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hello everyone,

I've just been notified that my offer has been rescinded (due to calling the office many times on one day near the beginning of this month). I'm wondering if there's any similar cases in the past. I really don't know what to do now....it's too late for me to get into any other school, and the schools that waitlisted me probably will reject me after seeing 'offer rescinded' on aadsas. What are my options? i am really devastated. Should i try talking to the dean...if I can even reach him? I'm not sure if this is a decision made by the dean or the admission committee only. i know what i did was wrong but I do feel that I should be at least given a chance to explain or ........i don't know, i feel this is so harsh my mind is blank right now. suggestions are welcome. thanks.

Originally Posted by IAmSorry

hello everyone,

I've just been notified that my offer has been rescinded (due to calling the office many times on one day near the beginning of this month). I'm wondering if there's any similar cases in the past. I really don't know what to do now....it's too late for me to get into any other school, and the schools that waitlisted me probably will reject me after seeing 'offer rescinded' on aadsas. What are my options? i am really devastated. Should i try talking to the dean...if I can even reach him? I'm not sure if this is a decision made by the dean or the admission committee only. i know what i did was wrong but I do feel that I should be at least given a chance to explain or ........i don't know, i feel this is so harsh my mind is blank right now. suggestions are welcome. thanks.

why are you trolling so hard?

i am not trolling. i know this may sound unbelievable and i wish to fool myself into thinking this never happened. however, the worst has came and i'm at a loss. im just wondering if anyone knows any information that may be helpful to me.

Drive there and talk to whoever...

You should call the dean a bunch until he lets you back in.

Originally Posted by IAmSorry

i am not trolling. i know this may sound unbelievable and i wish to fool myself into thinking this never happened. however, the worst has came and i'm at a loss. im just wondering if anyone knows any information that may be helpful to me.

well, if you're really not trolling..then i am very sorry for what happened. i would try to contact an admissions rep or something

i dont think i can talk to the admission rep. they're the ones who made the decision....i'm not sure if i can talk to the dean but it's my only shot left. my mom suggested that we fly there to talk to the school in person.

this occured at the beginning of april. if i was notified before apr 15 then perhaps there's a chance to contact the school that i rejected on apr1 (multiple offers). but now, it's all too late. thx for ur msgs. i'm really not sure what to do.

i didn't contact the school unless being contacted first. i was very careful. i also apologized for my behavior in one of my reply emails....i really tried everything with the admission person. i got this. i dont know how a school system works and whether or not if there's anyone else i can talk to.

i know what i did was wrong, but...i just didn't expect this to happen. not after so long. i thought since it's been 20 days or so, maybe this wasn't really gonna happen. but it did. words cannot really describe how i feel right now. i just wish i could find a solution or at least tell the decision maker my side of the story (was never given a chance to explain, to appeal, or anything).

That really sucks
I would tell you to not think about anything for the rest of the day, and face it tomorrow and brainstorm - but this is probably just too devastating...
I'm really sorry.
First? I guess form an apology letter, be mature in it, say you are very sorry and state your case. Be honest. Send it to both the dean and the admissions committee. Before you send it, have someone reliable read it over so you know it sounds professional.
Or make an appointment as suggested above, and be prepared when you get to the appointment. Have your case, your apologies (if necessary) ready.
Show them you care, show them you're sorry (if necessary), show them how strong you are
Good luck...

Originally Posted by premolar9

That really sucks
I would tell you to not think about anything for the rest of the day, and face it tomorrow and brainstorm - but this is probably just too devastating...
I'm really sorry.
First? I guess form an apology letter, be mature in it, say you are very sorry and state your case. Be honest. Send it to both the dean and the admissions committee. Before you send it, have someone reliable read it over so you know it sounds professional.
Or make an appointment as suggested above, and be prepared when you get to the appointment. Have your case, your apologies (if necessary) ready.
Show them you care, show them you're sorry (if necessary), show them how strong you are
Good luck...

i will try...do u think they already gave my spot to someone else? if so, then it's prob too late to do anything.
my plan is to call the dean's office tmr morning, try to make an appointment (or should i request a phone appointment first). then fly there on monday to talk...i do have all the email records, one apology letter, and i do feel sorry. do u think this is a good plan?

