Osteopathic Practitioners With a Chip on Their Shoulder

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I've noticed a lot of med students seem to feel that DOs are somehow more "holistic" and "patient-centered" than are MDs. What is up with it, it's quite frankly demeaning, my father is an MD, he never puts people down for the letters after their name and would rather judge individuals for their clinical acumen. Since MDs substantially outnumber DOs and many future colleagues, preceptors, professors and associates will be MDs, are people willing to lay aside the pretense that their is some vast difference in how the two different groups treat people and recognize that being a competent, empathetic physician depends on the practitioner not the initials?

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

I've noticed a lot of med students seem to feel that DOs are somehow more "holistic" and "patient-centered" than are MDs. What is up with it, it's quite frankly demeaning, my father is an MD, he never puts people down for the letters after their name and would rather judge individuals for their clinical acumen. Since MDs substantially outnumber DOs and many future colleagues, preceptors, professors and associates will be MDs, are people willing to lay aside the pretense that their is some vast difference in how the two different groups treat people and recognize that being a competent, empathetic physician depends on the practitioner not the initials?

The more people bring it up, the more of an issue it becomes. I completely agree with you... the holistic and patient-centered talk are things that pre-D.O. students cling on to, as a way to justify themselves going the DO route because their MCAT/GPA isn't up to parr (not everyone falls in this category, of course)... and they read how osteopathic doctors focus on "the patient as a whole".

Sorry, ranting. Best thing to do is not create threads like this... as it perpetuates the problem.

Self defense. That's all. I don't girls because I'm a nice guy. I'm not rich because I don't want to screw people over. I don't want to be a doctor because of the family sacrifices. I didn't win because I wasn't trying. Same thing. It's human nature to protect yourself and decisions that you have to live with. When I see really fit guys and girls all over them, I pretend they have really tiny junk so I feel better about being a fatass.

Originally Posted by FrkyBgStok

When I see really fit guys and girls all over them, I pretend they have really tiny junk so I feel better about being a fatass.

If you only knew...

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

I've noticed a lot of med students seem to feel that DOs are somehow more "holistic" and "patient-centered" than are MDs. What is up with it, it's quite frankly demeaning, my father is an MD, he never puts people down for the letters after their name and would rather judge individuals for their clinical acumen. Since MDs substantially outnumber DOs and many future colleagues, preceptors, professors and associates will be MDs, are people willing to lay aside the pretense that their is some vast difference in how the two different groups treat people and recognize that being a competent, empathetic physician depends on the practitioner not the initials?

Probably depends who you talk with about the subject. Any DO attending probably doesnt give a rats ahole about it because, as you said, it doesnt matter. Conversely, pre meds on SDN will defend/berate others depending on their situation. Turns out, real life is far different from the picture that SDN paints.

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Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

I've noticed a lot of med students seem to feel that DOs are somehow more "holistic" and "patient-centered" than are MDs. What is up with it, it's quite frankly demeaning, my father is an MD, he never puts people down for the letters after their name and would rather judge individuals for their clinical acumen

I know a lot of DO students and DOs, and none of them have this attitude. They're all too busy to philosophize. But I guess there is a shortage of drama on SDN.

Originally Posted by FrkyBgStok

Self defense. That's all. I don't girls because I'm a nice guy. I'm not rich because I don't want to screw people over. I don't want to be a doctor because of the family sacrifices. I didn't win because I wasn't trying. Same thing. It's human nature to protect yourself and decisions that you have to live with. When I see really fit guys and girls all over them, I pretend they have really tiny junk so I feel better about being a fatass.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

I can now go about my day having read something that made me feel good about myself!

These kind of threads are becoming redundant... Zzzzzzzzz

Originally Posted by Iliketoytles

The more people bring it up, the more of an issue it becomes. I completely agree with you... the holistic and patient-centered talk are things that pre-D.O. students cling on to, as a way to justify themselves going the DO route because their MCAT/GPA isn't up to parr (not everyone falls in this category, of course)... and they read how osteopathic doctors focus on "the patient as a whole".

