Dismissed from DO School, Want Back In, Need Help!!

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Originally Posted by DocEspana

Edited because I'm not sure giving up my last shreds of anonymity are worth telling Bala he is wrong on most of his numbered points above. What you assume to be the case is not. My suggestion go to point 2a. That is absolutely 100% what's going on. If it bugs you, then do protest. Because thats the reality. Your attempts to use logic are admirable, but logic doesnt apply here. The fact is that what I said above is totally true. I dont really want to have to lose anonymity to prove my point.

I'm really glad you edited that post! I was just about to PM you to suggest that! And I'm not sure how I'm wrong when your own post (#97) says exactly what I said in my post.

Summary: I made the point that contrary to what was stated in earlier posts, most medical schools (DO/US MD/Carib) pay for rotations (one way or the other) and Carib schools pay much, much, much more while DO schools and US MD schools pay a similar rate (whatever that is) again contrary to what was stated in earlier posts regarding DO schools. It appears that you now agree as well.

Now let's get back to the OP's dilemma!

Originally Posted by DocEspana

I havent read the other parts of this thread yet, so IDK if someone corrected you on this, but in all american medical schools (MD or DO) the money making time is the *clinical* years. Pre-clinical is where the "profit" margin becomes very small or non-existant. Most DO schools pay extremely little, to nothing, for rotations. This is the same as MD schools. Both are forbidden from paying for clinical education. MDs are explicitly forbidden for paying for it. DOs are explicitly forbidden from using payment to acquire spots. It effectively means the same thing. That a school establishes a number, somewhere between $0 and $500 a month per student that they can justify as "academic offsets" of training a medical student. In both cases all of that money (if it exists) comes with many many strings that it *cannot* go to paying preceptors or faculty directly, but can only be used for directly covering costs the medical student induced, or for establishing educational programs.

So you're a bit off on the payment thing, since MD and DOs have the same rules there. Nothing like the Caribbean schools (who are paying $2500 per month per student or more). And the idea of pre-clinical being the money making period is completely wrong. At least when compared to clinical years. I cant disagree that one more person paying $40,000 is $40,000 more into the schools pocket. But thats true regardless of the year.

again i will reiterate that i was talking about schools OP might possibly have a chance of getting into (carib schools) .....so it seems we all agree on my actual point that accepting her would not be an economically motivated decision for these carib schools since they won't be profitting off of her.

OP obviously has no chance in the US MD or DO realm, and IMHO I think she should start looking at another career, allowing herself to fail both COMLEX and step 1 three times is simply unacceptable. Should've done much more the second and third time around and taken any steps necessary to ensure a pass (for instance going to Falcon's sleep away step 1 study camp and hearing the words come right out of Goljan's mouth)

Originally Posted by skinMD

again i will reiterate that i was talking about schools OP might possibly have a chance of getting into (carib schools) .....so it seems we all agree on my actual point that accepting her would not be an economically motivated decision for these carib schools since they won't be profitting off of her.

OP obviously has no chance in the US MD or DO realm, and IMHO I think she should start looking at another career, allowing herself to fail both COMLEX and step 1 three times is simply unacceptable. Should've done much more the second and third time around and taken any steps necessary to ensure a pass (for instance going to Falcon's sleep away step 1 study camp and hearing the words come right out of Goljan's mouth)

I agree there.

Originally Posted by bala565

I'm really glad you edited that post! I was just about to PM you to suggest that! And I'm not sure how I'm wrong when your own post (#97) says exactly what I said in my post.

Summary: I made the point that contrary to what was stated in earlier posts, most medical schools (DO/US MD/Carib) pay for rotations (one way or the other) and Carib schools pay much, much, much more while DO schools and US MD schools pay a similar rate (whatever that is) again contrary to what was stated in earlier posts regarding DO schools. It appears that you now agree as well.

Now let's get back to the OP's dilemma!

Yea. I was trying to make some points of clarification on where money goes. when its earned. how its distributed. But its mostly irrelevant. You're more or less the only person I wanted to have read it. You did. And I'm glad I edited it (and glad you would have suggested it as well). We are pretty much in alignment here. I was just nitpicking details because, well, its what I do.