I don't know if they gave your spot to someone else...don't think about that. Think about what you can do. If I were you, I would request a face-to-face appointment. Communicating is done best face to face. Yes, I do think it is a good plan...don't take this the wrong away, I'm not assuming, I'm just going to give advice:
-don't whine, don't show your desperation
-be professional, be mature, apologize, ask what you can do to get your spot back other than apply again next year
- do mention that this school is your first choice as you turned down an offer from another school (I read above) to go here
- maintain composure
-expect questions and prepare answers

Something made them change their mind and you have to show them they were wrong. Show them how calmly you can handle such a devastating situation...

Originally Posted by premolar9

I don't know if they gave your spot to someone else...don't think about that. Think about what you can do. If I were you, I would request a face-to-face appointment. Communicating is done best face to face. Yes, I do think it is a good plan...don't take this the wrong away, I'm not assuming, I'm just going to give advice:
-don't whine, don't show your desperation
-be professional, be mature, apologize, ask what you can do to get your spot back other than apply again next year
- do mention that this school is your first choice as you turned down an offer from another school (I read above) to go here
- maintain composure
-expect questions and prepare answers

Something made them change their mind and you have to show them they were wrong. Show them how calmly you can handle such a devastating situation...

thanks for ur advice. if i call tonight and the dean's assistant answers, how should i make an appointment? i understand the dean's really busy and honestly, i'm not sure how to answer if she asked 'what is this appointment for'. should i just say this is urgent or should i tell her a summary of my case?

should i make a phone appointment instead or insist on visiting physically?

i'm not going to whine. i do feel devastated, but i will keep my composure.

Originally Posted by premolar9

That really sucks
I would tell you to not think about anything for the rest of the day, and face it tomorrow and brainstorm - but this is probably just too devastating...
I'm really sorry.
First? I guess form an apology letter, be mature in it, say you are very sorry and state your case. Be honest. Send it to both the dean and the admissions committee. Before you send it, have someone reliable read it over so you know it sounds professional.
Or make an appointment as suggested above, and be prepared when you get to the appointment. Have your case, your apologies (if necessary) ready.
Show them you care, show them you're sorry (if necessary), show them how strong you are
Good luck...

I'm terribly sorry to hear that. I would follow premolar9 's suggestion.

calling tmrw to dean's office is a good idea but I don't think you will be able to explain everything in such a short time. Not to mention, you are emotionally compromised to do it very well. It would come off as a whiny complaint.

I would start drafting that letter ASAP now (if you have to, pull an all nighter) and mail it thru Fedex or UPS . make sure the letter has to be received by the dean (or at least it gets to the dean's desk).

In the letter, say something like I'd like to contact you in Monday or something like that. And then, call the dean directly on Monday. Ask him if he received your letter (I would assume that the dean would read your letter and summon the committee meeting to talk further). Chi chat with him and then if you can make an appointment to see him in person and explain the situation in front of the admission committee.

If you get yes, fly to the school and present your case. Leave your parents out of it. It would make you look dependent and unprofessional.

just in case, be emotionally ready. Chances are that the school most likely gave your spot away and I'm not sure how much the dean is willing to reverse the committee decision. (since they all know each other, it will be hard for the dean to do that. its like a slap on the committee's face). Also, I'm sure the committee gathered, talked about whether to rescind the offer

best luck to you. I hope it really works out for you. If it doesn't, dont get so discouraged. get ready for the upcoming cycle ASAP. You dont have time to grieve.

** I think that the key is not to ask the dean for the second chance until you see him in person.

Okay I have no problem trying to help you out, but I am really not a professional..as in I don't have all the answers :/

Um..hmmm. I would state my case, but briefly. Say something like, I was accepted, and my offer was currently rescinded, and I would like to state my case or I would like to know why this happened. Insist on visiting physically. Humans are social creatures - you will get a much better result in person than over the phone. You may not get a result, but you will have a better chance (I feel, I don't have any statistics backing me up) in person.
Practice keeping your composure. You will need it...
Here's what I would do. I would imagine the worst case scenario (for me it would be them telling me I wasn't ever going to be granted admission, not even if I applied again next year). Then work yourself through the emotions, and devise a plan. What will I do if this happens? And then, because you have a plan for the worst case scenario, you will be able to keep your composure. Just relax, be pleasant, don't accuse.

They may have given your spot to someone else. Say that's okay, can you give me a spot for next year?