Sorry, ranting. Best thing to do is not create threads like this... as it perpetuates the problem.

Originally Posted by FrkyBgStok

Self defense. That's all. I don't girls because I'm a nice guy. I'm not rich because I don't want to screw people over. I don't want to be a doctor because of the family sacrifices. I didn't win because I wasn't trying. Same thing. It's human nature to protect yourself and decisions that you have to live with. When I see really fit guys and girls all over them, I pretend they have really tiny junk so I feel better about being a fatass.

Its very true. No one wants to think someone else is better than them in any way.

Originally Posted by Dharma

These kind of threads are becoming redundant... Zzzzzzzzz

Where are the Pokémon experts?

The whole "let's emphasize how D.O.'s are different and that is a good thing" is not only grasping for straws, it's very clearly just a defense mechanism.

Because if it wasn't, the goal would to be to make M.D.'s the same. The rhetoric wouldn't be "blah blah philosophy" it would be oh look MD's think in a similar manner now, look at this program at X school isn't that cool? Now everyone is buying into this!

I mean really the goal wouldn't be to say "oh look only we know OMM that makes us so unique." The goal would be to systemically examine all OMM, abandon the practices that have evidence against them (COUGH CRANIAL COUGH) and get others to practice the stuff that actually has evidence.

The OMM faculty shouldn't be stroking it over how unique OMM is for DO's, rather they should be saying "what has good evidence and which specialists could we try and convince to use it? Where else are similar practices used in PT/PM&R/Pain? Can we examine the differences? Also does it really make sense to teach medical students this material or should we shift it to residencies."

I don't think allopathic schools in 1945 were like "OH GOD WE'RE SO UNIQUE BECAUSE OF PENICILLIN LETS NOT TRY AND GET OTHER HEALTH PROFESSIONALS TO USE IT."

Originally Posted by Iliketoytles

The more people bring it up, the more of an issue it becomes. I completely agree with you... the holistic and patient-centered talk are things that pre-D.O. students cling on to, as a way to justify themselves going the DO route because their MCAT/GPA isn't up to parr (not everyone falls in this category, of course)... and they read how osteopathic doctors focus on "the patient as a whole".

Sorry, ranting. Best thing to do is not create threads like this... as it perpetuates the problem.

I get the opposite vibe. It seems to me that the vast majority of pre-D.O., D.O. students/residents/young attendings think it's all BS. It's the old guard of washed up FM docs that make up the AOA leadership that are pushing the differences.

Originally Posted by Whiskeypunch

I get the opposite vibe. It seems to me that the vast majority of pre-D.O., D.O. students/residents/young attendings think it's all BS. It's the old guard of washed up FM docs that make up the AOA leadership that are pushing the differences.

I see your point, but I think pre-D.O.'s have a horrible habit of spouting out this nonsense, more than any of the D.O. students/residents/etc... All the "I have no problem going D.O. I like the philosophy. Btw, here are my stats: 2.0 GPA, 24 MCAT. WAMC?"

I think this applies mostly to premed students who are getting ready for application season. They want to make themselves feel like it's okay to apply for D.O. (of course it is) and they keep spitting the same stuff out to convince themselves D.O. is not only just as good, but few go as far as saying it's even better than MD because "D.O.'s have to take OMM as well, y'know!!!"

It's all rubbish, tbh. Fortunately this phase among premeds doesn't last long... I think once we apply, we start to lose this ridiculous mentality and just focus on getting IN. Once in, we're off to become a doctor.

Originally Posted by Dharma

These kind of threads are becoming redundant... Zzzzzzzzz

Seriously. Haven't been on here in a week and it's still the same MD/DO boohockey.

Originally Posted by Mbeas

Seriously. Haven't been on here in a week and it's still the same MD/DO boohockey.

It never goes away, but after a few nice fun arguments it becomes a lolcat thread....
Oh.... I think it's time for one about now...

Originally Posted by serenade

It never goes away, but after a few nice fun arguments it becomes a lolcat thread....
Oh.... I think it's time for one about now...

