Having a non-work life if you go into surgery - is it possible?

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Everything I hear about surgery is work, work work. 80 hours per week minimum, always on call, etc. How feasible is it to get a surgery gig for 40-50 hrs/week and limitied call. I'm interested in surgery, but I'm also interested in the rest of my damn life.

Originally Posted by SchroedingrsCat

Everything I hear about surgery is work, work work. 80 hours per week minimum, always on call, etc. How feasible is it to get a surgery gig for 40-50 hrs/week and limitied call. I'm interested in surgery, but I'm also interested in the rest of my damn life.

Not likely. Expect to work at least 60+ hours a week (@ times 80+). Call depends on the surgical field, but expect to have a healthy amount especially at the beginning of your career.

Originally Posted by SchroedingrsCat

Everything I hear about surgery is work, work work. 80 hours per week minimum, always on call, etc. How feasible is it to get a surgery gig for 40-50 hrs/week and limitied call. I'm interested in surgery, but I'm also interested in the rest of my damn life.

That's exactly why I'm not going into surgery. It's not worth giving up your life, in my opinion. But, some people feel differently. As I heard one surgeon say, "Wives come and go, but surgery is forever."

What do you value more? A balanced or a primarily work-oriented life?

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

Not likely. Expect to work at least 60+ hours a week (@ times 80+). Call depends on the surgical field, but expect to have a healthy amount especially at the beginning of your career.

Bingo. Even the "lifestyle" surgical specialties like ENT and urology still maintain ~60 hr work weeks in the majority of practice scenarios as far as I can tell. Things can taper down when you're established in your career, but any flavor of surgeon tends to work pretty hard relative to their peers in other specialties.

That said, I'd argue you can still have a life and work 60+ hrs per week. The extra 10-15 hrs/wk that you're sacrificing by becoming a surgeon wouldn't have otherwise made you into an incredible parent or dynamic individual anyway... You will make time for what matters to you, whether it's spending time with your family or rock climbing or whatever. As they say "the hours never get better, but you get better at the hours."

Originally Posted by TheRunner

That's exactly why I'm not going into surgery. It's not worth giving up your life, in my opinion. But, some people feel differently. As I heard one surgeon say, "Wives come and go, but surgery is forever."

That guy's probably gonna be 60 with a ton of money and "success" but no one to share it with..

You can't do it alone.

Originally Posted by TheRunner

That's exactly why I'm not going into surgery. It's not worth giving up your life, in my opinion. But, some people feel differently. As I heard one surgeon say, "Wives come and go, but surgery is forever."

Merkel?

Originally Posted by VisionaryTics

Merkel?

Huh? Is it some sort of famous quote? It was said jokingly. But I can see where there might be some truth to it. I don't think my wife would stick around if I were pulling 80 hour weeks permanently.

Originally Posted by TheRunner

Huh? Is it some sort of famous quote? It was said jokingly. But I can see where there might be some truth to it. I don't think my wife would stick around if I were pulling 80 hour weeks permanently.

We had an old dinosaur vascular surgeon who helped out in anatomy lab named Dr. Merkel. This was one of his favorite quotes. Pretty sure he was serious.

I honestly would hope that there are women out there especially in our generation (early 20s) who would be understanding of the hours of this lifestyle. If its what truly makes you happy as a physician why should you have to pick a specialty you don't enjoy as much? It's sad to imagine someone leaving you because you work 80 hours a week. You make time and make it work.

Originally Posted by SchroedingrsCat

Everything I hear about surgery is work, work work. 80 hours per week minimum, always on call, etc. How feasible is it to get a surgery gig for 40-50 hrs/week and limitied call. I'm interested in surgery, but I'm also interested in the rest of my damn life.

Surgery is work, work, work because practice, practice, practice makes perfect, perfect, perfect.

Originally Posted by The Imprisoned

I honestly would hope that there are women out there especially in our generation (early 20s) who would be understanding of the hours of this lifestyle. If its what truly makes you happy as a physician why should you have to pick a specialty you don't enjoy as much? It's sad to imagine someone leaving you because you work 80 hours a week. You make time and make it work.

My wife said if I pursue surgery, she would support me all the way through....

...As long as I give her all my money.

...Then again, she will still take all my money if I don't go into surgery.

Originally Posted by kautionwirez

My wife said if I pursue surgery, she would support me all the way through....

...As long as I give her all my money.

...Then again, she will still take all my money if I don't go into surgery.

At least she said she'll stay! Lol

People complaining about 60 hour work weeks in this thread made me laugh hard. Come on guys.

Originally Posted by JP2740

People complaining about 60 hour work weeks in this thread made me laugh hard. Come on guys.

Not us complaining lol. Its the significant others.

