A veterinary and engineering degree

SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)

Anyone know if having these two degrees can give a different career pathway instead of just private practice? Can it be used for example, in a similar fashion as the biomedical engineering degree?

interesting...is that 2 degrees or a combined one?!? never heard of a combined vet/engineering degree?!?

I have a bachelors in biomedical engineering and will be starting vet school in a month. I hope to mix the two degrees by doing some clinical research. I'd love to get into designing prosthetic limbs for animals. I know there is a lot of that kind of research going on for horses, but I'm more of a small animal type person. They do have all those doggy wheelchair contraptions which also appeal to my engineering side! Anyways- I just wanted to say that I am trying to do exactly what you are talking about- hopefully put my engineering spin on vet med- and I think there are actually more engineer-vet people out there than you think. The sky's the limit with the kinds of things we can do between the two degrees...

I do highly recommend a degree in biomed engr. because I think it was very interesting, makes you come out as a better problem solver, and makes you a more unique candidate for vet school.

I actually saw a really interesting presentation this summer on biomechanics and physical therapy. So there is definitely research going on out there that would put your areas of expertise to use!!

I was a chemical engineering major and even just going into private practice, plan to use the knowledge I gained there. Other than private practice though, I think an engineering degree would really help a veterinarian in whatever field they're in to.

wow that is just so cool! vet is my first degree..so...i don't have any past knowledge to combine with!! i was planning to do physics before vet tho! but i got in so im here X) (its a bachelor degree in aussie)

Like RazorDoc, I've got a ChemE undergrad degree, and I'm starting vet school in the fall. You would be surprised how much engineering can help you. Not only do you learn a structured way of problem-solving (which is analogous to diagnosing and making a treatment plan), but the actual topics sometimes come back to haunt you. Who'd have thought that fluid mechanics would come back with a vengeance in the cardiovascular system?

In short, it can help whether you're going the research route or into practice.

Originally Posted by greenie53

I have a bachelors in biomedical engineering and will be starting vet school in a month. I hope to mix the two degrees by doing some clinical research. I'd love to get into designing prosthetic limbs for animals. I know there is a lot of that kind of research going on for horses, but I'm more of a small animal type person. They do have all those doggy wheelchair contraptions which also appeal to my engineering side! Anyways- I just wanted to say that I am trying to do exactly what you are talking about- hopefully put my engineering spin on vet med- and I think there are actually more engineer-vet people out there than you think. The sky's the limit with the kinds of things we can do between the two degrees...

I do highly recommend a degree in biomed engr. because I think it was very interesting, makes you come out as a better problem solver, and makes you a more unique candidate for vet school.

You might be interested in something like this:

http://www.columc.missouri.edu/

Thanks for the link, I followed it to an article regarding the new tube designed to repair cartilage function, which is pretty neat.

Originally Posted by ShelterGirl

Like RazorDoc, I've got a ChemE undergrad degree, and I'm starting vet school in the fall. You would be surprised how much engineering can help you. Not only do you learn a structured way of problem-solving (which is analogous to diagnosing and making a treatment plan), but the actual topics sometimes come back to haunt you. Who'd have thought that fluid mechanics would come back with a vengeance in the cardiovascular system?

In short, it can help whether you're going the research route or into practice.

or say, physiological feedback mechanisms a la Process Control! woohoo! And non-equilibrium mass transfer as well. Man, do I NOT miss that stuff.

Both my undergrad and grad degrees are in biomedical engineering. I worked at a medical device company and a biopharm company (as well as in academic biomechanical positions) before starting vet school and it is definitely very advantageous for one to have both a background in engineering and a DVM degree if you wish to pursue any of those avenues. Lots and lots of opportunities to work in all sorts of pre-clinical research areas. I worked with a lot of vets who wished they had a stronger engineering background and vice versa. And if you can get yourself into one of the larger companies out there, starting salary right out of vet school isn't all too shabby!!!

I stumbled on this thread while looking for information about opportunities for vets with engineering degrees. I am a mechanical engineer & have been working in aerospace industry for the past 7 years. I recently started considering applying to a veterinary program. I'd love to know if any of the original posters here can comment on whether you have found great opportunities to use your dual degrees in conjunction for prosthetics, orthopedics or something else?

Thanks in advance for any replies!

Well, I'm not out of school for another year but I definitely LOVED orthopedics and "got" it pretty quickly.
Engineering also helped me with medicine classes because problem-solving is problem-solving, whether it's technical or medical. Some people struggled with the transition from memorize-and-regurgitate mode (1st and 2nd year) to applied problem-solving (3rd year).