And I'm seriously curious what the OP decided to do. Was it stated somewhere?

Originally Posted by DocEspana

And I'm seriously curious what the OP decided to do. Was it stated somewhere?

She seems pretty dead-set on taking the COMLEX for a fourth time to prove she can pass but as someone stated it likely won't be possible since you have to get certified by your school to take the test.

Originally Posted by skinMD

She seems pretty dead-set on taking the COMLEX for a fourth time to prove she can pass but as someone stated it likely won't be possible since you have to get certified by your school to take the test.

I think she said she was able to register. Whether it will actually count or not, I have no idea.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

I think she said she was able to register. Whether it will actually count or not, I have no idea.

I think you only need to be in good standing for initial approval. Since the system is automated, I think people can just re-register without much interference. There was someone from my school who failed it at least 3 times and was dismissed but was able to retake it at least once before anyone figure it out. I have no idea if he passed, but the problem after this is that he would not be able to take any further levels.

I really think the OP is wasting both time and money and I wish people would be more realistic. Even if s/he passes, the OP is still not enrolled in any medical school and there is a 0% chance anyone is willing to allow him/her to take a spot away from someone who has not demonstrated such difficulty or fill one of the very few holes left due to attrition; schools are only accredited for a finite number of spots in each class. The likelihood that the OP could pass any of the additional steps is extremely low and not worth the risk, as it lowers any school's statistics. As others have pointed out, the OP's ability to obtain a permanent medical license is also limited to only a handful of states.

IF a miracle happens and the OP is able to enroll into another school, pass the coursework, and pass the remaining exams, s/he is only able to apply for an internship/residency in a very limited number of states in pretty much only FP, IM, and maybe Psych. I have been involved in the selection of our incoming residents at my program and I can tell you that we have rejected people in less dire circumstances than the OP. I would not accept this person for training.

Originally Posted by HooahDOc

I think you only need to be in good standing for initial approval. Since the system is automated, I think people can just re-register without much interference. There was someone from my school who failed it at least 3 times and was dismissed but was able to retake it at least once before anyone figure it out. I have no idea if he passed, but the problem after this is that he would not be able to take any further levels.
.

Per NBOME rules, you have to be eligible (e.g. be in good standing) on the DAY of the exam. In fact you have to electronically certify that prior to starting the exam. Now, whether the system has been updated to reflect her dismissal or not, that's another issue (I'm sure it has been by now); also each time one fails, they have to have their deans office re-certify their eligibility. Also, she would be in violation of NBOME policy if she ever retakes it prior to being re-admitted.

how many tests is that total? It should be noted that many states have limits on how many times you can take the test and still be eligible for licensing. COMLEX in many cases has no limit, but to have failed USMLE so many times.... if she attempts step2 with similar outcomes she wont get a license anyways

It's time to look at a new career path. I can't think of any residencies that would even look at an application with that many failure on it. OP needs to admit to some responsibility here as well. Sounds like he's young, and can do something else.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

how many tests is that total? It should be noted that many states have limits on how many times you can take the test and still be eligible for licensing. COMLEX in many cases has no limit, but to have failed USMLE so many times.... if she attempts step2 with similar outcomes she wont get a license anyways

I'm pretty sure this is state dependent. She should be fine in certain states.

Originally Posted by River Rat

It is still pretty detailed a test and as someone who struggled so much with the general knowledge based tested in the first one, there would be no reason to expect to excel on the Step 2, especially considering the COMLEX's track record for a horrible Step 2 testing experience.

This was exactly what I was thinking. For whatever reason, COMLEX Level 2 tends to really trip up people who had any trouble with COMLEX I. It's tricky. People who have failed and successfully retaken COMLEX I (or even those who barely passed it) have often had real trouble passing COMLEX 2.

With a speed bump like this on the horizon, I'd be leery of trying to restart medical school until and unless you can identify a clear and rectifiable problem that is keeping you from doing well.

