Average drop out rate for M1?

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How many people did you lose M1? My SOM seems great to me, I have no beef. However, we've had a lot of people leave- both in being asked to repeat the year and in just leaving for good. A little over 10% of the class so far. What's normal?

Aside from the fact that those people are losing a ton of tuition money that they've already paid, those people at the bottom were padding my rank, so every one that leaves just increases competition which sucks for me. Plus it's tuition money that the school loses as we go on to M2. It just doesn't seem to be in anyone's best interests to drop students, but maybe this is completely normal.

Originally Posted by fineus

How many people did you lose M1? My SOM seems great to me, I have no beef. However, we've had a lot of people leave- both in being asked to repeat the year and in just leaving for good. A little over 10% of the class so far. What's normal?

Aside from the fact that those people are losing a ton of tuition money that they've already paid, those people at the bottom were padding my rank, so every one that leaves just increases competition which sucks for me. Plus it's tuition money that the school loses as we go on to M2. It just doesn't seem to be in anyone's best interests to drop students, but maybe this is completely normal.

lol wow..

Yes, realize this is douche thinking.

Regardless, do you know the average drop out rate for M1? What's normal?

Originally Posted by fineus

Yes, realize this is douche thinking.

Regardless, do you know the average drop out rate for M1? What's normal?

That sounds really high, we haven't lost anyone yet. And yes, you come across as a douche in your OP.

Originally Posted by fineus

It just doesn't seem to be in anyone's best interests to drop students

except for the public who don't need incompetent doctors

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

That sounds really high, we haven't lost anyone yet. And yes, you come across as a douche in your OP.

You haven't lost anyone? Wow. Ok. Thanks for the perspective.

Originally Posted by Rumalum

except for the public who don't need incompetent doctors

Touche`.

Originally Posted by fineus

How many people did you lose M1? My SOM seems great to me, I have no beef. However, we've had a lot of people leave- both in being asked to repeat the year and in just leaving for good. A little over 10% of the class so far. What's normal?

Aside from the fact that those people are losing a ton of tuition money that they've already paid, those people at the bottom were padding my rank, so every one that leaves just increases competition which sucks for me. Plus it's tuition money that the school loses as we go on to M2. It just doesn't seem to be in anyone's best interests to drop students, but maybe this is completely normal.

It's in the best interests of every patient everywhere, as well as the dismissed students' (why should they pay more tuition when they are unlikely to pass graduation requirements?)

To answer your original question, my school has about a 5-6% fail rate in MS1, most of whom get a chance to repeat the year. If they fail again, they are dismissed.

Originally Posted by DrSnips

It's in the best interests of every patient everywhere, as well as the dismissed students' (why should they pay more tuition when they are unlikely to pass graduation requirements?)

To answer your original question, my school has about a 5-6% fail rate in MS1, most of whom get a chance to repeat the year. If they fail again, they are dismissed.

This. It can be a blessing in disguise.

Originally Posted by fineus

Yes, realize this is douche thinking.

Regardless, do you know the average drop out rate for M1? What's normal?

I don't think there's a broadly applicable "normal" for every med school. Some are better at supporting their students more than others. My school is very much interested in bending over backwards to keep people in school once they start (free tutoring after failing a test, great counselors, making finances work, etc.).

Other schools can be more willing to let people leave if that's what they want, so their rates may be higher. I don't know.

My class of ~160 lost 8 (I think?) after first year. One guy realized within a week or so that it wasn't for him, 2 people failed and didn't want to try again, and the rest repeated the year.

We've lost a few more since then too, mostly dual degree people who realized the just wanted the Ph.D or MBA and not the MD.

Has there ever been a study done on various "tiers" of medical schools and their failure rates? Not to turn this into a flame war on what defines a "good" school, but I don't know of any top 10 medical schools with M1 failure rates in the 5 or 10% range. Does it really vary that much by school? I wasn't aware of US medical schools having failure rates anywhere near 10%.

