Financial Thread.. How much do you need when you retire

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I know we occasionally have some personal finance discussions on here. I pose this question.. I was speaking to some of the guys I work with and realized that many have no idea on this number. Guys 10 years older than me.

In todays dollars how much do you think you need to retire? Lets assume zero from Social security.

Consider (some might be obvious)

1) Once retired you dont need to save any more
2) Depending on what you want to do costs may go up (travel, hobbies etc)
3) The earlier you retire the more you will need
4) Costs of kids weddings
5) costs of taking care of elderly parents
6) No need for life or disability insurance

For me it is about $12-15k/month.. and a house without a mortgage.

Just curious what folks on here think. I realize its a ton of money but between travel (which gets expensive) and helping my kids and their grandparents.. thats kind of a number that would make me comfy.

I realize everyone has different issues on their mind.. Just wondering.. ActiveDuty surely has some great thoughts on this. Feel free to share.

.

I agree with you that everyone has (or should have) a number. You're thinking in terms of monthly expenses whereas I think more about the total I need saved. My goal and plan (since early med school) has been to save until I have enough to live off the interest generated without touching the principal. For me that sum is ~6 million. At that point I should be able to generate 240k-300k a year and enjoy life comfortably.

Originally Posted by Birdstrike

$2.5-3 million

Agree. I think shooting to replace your current income with investment income without touching the principal is unneccessary unless you are planning on retiring rediculously early.

You calling me out Ectopic?

I'm in the $2-3 Million camp. Using the 4% rule, that would provide $80-120K a year, or $6-10K a month. If you take away most of my taxes, all my retirement savings, all my life/disability insurance premiums, and the principal and interest on my mortgage then I'm living on that already.

Nothing wrong with spending $15K a month, as long as you have it.

I've blogged about this here:

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/percent...in-retirement/

Originally Posted by Arcan57

Agree. I think shooting to replace your current income with investment income without touching the principal is unneccessary unless you are planning on retiring rediculously early.

What counts as ridiculously early? I would like to have the financial freedom to retire by age 50-55. Doesn't mean I'll do it, but I would like to have that option.

Hercules.. Im like u.. I dont think I will retire early but if everything work wise went to crap and I decided I just wanted to enjoy life and give up work.. that spot to me is age 51.. Having a bit over 4M in the bank I could generate my 15k/month.. I am saving aggresively.. I think I will keep working because when I am 51 both my kids will be in college and it would be hard to quit then even if I wanted. I would now at that point I dont need to earn any more money.

Hercules, question is give me a picture of what retirement will look like for on 20-25k per month..

For me as outlined above I think I could do whatever I wanted at 15k assuming house is paid off (Leaving only maintenance and property taxes) I live on about this now.. take out student loans and im way below this.

Activeduty.. not calling you out but you are clearly one of the most educated financial guys on here. Wondering your thoughts. thanks for sharing.

Are we talking pre or post tax dollars? I assume that by the time I can retire the tax rate will be higher and dividends and interest will both be taxed at a regular income tax rate. Therefore I see my 20-25k/mo from investments turning into about 15k after tax, which really wouldn't be that lavish especially after inflation kicks in over the next 20 years. I think that at that level without a mortgage I could live comfortably but would still have to tap my principal for any major purchases (building a beach house that all the kids and grand kids can come to, etc).

I would say ridiculously early would be when you're more than 30 yrs out from when most of the people in your family die or before age 50.

My view fill in if it doesnt make sense.

13/month.. house paid off. Post tax income.. obviously would have to be adjusted for inflation but lets plan on using "todays" money.

Travel 50k/yr or 4k per month

9k.

Taxes/Homeowners insurance 1k

Utilities, phones, cell phone, internet water, garbage, gas for cars 1k
7k left

Health insurance 1k/month High deductible plans (savings 5k/yr now for this) (until age 65)

6k left
Food 1k (no kids)

Cars 1k/month
5k

Miscellaneous for the rest.. Haricuts, clothing etc. Need to leave some buffer for things.

Seems like this number works. Biggest difference between then and now.. 1) No need to save more money for retirement 2) kids all grown up and (hopefully) off the books 3) no more need for disability or life insurance

input would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by ActiveDutyMD

You calling me out Ectopic?