I have nothing bad to say. Certainly, your determination and perseverance is impressive. I also know better than to tell anyone what they can and can't do. What I do want to comment on is in regards to your passion to help people.While you are undoubtedly heavily emotionally (and financially and energetically) involved with this regardless of how this situation turns out remember that your passion and heart for people really can be done no matter what profession you choose. Being a physician is an excellent way but no career has an upper hand on this. Best wishes to you.

You should give up, you failed the exams multiple times, remediated repeatedly and have proven unable to complete the academics necessary to be a physician. It may sound harsh, but it is true. Imagine you were a patient how confident would you be if you were told your doctor had failed the licensing exams multiple times?

Patients don't ask nor are they explicitly told. You are being harsh. Until you're actually in medical school, regardless of your situation, you cannot imagine what the poster is going through. It's easy to cast stones as a medical student, easier as a premed.

Your tact is lacking. Cut the poster a break. Sheesh.

Originally Posted by Bacchus

Patients don't ask nor are they explicitly told. You are being harsh. Until you're actually in medical school, regardless of your situation, you cannot imagine what the poster is going through. It's easy to cast stones as a medical student, easier as a premed.

Your tact is lacking. Cut the poster a break. Sheesh.

I wanted to say the same thing but had hoped this thread would die Odds are the OP will not succeed in this. That is just a simple running of the numbers. But that is why we have these tests and selection processes, so that patients do not have to worry about what this kid is suggesting

class o 2017? some special program or overly optimistic? not even gunna graduate undergrad before the mayans come back and kill us all

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

I wanted to say the same thing but had hoped this thread would die Odds are the OP will not succeed in this. That is just a simple running of the numbers. But that is why we have these tests and selection processes, so that patients do not have to worry about what this kid is suggesting

class o 2017? some special program or overly optimistic? not even gunna graduate undergrad before the mayans come back and kill us all

BS/DO at NSU

Originally Posted by Bacchus

Patients don't ask nor are they explicitly told. You are being harsh. Until you're actually in medical school, regardless of your situation, you cannot imagine what the poster is going through. It's easy to cast stones as a medical student, easier as a premed.

Your tact is lacking. Cut the poster a break. Sheesh.

Don't shoot the messenger, what med school would take someone who has been kicked out for repeatedly failing classes, failed the COMLEX and USMLE, when they could take someone who hasn't had a chance yet? I doubt you need to be in med school to imagine that the OP isn't cut out for this, you don't need to have had cancer to treat it.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

BS/DO at NSU

well then in all sincerity I hope you dont eat your words to the OP. I always worry about kids in combined programs unless the requirements are as stringent as regular admission to med school. Undergrad simply does not compare.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

well then in all sincerity I hope you dont eat your words to the OP. I always worry about kids in combined programs unless the requirements are as stringent as regular admission to med school. Undergrad simply does not compare.

Minimums are 24 (no less than 7), 3.1 I'm above that though

you dont have to prove it to me

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

Minimums are 24 (no less than 7), 3.1 I'm above that though

I would hope so. Those would be miserable numbers.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

You should give up, you failed the exams multiple times, remediated repeatedly and have proven unable to complete the academics necessary to be a physician. It may sound harsh, but it is true. Imagine you were a patient how confident would you be if you were told your doctor had failed the licensing exams multiple times?

says the one not even in med school...

Gimme a break.

Ad hominems don't change reality

depends... an ad hominem is somewhat subjective.... credibility of a statement can change acceptance of someone else's perceived reality. we waxing too philosophical now?

?

Originally Posted by MaximusMeridius

?

strong first post

i.e. he may call it an ad hominem. others may interpret it as a statement questioning his credibility rather than a personal attack. The "reality" he states is reliant on his credibility.

I disagree that attendance in med school means one is or isn't qualified to comment on this.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

I disagree that attendance in med school means one is or isn't qualified to comment on this.

Silence young Padawan. Let the Jedi decide her fate.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

I disagree that attendance in med school means one is or isn't qualified to comment on this.

yes, your disagreement was not in question

OP might consider requesting a masters from her med school often they will give a Masters in Biomedical Science, that way that will be in a better place than they are now.

that is news to me

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

that is news to me

I've known some schools have granted masters after completion of the first two years if people leave, that said the people I know who have done this have left in good standing.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

I've known some schools have granted masters after completion of the first two years if people leave, that said the people I know who have done this have left in good standing.

i believe he was being sarcastic. this horse has been beaten to death and OP has gotten enough insight by now. good luck to her with whatever she decides to do.