ShelterGirl,

Thanks for the reply. I can definitely see how it would be useful for the critical thinking and innovative problem solving skills that engineering school develops.

A related question - As I have been browsing the pre-veterinary forum I have seen a lot of discussion about what qualifications it takes to get accepted, particularly in terms of the number of veterinary experience hours one should have. I know OSU requires a minimum of 80 hours which seems quite achieveable. I have seen several posts from people who have 300-800 hours and are asking if that is really enough. Of course as an engineer in aerospace, it seems like a really high bar to rack up that many hours without becoming a vet tech. I have quite a bit of general small animal and equine experience since I grew up on a farm, but I was wondering if this was found to be an obstacle for other engineers pursuing veterinary degrees. Does having other types of experience offset this?

Originally Posted by Mohandis

A related question - As I have been browsing the pre-veterinary forum I have seen a lot of discussion about what qualifications it takes to get accepted, particularly in terms of the number of veterinary experience hours one should have. I know OSU requires a minimum of 80 hours which seems quite achieveable. I have seen several posts from people who have 300-800 hours and are asking if that is really enough. Of course as an engineer in aerospace, it seems like a really high bar to rack up that many hours without becoming a vet tech.

There really isn't any way around getting a good amount of veterinary experience before you apply (if you want to be successful, that is)--and to be honest, it is a really bad idea to consider this field without accumulating lots of time with veterinarians. Things are a LOT different on the inside than the outside. Your aerospace engineering degree doesn't allow you to opt out of these requirements.

I'd encourage you to search for threads about job shadowing and volunteering in the pre-vet forum to get an idea of how to fulfill these requirements without "becoming a vet tech"--you definitely don't need a tech license to fulfill the requirement.

ETA: You can certainly use your general SA and equine/farm experience as part of the "animal experience" portion of your application. However, this is separate from the "veterinary experience" portion.

I didn't mean to imply that I was planning to do only the minimum. I've only been seriously looking into this for about a week now, so I'm just trying to get a sense of what I need to plan on doing. If it is 800 hours I probably need to push out my estimate of how long before I could reasonably expect to apply. I was just surprised to see a disparity of 10X the requirement and what applicants are actually expected to have. Given that I need to complete the chem & bio prereqs I'm already looking at about 2 years before I'll qualify as an applicant. I'll need to keep my engineering job in order to be able to afford the tuition, so any veterinary experience is going to have to be volunteer time.

Also, thank you for the links about the job market in the other thread. They were very interesting and I will definitely need to do more research into the financials.

FYI, 80 hours of experience will hardly hardly hardly ever get you in to vet school. Many people are applying with literally thousands of hours.

Since you have two years' worth of pre-reqs, that should be plenty of time to accumulate hours.

You can search under "non-trad" to see how others have balanced full-time jobs, pre-req coursework and volunteer hours (it's actually a pretty common situation to be in).

Mohandis,

You need to avoid veterinary school because your engineering expertise will be wasted if your interest is in biomedical engineering. Most biomedical devices are developed for humans and there is not the expertise in veterinary schools in engineering or in human uses for the devices that would add anything to an engineering degree. Plus the shallow veterinary education with courses in production animal medicine and pharmacology really have little relevance to developing devices that really only humans will ever use on a large scale. It would be better to get into a graduate program at a medical school with a strong biomedical engineering research interest like Bowman Grey Medical School in Winston Salem,NC for example. Also very little funding would be coming to any veterinary school to develop any biomedical devices meant for a human market. Most devices used in animals except for hip joints are usually recycled human devices ie pacemakers in dogs for example. Plus the cost of procedures like these in animals make them only available to very few.

You might want to consider a career as an orthotist/prosthetist as they are the one who build and fit the artificial limbs etc. It would give you experience in working with real world users of the devices which would enhance the engineering expertise. Plus orthotist/prosthetists make a very good living compared to veterinarians who depend on how much money owners are willing to spend on one animal.

Joseph

At my school the minimum was 500 hours; I think that is more typical than 80 hours.

Engineering is kind of a universally useful science - the critical thinking skills it builds in you will help you in whatever else you do, including being a veterinarian.

My undergrad degree is in biological engineering (FABE from Ohio State). When it came time to apply to residency programs after vet school, I was accepted to MIT's comparative medicine postdoc program - lab animal residency training AND earning a PhD in biological engineering at MIT. It is an awesome program. Plus, the fact that I'm coming in with such a strong biology background from veterinary school means that I really understand the physiology and the different animal models.

They absolutely go well together, especially if you plan on a career in research using animal models. And, even better, my postdoc program pays my grad school tuition ($20K/semester at MIT). If I could do it over again, I wouldn't change a thing.