I'm in the $2-3 Million camp. Using the 4% rule, that would provide $80-120K a year, or $6-10K a month. If you take away most of my taxes, all my retirement savings, all my life/disability insurance premiums, and the principal and interest on my mortgage then I'm living on that already.

Nothing wrong with spending $15K a month, as long as you have it.

I've blogged about this here:

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/percent...in-retirement/

Holy crap! You're whitecoatinvestor??

Love your blog, I tell just about everybody to read it (medical folk as much as non )
So rare to find someone who writes so clearly and so well. Keep it up!

Famous people on SDN..

Yea, I've been on SDN since I was an MSI. 13 years now....It was a different name for a few years til I had to change while I was in the military. I started getting questions at work....

I credit SDN with serious help in advancing my career at key points (particularly working my way through the military medical system.)

Glad you like the blog. It's nice to be able to help those who spend so much time and effort helping others.

Originally Posted by ActiveDutyMD

You calling me out Ectopic?

I'm in the $2-3 Million camp. Using the 4% rule, that would provide $80-120K a year, or $6-10K a month. If you take away most of my taxes, all my retirement savings, all my life/disability insurance premiums, and the principal and interest on my mortgage then I'm living on that already.

Nothing wrong with spending $15K a month, as long as you have it.

I've blogged about this here:

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/percent...in-retirement/

Using the same rule I only need about $1.0-1.5 Million as I will have a mil retirement and I'll end up with the same annual income of $80-120k in today's dollars. With house and plane paid off or paid for with cash I will actually have much more disposable income since prior to going reserves for prereqs I was living off a mil salary of $80-100 while paying mortgage, investing for retirement, vacation, and car and I was pretty happy with that income level.

My plan is to retire from the military by 50, maybe a couple of years earlier, work part time until 55 and then I can cut free completely if I want. But I will also probably be living a lower cost of living place near the mountains like in northern Nevada or Wyoming (both income tax free states).

.

Anyone want to offer some thoughts/criticisms on my situation ? I admit that I know very little about personal finance altogether, so I'm very open to input/critiques.

I consider myself to be the "I live cheaply because the things that I like to do don't require a lot of money" type. A good day for me is going to the park, playing some softball, playing golf, fishing, enjoying the beach/good weather, watching sports, and just generally staying in simple, good health.

I will never have any children. Period. Please don't ask why.

I don't see the need to ever own a home. What will I do with a big empty house ? Clean it ? I also don't see the argument of "but being a homeowner gets you a big tax break..." because with property taxes and upkeep... you're just "renting" your home from the federal government every year, anyways.

Sure, I'd like to travel. But I'm not flying first-class to Switzerland every year.

How much (little?) do you think a person like me "needs"?

Originally Posted by RustedFox

Anyone want to offer some thoughts/criticisms on my situation ? I admit that I know very little about personal finance altogether, so I'm very open to input/critiques.

I consider myself to be the "I live cheaply because the things that I like to do don't require a lot of money" type. A good day for me is going to the park, playing some softball, playing golf, fishing, enjoying the beach/good weather, watching sports, and just generally staying in simple, good health.

I will never have any children. Period. Please don't ask why.

I don't see the need to ever own a home. What will I do with a big empty house ? Clean it ? I also don't see the argument of "but being a homeowner gets you a big tax break..." because with property taxes and upkeep... you're just "renting" your home from the federal government every year, anyways.

Sure, I'd like to travel. But I'm not flying first-class to Switzerland every year.

How much (little?) do you think a person like me "needs"?

Maybe $1.5 million? The thing is, if you plan to live as you say you do, you will accumulate much more than this with a physician's income. The largest expenses are typically home, travel, etc, but you say you plan to rent and travel modestly. I'm not sure what specialty you are in, but consider even a low physician income like $120k net. That's $10k per month. Without kids and a home, I can't see your monthly expenditures exceeding $5k with your lifestyle. Saving $60k per year over 20 years, that's approximately $1.2m neglecting inflation and growth rate (this amount with even conservative investing should be much larger).

If you are a specialist (rads, surgery, IM, etc), even if you spend exorbitantly (10-15k per month for two people), you will still end up saving more than $1.5m million over 20 years.

I'm in EM, about to hit attendinghood.