Originally Posted by Memorex

says the one not even in med school...

Gimme a break.

He is still right though. This is the wrong time to pull the "shut up pre-med" card.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

Minimums are 24 (no less than 7), 3.1 I'm above that though

Really? That seems kind of low. I was a BS/DO at NYIT/NYCOM and the requirements for my year were 3.5 GPA and 26 on MCAT, which were decent requirements but still lower than regular admission (Non-program students) on average. This years incoming class has 3.5 per semester GPA and 27/28 (always increasing almost yearly) on the MCAT.

Good luck though, I'd be straight chillen with those requirements, enjoy these days

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

strong first post .

Ha! I had originally posted something asinine then decided to redact it.

You are suggesting that individuals who have remediated courses, repeated a year, or had to retake the boards are unable to become functional physicians?

We can't predict the OP's future, but if her life goal is to become a physician, who are we to say no to trying to get readmitted? It's her life. Seems like she doesn't care whichever residency she gets even if its FP in the middle of nowhere.

So, yes 99% that this is the end of the medical road for her, but I'd never say it is impossible.

Originally Posted by Memorex

You are suggesting that individuals who have remediated courses, repeated a year, or had to retake the boards are unable to become functional physicians?

We can't predict the OP's future, but if her life goal is to become a physician, who are we to say no to trying to get readmitted? It's her life. Seems like she doesn't care whichever residency she gets even if its FP in the middle of nowhere.

So, yes 99% that this is the end of the medical road for her, but I'd never say it is impossible.

underlined: having done one of these once is not the same as doing it multiple times. To be frank, yes, people who repeatedly fail boards are incapable of becoming functional physicians..... because the law forbids them from getting licensed. simple as that

B/I/U: she asked.... but we shouldnt get caught up in the idealistic belief that "dreams and positive thinking" is all that it takes. I could set my goal to be a fighter pilot. At 6'2" and 230 lbs no amount of hard work will necessarily get me there. They make those jets for little guys so I will settle for being a doctor i guess *sniff*

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

underlined: having done one of these once is not the same as doing it multiple times. To be frank, yes, people who repeatedly fail boards are incapable of becoming functional physicians..... because the law forbids them from getting licensed. simple as that

B/I/U: she asked.... but we shouldnt get caught up in the idealistic belief that "dreams and positive thinking" is all that it takes. I could set my goal to be a fighter pilot. At 6'2" and 230 lbs no amount of hard work will necessarily get me there. They make those jets for little guys so I will settle for being a doctor i guess *sniff*

I'm with you, and agree completely. But there are still people who refuse to give on "dreams and positive thinking" and they are entitled to live their life in such an idealistic manner if that's the only thing that makes them happy.

I think almost everyone here is telling her to get a new career, including me, but ultimately, its her choice. Let her prove us wrong if she wants - she has that right.

so.... we are saying this thread should be allowed to die before another noob comes in here and screams "GO BE A PLUMBER!", right?

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

so.... we are saying this thread should be allowed to die before another noob comes in here and screams "GO BE A PLUMBER!", right?

I wouldn't hire the OP as my plumber either.

If a plumber failed to declog my toilet 3 times I certainly wouldn't give him a fourth try. No matter how close they came to meeting my minimum declogging standards.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

Look, even if the OP finds a school willing to give him another chance, he won't be able to find a residency slot.

I didn't read through the entire thread, but it seems like you retook COMPLEX a 4th time? I hope you passed, and I hope you don't have problems on all the upcoming boards and licensing exams. If you fail those multiple times and get dismissed in 4th year/residency, you'll have even more debt than if you had just quit earlier.

Hope OP updates this thread with outcome.

Originally Posted by jumpmanv15

Hope OP updates this thread with outcome.

My magic 8 ball says, "Outcome not so good."