Just adding my two cents...

I graduated with a ChemE degree and am starting this fall. I didn't start pursuing the vet-med route until my junior year. It was a struggle, but I finished my degree on time and only had to take one extra semester of pre-reqs. As for hours, I shadowed like crazy at every hospital that would allow me to (a surprisingly low number - 3) until one of them hired me. I applied with barely 500 hrs of veterinary experience and was accepted.

Though my vet exp hours were low, my research exp really helped me shine. I had done three semesters of research in a nanoparticle bioimaging lab, a summer in a protein engineering lab and another summer doing fuel cell research (not medicine related, but still, it was research!). I think that if you are going to have a low amount of veterinary exp hours, you may find that other avenues that you've explored as an engineer may help demonstrate your ability to study veterinary medicine and your well-roundedness as an applicant. It will certainly help you stand out!

Originally Posted by JosephKnechtDVM

Mohandis,

You need to avoid veterinary school because your engineering expertise will be wasted if your interest is in biomedical engineering. Most biomedical devices are developed for humans and there is not the expertise in veterinary schools in engineering or in human uses for the devices that would add anything to an engineering degree. Plus the shallow veterinary education with courses in production animal medicine and pharmacology really have little relevance to developing devices that really only humans will ever use on a large scale. It would be better to get into a graduate program at a medical school with a strong biomedical engineering research interest like Bowman Grey Medical School in Winston Salem,NC for example. Also very little funding would be coming to any veterinary school to develop any biomedical devices meant for a human market. Most devices used in animals except for hip joints are usually recycled human devices ie pacemakers in dogs for example. Plus the cost of procedures like these in animals make them only available to very few.

You might want to consider a career as an orthotist/prosthetist as they are the one who build and fit the artificial limbs etc. It would give you experience in working with real world users of the devices which would enhance the engineering expertise. Plus orthotist/prosthetists make a very good living compared to veterinarians who depend on how much money owners are willing to spend on one animal.

Joseph

"Also very little funding would be coming to any veterinary school to develop any biomedical devices meant for a human market."

I know a school where almost 100% of the orthopaedic research for human medicine is done in the veterinary school. This includes but is not limited to design of new devices for human medicine, design of theoretical devices, design of procedures for human medicine, highly scientific research into osteoarthritis, testing of implants from all the major orthopaedic companies, evaluation of new implants companies have developed but not released, design of new orthopaedic testing protocols, new implantation device testing both in vivo and ex vivo, testing and design of scaffolds made of bioresorbable materials, and the list goes on. The research laboratories were recently taken over a company for approximately 50 million, and the funding that comes in for individual projects is so many pages it would waste a lot of your time trying to sort through it all. Animals are basically the gateway to improvements in human medicine, so why would very little money come into the veterinary school? Maybe its just this school, but its one of the biggest research producers in the entire university, receives a lot of funding, and has some research professors in there making more than staff neurosurgeons. If you wanted to I am sure you could obtain an engineering degree at the graduate level while doing research in veterinary, or a more veterinary titled degree if that happened to suit you better.

My undergrad degree was in Computer Engineering, I then worked in software for 5 years, and now I'm in my first year of vet school.

I had less veterinary experience than the average person on these boards who seem to get accepted (I think I had around 600 hours when I applied), but I think real world work experience can sometimes make up for not having 1000s of hours of vet experience. I worked while taking 1/2 of my pre-reqs, and some of the vet schools definitely appreciated that. You do need enough experience to show that you understand the field, but not everyone has 1000s. Just do your research on which schools you apply to and what they value.

On the engineering subject, I was pretty excited in the first week at RVC when we had some lecturers from our Structure and Motion Lab on campus. The lab seems to be made of half engineers, half vets, working together on some pretty cool projects. I recommend you take a look around the website for some ideas.
Granted a lot of the people are either vets or engineers, but it shows a good collaboration between the worlds. And the people I've talked to there were very excited about a vet student with an engineering background. http://www.rvc.ac.uk/sml/

I have an MSME from a top tier school, but I hated working in industry so here I am. I still plan on hopefully putting it to use, although it makes me sad that I'm getting a bit rusty due to time constraints. I was hoping to do some research type things this summer, but it's just not working out with my personal medical problems I need get finished before 4th year. The engineering background makes me really good at understanding anything involving forces, but it also makes me sperg out when I can tell a professor is dumbing down equations for us that would be easier if they were just given as differential equations (I'm looking at you, pharm!). My eventual goal is to do some sort of engineering type research at a school involving medical device innovation while also working clinical practice....I'm not sure it will work out, but at least the pathway has been a good time!