Originally Posted by The Imprisoned

Not us complaining lol. Its the significant others.

Don't put that ***** on a pedestal. Do what you want to do and run with it. She'll stick around because all women see are $$$.

Probably easier to say without a wife but to be honest man, that's ****ed up if you just end up running your life according to her.

Originally Posted by JP2740

Don't put that ***** on a pedestal. Do what you want to do and run with it. She'll stick around because all women see are $$$.

Probably easier to say without a wife but to be honest man, that's ****ed up if you just end up running your life according to her.

Yeah but don't you think it's ****ed up if you don't take her opinion into consideration? Your life decisions are going to significantly impact her life, so shouldn't she have a say?

Originally Posted by The Imprisoned

At least she said she'll stay! Lol

Oh yeah, she'll be staying... with her live-in boyfriend while you're in the OR.

You only live once, go for your dreams and ignore anyone in your way. Including a nagging wife. Nag nag nag nag nag

Surgery is like going off to war. Be prepared to forfeit your life.

if you don't want to work bad hours as a surgeon, move to an underserved community and start your own practice (or join one in desparate need). You can choose your own hours. My uncle works 2 hours from a major city out west as an orthopod. His clinic days are 7-noon 2 days a week. His OR days are 7-2, 2 days a week. (I will admit, he is a very efficient surgeon and can finish cases in half the time it takes his partners to). He has 3 day weekends and 8 weeks vacation

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

Not likely. Expect to work at least 60+ hours a week (@ times 80+). Call depends on the surgical field, but expect to have a healthy amount especially at the beginning of your career.

In residency surgeons usually live at about the 75-85 hour per week range. Hours usually go up right after residency.

Originally Posted by JP2740

Don't put that ***** on a pedestal. Do what you want to do and run with it. She'll stick around because all women see are $$$.

Probably easier to say without a wife but to be honest man, that's ****ed up if you just end up running your life according to her.

Are you kidding with this? Good luck with that attitude. For your sake I hope the rude awakening out of the 1950's comes sooner than later - and before it ruins your career.

I certainly hope you are a troll and not serious with this misogynistic B.S. Yuck! It's healthy and considerate to take your partner's feelings and wishes into account when chosing a speciality or career.

Originally Posted by JP2740

Don't put that ***** on a pedestal. Do what you want to do and run with it. She'll stick around because all women see are $$$.

Probably easier to say without a wife but to be honest man, that's ****ed up if you just end up running your life according to her.

Originally Posted by cowme

if you don't want to work bad hours as a surgeon, move to an underserved community and start your own practice (or join one in desparate need). You can choose your own hours. My uncle works 2 hours from a major city out west as an orthopod. His clinic days are 7-noon 2 days a week. His OR days are 7-2, 2 days a week. (I will admit, he is a very efficient surgeon and can finish cases in half the time it takes his partners to). He has 3 day weekends and 8 weeks vacation

How long has he been in practice for? It sounds like a nice gig, but I'm sure that sort of lifestyle has a dramatic effect on his income. I'm guessing he'd fall around the lowest 30% of earners in ortho maybe?

Originally Posted by Guillemot

Surgery is like going off to war. Be prepared to forfeit your life.

This is generally more true for surgery than other fields, but medicine in general is like this.

Medical schools in general have done an exceptionally poor job recently in attracting individuals who are truly interested in medicine for medicine and not for the associated lifestyle.

Starfox and JP seem perfect for eachother...

Originally Posted by neusu

This is generally more true for surgery than other fields, but medicine in general is like this.

Medical schools in general have done an exceptionally poor job recently in attracting individuals who are truly interested in medicine for medicine and not for the associated lifestyle.

How can an interviewer/adcom possibly tell the difference between the applicant who is "truly" interested in medicine (whatever that means) and one who is looking for a good career? Everyone knows what they want to hear and what the application needs to look like, it's not a secret. It's like people expect adcoms to have some sort of tingly spidey-sense to tell who is really in it for the "right" reasons.

Originally Posted by KinasePro

How long has he been in practice for? It sounds like a nice gig, but I'm sure that sort of lifestyle has a dramatic effect on his income. I'm guessing he'd fall around the lowest 30% of earners in ortho maybe?

I don't know about dramatic effect. He has never made less than 250K working 40 hour, 4-5 day weeks.

medicine = a job

family = family

working any job for +80hr/week is a nasty prospect. even if a myopic surgeon is too blind to see it, his family still will.*

*this is assuming that said surgeon isn't a turd of a husband/dad to begin with. if so, perhaps it best that he works more instead of less.

Originally Posted by kdhmed

Starfox and JP seem perfect for eachother...

Why do you say this? I am just saying live your own life and I have no clue what the other guy said because I'm too lazy to decipher the multiple *s. Do you disagree with this?