They want you to reapply. Say that's okay, what would you like me to improve on?

They don't want to let you in. Say that's okay, can you remove the 'offer rescinded' notification and change it to rejected? So another school will let me in?

Be accommodating, because you will see these people if(when) they let you back into dental school. It will be better for you if you are on good terms with them.

I agree with TheClutch. Use his/her plan

Originally Posted by IAmSorry

thanks for ur advice. if i call tonight and the dean's assistant answers, how should i make an appointment? i understand the dean's really busy and honestly, i'm not sure how to answer if she asked 'what is this appointment for'. should i just say this is urgent or should i tell her a summary of my case?

should i make a phone appointment instead or insist on visiting physically?

i'm not going to whine. i do feel devastated, but i will keep my composure.

That's why sending a letter is a better option in my opinion. Unless the receptionist connects you to the dean. I don't think the dean would wanna return your call much.

Originally Posted by premolar9

Okay I have no problem trying to help you out, but I am really not a professional..as in I don't have all the answers :/

Um..hmmm. I would state my case, but briefly. Say something like, I was accepted, and my offer was currently rescinded, and I would like to state my case or I would like to know why this happened. Insist on visiting physically. Humans are social creatures - you will get a much better result in person than over the phone. You may not get a result, but you will have a better chance (I feel, I don't have any statistics backing me up) in person.
Practice keeping your composure. You will need it...
Here's what I would do. I would imagine the worst case scenario (for me it would be them telling me I wasn't ever going to be granted admission, not even if I applied again next year). Then work yourself through the emotions, and devise a plan. What will I do if this happens? And then, because you have a plan for the worst case scenario, you will be able to keep your composure. Just relax, be pleasant, don't accuse.

They may have given your spot to someone else. Say that's okay, can you give me a spot for next year?

They want you to reapply. Say that's okay, what would you like me to improve on?

They don't want to let you in. Say that's okay, can you remove the 'offer rescinded' notification and change it to rejected? So another school will let me in?

Be accommodating, because you will see these people if(when) they let you back into dental school. It will be better for you if you are on good terms with them.

I would follow that! Good luck to you

Originally Posted by TheClutch

That's why sending a letter is a better option in my opinion. Unless the receptionist connects you to the dean. I don't think the dean would wanna return your call much.

thx, i'd like to talk to the receptionist to make an appointment for a meeting on monday.

i just thope i could get a chance to meet him on monday. if he is not available to talk, then what should i do?

call cnn

Originally Posted by IAmSorry

thx, i'd like to talk to the receptionist to make an appointment for a meeting on monday.

i just thope i could get a chance to meet him on monday. if he is not available to talk, then what should i do?

That's why I would send the letter by tomorrow. Call on Monday. Be at the school and talk in person (after Monday. ONLY if the dean allows you)
But ultimately it is up to you and there is no right answer in this situ

thx...ill try my best.
at the same time, i also wish to understand their thought process. even now, i still don't understand why my actions would result in my offer rescinded, and also why the notification came so late (after Apr 15). perhaps my actions were really unforgiveable. i wish to understand the situation better, and perhaps see from their perspective.

Originally Posted by IAmSorry

thx...ill try my best.
at the same time, i also wish to understand their thought process. even now, i still don't understand why my actions would result in my offer rescinded, and also why the notification came so late (after Apr 15). perhaps my actions were really unforgiveable. i wish to understand the situation better, and perhaps see from their perspective.

Mention that last part. Show them you want to learn from your mistakes.
good luck!

The following are my opinions. Please ignore, alter, or flame my suggestions as you please.

Definitely make your appointment via letter or e-mail. Calling could seem like you haven't learned anything about patience or respect. Have someone spell check and grammar check your work, you're upset and mistakes are easily made.

You need to show the dean you are extremely professional, entirely respectful, and not the least bit rude. You want him to have to second guess his ADCOMS decision to revoke your admission based on your behavior. Show him don't tell him.

what can you have possibly done to get rescinded? plenty of people call the school many times to check on their status? maybe you can explain to us so prospective student can know not to do that

Originally Posted by wschang812

what can you have possibly done to get rescinded? plenty of people call the school many times to check on their status? maybe you can explain to us so prospective student can know not to do that

u can see my previous post thats made for the purpose of warning prospective students.

i have another question.