Close enough...

Originally Posted by Whiskeypunch

I get the opposite vibe. It seems to me that the vast majority of pre-D.O., D.O. students/residents/young attendings think it's all BS. It's the old guard of washed up FM docs that make up the AOA leadership that are pushing the differences.

The funny thing is the reason I posted it was I was talking to some med students and they were emphasizing it.

For me, DO is another term for physician here in the United States. I think that the DO programs offer some additional tools (especially in pain management, etc), but this doesn't necessarily set them ahead of MDs. However, this doesn't mean that DOs are somehow subservient to MDs either.

I have met excellent MDs and I have met excellent DOs. Mostly, I have encountered DOs that are very approachable and "real" people more so than MDs from my personal experience. Both sides, when honest with each other, will admit that we need as many physicians as we can get and to be honest doesn't really matter where you get in as long as you are an excellent physician in the end and truly care about doing the best for your patients.

I'm also a fan of pre-meds keeping an open mind toward all specialties until they are able to really, truly experience it for themselves as a med student in most cases (speaking from my own personal experience and watching my own evolution in thinking). Just my .02 on the subject.

Originally Posted by COMedic2Doc

For me, DO is another term for physician here in the United States. I think that the DO programs offer some additional tools (especially in pain management, etc), but this doesn't necessarily set them ahead of MDs. However, this doesn't mean that DOs are somehow subservient to MDs either.

I have met excellent MDs and I have met excellent DOs. Mostly, I have encountered DOs that are very approachable and "real" people more so than MDs from my personal experience. Both sides, when honest with each other, will admit that we need as many physicians as we can get and to be honest doesn't really matter where you get in as long as you are an excellent physician in the end and truly care about doing the best for your patients.

I'm also a fan of pre-meds keeping an open mind toward all specialties until they are able to really, truly experience it for themselves as a med student in most cases (speaking from my own personal experience and watching my own evolution in thinking). Just my .02 on the subject.

Well said. There are good apples and bad asses in both branches of medicine.
To myself, I think except OMM, the philosophies of MD and DO schools are almost indistinguishable nowadays. The holistic, whole-person approach, structure/function interrelationships, self-regulation and healing of human bodies, evidenced medicine etc. are embraced by both modern MDs and DOs.

As for OMM, although some concepts are not supported by scientific evidence, modern researches do support some of them. So just keep an open mind, and decide what are useful and what are not by examining research and clinical evidences.

Originally Posted by serenade

It never goes away, but after a few nice fun arguments it becomes a lolcat thread....
Oh.... I think it's time for one about now...

You beckoned?

after a quick rundown I think an important point not addressed is not that DOs are not as patient-centered as they claim, but that MD training is every bit as tailored to "individual care" and holistic notions of prevention and wellness as DO training is.

Originally Posted by OncoMD

If you only knew...

?

Dave she appears to be giving us a ladies opinion on swoll guys and their junk.

of all the MDs i talked to...(3 from the family..LONGGGG time practicing)

they were all "jealous" of the DO profession..

along the lines of..they learn more and have more tools ...im guessing they are talking about OMT

kinda suprised me

Originally Posted by se20001984

of all the MDs i talked to...(3 from the family..LONGGGG time practicing)

they were all "jealous" of the DO profession..

along the lines of..they learn more and have more tools ...im guessing they are talking about OMT

kinda suprised me

I have never heard an MD state that they were entirely jealous. However, I have heard many MDs that respect DOs as equal peers, respect their knowledge base, and believe that OMT may give them an extra set of tools. This whole bias against DOs mainly only exists in the pre-medical realm of those that have yet to experience real medicine or real life in some cases.

is it possible you have damage to the posterior non-dominant superior temporal gyrus?

Originally Posted by COMedic2Doc

This whole bias against DOs mainly only exists in the pre-medical realm of those that have yet to experience real medicine or real life in some cases.

