on it. I think you're right that each person needs to do their own analysis though so that's a really excellent point.

People that are independent can function very well in a pass/fail system for the reasons that you point out. I can see how grades would be really beneficial for other personality types as well. My fear with grades is that it will make an already neurotic environment even more neurotic. I'll admit that the pass/fail system can make those that are lackadaisical even more so.

Like drdan, throwing another opinion into the mix to hopefully help...

I don't thinking doing well in classes is mutually exclusive or detrimental to doing well on your boards. In fact in my experience, the trend has been that those students who do well in their classes do the best on the boards. Maybe this is just at my school, but the best advice I got from upperclassmen who did well on the boards and the one I have been giving to the underclassmen is to just focus on your classwork, learn the material right the first time around so that when it comes times for reviewing for the boards, it will actually be reviewing and not re-learning.

Originally Posted by sawtella

I don't thinking doing well in classes is mutually exclusive or detrimental to doing well on your boards. In fact in my experience, the trend has been that those students who do well in their classes do the best on the boards. Maybe this is just at my school, but the best advice I got from upperclassmen who did well on the boards and the one I have been giving to the underclassmen is to just focus on your classwork, learn the material right the first time around so that when it comes times for reviewing for the boards, it will actually be reviewing and not re-learning.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, verbatim. I have advocated this to my classmates/underclassmen as well as people on this site, and I truly do believe it.

Also, my school has "traditional" grades and is not just pass/fail, and not once did I ever feel that it fostered any level of "competition" or neuroticism beyond students may already possess when entering medical school. Perhaps it's because although we are graded, there is no set curve (i.e. everyone can theoretically get an A in any course), so there's no feeling of "I have to sabotage someone else to get ahead" whatsoever.

I have exactly one week to decide (May 1 is decision day). I've been reading all of your posts intently and continuing to make pro & con lists for each medical school with the Bachelor/MD program. Below is the grading policy at each medical school.

Jefferson Medical College - #57
Preclinical: Honors, Pass, Fail
Clinical: High Honors, Excellent, Good, Marginal Competence, Fail

UT Southwestern Medical School - #20
Preclinical: 1st semester is Pass/Fail; A, B+, B, C, & F thereafter
Clinical: A, B+, B, C, & F

NEOMED - Unranked
Preclinical: Honors, Pass, Fail
Clinical: Honors, Pass, Fail

University of Missouri-Kansas City - Unranked
Preclinical: Letter graded
Clinical: Honors/High Pass/Satisfactory Pass/Marginal Pass/Fail
GPA is cumulative from the 1st year of the program till the 6th year, GPA does not start over for the medical school part

Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University - #35
Preclinical: satisfactory/no-credit first semester; honors/satisfactory/no-credit thereafter
Clinical: Honors/satisfactory/no-credit

Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine - #18
Preclinical: Pass/Fail; Test scores are maintained internally for AOA consideration
Clinical: Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail

University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine - #15
Preclinical: Honors, Satisfactory, Unsatisfactory.
Clinical: Honors, High Pass, Pass, Low Pass, Unsatisfactory.

Boston University School of Medicine - #31
Preclinical: Pass, Fail (not sure about internal ranking)
Clinical: Honors, High Pass, Pass, Fail

Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine - #24
Preclinical: Pass, Fail with no class ranking (http://casemed.case.edu/admissions/process/faq.cfm - under "What is the grading system?")
Clinical: Honors, Commendable, Satisfactory, and Unsatisfactory
***Preclinical curriculum is 18 months, instead of 2 years***
***4 months of Research and Scholarship*** included: http://casemed.case.edu/curricularaf...2Res&Schol.cfm

Baylor College of Medicine - #21
Preclinical: Pass, Fail (grades kept internally for AOA consideration)
Clinical: Honors, High Pass, Pass, Marginal Pass, Fail
***Preclinical curriculum is 15.5 months, instead of 2 years***
http://www.bcm.edu/osa/handbook/index.cfm?pmid=5608
***Can take USMLE Step 1 when you choose, as long as it is before you graduate***

University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry - #29
Preclinical: Pass, Fail (grades kept internally for AOA consideration)
Clinical: Honors, High Pass, Pass, Pass Marginal, Fail

You are overthinking this.

To answer your original questions:
1) I think you would be looked at UNfavorably having gone through an accelerated program, I think everyone could and would benefit from 4 years of college
2) It would not be helpful to get involved in dermatology projects as a college student.

