2011 Canadia DS GPA-DAT

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Our cousins to the north like to brag how applicants with gpa lower than a ~3.9 need not bother applying. The claim may be a bit of an exaggeration.

Originally Posted by doc toothache

Our cousins to the north like to brag how applicants with gpa lower than a ~3.9 need not bother applying. The claim may be a bit of an exaggeration.

average GPA


3.86
3.72
4.00
3.9
3.9
87.06 -> 85=3.9


how is that an exaggeration?

I would even go even further to say anyone who can get in any Canadian DS has enough academic credential capable of getting in ANY US DS (including Harvard).

I remember going on the UBC DS tour and the dean mentioned that in their current 4th year class 3 people got 99 on the NBDE (out of a class of45). And not even everyone chose to take it, only those who wanted to go down south after they graduate from a Canadian DS.

Originally Posted by doc toothache

Our cousins to the north like to brag how applicants with gpa lower than a ~3.9 need not bother applying. The claim may be a bit of an exaggeration.

This is true. But... I'd like to point out that the majority of these schools ONLY look at GPA, DAT and interview score (and put it into the 50/25/25 weighting scheme..or something along those lines depending on the school) for you to gain admission. No reference, no personal statement...no CV of any kind. So, if you're like me and on the lower end of the GPA scale and don't kick @$$ in the interview and your DAT, you're SOL. So, having that 3.9 GPA just makes it a bit easier on yourself to gain admission.

Do you mean American applicants with <3.9 need not bother applying?

Unfortunately it's true. Any of the lower GPA seen in the admissions statistics for Canadian schools are undoubtedly for in-province students who are also likely to have other things going for them, ie. graduate degrees, Aboriginal status, etc. For the most part, you really do need to be at the top of your game. Only a couple schools in Canada even bother accepting applications from American students, and they'd better be exceedingly overqualified.

Besides, according to the average GPA figures, looks like for every student with a sub 3.6 GPA that is enrolled, there are 5-10 enrollees with GPAs in the 3.8-4.0 range to offset it.

Also keep in mind that, for example, for Toronto and UWO, those GPAs are on an OMSAS scale, not an AADSAS scale. 4.33 doesn't exist. A 3.9 GPA is in the ballpark of a 90% average.

yeahhhh it's way way way harder to be accepted into Canada. In Canada you also don't really have much of a choice of where you go because each school typically has a 90% in-province quota system - for a school like U of A that's just 3 out of province people... so if you want to go anywhere other than your province then you have to have a 4.0 GPA ... from the stats i've encountered, they won't interview an OOP applicant with anything less than a 3.9

also, the majority of the Canadian schools calculate GPA on a 4.0 scale... so they don't get any benefit from having an A+

Originally Posted by stevesteve121

how is that an exaggeration?

It was referring to the low range of 3.3/3.5.

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

also, the majority of the Canadian schools calculate GPA on a 4.0 scale... so they don't get any benefit from having an A+

Originally Posted by GobBluth

Also keep in mind that, for example, for Toronto and UWO, those GPAs are on an OMSAS scale, not an AADSAS scale. 4.33 doesn't exist. A 3.9 GPA is in the ballpark of a 90% average.

No need for a 4.33 when an 84 will get you a 3.9 and 75 or 80 will get you a 3.7.
http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/c_omsas_b.pdf

Originally Posted by doc toothache

No need for a 4.33 when an 84 will get you a 3.9 and 75 or 80 will get you a 3.7.
http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/c_omsas_b.pdf

You seem to have read the chart completely wrong. You took Scale 4 as the example of getting a 3.9 with an 84%. Look at the legend underneath. Only applicants from the Royal Military College of Canada have their grades converted under Scale 4. Very, very few applicants come from there. Even if ALL of Canadian student applications came, by some freak circumstance, from the RMC, it wouldn't apply to American applicants. This chart is only for Canadian university graduates. When I quoted 3.9 as being a 90% average, that's just echoing average matriculant grades I'm aware of for U of T (seeing as most U of T applicants are from Ontario and are under Scales 3 and 7).

It depends entirely upon an applicant's transcript and what sorts of conversion factors are listed there, and if percentages or letter grades are used. I don't know of any American applicants to Canadian schools in the first place, so I'm not sure how it would work, but it certainly wouldn't be 84% = 3.9.

Thank you for compiling data on Canadian schools, but unfortunately your argument doesn't really hold true, and you appear to have misinterpreted the data. If Canadian applicants bemoan the difficulty of getting into Canadian schools, it's because it truly is difficult (from an academics perspective).

Canadians are usually at the top of the applicant pool in terms of numbers. I know a few Canadians with not so good undergrad stats, but generally they have higher gpa/dat scores.