Why not just go for a PhD in biomedical engineering, materials science or something similar instead of wasting time in veterinary school learning a little about a lot of things that have minimal relevance to research and development of medical devices? I have yet to see many jobs that advertise for just a DVM to engage in medical device development. A veterinary education will not help you much in getting into these fields. versus specializing in these fields. I think its called the division of labor.

Joe

Originally Posted by JosephKnechtDVM

Why not just go for a PhD in biomedical engineering, materials science or something similar instead of wasting time in veterinary school learning a little about a lot of things that have minimal relevance to research and development of medical devices? I have yet to see many jobs that advertise for just a DVM to engage in medical device development. A veterinary education will not help you much in getting into these fields. versus specializing in these fields. I think its called the division of labor.

Joe

I worked for a good long while in biomedical device design and manufacturing. It was boring and frustrating. Boring because FDA red tape is the thing nightmares are made of. Frustrating because it's really really hard to design for something when one doesn't have any clue of the needs of the doctor or the worth of the procedure. I'm also a good enough engineer to know that I'm not a great engineer, merely a competent one. Should I have done the MSME? I don't regret it. At the time, it was the right decision as a BE is pretty worthless on its own and the MSME has opened up a ton of doors for me. I also learned a lot about robotics, I can fix the ultrasound machine whenever it goes on the fritz, and I have really cool connections all over the globe.

A lot of my schooling is in computer modeling and signal processing, which is cutting edge stuff in a few areas of equine research and the source of a lot of research dollars and products that have started being commercialized. I think that stuff is fascinating, and I'm really hoping to get in on it.

I do feel that I thought this through and that this isn't a waste of my savings, at least as far as my sanity goes.I do think that my experiences have a chance to make contributions to veterinary medicine and hopefully have a chance to crossover. I didn't do human medicine because I like this more. I'm selfishly single, no (human) kids, and reasonably financially stable for the short term due to my previous work. I hit a point where I realized I'd rather do something that I enjoyed over something that makes me money while I'm miserable. I really don't care about the pittance salary, as long as I have enough to pay rent, eat, and squirrel away a bit for a rainy day, I'll be fine. I've never lived rich and I don't plan on starting now. I'm (mostly) enjoying what I'm working on for the first time in years and that, for me, is worth it (except for maybe repro....and that last path test - I want that hour of my life and my lost dignity back). If I could do it over again, I don't know that I'd change my choices. They've made me the person that I am today, and I'm pretty happy with who I am.

Originally Posted by quantized

If I could do it over again, I don't know that I'd change my choices. They've made me the person that I am today, and I'm pretty happy with who I am.

As well you should be. I don't know why Dr. Knecht feels so qualified to speak on the matter of biomedical engineering as it related to veterinary medicine.

Why are veterinary academicians qualified to tell incoming students that a DVM degree is a good adjunct to pursuing so many different non veterinary fields based on the value of an overly broad and shallow educational model?

Also my father was an engineer who rose to managing and operating very large projects which employed technicians and engineers from many different fields in producing a very complex product. The division of labor/specialization of knowledge from economics 101 still holds in veterinary medicine as every one of those veterinary academicians is highly educated and trained post DVM in order to become an expert in a small field. Most of them lack any experience outside their own narrow field.

Originally Posted by JosephKnechtDVM

Why are veterinary academicians qualified to tell incoming students that a DVM degree is a good adjunct to pursuing so many different non veterinary fields based on the value of an overly broad and shallow educational model?

Why are you bringing the veterinary academicians straw man into the picture? Nobody mentioned veterinary academicians pushing them into any particular path in this thread as far as I can tell. It seems like mostly people who have actually gone through the same path giving advice. Which I'd personally believe over yours, because this:

Also my father was an engineer who rose to managing and operating very large projects which employed technicians and engineers from many different fields in producing a very complex product.

is a weaker vault of experience to draw from than those people who've actually done it.

The division of labor/specialization of knowledge from economics 101 still holds in veterinary medicine as every one of those veterinary academicians is highly educated and trained post DVM in order to become an expert in a small field. Most of them lack any experience outside their own narrow field.

We shouldn't really be debating anything about veterinary academicians here, but as far as I can tell, fields overlap pretty drastically and this is quite the oversimplification.

If you do not understand how the division of labor and specialization functions in a modern knowledge economy then I really cannot counter what you believe and have been taught in veterinary school because they do not either. But it is economically and epistemologically sound reasoning. I do not see DVMs being hired for many jobs outside of clinical practice without the additional residency and/or PhDs. You can check the help wanted ads of NATURE and SCIENCE to see that clearly enough. Just using good old economics and evidence from the world of work.
.