I'm going to set up a filter that automatically ignores any post on this forum that has the word COMPLEX capitalized and utilized as the name of the board exam. Those threads just immediately lose all credibility to me. I guess it's an honest mistake on a pre-DO forum, but it just makes me gag a little every time I see it on this forum.

Or you could just stop fighting it and come up with a snazzy P to put in there

Originally Posted by 504girl

Hey Everyone .... I need your advice!

I'm a 3rd year Osteopathic Medical Student and I've just been dismissed for failure of the COMLEX Level I 3 times. I've got so much training (and debt) and passion for this that I'm trying to find a way back in. "But you failed out No way they should let you back in!" ... yes, but let me explain.

This is long, so in hopes of weeding out the ignorant comments, let me first state that I absolutely accept full responsibility for my failing scores and under no circumstance do I mean to shift accountability onto any other person. I am writing this in hopes that the details of my circumstances might provide a more thorough picture so that someone reading this can offer me hope or help. Because NO - my scores do NOT reflect my abilities as a physician, and my knowledge has CERTAINLY been confirmed via rotations so i'm not a liability to patients.

1. MCAT score was weak - 25. High school gpa 4.0. B.A. gpa 3.5. M.S. gpa 3.3.

2. Got into med school - 1st year went fine. I was an average student.

3. During my 2nd year, I failed a course that was remediated successfully. I then failed a 2nd course but this was due to a very controversial exam that more than 50% of the class failed. It turned into a political battle and there was conflict of interest and it was handled very poorly on the school's part. Nonetheless, many students failed but I was one of the few who had to repeat the year due to 2 overall failures.

4. I repeated 2nd year of medical school with no failures, studied my butt off for the Level I and moved on to 3rd year feeling very confident about my performance on the Level I.

5. Rotations - During 3rd year, I completed 3 rotations in-between studying for my Level I retakes. I scored very highly on all 3 rotations, passed the COMAT exams, and even got letters of recommendation from attendings who were impressed with my love for learning and patient skills. Best part though, was the many patients who remarked on how much it meant to them that I loved my job. I've even been requested by returning patients. Plus, the research I've looked at shows that third year academic performance is a strong indicator of Comlex Level II scores. So it looks like Level I really is my last hurdle.

6. The Level I scores: 375, 380, 398 (400 is passing). So what went wrong?

a) My first attempt was 12 hours in the library 7 days a week for 6 weeks with a group of friends. I went through the entire USMLE World Q Bank (2,072 questions) and took notes in First Aid. As recommended by the creators of that Q Bank, I used it more as a learning tool than an assessment tool. Additionally, I used Savarese to study for the OMM content.

b) My second attempt - I paid for a Review program where I expected to learn things I somehow missed or had not previously understood. While taking classes with other students, I discovered instead that my knowledge base was rather thorough and needed only light reviewing. Moreover, I was scared by the lack of knowledge displayed by the other students who are now somehow still in medical school, but I don't mean to judge because I honestly don't know their situations.

c) My third attempt - I made many changes on this round.
1) I met with a highly recommended clinical psychologist who revaluated me for my previously diagnosed "Learning DO NOS" - the old documentation was outdated so now I got a more detailed H&P and we poured over all of my old documentation to administer tests that might hone in on my deficiencies. I was officially diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder, and YES it may be over diagnosed but NO not in this case. I am a great example of genetic involvement in ADHD.
2) I was referred to a neurologist who specializes in adult treatment of ADHD who was able to adjust my medications.
3) I met with a Learning Specialist who specializes in learning disorders as they affect medical board examinations. The specialist was able to explain to me that my ADHD actually causes me to process material too quickly and thus miss the big picture. Additionally, my hyperactive nature requires intense focus to slow down and concentrate, and that it causes me to get more easily fatigued than the average student. These two conditions create quite the conundrum when sitting down for a long timed exam. We worked to find a solution and we were further able to establish that I have a good working knowledge of Level I content.
4) I followed a study plan that involved some material review with a heavy focus on doing the COMBANK questions. I averaged about 50/60%.

7. 1 week before I was scheduled to take my 3rd attempt, I suffered a severe injury that required immediate surgery. This injury not only derailed my study plans but also delayed my return to rotations and forced me to reschedule the Comlex for a month later.