The Excel file is misleading. The low end GPAs are for in-province students for schools with protectionist policies. You can get into UBC with an 80% average if you're a BC student, for example. Similar for Quebec schools. Schools with more lax policies and no quotas (such as UWO) have exceptionally high averages (~90% this year for UWO). U of T is no slouch either (average interviewee last year had 3.85, average matriculant 3.9).

Originally Posted by doc toothache

It was referring to the low range of 3.3/3.5.





No need for a 4.33 when an 84 will get you a 3.9 and 75 or 80 will get you a 3.7.
http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/c_omsas_b.pdf

the only school under column 4 is the military school

they get a break for obvious reasons

Originally Posted by dskies

This is true. But... I'd like to point out that the majority of these schools ONLY look at GPA, DAT and interview score (and put it into the 50/25/25 weighting scheme..or something along those lines depending on the school) for you to gain admission. No reference, no personal statement...no CV of any kind. So, if you're like me and on the lower end of the GPA scale and don't kick @$$ in the interview and your DAT, you're SOL. So, having that 3.9 GPA just makes it a bit easier on yourself to gain admission.

this is just a blatant lie

you do need to write a PS, your EC experiences, awards, and reference letters...

Originally Posted by hmmmmm

this is just a blatant lie

you do need to write a PS, your EC experiences, awards, and reference letters...

Not for the Ontario schools, U of T and UWO. Getting an interview at those schools is a pure numbers game.

Though I'd wager to say that while in the States, a high DAT score or other aspects of your application (research, dental experience, etc.) can buoy a lower GPA, it is MUCH more difficult to make up for a low GPA for Canadian schools. Even a 100th percentile DAT doesn't matter as much as an extra 2% on your GPA (since the standard deviation in GPAs is so tiny; every percent matters, and DAT scores account for only 10-15% of the overall admissions decision). Cut-offs are very, very strict.

Originally Posted by hmmmmm

this is just a blatant lie

you do need to write a PS, your EC experiences, awards, and reference letters...

U of A doesn't need any of those things either, along with UWO and U of T. I'm a resident of both Alberta and Ontario, and having just interviewed at those three schools I think I know what I've submitted for my application, and what my admission is based on.

Originally Posted by doc toothache

It was referring to the low range of 3.3/3.5.





No need for a 4.33 when an 84 will get you a 3.9 and 75 or 80 will get you a 3.7.
http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/c_omsas_b.pdf

Yeah, you definitely misunderstood...

Many schools use the omsas conversion to convert your GPA, my specific school lies under column 7... Basically what they do is take your letter grade (because our transcripts don't show %) and they convert the lett... So an A from a column 7 school equates to a 3.9 on the omsas scale, for me to achieve a 4.0 I have to have A+!

Now at my institution the grade scale goes like this:
A+ = 98-100%
A = 94-97%
A- = 90-93%
B+ = 86-89%
B. = 82-85%
B- = 78-81%

So for me to get a 4.0 using that scale, I would need at least 98% in every class....and a 75 would get me a very beautiful 2.3!!!

The only school where you can get a 3.7 from a 75 is at RMC (royal military college of Canada)

Also, I'm pretty sure that McGill is the only school asking for a personal statement

Originally Posted by dskies

U of A doesn't need any of those things either, along with UWO and U of T. I'm a resident of both Alberta and Ontario, and having just interviewed at those three schools I think I know what I've submitted for my application, and what my admission is based on.

You're a resident of both? Lucky!

If you don't mind me asking, did you get into UToronto? UWO results are out any day now. Also, I believe U of A should be out soon as well? PM me if you'd like.

UWO is being really quiet. I'm dying to find out how I did on my interview. Do they release the scores?

Originally Posted by montreal1

UWO is being really quiet. I'm dying to find out how I did on my interview. Do they release the scores?

Nope. They don't even tell you if you were above, at, or below the average. They also neglect to tell you where you rank on the waitlist should you be placed on it. There's little to no transparency.

Originally Posted by GobBluth

Nope. They don't even tell you if you were above, at, or below the average. They also neglect to tell you where you rank on the waitlist should you be placed on it. There's little to no transparency.

That would be sooooo annoooooying !! Also l many Canadian school use or are converting to the MMI interview format... so you don't even really get to show them who you are, the MMI is basically just like another exam

Originally Posted by GobBluth

You seem to have read the chart completely wrong. You took Scale 4 as the example of getting a 3.9 with an 84%. Look at the legend underneath. Only applicants from the Royal Military College of Canada have their grades converted under Scale 4.

Those darn charts are so complicated.

Originally Posted by yellowishbluish

the only school under column 4 is the military school
they get a break for obvious reasons

Of course. We would not want our future officers to claim their grades were mediocre. Heck no! With a 75 they can claim to have been A students.