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

Has there ever been a study done on various "tiers" of medical schools and their failure rates? Not to turn this into a flame war on what defines a "good" school, but I don't know of any top 10 medical schools with M1 failure rates in the 5 or 10% range. Does it really vary that much by school? I wasn't aware of US medical schools having failure rates anywhere near 10%.

How would you know that, though? Are schools required to report their drop rates anywhere?

Originally Posted by fineus

How would you know that, though? Are schools required to report their drop rates anywhere?

It's just my anecdotal knowledge from friends at other schools. I'm surprised that data on this isn't readily available, it would be a pretty big deal in choosing a school because it says a lot about how they treat their students and how much support is in place.

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

It's just my anecdotal knowledge from friends at other schools. I'm surprised that data on this isn't readily available, it would be a pretty big deal in choosing a school because it says a lot about how they treat their students and how much support is in place.

Not necessarily. Some of our courses have a built in 5% fail rate--the bottom 5% of the class fails the course. Since the same people are likely to be in that bottom 5% in each course, they fail the year. It has nothing to do with support.

Some of our courses have a built in 5% fail rate--the bottom 5% of the class fails the course.

What a god-awful policy, especially for a program with as many intelligent, driven people as med school has. Maybe that **** works okay for college, but it doesn't in this world.

Originally Posted by DrSnips

Not necessarily. Some of our courses have a built in 5% fail rate--the bottom 5% of the class fails the course. Since the same people are likely to be in that bottom 5% in each course, they fail the year. It has nothing to do with support.

Yuck. Sounds like law school to me, or a pre-med freshman class at a giant public university. That nonsense should not fly at any US med school.

Originally Posted by DrSnips

Not necessarily. Some of our courses have a built in 5% fail rate--the bottom 5% of the class fails the course. Since the same people are likely to be in that bottom 5% in each course, they fail the year. It has nothing to do with support.

I can't believe places are allowed to boobytrap courses like this. Sounds like your school doesn't have support for that 5%. They just let that 5% fail. So it has everything to do with support.

I would avoid any school with a dropout rate as high as 10%. Huge red flag.

Originally Posted by Wheatley

I can't believe places are allowed to boobytrap courses like this. Sounds like your school doesn't have support for that 5%. They just let that 5% fail. So it has everything to do with support.

I would avoid any school with a dropout rate as high as 10%. Huge red flag.

Hopefully the LCME catches on and slaps some sense into them. They're not that approving of schools that just let people fail. They've shown numerous times that they are very willing and able to suspend and/or revoke the accreditation of schools that aren't meeting their standards.

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

Hopefully the LCME catches on and slaps some sense into them. They're not that approving of schools that just let people fail. They've shown numerous times that they are very willing and able to suspend and/or revoke the accreditation of schools that aren't meeting their standards.

Well, in my school at least, usually the people failing have personal issues going on that are reflected in their academic performance, rather than the academic part being the underlying cause. The school does provide good academic development resources if that truly is where the person is deficient. But if they were smart enough to get in, then academics is rarely the problem.

Anyway, I do agree that the policy could be better constructed.

Originally Posted by DrSnips

Well, in my school at least, usually the people failing have personal issues going on that are reflected in their academic performance, rather than the academic part being the underlying cause. The school does provide good academic development resources if that truly is where the person is deficient. But if they were smart enough to get in, then academics is rarely the problem.

Anyway, I do agree that the policy could be better constructed.

It'd be great if we could get a list of schools that do shady things like this put up in pre-allo as a warning to those of us choosing between multiple acceptances....

Originally Posted by music2doc

It'd be great if we could get a list of schools that do shady things like this put up in pre-allo as a warning to those of us choosing between multiple acceptances....

I really think attrition rates with a breakdown of number who needed to repeat, number who chose to drop out, and number who failed out should be mandatory to make public. It's too important of a detail to keep secret from your potential future students. They can even put a time delay of a few years on it and report in multiple-year clusters to provide anonymity (i.e. report that for the years 2005-2010, x students needed to repeat, x students dropped out, etc.)