As others have noted, people change their minds repeatedly when it comes to specialty choice even in medical school, let alone college. It would be a mistake to select a college and a medical school based solely on a perceived interest in a specialty at this age.

I would use any of the below (or a combination of the below) to select a school:
- affordability
- your "gut" feeling when touring the school
- a school with a derm department (just in case)
- proximity to friends/family

I would not select a school based on rankings (often not relevant to how well the dermatology department is doing) and certainly not on its grading scale.

Originally Posted by asmallchild

You are overthinking this....

As others have noted, people change their minds repeatedly when it comes to specialty choice even in medical school, let alone college. It would be a mistake to select a college and a medical school based solely on a perceived interest in a specialty at this age.

I would use any of the below (or a combination of the below) to select a school:
- affordability
- your "gut" feeling when touring the school
- a school with a derm department (just in case)
- proximity to friends/family

I would not select a school based on rankings (often not relevant to how well the dermatology department is doing) and certainly not on its grading scale.

The Truth.

Originally Posted by asmallchild

You are overthinking this.

To answer your original questions:
1) I think you would be looked at UNfavorably having gone through an accelerated program, I think everyone could and would benefit from 4 years of college
2) It would not be helpful to get involved in dermatology projects as a college student.

As others have noted, people change their minds repeatedly when it comes to specialty choice even in medical school, let alone college. It would be a mistake to select a college and a medical school based solely on a perceived interest in a specialty at this age.

I would use any of the below (or a combination of the below) to select a school:
- affordability
- your "gut" feeling when touring the school
- a school with a derm department (just in case)
- proximity to friends/family

I would not select a school based on rankings (often not relevant to how well the dermatology department is doing) and certainly not on its grading scale.

I think the grades issue has been discussed extensively here and agreed that the whole package is more important than the individual parts . You can succeed no matter where you go and I'm sure many of us know people that have done well from every medical school on your list.

Every school will have strengths and deficiencies in the curriculum of the first two years. There will be classes that will be taught amazing and others where they are not. You're going to have to augment your learning no matter where you go...

Originally Posted by asmallchild

To answer your original questions:
1) I think you would be looked at UNfavorably having gone through an accelerated program, I think everyone could and would benefit from 4 years of college
2) It would not be helpful to get involved in dermatology projects as a college student.

Why would it not be helpful to get involved in dermatology projects, that could possible lead to publication, as a college student?

Originally Posted by YouthfulSkin

Why would it not be helpful to get involved in dermatology projects, that could possible lead to publication, as a college student?

If you truly find the research interesting then by all means you should do so. But try to take advantage of other opportunities that are available during your time in college such as other social programs, education abroad programs, etc. I think people really do have an opportunity to grow up in college and it's important to keep your experiences open.

That said, my personal opinion is that it is fruitful to do so IN THE RIGHT SETTING. I know several undergraduate that are working on dermatology related research projects and they are learning the research method more than anything and I think it's really helped them grow more confident with presenting at undergraduate conferences. I don't know if any of them will go into dermatology as it's too early to tell, and some are going to go on entirely different paths. You will need a different time frame than a grad or medical student and your mentor needs to account for that. Your grades in undergrad and your other experiences are very very important and so midterms and studying are going to come first over the project in hand. You also need to be given a project that is sizeable but allows for potential for publication if you are able to demonstrate follow-through. I've seen far too many undergrads (with real potential) that were asked to wash dishes and go-fer collection of mundane library works. That said, there are many undergrads that do not deliver. You'll want to be with a person that has an open mind but is willing to see where you are at and work with you. The same undergrads that were washing dishes in one lab were given a different opportunity in another lab and shined and are presenting abstracts and will eventually be middle authors on publications that are being submitted.

You should do research in undergrad to really learn about research and it's a unique opportunity to do so during undergrad. I engaged in research in undergrad and I'm very happy I did so because I really learned about some of the frustrations in research (a very important lesson) and it helped me better pick mentors in the future when I had several options. However, none of my undergrad experiences were in derm but nonetheless, they opened my eyes to the scientific method and that it's ok to think outside the box.

The people that you work with will make all the difference and a mentor that understands the difference between undergrads/grad/med students will be a boon for your learning. A mentor that does not will likely leave you with a sour taste if you end up having a negative experience. So, research is great, but as an undergrad, you've got to do it IN THE RIGHT SETTING realizing that there are many other experiences that you may want to do instead during your time in undergrad. I did research and don't regret it one bit and found it inspirational. I also had friends that had bad experiences that left them feeling like they had wasted their time.