You're right-on. I don't plan on living exorbitantly. I think that a lot of young docs "drink the kool-aid" and think they "need" things like sportscars, speedboats, sportscars that turn into speedboats... but really... the things they own end up owning them.

I'm a pretty simple fella. I had ten days worth of "staycation" recently. Each day I went to the park, the batting cages, hit the driving range or played golf, watched sports, and sipped a beer or two. I thought to myself - "Yep. I could do this for awhiiile. Retirement sounds awesome."

I know I'm being short-sighted. I just want someone to tell me where/how. I'm not going to pretend like "I've got it all locked up". I want someone to tell me the pitfalls that I'm missing.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

I'm in EM, about to hit attendinghood.

You're right-on. I don't plan on living exorbitantly. I think that a lot of young docs "drink the kool-aid" and think they "need" things like sportscars, speedboats, sportscars that turn into speedboats... but really... the things they own end up owning them.

I'm a pretty simple fella. I had ten days worth of "staycation" recently. Each day I went to the park, the batting cages, hit the driving range or played golf, watched sports, and sipped a beer or two. I thought to myself - "Yep. I could do this for awhiiile. Retirement sounds awesome."

I know I'm being short-sighted. I just want someone to tell me where/how. I'm not going to pretend like "I've got it all locked up". I want someone to tell me the pitfalls that I'm missing.

The biggest pitfall you can have is changing who you are once you become a physician. Upon becoming an attending in EM your income is going to be multiplied 6 fold (assuming an average starting salary of (~250k). The best thing you can do is budget. Break down your monthly income and budget for any expenses you may incur. You cannot and should not know how much you need to retire yet, as you have yet to live a year as an attending. If you're new job is in New York City, you are going to have a lot less money to save/invest at the end of the month than if you live in a city in Montana. Where would you like to retire? Again, if you wish to retire in NYC you will need considerably more than in a small city.

Once you get a job shortly as an attending, monitor your budget and spending habits, Look at how much you need to retire assuming 4% interest on your retirement nest egg, where you want to retire, and adjust spending accordingly.

As stated above it all depends. One of my good friends I work with is a single guy. He automatically socks away 5k per month in savings plus his full retirement amount.

He lives really well on the rest.. He has no student loans.

Do you have student loans? That makes it tougher and then you have to consider how fast you want to pay them off (which depends IMO on interest rate).

If you live meagerly you could easily save 5-10k per month..

...there's a city in Montana ?

Yep. I borrowed deep for medical school. I'll pay it off fast, for sure.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

...there's a city in Montana?

Missoula, Helena, Bozeman, Kalispell...those are right off the top of my head, and I've never even been there.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

I don't see the need to ever own a home. What will I do with a big empty house ? Clean it ? I also don't see the argument of "but being a homeowner gets you a big tax break..." because with property taxes and upkeep... you're just "renting" your home from the federal government every year, anyways.

This is really the only point I'd quibble over, but buying vs renting always depends on your living situation. If you are planning on living in the same area for 5-7 or more years, it usually makes more financial sense to buy than to rent. Depending on location and housing market, you can find a mortgage cheaper than renting an equivalent sized home - not even taking into account the tax break you'll get for deductions on your mortgage interest. Additionally, depending on where you live, your house may be exempt from any financial judgements against you.

That being said - if you don't need a big house, don't get one. Not only will you end up filling it with things you don't particularly want or need, but you have to pay heating/cooling bills for a larger area that you just won't need.

You can even go the NY Times and use their website to put in your particular parameters to determine if you will make (save) more money buy buying or renting.

Originally Posted by Apollyon

Missoula, Helena, Bozeman, Kalispell...those are right off the top of my head, and I've never even been there.

like I said.... there's a city... in Montana ?

- Naaah, I'm just kiddin'. My best buddy from high-school lived in Bozeman for awhile. Looks gorgeous.

Originally Posted by xf3rn4nd3sx

Maybe $1.5 million? The thing is, if you plan to live as you say you do, you will accumulate much more than this with a physician's income. The largest expenses are typically home, travel, etc, but you say you plan to rent and travel modestly.

1.5 million really sounds nice to me. Anyone else wanna chime in ? I'm really digging this, actually.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

1.5 million really sounds nice to me. Anyone else wanna chime in ? I'm really digging this, actually.