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

Yeah, you definitely misunderstood...
Now at my institution the grade scale goes like this:
A+ = 98-100%;A = 94-97%,A- = 90-93%;B+ = 86-89%;B. = 82-85%;B- = 78-81%
The only school where you can get a 3.7 from a 75 is at RMC (royal military college of Canada)

Mount Royal is the only school in Canada whose range is the one you described. The only other Canadian institution with a high requirement for an A+ is St. Thomas More College at 96-100.

Originally Posted by doc toothache

Mount Royal is the only school in Canada whose range is the one you described. The only other Canadian institution with a high requirement for an A+ is St. Thomas More College at 96-100.

From this we can conclude that you have been misinformed...

here is a picture of the evaluations portion straight from my Organic Chemistry course outline enjoy ....

Originally Posted by doc toothache

Mount Royal is the only school in Canada whose range is the one you described. The only other Canadian institution with a high requirement for an A+ is St. Thomas More College at 96-100.

heres a the typical grading scale for the University of Calgary, straight out of a Geophysics Course outline...

now take a look at the OMSAS chart and you will see that it is under column 7 as well, indicating that you need to get 95+ at the U of C just for a 4.0 on the scale

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

From this we can conclude that you have been misinformed...here is a picture of the evaluations portion straight from my Organic Chemistry course outline enjoy ....

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

heres a the typical grading scale for the University of Calgary, straight out of a Geophysics Course outline...

now take a look at the OMSAS chart and you will see that it is under column 7 as well, indicating that you need to get 95+ at the U of C just for a 4.0 on the scale

You seem to be confusing an individual course grade scale with the college policy. Apparently OMSAS, OLSAS and McMaster University are equally misinformed.
http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/c_omsas_b.pdf
http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/olsas/c_olsas_b.pdf
http://studentsuccess.mcmaster.ca/re...ion-chart.html

Originally Posted by doc toothache

You seem to be confusing an individual course grade scale with the college policy. Apparently OMSAS, OLSAS and McMaster University are equally misinformed.
http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/c_omsas_b.pdf
http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/olsas/c_olsas_b.pdf
http://studentsuccess.mcmaster.ca/re...ion-chart.html

see, you still don't understand how to use the chart!!

the 2 course grade scales are the standard for both universities, in all the courses I've taken, I've yet to find any deviation. At the U of C 70-80% of undergradute courses share this scale, the only classes that I have even heard of deviating are Engineering courses...

instructions

1. find your school in the table at the bottom
2. Identify the number associated with your school
3. near the top there will be a row of numbers 1 to 9
4. now, the only columns of any relevance to you is the column associated with your school (in the case of UofC it's number 7 and and OMSAS value column to the left
5. say for instance you took one class at the UofC and recieved a 94% which will grant you an A
6. to find the OMSAS GPA value, find A under column 7, then go straight left until you find the associated GPA, in this case it will be 3.9
7. by this you can conclude that your UofC 94% is equivelent to a 3.9 on the OMSAS conversion chart

here is another example from the second best university in Canada:

its an OMSAS column 7 school so an A+ is equired for a 4.0

according to their grade scale that means you need a 90+
http://webapps.utsc.utoronto.ca/aacc...ulate-your-gpa

Again, I will enlighten you on the fact that most schools in Canada don't grant a 4.3 for A+ like the AADSAS does

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

instructions

1. find your school in the table at the bottom
2. Identify the number associated with your school
3. near the top there will be a row of numbers 1 to 9
4. now, the only columns of any relevance to you is the column associated with your school (in the case of UofC it's number 7 and and OMSAS value column to the left
5. say for instance you took one class at the UofC and recieved a 94% which will grant you an A
6. to find the OMSAS GPA value, find A under column 7, then go straight left until you find the associated GPA, in this case it will be 3.9
7. by this you can conclude that your UofC 94% is equivelent to a 3.9 on the OMSAS conversion chart

Having trouble following your own directions?

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

here is another example from the second best university in Canada:
its an OMSAS column 7 school so an A+ is equired for a 4.0

according to their grade scale that means you need a 90+
http://webapps.utsc.utoronto.ca/aacc...ulate-your-gpa
Again, I will enlighten you on the fact that most schools in Canada don't grant a 4.3 for A+ like the AADSAS does

The OP points out that, unlike Canadian, US universities do not award an A (A-) with an 80. ADEA/AADSAS is not a point granting institution. It converts the various grading system to a standardized grade, not unlike that used by OMSAS. OLSAS, McMaster. In spite of your assertion, you might find it harder to find US institutions with A+ as part of their grading system. A preliminary review of the first 34 Canadian institutions listed in the document shows 18 schools that do indeed have the A+. In any case, this is pretty much irrelevant, since in the US, ADEA standardizes the gpa to a 4.0 system. Without a centralized application process, Canadian ds can and do use whatever system they wish. Manitoba converts an A+ to 4.5; Dalhousie converts an A+ to 4.3 and Saskatchewan converts an A+ to 93; A to 88 and A- to 83.