I think we have one repeating the year, but no one that has actually dropped out altogether.

Originally Posted by DrSnips

Well, in my school at least, usually the people failing have personal issues going on that are reflected in their academic performance, rather than the academic part being the underlying cause. The school does provide good academic development resources if that truly is where the person is deficient. But if they were smart enough to get in, then academics is rarely the problem.

Anyway, I do agree that the policy could be better constructed.

Do they really, though? Seems like a convenient excuse.

Originally Posted by fineus

Do they really, though? Seems like a convenient excuse.

Well obviously I can't know for sure. I get my news of classmates' personal issues through the rumor mill like everyone else. There are probably 1-2 people per year that are failing due to poor academics, but I really don't blame the school for that. At least not without some evidence that these students were neglected in some way.

Originally Posted by Rumalum

except for the public who don't need incompetent doctors

+1

forest > trees

It would also be interesting to know why the students are failing. Also, I would wonder if these same students would do considerably better at another school. While performance in school is individually based, often, the structure of the curriculum and policies that govern it can make or break someone.

No more than 1-2 people should fail a course. Consistantly low averages (76 or less) or high failure rates would indicate a problem with testing and/or education.

There are curricular structures that are much better than others in terms of material organization, sequencing of material taught (for example, GI physiology might make way more sense if you had biochem first, ensuring relavent physiology is taught before pharmacology, et cetera. Especially important in an integrated curriculum), presentation quality, test structure/content/length (a very detailed, high volume, short exam is much harder to prepare for than a 100-200 question detailed exam), number of exams/points built into classes (are there a couple of exams, or does one dest determine if you pass the class), course resouces (are there syllabi? Course objectives? Decent organization?). grading policies (Most people around SDN toss around the idea that all you need is a 70 to pass. Well, if your class exam averages are in the low 70s, getting that score might be quite the battle to get), and remidiation policies.

I do agree that the schools should be held accountable for student performance. They accept tons of second-hand federal money (via student loans) and state/federal support, and students take considerable personal and financial risk to attend medical school. This accountabilty might help them move towards correct policies and better educational structure.

"It would be interesting to know why the students were failing..."

2 dropped because it wasn't for them. A couple were already repeating the year and failed out again. The rest failed out just due to bad grades. One had legitimate health issues and one claimed to have health issues. And then there's also 5+ people who are remediating one class in the summer from first semester and probably several more who are going to remediating another second semester class.

I think my SOM does a pretty good job helping people who need help. I've never been anywhere else, though, so I don't really have anything to compare it to. I'm glad to know, in a way, that this isn't the norm. It's somewhat depressing.

Originally Posted by fineus

"It would be interesting to know why the students were failing..."

2 dropped because it wasn't for them. A couple were already repeating the year and failed out again. The rest failed out just due to bad grades. One had legitimate health issues and one claimed to have health issues. And then there's also 5+ people who are remediating one class in the summer from first semester and probably several more who are going to remediating another second semester class.

I think my SOM does a pretty good job helping people who need help. I've never been anywhere else, though, so I don't really have anything to compare it to. I'm glad to know, in a way, that this isn't the norm. It's somewhat depressing.

People would be up in arms at my school if 5 people had to remediate one class. Like, a miniature med school riot.

Originally Posted by fineus

How many people did you lose M1? My SOM seems great to me, I have no beef. However, we've had a lot of people leave- both in being asked to repeat the year and in just leaving for good. A little over 10% of the class so far. What's normal?

Aside from the fact that those people are losing a ton of tuition money that they've already paid, those people at the bottom were padding my rank, so every one that leaves just increases competition which sucks for me. Plus it's tuition money that the school loses as we go on to M2. It just doesn't seem to be in anyone's best interests to drop students, but maybe this is completely normal.

The padding your rank thing makes no sense at all. If you're ranked 50th out of 100, and you lose #'s 98, 99, and 100, you're still ranked 50th.