One of the more popular ways of determining how big of a nest egg you need is to first figure out how much money per year you'd need in retirement. A safe withdrawal rate in retirement is usually 3-4%. For example, if you needed $50,000 per year in retirement to live off of and wanted to stick with withdrawing 4% of your total nest egg, you'd need $1.25 million.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

1.5 million really sounds nice to me. Anyone else wanna chime in ? I'm really digging this, actually.

The "standard" safe withdrawal rate without running out of money is 4% per year assuming you keep some stocks in your portfolio. I would have to look up the exact study, but there is one that was done in the late 90's that actually was responsible for this 4% rule. So the question becomes: How much money do you need per year to live on? Once you are retired you no longer have to pay for malpractice, you don't have to set money aside for retirement, you don't need life insurance or any of that kind of stuff. You only need your living expenses which should include any costs of travel, entertainment, etc. Oh, and ideally your house is paid off. I agree that you don't need a big house, but if you are going to put down roots in a place, a smaller house is probably better than an apartment.

Once you have that annual income you can divide by 4%, or multiply by 25 (gets the same result), and you have the total amount in today's dollars that you need to save. Since it will take a while to save that amount you need to figure out how much you need to put away each month over however long you want/have to save and what your expected after inflation rate of return will be.

Using the above example if you want $50,000 per year in today's dollars of income then you need $1.25 million in todays dollars. Inflation is the in 3-3.5% range. Stocks average roughly 8-10%. So I like to use an after inflation "real" rate of return of 5% for my estimate. From here you either pick how long you want to invest to figure out how much per month you need to put away or you can figure out how much you can afford to put away each month and then figure out how long it will take. For that you will need a savings/investing time value of money calculator. The ones at http://www.mycalculators.com/ca/savecalcm.html work for my purposes, but there are others.

This is an interesting discussion. The 4% rule comes from being able to get that money in interest without even touching your nestegg. In reality I think after being an EM doc if married 100k/ yr would be minimal. I get the mentality of doing things in a inexpensive way.

I think over time you should expect your tastes to become more expensive. Its a safe approach. For me as a married guy with 2 kids my hope is to have 4 million put away to know ill have enough. That takes into account inflation and a 35 yr retirement. I honestly think that it will be way more than I need. ~200k /yr with my house paid off should be a nice retirement. There are some nice calculators on bankrate.com which are IMO more aesthetic and functional than the site above.

This discussion is GREAT, especially for financial noobs like me who haven't ever given a thought to retirement/etc because those little things like "med school" and "residency" came before "IRAs" and "401ks".

I heed your warning, EF - about my tastes becoming more expensive. Two things I can rest assured of, however are:

1) No kids. Ever.
and 2) No desire for the elite cars/boats/etc.

I think this cuts down my need for a lot of overhead.

Four percent... eh.... ? Hmm.... I figure I can get away with 2.5 million being my benchmark, then... and that's on the high-end. That gives me 100K/year to live on.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

Four percent... eh.... ? Hmm.... I figure I can get away with 2.5 million being my benchmark, then... and that's on the high-end. That gives me 100K/year to live on.

Just remember that is $2.5 million in today's dollars. You have to calculate out your savings properly because 15 years from now if you have $2.5 million in the bank it won't be enough due to inflation. Check out ActiveDutyMD's blog http://whitecoatinvestor.com/ and the Boglehead's Wiki http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page for some great places to start. They also have book recommendations as well. The two that will get you going the quickest are The Boglehead's Guide to Investing and The Boglehead's Guide to Retirement.

Thanks, amigo.

Well in all honesty, $2.5m is more than enough for rusted fox to retire. Although one must consider inflation, average rate of growth is typically higher than inflation. Even now, in this poor economic period, inflation rate is only 2.30%. It's not hard to achieve an annual rate of growth higher than this.

Also Rusted fox.. While kids are expensive even if you cut them out consider this.

1) Cars arent really that expensive. You could get a 50k car for say 700/month (rough estimate) on a lease. is $700 a month a lot for an attending? I would say no when your income is 20k/month.

The real costs IMO come from traveling (highly expensive) which I assume you want to do. Expensive hobbies (you say you have none) and kids (not a factor for you).