Originally Posted by doc toothache

Having trouble following your own directions?


The OP points out that, unlike Canadian, US universities do not award an A (A-) with an 80. ADEA/AADSAS is not a point granting institution. It converts the various grading system to a standardized grade, not unlike that used by OMSAS. OLSAS, McMaster. In spite of your assertion, you might find it harder to find US institutions with A+ as part of their grading system. A preliminary review of the first 34 Canadian institutions listed in the document shows 18 schools that do indeed have the A+. In any case, this is pretty much irrelevant, since in the US, ADEA standardizes the gpa to a 4.0 system. Without a centralized application process, Canadian ds can and do use whatever system they wish. Manitoba converts an A+ to 4.5; Dalhousie converts an A+ to 4.3 and Saskatchewan converts an A+ to 93; A to 88 and A- to 83.

Are you serious? you still don't understand? If you aren't joking then you're hopeless!
A 94% at the U of C is a 3.9 on the OMSAS scale and it is a 4.0 at the U of C. The U of C is not a dental school so the 4.0 isn't relevant. What is so hard to understand?!... maybe you are confused by the 94-100 under column 6 directly to the left. This 94-100 is only relevant to grades attained at Memorial University and it is completely independant of the other 53/54 universities listed.

34 schools huh? well if you haven't noticed there are 10 dental schools in Canada... the GPA you get from your university DOESN'T MATTER If you go to 40/54 schools listed on the OMSAS, this is because you're letter grade or number (out of 9) is interpreted. YES you can get an A+ but an an A at most Universities listed (3.9) is worth less than an A from a university like Mcgill (4.0). Just look at the chart and thing, an A at the U of Alberta is worth a 3.9, and A at York U is worth a 3.8 and an A at McGill is worth 4.0

York A < UofC A < McGill A

York: 90% = 4.0 or 89% = 3.8 or 89% York = 3.8
UofC: 95% = 4.0 or 94% = 3.9 or 89% UofC = 3.7
McGill: 85% = 4.0 or 84% = 3.7 or 89% McGill = 4.0

Also those 3 schools may be an exception, it's also valuable to understand that Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the two smallest dental schools in all of Canada having 29 and 28 seats each.
What a tiny representation

cheers

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

Also those 3 schools may be an exception, it's also valuable to understand that Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the two smallest dental schools in all of Canada having 29 and 28 seats each.
What a tiny representation

The 3 schools actually represent ~20% (tiny) of the Can ds enrollees. Not that the multiplying facor is particularly important, but you can add Laval at 4.33 and Montreal at 4.3(?). Can you find a handful of, preferably bonafide, US universities where an 80 is an A-?

Originally Posted by doc toothache

The 3 schools actually represent ~20% (tiny) of the Can ds enrollees. Not that the multiplying facor is particularly important, but you can add Laval at 4.33 and Montreal at 4.3(?). Can you find a handful of, preferably bonafide, US universities where an 80 is an A-?

this argument has already ended, good try

Also, I'd like to see what happens if you would post something like this on premed101

here's the link: http://www.premed101.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

this argument has already ended, good try Also, I'd like to see what happens if you would post something like this on premed101 here's the link: http://www.premed101.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...2#post12508222

Originally Posted by doc toothache

The 3 schools actually represent ~20% (tiny) of the Can ds enrollees. Not that the multiplying facor is particularly important, but you can add Laval at 4.33 and Montreal at 4.3(?). Can you find a handful of, preferably bonafide, US universities where an 80 is an A-?

Can you find me a Canadian School that on average accepts a cGPA of 2.94 (Howard)

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

Can you find me a Canadian School that on average accepts a cGPA of 2.94 (Howard)

The cgpa for Howard is actually 3.09. An 87.06 in the US would be equivalent to a 3.0 and there is one fitting the description. But, then there are no ds north of the border devoted to minorities. Where is that list of US universities where an 80 will buy you an A-?

Originally Posted by MOUTHLOVER

this argument has already ended, good try Also, I'd like to see what happens if you would post something like this on premed101 here's the link: http://www.premed101.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7

What happened to the promise?

Doc,
you dropped the ball on this one. The percent grading scheme you keep on referring to is relative, not absolute, so your cross-national comparison based on percent grades is flawed. Maybe they didn't teach you about using the baseline when you were in school, but you should research further into class avgs, SD etc before making such claims.

Anyways, no one here is proud of high admission avgs up here.It just shows that there are not enough schools and either don't have resources or desire to screen applicants based on their overall applications.

By the way, I'd just like to say... I apologize if I seem a bit rude Doc Toothache.

I really appreciate your information gathering