If it's derm that your wondering about, then you'll have to pick the right dermatology project. You will likely not be useful in a clinical study. You could potentially be useful in a basic science study but this can take many years and could be potentially challenging with your time constraints. Survey studies and online studies may be more useful but you'll need to find a supportive team since there can be many steps involved such as IRBs, development of the survey, paperwork, analysis, etc. Other projects could include behavioral, economical, appropriately guided literature reviews, etc. but it's hard to generalize without knowing the details of any one individual project.

As a side note, I have personally worked with both wonderful and not so great undergraduates and the wonderful ones did get publications out of the project including abstracts and peer-reviewed journal articles. None of the undergrads went on into dermatology but they did go on into research and health related fields, including medicine outside of dermatology, and all of them felt like they had a great experience. The not so great ones ended up not accomplishing much research wise and hopefully learned something useful about themselves despite the unproductive experience. It's unsatisfying, to say the least, on the mentor to spend time with an undergrad and then have that person not follow through...so do your best to follow through and be up front if the research turns out not to be your cup of tea.

For those who were curious, after many pro and con lists, a lot of Googling, and mainly going through the advice in this thread, I decided to go to the Rice University/Baylor College of Medicine program. I had many reasons to do so - almost all of them not related to Dermatology, as I realize 17 years old is probably very young to make a higher education school decision based on a specialty, nearly a decade away, that I may or may not enter or want to enter (a lot can change in 8 years ).

A lot can change in medical schools when it comes to grading scheme, faculty in the Dermatology department, how often home Derm departments like taking their own students, etc. So while I researched it all, I ended up taking it out of the equation.

I also wanted to make sure that I actually enjoy and personally grow during my undergraduate years, since I won't get those fun years back when I start medical school (that was a huge negative for me with the UT-Dallas and UT-Southwestern Medical School 6 year BS/MD program in which the undergraduate portion would only be 2 years before I hop into UT Southwestern's Medical School.)

Thank you to everyone for all your help. It was very beneficial and helpful to me in making a good, well-informed decision, that works for me.

Originally Posted by YouthfulSkin

For those who were curious, after many pro and con lists, a lot of Googling, and mainly going through the advice in this thread, I decided to go to the Rice University/Baylor College of Medicine program. I had many reasons to do so - almost all of them not related to Dermatology, as I realize 17 years old is probably very young to make a higher education school decision based on a specialty, nearly a decade away, that I may or may not enter or want to enter (a lot can change in 8 years ).

A lot can change in medical schools when it comes to grading scheme, faculty in the Dermatology department, how often home Derm departments like taking their own students, etc. So while I researched it all, I ended up taking it out of the equation.

I also wanted to make sure that I actually enjoy and personally grow during my undergraduate years, since I won't get those fun years back when I start medical school (that was a huge negative for me with the UT-Dallas and UT-Southwestern Medical School 6 year BS/MD program in which the undergraduate portion would only be 2 years before I hop into UT Southwestern's Medical School.)

Thank you to everyone for all your help. It was very beneficial and helpful to me in making a good, well-informed decision, that works for me.

Congratulations, sounds like you made a great choice and for all the right reasons. Best of luck to you

Originally Posted by YouthfulSkin

For those who were curious, after many pro and con lists, a lot of Googling, and mainly going through the advice in this thread, I decided to go to the Rice University/Baylor College of Medicine program. I had many reasons to do so - almost all of them not related to Dermatology, as I realize 17 years old is probably very young to make a higher education school decision based on a specialty, nearly a decade away, that I may or may not enter or want to enter (a lot can change in 8 years ).

A lot can change in medical schools when it comes to grading scheme, faculty in the Dermatology department, how often home Derm departments like taking their own students, etc. So while I researched it all, I ended up taking it out of the equation.

I also wanted to make sure that I actually enjoy and personally grow during my undergraduate years, since I won't get those fun years back when I start medical school (that was a huge negative for me with the UT-Dallas and UT-Southwestern Medical School 6 year BS/MD program in which the undergraduate portion would only be 2 years before I hop into UT Southwestern's Medical School.)

Thank you to everyone for all your help. It was very beneficial and helpful to me in making a good, well-informed decision, that works for me.

Excellent!

Originally Posted by pupster

focus on doing well on your boards, young one...and why are you putting utsw in the crappy school list...certainly would put it among the top 5 programs in country for derm and better than brown, bu, case, baylor, and rochester for med schools.

where in the world did UTSW become that good in Derm...and how is it better than Case or baylor?