Originally Posted by JosephKnechtDVM

Why are veterinary academicians qualified to tell incoming students that a DVM degree is a good adjunct to pursuing so many different non veterinary fields based on the value of an overly broad and shallow educational model?

Couldn't agree more. DVM is a degree for practitioners. Non-veterinary fields are better entered through other more focussed courses.

Originally Posted by delusion

Anyone know if having these two degrees can give a different career pathway instead of just private practice? Can it be used for example, in a similar fashion as the biomedical engineering degree?

I'm a 3rd year vet in Dublin with a BS in Electrical Engineering and an MS in Biomedical Engineering. I decided instead of doing a PhD to go to vet school. There are loads of different vet related career paths that being an engineer is helpful for!! Within basic veterinary medicine, being an engineer, and learning the way we do/did, is a huge asset in terms of problems solving skills etc. which is the very basis of good vet medicine. I know a large number of very successful veterinary surgeons who are also engineers. The spacial relationships and fine motor skills that go with mechanical engineering etc. come in really handy there. Beyond that if you don't want to be a basic private practitioner (who doesn't specialize in surgery, orthopedics, etc.) there is a high number of opportunities within in research and pharmacology fields. There is actually a shortage of needed vets in research fields at the moment that understand the workings of the model animal systems being used to test new medical devices and drugs etc. And you can make very good money as a vet in those fields.

I'd personally like to be the next bionic vet, Noel Fitzpatrick http://www.fitzpatrickreferrals.co.uk/ he has a show on in the UK on BBC (called The Bionic Vet obviously ... check it out! He works with a lot of human doctors and other vets to benefit both people and animals which would be the main reason I chose to focus on the veterinary and engineering research. Everything has to be tested in animals first, which means you are often working at the most cutting edge level of research. My goal would be to ensure that animals are benefiting just as much as human.

If you wanted to work strictly in academia then perhaps you might eventually need a PhD or post-doc but there are plenty of opportunities in industry that only require a vet degree with your engineering background (think NIH, Pfizer, Novartis etc.)

Anyways that's just my two cents!
M.A.

I graduated with a B.S. in Structural Engineering and worked in the aerospace industry for awhile before deciding to go to vet school. I start in the fall, so I don't know exactly what it will entail, but from what I can see and have found, a bachelor's degree in engineering without having worked for an extensive period of time in the industry or considering further education, is useful, but most likely won't make a huge difference in your career. I believe your ability to apply your engineering background to your veterinary career will ultimately depend on your competency and experience as an engineer before entering vet school.

I've realized that as a vet with an engineering background you can definitely collaborate with design teams on device design or prosthetic design, but in the end, the true engineering will come from the true engineers. If design/analysis is one's calling, it would suit one better to specialize in an engineering field. Ultimately, someone who is more studied in this field will be more qualified. My bachelor's degree and year and a half of experience will hardly qualify me to head up a design team for a medical device, but it will allow me to be a vet who understands how a device is being designed and be more likely to be involved in such projects (as a vet). I somewhat agree with Dr. Knecht, in the sense that a DVM will do little to further an engineering degree. If you aren't already an accomplished, extremely knowledgeable engineer, you certainly won't be after veterinary school.

I know I've ranted a bit here, but it is something that I too considered for a long time. Ultimately, I am glad that I have a degree in engineering; It definitely doesn't hurt. If I get a chance to work on a veterinary related engineering project one day, I'll be excited, but I'm not going into the profession assuming that I will. You might consider it with that mindset.

My main point has always been that there is no way veterinary school prepares anyone for multiple career opportunities as currently designed. It attempts to cover too many areas and as a result no one develops the needed depth of expertise in any particular area to become truly effective. Just as any design in engineering must be optimized and compromised to meet the technological specifications of the physical need, veterinary education needs to be optimized through a number of educational streams that will allow the student to be achieving and successful in their chosen area of the veterinary profession.

Originally Posted by JosephKnechtDVM

My main point has always been that there is no way veterinary school prepares anyone for multiple career opportunities as currently designed. It attempts to cover too many areas and as a result no one develops the needed depth of expertise in any particular area to become truly effective. Just as any design in engineering must be optimized and compromised to meet the technological specifications of the physical need, veterinary education needs to be optimized through a number of educational streams that will allow the student to be achieving and successful in their chosen area of the veterinary profession.

And I could do with a lot fewer lectures about horses. Seriously.

I'm a qualified vet, another country so was an undergraduate degree. I am thinking of changing career to civil engineering due to job prospects and societal needs in the sustainable development arena. I don't think I will use much if any of my vet knowledge.