In time your tastes will become more expensive. That will happen. I wont even include housing cause to me thats another investment/retirement/rent thing.

For me I want to buy a home with about a 800k mortgage in a couple of years. For me I hope that when I retire in 20 years it will be worth 1.5 or so. Ill owe like 400k.. Ill use the 1M or so and buy my "retirement home" and maybe have money left over.

It just depends on income and personality. I am about 3 years out. I make good money. Ill save 150k this yr but drive a 2004 Mazda 3 and am damn proud of it.

Heed this.. you dont need a 80K car.. save now enjoy life you can get the 80k car later.. oh and save diligently.

Originally Posted by EctopicFetus

Also Rusted fox.. While kids are expensive even if you cut them out consider this.

1) Cars arent really that expensive. You could get a 50k car for say 700/month (rough estimate) on a lease. is $700 a month a lot for an attending? I would say no when your income is 20k/month.

The real costs IMO come from traveling (highly expensive) which I assume you want to do. Expensive hobbies (you say you have none) and kids (not a factor for you).

In time your tastes will become more expensive. That will happen. I wont even include housing cause to me thats another investment/retirement/rent thing.

For me I want to buy a home with about a 800k mortgage in a couple of years. For me I hope that when I retire in 20 years it will be worth 1.5 or so. Ill owe like 400k.. Ill use the 1M or so and buy my "retirement home" and maybe have money left over.

It just depends on income and personality. I am about 3 years out. I make good money. Ill save 150k this yr but drive a 2004 Mazda 3 and am damn proud of it.

Heed this.. you dont need a 80K car.. save now enjoy life you can get the 80k car later.. oh and save diligently.

But I really want that Bimmer.


*sigh*

Yeah... I do like to travel. That much is for sure. Open to good ideas on places to go this autumn.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

Yeah... I do like to travel. That much is for sure. Open to good ideas on places to go this autumn.

Spain. Europe in general

By the way, thanks to everyone for posting in this thread. Especially ActiveDutyMD. Your blog is pretty great. (Ever think about podcasting?)

Ehh. Too soon for Europe. I'm not gonna be able to afford THAT so soon. Gotta think "North America".

Been to Spain when I was in undergrad. Maaan, what a cool place. Will go again, for sure.

You can travel in the US very affordably....

Espically if you are open to going 'wherever'.

Watch local airfare sales to XYZ. Priceline hotel rooms; I've stayed in some really nice places for 50-80 bucks per night. You can often get a very reasonable rental car and sometimes an upgrade. We recently flew to LA and I made talk with the rent car guy and he gave us a convertable at the midsize rate!

We have been traveling much and we are slowly falling into that hitch of wanting to do things nicer. I upgraded my flight to first class to/from DC recently for 125 each way. We recently were in Florida.. I originally looked at doing priceline for a room (we've stayed in MANY priceline rooms) and probably could have gotten something on the beach or near it for less than 100.. but there was this really nice resort we really wanted to stay at.. so that was 300 a night. Then of course lugging the baby, 25/nt for valet did not sound bad. And of course when you go eat.. you eye that foie gras appetizer that costs 25.

Anyways... my wife and I had our best vacation as our honeymoon. We flew to Boston cheaply and rented a car for just under 200 for a week. Thats ALL we had booked. We started driving and used priceline for everything. Every room was less than 50/nt except on the beach in bar harbor maine was 80. We ate lobster for nearly every meal. Our entire 'honeymoon' cost about 1500... except the son that came 9 months late continues to be costly..

I hear people say traveling is exspensive.. but with an open mind, the internet, and some sleuth work.. I think traveling can be CHEAP. We also used to use those restaurant.com coupons to get a great deal on food. What we finally figured out was that those places weren't the best place to eat.. and we like to eat.. so we tend to hit the hot spots in a new town we venture to.

The costly thing lately for me is going to conferences and staying at the host hotels. They beat you up on rates; and its such a huge pain to stay at another nearby hotel. I just booked my ACEP SA hotel.. almost 1500 bucks for a week.

flyertalk.com is a great forum website for travel deals, hotel discussions, frequent flyer promos, etc. I did some CC deals that got me a Southwest Companion pass so currently everytime I buy a ticket, my wife flys free with me.