God bless SDN

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

I've noticed a lot of med students seem to feel that DOs are somehow more "holistic" and "patient-centered" than are MDs. What is up with it, it's quite frankly demeaning, my father is an MD, he never puts people down for the letters after their name and would rather judge individuals for their clinical acumen. Since MDs substantially outnumber DOs and many future colleagues, preceptors, professors and associates will be MDs, are people willing to lay aside the pretense that their is some vast difference in how the two different groups treat people and recognize that being a competent, empathetic physician depends on the practitioner not the initials?

This is an interesting article: http://www.jaoa.org/content/103/7/313.full.pdf+html

I think as far as averages go, DOs may be (this is just one study) more patient centered in that many DO schools have a mission to produce primary care doctors. With this mission, they probably stress more aspects of doctor-patient interaction in their curriculum.

That being said, that doesn't mean that there aren't super personable MDs and rigid DOs. In fact, the most patient-oriented physicians I met were MDs. I think this patient-centeredness depends on a ton of aspects including individual personality/perspective, training (school/residency), experience, etc...

But what do I know.. I'm also a premed for another few months...

Originally Posted by dntke1518

God bless sdn

Originally Posted by hmainn

This is an interesting article: http://www.jaoa.org/content/103/7/313.full.pdf+html

..

it isnt too surprising that the jaoa found that allopathic physicians cite osteopathic principles less often....

I also believe that more holistic and preventative approaches in MD schools is something that is being stressed to a larger degree more recently than in the past. An average practice time of ~12 years does not really reflect this.

Originally Posted by FrkyBgStok

Self defense. That's all. I don't girls because I'm a nice guy. I'm not rich because I don't want to screw people over. I don't want to be a doctor because of the family sacrifices. I didn't win because I wasn't trying. Same thing. It's human nature to protect yourself and decisions that you have to live with. When I see really fit guys and girls all over them, I pretend they have really tiny junk so I feel better about being a fatass.

This. Add that to human nature to compete and we have this situation. I don't think it will change anytime soon.

Originally Posted by se20001984

of all the MDs i talked to...(3 from the family..LONGGGG time practicing)

they were all "jealous" of the DO profession..

along the lines of..they learn more and have more tools ...im guessing they are talking about OMT

kinda suprised me

I call bull**** on this. Nobody is going to be jealous over a couple of extra hours of OMT.

u can call BS...

but my 2 prac cousins (er and fm) MD said it...

they were like..they learn more have more tools...among other comments which will start a flame war..of do vs md...

i was also like whatttttttttttttttttttttttttttt????

the other guy wasnt in the family

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

I've noticed a lot of med students seem to feel that DOs are somehow more "holistic" and "patient-centered" than are MDs. What is up with it, it's quite frankly demeaning, my father is an MD, he never puts people down for the letters after their name and would rather judge individuals for their clinical acumen. Since MDs substantially outnumber DOs and many future colleagues, preceptors, professors and associates will be MDs, are people willing to lay aside the pretense that their is some vast difference in how the two different groups treat people and recognize that being a competent, empathetic physician depends on the practitioner not the initials?

Like others have said, it's just a way to defend pursuing DO.

Personally I like the idea and approach that everyone associates with DO (holistic, patient centered, prevention more-so than treatment, etc), but at the end of the day I know that all those things can be learned and practiced by an MD. You can also learn and use OMM as an MD if you want to. I do think the special emphasis on musculoskeletal can give DOs a different perspective in relevent specialties (ortho).

If my GPA was higher, I probably wouldn't be applying to DO schools because there is no difference between an DO and an MD and MD students have more options when it comes to residency/fellowship. Not to mention AACOMAS would be an extra expense that I wouldn't want to pay for. With that said, will I have a problem going to a DO school, or will I feel inadequate or below MDs? Of course not. My ability to treat patients and practice medicine will depend on how much effort I put into my education, not what degree (MD or DO) I get.

I do know people with good enough stats and ECs to get into a middle-tier MD of their choosing and possibly even upper-tier MDs who ended up picking DO. If SDN is any indication of the real world though, the majority of DO students have subpar undergraduate performances and simply couldn't get into MD.

I kinda wanna make a bm on this thread