I feel that usually, for things like this, both sides would be allowed to "talk" and then a decision is made based on all the information together. in my case, i was told to not talk to anyone at the school or else my offer would be rescinded immedately. throughout the process, i was never allowed to talk or explain.
i do believe what i did was wrong, but i thought a student would at least be allowed to tell their side of the story before a final decision is made. however, i really don't know how this works and i might be ignorant to think i would be allowed to explain my situation to the committee. i dont know if a student in my situation has this right. do i?

Can you get your deposit back at least?

Rescinding your offer because you annoyed a dean is BS in my opinion. Is there more to the story? Did you bitch the dean out when you did talk to him? I can't imagine anyone in the admissions committee thinking this is fair. You're an immature 21/22 year old, neurotic, stressed out, college kid. They should chill out. Yeah, you should be professional, but this whole process is stressful because it has a large impact on the rest of our lives. You work your ass off to invest your future, so understandably you're stressed, and they're just going to rescind your offer like that because you annoyed a dean. Seriously, WTH. Also, is what they did legal?

But seriously, is there something else you're not telling us? I'm sure some of the faculty still remember how stressful it is with interviewing, matching, etc. I would like to think that they would be more understanding.

I work in corporate America and have known people who've gotten fired, laid off, etc. One thing I've noticed is that, if a company wants to get rid of someone, they often use something small as an excuse to do it. I'm wondering if there's more to this story.

I feel really really bad for you. One neurotic day 20 days ago has brought you this. It's a learning experience I guess. Plan for the worst, and brush that dirt off and apply again if you need to. Try not to think about it. You've gotten in this year, you can do it again.

Seemingly small events like this can have huuuuuuuge life changing implications. So remember kids, don't drink and drive, text while driving, use protection, treat everyone with respect, choose your battles wisely, wear a seal belt, and don't get into bar fights (especially with someone who has nothing to lose).

Oh and if you're on a first date and this topic comes up, don't tell him/her you called 20 times because that's a red flag for crazy. Make something up and say you called the dean and said "I'm the new dean now, so you're going to need to clean out your office buddy" Or that you told him that you took the DAT twice and got 15s both times so you technically got a 30 and should be treated as such.









I know this isn't the time for jokes, but you'll talk about this while sitting in the office of your practice and will laugh about it. Chin up.

You should out the school and the dean. You had a reason to be trying to reach them so desperately, and they were neglecting you. Now they've taken your deposit, rescinded your offer for an absurd reason, and left you with nothing. Call them out and make them pay.

I'm just kidding. I think I would write a letter and only try to see the dean if it was easily doable (within driving distance, for instance); it seems ridiculous to me that you would have to go to all of this effort just to apologise for doing something that wasn't really wrong in the first place. If they don't make it easy for you to plead your case or speak your mind, then they're being equally unprofessional by abusing their power and not being receptive to the valid thoughts of an applicant (ie. the people who ostensibly give them money and pay their salaries). Your behaviour was unprofessional, PERHAPS, but you're just an applicant; you weren't even in the school yet. It's preposterous.

In all honesty I just want to know the name of the school and dean so I can hate them forever on your behalf, because you seem to be giving them too much credit, IMO.

this is the whole story, tho of course as the story teller i'm biased, but i try to be objective. there's no reason for me to hide anything here.
i find it very shocking too, and i'v been having a hard time accepting this outcome. i'll try to call the dean later, and ill let u guys know how it goes.
my biggest concern was who was really involved in the "professionalism review" and whether i should be allowed to give in my input as well. i feel the process might be biased because i know so little about it and was not allowed to talk. to say i'm not heartbroken by my dream school would be lying. but i'll keep my composure.

I am sorry if you are truly in this position, but I think you need to take a "Breather" and "calm-down". From reading your past posts, you are very ansy, anxious, an obsessive over this situation, and its obviously natural. Before you do anything, you need to be level-headed and attempt to keep your emotions under control. In fact, your anxiety is what caused this problem in the first place.

Originally Posted by Barking Lamb

The following are my opinions. Please ignore, alter, or flame my suggestions as you please.

Definitely make your appointment via letter or e-mail. Calling could seem like you haven't learned anything about patience or respect. Have someone spell check and grammar check your work, you're upset and mistakes are easily made.