Snap... new thread idea.. EM traveltalk, anyone?

Someone else make it happen, I feel bad posting 2+ new threads/week. Makes me feel like a troll.

I'm open to going "wherever". I'm looking for big ideas for "wherever".

Originally Posted by RustedFox

Snap... new thread idea.. EM traveltalk, anyone?

Someone else make it happen, I feel bad posting 2+ new threads/week. Makes me feel like a troll.

I'm open to going "wherever". I'm looking for big ideas for "wherever".

Lol I feel like a troll just being in the EM forum...

Dun sweat it. We're a good bunch here. You're not EM ?

... and before you tell us 'what' specialty you are... you need to give me (us) one really cool-ass domestic travel idea.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

Dun sweat it. We're a good bunch here. You're not EM ?

... and before you tell us 'what' specialty you are... you need to give me (us) one really cool-ass domestic travel idea.

I think he is Neurosurg...

Traveling on the cheap still isnt cheap.. thats my point.. $50/night is still $1500/month plus airfare (where if you have a destination in mind aint cheap) thats on top of rent/mortgage. Plus dining out at nice places, museums entrances or whatever.. All I am saying is it adds up.

I am def not saying not to do it. Just keep in mind thats where a lot of money goes. Not too many ED docs drive 80k cars.. instead we travel or do hobbies, but those add up.

Listen in 2012 I have been to Miami, Boston and Vegas. I have trips planned to Vegas (again) where Ill stay at the 4 seasons, a beach house on the water on South Padre, Ohio, then trips to Denver and maybe another trip for ACEP SA.. Oh and then Memphis for Xmas.

My point isnt that you shouldnt do it. IMO earning 200k+ without enjoying your life means you missed the whole point.. My point is it isnt cheap.

There is a single dude I live with. He earns what I earn.. No kids.. Rent is 2k/ month, no loans, car paid off.. he lives well but travel kills him.. RF just keep it in mind man. the money will disappear quicker than you think especially as you have more free time.

Originally Posted by RustedFox

Dun sweat it. We're a good bunch here. You're not EM ?

... and before you tell us 'what' specialty you are... you need to give me (us) one really cool-ass domestic travel idea.

Yup, neurosurgery (I have no clue why I'm in this forum, but you guys seem like a nice bunch).

Hmmmm, cool-ass domestic travel ideas eh?
I've always wanted to go to the Mall of America... I hear it has an amusement park

Lots of cool things to do in the US. Just depends what you like..

The outdoors? Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Denali national park, Mt Rushmore hiking anywhere out west. HAwaii.. Go fishing anywhere.

More historic Drive up the whole area from DC to boston.. lots of history there. Lots of museums.

Something nice: Napa Valley wine etc.

Music: Nashville (if you like that type of music) I have visited there and love that city.

Just decide what you want to do and do that.. The country here is huge with such amazing different landscapes you can find something.

Oh yeah, in no way did I mean to imply that "there wasn't anything to do here". I was just looking for someone to say - "Y'know - I just went to ______ with the wife and we had a killer time."

RF,

Can't beat Ocean or Lake in summer. Mountain biking, hiking, mountain kayaking close 2nd.
If late enough in fall/early winter, gotta head for the slopes. No question. Rest is childsplay IMHO.

Start in this thread in the lounge. It's got some good ideas about places to travel.

But don't wander around too far in the rest of the lounge, it's weird.

Originally Posted by EvoDevo

By the way, thanks to everyone for posting in this thread. Especially ActiveDutyMD. Your blog is pretty great. (Ever think about podcasting?)

Hmmm.....not yet. I spend too much time dinking around on the internet and not enough climbing as it is.

I was interested to learn recently that at least half my group contributes NOTHING to our 401K.

It's funny how it's just a few basic decisions that make all the difference between financial independence and living hand to mouth, no matter what the salary.

Originally Posted by ActiveDutyMD

I was interested to learn recently that at least half my group contributes NOTHING to our 401K.

It's funny how it's just a few basic decisions that make all the difference between financial independence and living hand to mouth, no matter what the salary.

I'm at $100k and max out my TSP and Roth IRA. Crazy that they are making at least double and not contrubiting anything.