Anyone feel that at times the people who complain about the lifestyle are just the ones trying to justify not putting in a ton of hours and dedicating their life to medicine... like we're all supposed to regardless of specialty?

My long-time gf brings it up sometimes, but I don't think it's that serious as long as our schedules work together. If I'm doing 80 hour work weeks, assuming I sleep around 7 hours a day, I still have another ~4 hours of free time. If I'm spending time with her doing what I'm doing, i.e. going to the gym or whatever, 4 hours a day doesn't seem that bad. If anything, surgery will be a blessing because not having to see her non-stop will prevent me from going crazy.

Only time I see it being a major life issue is once you have kids. I couldn't really imagine not being able to see my kids every day and spend time with them.

As far as the actual prospects, I feel that we're all going to get conflicting information. I shadowed 2 orthopedic surgeons and interned with a sports medicine physician among other shadowing in undergrad. All 3 loved what they did, and 2 of the 3 seemingly had great lives. Despite they schedule, they had plenty of time to be with their family and do things they wanted. One of the 2 actually has enough time to consistently train for marathon running/ironman events. The third was married also, but was the only one to seem stressed and was the only one who actually advised me to think twice about what I was getting into. He was also balding and not the best looker so maybe a bunch of factors play in to stress levels and how well one can handle the time commitment

Originally Posted by Bancrofti

Anyone feel that at times the people who complain about the lifestyle are just the ones trying to justify not putting in a ton of hours and dedicating their life to medicine... like we're all supposed to regardless of specialty?

Couldn't have put it better myself. For a lot of people getting into medical school is like that huge hurdle and getting to the top of the hill. They think that everything should be easy and just handed to them now. Then when the money and respect don't start raining from the sky they get mad and bitter, but that's just the taste of reality.

Originally Posted by Star Fox

Couldn't have put it better myself. For a lot of people getting into medical school is like that huge hurdle and getting to the top of the hill. They think that everything should be easy and just handed to them now. Then when the money and respect don't start raining from the sky they get mad and bitter, but that's just the taste of reality.

And then there's people who just want to live their lives outside the hospital/clinic. Most of the people who want reasonable hours are willing to take a significant pay cut to get them. Those that won't consciously and with full understanding accept the pay cut either do something like derm (if they can), or they whine about how underpaid they are for the rest of their lives.

Originally Posted by SchroedingrsCat

Everything I hear about surgery is work, work work. 80 hours per week minimum, always on call, etc. How feasible is it to get a surgery gig for 40-50 hrs/week and limitied call. I'm interested in surgery, but I'm also interested in the rest of my damn life.

If you're too lazy to work, then don't go into medicine.

I'm working as a lab manager and I work at around 50 hours with weekends. Last semester I took two classes (8 units) which was about 8-10 hours. Not saying this compares to the stress and challenges of a physician, but comparing time at the job/school, I had lots of free time to spare for the wifey/friends/family.

Originally Posted by kautionwirez

I'm working as a lab manager and I work at around 50 hours with weekends. Last semester I took two classes (8 units) which was about 8-10 hours. Not saying this compares to the stress and challenges of a physician, but comparing time at the job/school, I had lots of free time to spare for the wifey/friends/family.

That sounds doable. I think 50-60 hours is a pretty reasonable work week. It's the 70-80+ hour work weeks that scare me, because I know people who work those hours and complete exhaustion sets in pretty quickly unless you don't have any domestic responsibilities (i.e. a stay-at-home spouse or you live alone and hire a maid or something).

Originally Posted by Star Fox

Why do you say this? I am just saying live your own life and I have no clue what the other guy said because I'm too lazy to decipher the multiple *s. Do you disagree with this?

"Live your own life"....Once you get married, you're not just living your own life anymore. You're no longer an island, making your life decisions in a vacuum.

<-------

Originally Posted by immunopharmd

if you're too lazy to work, then don't go into medicine.

From reading this thread, many of you are going to be pouring your hard work and money into alimony payments from your many failed future marriages if you don't change your attitudes.

It's pretty myopic to believe that your profession is the most important or even the only dream one may have. Having a spouse, a stable home, and children are all dreams as well. Who says that they aren't at least as important as following your dream career? If you're of the mindset that "I'll work 100+ hours per week because I want to do, it's my dream, and screw everyone else, especially my nagging spouse" then do the world and your future kids a favor, and don't have them, please.

PS- It's not just anecdotal that some of the most misguided and angst-ridden children come not just from poor or abusive families, but also from families where their parents "work hard" to earn a lot of money, but fail miserably as parents.