You need to show the dean you are extremely professional, entirely respectful, and not the least bit rude. You want him to have to second guess his ADCOMS decision to revoke your admission based on your behavior. Show him don't tell him.

This is good advice

any news?! Hope things are working out with you!

Good luck!

Wait I'm confused.
They rescinded their offer because you called them too much?

.....o_o??

Originally Posted by tayloreve

Wait I'm confused.
They rescinded their offer because you called them too much?

.....o_o??

Yeah wth........I wouldn't go.....Go to a school where the people are nice.

Maybe a mistake was made?

Originally Posted by tayloreve

Wait I'm confused.
They rescinded their offer because you called them too much?

.....o_o??

Well, in a previous thread, the OP stated that they called the office 20 times, with the guy in his office. He didn't pick up, and when he finally did, he was annoyed. (Honestly, I would be be too if someone called 20 times).

But wait, I'm a little confused here... if your offer was rescinded, doesn't that mean someone else got your spot? Maybe someone from the waitlist? So saying that they accept you back, wouldn't that mean the person who took your spot (or will take your spot/has been notified of an opening) is going to get kicked out?

Originally Posted by y3nd0

(Honestly, I would be be too if someone called 20 times)

And I'd be annoyed if you weren't doing your job and took it out on some poor applicant who was just trying to get some answers.

Originally Posted by GobBluth

And I'd be annoyed if you weren't doing your job and took it out on some poor applicant who was just trying to get some answers.

There is no saying what he was doing in his office at the time. An admissions director has more duties than taking care of applicants.
Calling once or twice, maybe even up to 5 times and leaving a few messages? I'd be OK with that. Calling 20 times constantly without leaving a message? I am not OK with that.

Originally Posted by y3nd0

There is no saying what he was doing in his office at the time. An admissions director has more duties than taking care of applicants.
Calling once or twice, maybe even up to 5 times and leaving a few messages? I'd be OK with that. Calling 20 times constantly without leaving a message? I am not OK with that.

True, that could be annoying, but just place yourself in his position. You're a dental student, and you might lose your seat after getting accepted, and all because someone didn't answer one simple question for you. Yes, he should have left a message and followed up perhaps an hour or two later, or a day or two later, but we're human and we make mistakes. Applying to dental school is stressful. The thought of getting what you want, and then it being taken away from you is too terrible to even contemplate.
That being said, IAmSorry clearly regrets his/her actions. They would obviously do things differently if they could, but they can't. And it sucks.
Perhaps we could keep thoughts like above to ourselves and support IAmSorry? It's not like they did something illegal or unethical or immoral. We should be thankful that IAmSorry posted their story so we could all learn from it.

Yeah this story doesn't make any sense. There had to of been something else. Calling someone 20 times in a row is quite ridiculous, but there has to be something else behind this story. Do share.

The story is too ridiculous to be true, but let's be courteous and not question him regardless of whatever that something. Back in december, I thought my acceptance was gonna get rescinded and oh Lord you don't wanna be in that situ.

Originally Posted by premolar9

True, that could be annoying, but just place yourself in his position. You're a dental student, and you might lose your seat after getting accepted, and all because someone didn't answer one simple question for you. Yes, he should have left a message and followed up perhaps an hour or two later, or a day or two later, but we're human and we make mistakes. Applying to dental school is stressful. The thought of getting what you want, and then it being taken away from you is too terrible to even contemplate.
That being said, IAmSorry clearly regrets his/her actions. They would obviously do things differently if they could, but they can't. And it sucks.
Perhaps we could keep thoughts like above to ourselves and support IAmSorry? It's not like they did something illegal or unethical or immoral. We should be thankful that IAmSorry posted their story so we could all learn from it.

Don't get me wrong, I completely sympathize with the OP. It sucks. I don't agree with how the school acted in response to the incident and am totally on their side. I'm just saying that I understand where the school is coming from on some level.