Whose best interests is it? Mosey over to the general residency forum sometime, where by far the primary issues discussed are by terminated residents who were 'unfairly' ousted. They complain about how they had personality conflicts with coworkers, or the PD was unfair, or the program culture was malignant... with generally very low insight into their own deficiencies. Is it maybe the case that some of these ex-residents (who bear in mind have no marketable skills and six figures in debt) were passed along during medical school and might have been better served being held to higher standards? Is the medical school's reputation damaged? Were patients hurt in the process? What about that resident's co-workers, who get to pick up the slack?

C'mon man, look at the larger picture behind your mistaken perspective on your inflatedclass rank.

1-2% over the total 4 years.

Originally Posted by Tic

The padding your rank thing makes no sense at all. If you're ranked 50th out of 100, and you lose #'s 98, 99, and 100, you're still ranked 50th.

Whose best interests is it? Mosey over to the general residency forum sometime, where by far the primary issues discussed are by terminated residents who were 'unfairly' ousted. They complain about how they had personality conflicts with coworkers, or the PD was unfair, or the program culture was malignant... with generally very low insight into their own deficiencies. Is it maybe the case that some of these ex-residents (who bear in mind have no marketable skills and six figures in debt) were passed along during medical school and might have been better served being held to higher standards? Is the medical school's reputation damaged? Were patients hurt in the process? What about that resident's co-workers, who get to pick up the slack?

C'mon man, look at the larger picture behind your mistaken perspective on your inflatedclass rank.

You'd go from 2nd quartile to 3rd quartile. Your absolute ranking wouldn't change but relative to the class it does. The contra to that point is that you would hope the rate of repeaters is the same so you'd replace them with the previous years repeaters.

Originally Posted by DrBowtie

You'd go from 2nd quartile to 3rd quartile. Your absolute ranking wouldn't change but relative to the class it does. The contra to that point is that you would hope the rate of repeaters is the same so you'd replace them with the previous years repeaters.

Exactly. Does it really matter? Probably not in the grand scheme of things. But if you're trying to match competitively, it might. Of course I acknowledge that this is a trivial concern relative to those students who have been ousted.

Originally Posted by fineus

Exactly. Does it really matter? Probably not in the grand scheme of things. But if you're trying to match competitively, it might. Of course I acknowledge that this is a trivial concern relative to those students who have been ousted.

Would you mind PMing me your school?

If you would have done a search, you would have seen a thread like this posted not too long ago.

At my school of 200, we will probably have lost 20 by the end of the year. This number is very high, and certainly not the norm (1%-2%).

And by lost, for the most part, I mean deferring until next year.

I think every medical school should be forced to publish their graduation rate. I would be concerned with any school that doesn't have a 95%+ graduation rate.

My university has a 30-35% fail rate across all its affiliated medical colleges for first years. But I'm in India, we have no shortage of med students here.

Originally Posted by Tic

The padding your rank thing makes no sense at all. If you're ranked 50th out of 100, and you lose #'s 98, 99, and 100, you're still ranked 50th.

Whose best interests is it? Mosey over to the general residency forum sometime, where by far the primary issues discussed are by terminated residents who were 'unfairly' ousted. They complain about how they had personality conflicts with coworkers, or the PD was unfair, or the program culture was malignant... with generally very low insight into their own deficiencies. Is it maybe the case that some of these ex-residents (who bear in mind have no marketable skills and six figures in debt) were passed along during medical school and might have been better served being held to higher standards? Is the medical school's reputation damaged? Were patients hurt in the process? What about that resident's co-workers, who get to pick up the slack?

C'mon man, look at the larger picture behind your mistaken perspective on your inflatedclass rank.

Rank is usually in percentiles, if people drop out below him while he is top 50%, he may go to top 55% of the class or something to that effect.

Originally Posted by venkt

My university has a 30-35% fail rate across all its affiliated medical colleges for first years. But I'm in India, we have no shortage of med students here.

Yeah and I heard the tests are all cumulative, with oral exams, and you really have to believe in yourself!

Which is why I'm surprised when about 25% of my Indian TA's are clueless in discussion groups...

This is a marginally frightening thread.