Originally Posted by ImmunoPharmD

If you're too lazy to work, then don't go into medicine.

winner

Originally Posted by Cello

From reading this thread, many of you are going to be pouring your hard work and money into alimony payments from your many failed future marriages if you don't change your attitudes.

Pre-nups. "Are you marrying me for my money or are you marrying me for me?"

Originally Posted by Bancrofti

Anyone feel that at times the people who complain about the lifestyle are just the ones trying to justify not putting in a ton of hours and dedicating their life to medicine... like we're all supposed to regardless of specialty?

This quote is pretty awesome.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Pre-nups. "Are you marrying me for my money or are you marrying me for me?"

It's nearly impossible to know the stresses, pressures, and the resulting lifestyle of a profession which demands an 80+ hour workweek when it's just an idea, or a dream. You can't really blame a spouse for not understanding what 80+ hours entails until they actually experience it.

Anyway, are spouses just a commodity to you? Are they something to be tossed away or traded on a whim? Or, are they every bit as important an investment as your profession? Any kind of a pre-nup would probably be incomplete without a clause describing your love for your profession over the professed love of your future spouse. I mean, to be fair he/she should know that they are and will always be second best, right? If they're fine with that, then obviously there should be no problems in the future!

Nothing wrong with working in surgery, don't get me wrong, but to treat your significant other's feelings and attitudes with such contempt as many in here have done is ridiculously short-sighted, and certainly not conducive to a stable and healthy home suitable for children or a lasting marriage.

Originally Posted by Cello

It's nearly impossible to know the stresses, pressures, and the resulting lifestyle of a profession which demands an 80+ hour workweek when it's just an idea, or a dream. You can't really blame a spouse for not understanding what 80+ hours entails until they actually experience it.

Anyway, are spouses just a commodity to you? Are they something to be tossed away or traded on a whim? Or, are they every bit as important an investment as your profession? Any kind of a pre-nup would probably be incomplete without a clause describing your love for your profession over the professed love of your future spouse. I mean, to be fair he/she should know that they are and will always be second best, right? If they're fine with that, then obviously there should be no problems in the future!

Nothing wrong with working in surgery, don't get me wrong, but to treat your significant other's feelings and attitudes with such contempt as many in here have done is ridiculously short-sighted, and certainly not conducive to a stable and healthy home suitable for children or a lasting marriage.

yea thanks Dr. Phil.

Originally Posted by Cello

From reading this thread, many of you are going to be pouring your hard work and money into alimony payments from your many failed future marriages if you don't change your attitudes.

It's pretty myopic to believe that your profession is the most important or even the only dream one may have. Having a spouse, a stable home, and children are all dreams as well. Who says that they aren't at least as important as following your dream career? If you're of the mindset that "I'll work 100+ hours per week because I want to do, it's my dream, and screw everyone else, especially my nagging spouse" then do the world and your future kids a favor, and don't have them, please.

PS- It's not just anecdotal that some of the most misguided and angst-ridden children come not just from poor or abusive families, but also from families where their parents "work hard" to earn a lot of money, but fail miserably as parents.

winner. (see, I can arbitrarily declare a winner too. Isn't this fun? )

But seriously, it's not hard to see why so many physicians have failed marriages and broken home lives with attitudes like these running rampant. "Herp derp I'm a doctor and my career takes precedence over eating, sleeping, and raising functional children. If you're not like me, you shouldn't be in medicine." Thanks, but fortunately the 1950's are over.

Originally Posted by Star Fox

yea thanks Dr. Phil.

Yeah, what a joke! Feelings and the happiness of other people. Yuck!

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Pre-nups. "Are you marrying me for my money or are you marrying me for me?"

Tried and failed.

Originally Posted by Star Fox

yea thanks Dr. Phil.

I am not a walrus.

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

winner. (see, I can arbitrarily declare a winner too. Isn't this fun? )

But seriously, it's not hard to see why so many physicians have failed marriages and broken home lives with attitudes like these running rampant. "Herp derp I'm a doctor and my career takes precedence over eating, sleeping, and raising functional children. If you're not like me, you shouldn't be in medicine." Thanks, but fortunately the 1950's are over.

I agree, arrogance is extremely repulsive to me. There are many doctors and surgeons that I met that are cool people or at least pretended to be when they interacted with me. If you have the social skills of an alley cat then don't go into healthcare please. Go get that PhD. or something.

Originally Posted by kautionwirez

Tried and failed.

It seemed to work with me every time I mentioned it to a girlfriend that wanted to marry me. Although its funny to see their true color first reaction when I bring it up. If I detect anger then I know what their true long term motives are in being with me. Its actually a good tool to use to see psychologically what your significant other is in it for. And not to be stereotypical (most stereotypes are true nonetheless) but women are more frequent golddiggers than men so you have to be careful.