Originally Posted by TheClutch

The story is too ridiculous to be true, but let's be courteous and not question him regardless of whatever that something. Back in december, I thought my acceptance was gonna get rescinded and oh Lord you don't wanna be in that situ.

what happened?

can you pm pls?

thx

there's no question that what i did was wrong and i regretted it bitterly. however, i truly thought that maybe, just maybe... what i did didn't deserve such a severe punishment - offer taken away.maybe a letter of apology, warning, reprimand, but offer taken away is just too heartbreaking.i just dont think it's on equal grounds with things like DUI, crimes, cheating, lying, etc.
i guess this school has zero tolerance for unprofessional behavior regardless of the circumstances or whether it's a first offense.
i was already reprimanded when the director picked up the call. he hanged up on me, not allowing me to say anything, and warned me against contacting the school again. i was under a tremendous amount of worry and sadness for the next ~3 weeks before being told that my offer was rescinded at the end of apr.
do i think it's a horrible experience? yes. honestly i'd much prefer if he rescinded my offer on the spot on apr 9.....
do i think what i did was wrong? yes. im really sad that i'm never given a second chance again.
as to what's going on right now, i sent a letter to the school. my request to have a phone conference or meeting was ignored, but i was told that my letter would be sent thru for a re-evaluation. i'm not keeping my hopes up.
and that's all there's to it. i see no reason to be dishonest....
i wish to thank u all for ur concern. i appreciate all your comments positive or negative. i'm so glad to hear that my post helped educating some of u.

also, to whom it may concern, please don't pm me anymore regarding which school this is. i don't feel it's appropriate to reveal the school on a forum setting. everything said here should be taken with a giant pouch of salt.

Well, IAmSorry, I really do wish you the best of luck. If it doesn't work out this time, don't give up and keep fighting. Reapply next year. You'll definitely get in.

Not sure if it applies here, but have considered consulting with an attorney to see if their action was legal. If anything a lawyer could probably help you get your deposit back and maybe even get your acceptance back.

I have just heard that for people who are being dismissed from dental schools for academic reasons, have often got academic lawyers that have prevented their dismissal.

Again, i am not suggesting this, and it may not even be appropriate, just wanted to see what everyone thought?

i feel so bad..man... im just worried that thedean may have been reading your posts..which could put you in amore awkward position..

Originally Posted by UltimateHombre

Not sure if it applies here, but have considered consulting with an attorney to see if their action was legal. If anything a lawyer could probably help you get your deposit back and maybe even get your acceptance back. I have just heard that for people who are being dismissed from dental schools for academic reasons, have often got academic lawyers that have prevented their dismissal.

When things go south, it is time for an attorney; while at it, spend 10K to get a 1K refund.

Originally Posted by IAmSorry

there's no question that what i did was wrong and i regretted it bitterly. however, i truly thought that maybe, just maybe... what i did didn't deserve such a severe punishment - offer taken away.maybe a letter of apology, warning, reprimand, but offer taken away is just too heartbreaking.i just dont think it's on equal grounds with things like DUI, crimes, cheating, lying, etc.
i guess this school has zero tolerance for unprofessional behavior regardless of the circumstances or whether it's a first offense.
i was already reprimanded when the director picked up the call. he hanged up on me, not allowing me to say anything, and warned me against contacting the school again. i was under a tremendous amount of worry and sadness for the next ~3 weeks before being told that my offer was rescinded at the end of apr.
do i think it's a horrible experience? yes. honestly i'd much prefer if he rescinded my offer on the spot on apr 9.....
do i think what i did was wrong? yes. im really sad that i'm never given a second chance again.
as to what's going on right now, i sent a letter to the school. my request to have a phone conference or meeting was ignored, but i was told that my letter would be sent thru for a re-evaluation. i'm not keeping my hopes up.
and that's all there's to it. i see no reason to be dishonest....
i wish to thank u all for ur concern. i appreciate all your comments positive or negative. i'm so glad to hear that my post helped educating some of u.

also, to whom it may concern, please don't pm me anymore regarding which school this is. i don't feel it's appropriate to reveal the school on a forum setting. everything said here should be taken with a giant pouch of salt.

I wish you the best luck and don't worry you will get into a better school. If you need any tips/info about admission/applying stuffs although I'm sure you know tons, PM me.

Originally Posted by UltimateHombre

Not sure if it applies here, but have considered consulting with an attorney to see if their action was legal. If anything a lawyer could probably help you get your deposit back and maybe even get your acceptance back.

I have just heard that for people who are being dismissed from dental schools for academic reasons, have often got academic lawyers that have prevented their dismissal.

Again, i am not suggesting this, and it may not even be appropriate, just wanted to see what everyone thought?

Even if OP gets the acceptace back by suing the school, he/she still needs to spend 4 yrs there. OP will be a miserable outcast.