8. Having previously been denied accommodations by the NBOME and NBME (I took the step as well), I now had time to request them again. The NBME granted my request but the NBOME did not. Because of my injury, there was a lot of pain involved during the test that affected my concentration when I took it again one month later.

9. Regardless of all the pain I was in during the exam and the pressure to return to rotations, and despite the lack of accommodations from the NBOME when the NBME clearly saw a need, my school has dismissed me after my 3rd failure on the COMLEX. 2 FREAKING POINTS!

To say that this dismissal has been traumatic and devastating is to put it mildly. I have dedicated my life to medicine because I feel a calling to help people. I have spent thirteen years on this mission to serve as a physician and to lose it now, under circumstances that prove I would be an amazing physician with really bad exam taking abilities - just makes it worse. I'm called to this life. I'm already trained for this life. And it has taken ample sacrifices (lets just say i'm not in my 20's anymore). But will someone out there believe in me any further? Let's just say my school is more about the numbers than the student, and while the dismissal is hard, I certainly won't miss that school.


What do I plan to do?
1. I plan to seek legal advice regarding accommodations for the 4th attempt, though all my research shows that I would spend way too much money on attempting a lawsuit and would not win if it were against either the NBOME for accommodations or my school for dismissing me.
2. I plan to meet again with the Learning Specialist who has some additional approaches in mind.
3. Should I take the Level I a 4th time??? The NBOME allows a student 4 chances to pass the exam (not 3) and based on statistical trend alone, it is reasonable to assume that my 4th attempt will be successful, with or without accommodations. So - should I take the exam a 4th time? Can I even do this if i'm not enrolled?
4. Call other osteopathic schools (i'd like to keep my D.O. training if at all possible) and ask if I can join the Class of 2014 in July to repeat my 3rd year. Does anyone have any suggestions on schools that might allow me to attend if I do pass the exam on the 4th try? I don't mind starting my 3rd year all over again. That would be preferred to starting medical school all over again. Things are complicated by my spouse being in the 1st year of a 3 year residency, though my spouse is very understanding!

I could really use some sage advice right now. I feel incredibly lost.

[To those who have read this far, thanks a ton. It means a lot. For those who have negative or unsupportive comments, pretend you wrote them and move on. I've already heard more than enough of them from my school and they don't benefit anyone but you and your own need to vent.]

**UPDATE 1** I have registered for a 4th COMLEX Level I - I am still technically enrolled and am unsure if I would be able to register once I'm not enrolled, so I went ahead and did it while I still can. I am taking the exam in the very end of May. I figured if I can rock the exam, I have one month to call around and ask schools to let me into their 3rd year class. But scores take a month to come back, so I'm feeling pressured to move that date up. Perhaps I can just get an acceptance on the contingency that I passed the exam. I know i can do well on/pass this exam - to be honest, I have NO IDEA why it hasn't happened already. I know this stuff!!

**UPDATE 2** So I'm now going to wait until I get my results back from my Level I to call and beg for a chance at other schools. Probably won't get them until about June 30, but some students take a vacation month to study for their exam and then start rotations in August so I think it's still doable. Against the advice which i even agree with, i'm trying to find a lawyer in my area who deals with this kinda stuff but i have no idea where to start - I really do feel like I have a case based on a few points specific to my situation. As for my school changing my dismissal to a leave of absence to help me out, I don't think they'd go for that simply because that would actually be kind and helpful. That's not really their focus.

I feel so bad for what has happened to you, and in fact I had at least 4 friends (and more), who experienced the same fate as you? however there is one thing that many students failed to understand when taking these board examinations, the USMLE states that a student has "7 yrs to complete all of USMLE I, II, and III" and these examinations are scheduled perfectly to maintain "7 yrs), i.e. USMLE I is after 2nd year of medical school, USMLE II is by the fourth year, thus leaving a person 3yrs to pass USMLE III ( Once you take USMLE I, the 7yr time frame starts), most people take USMLE III after their first or second year of residency, thus leaving one extra year to complete the "7 yr time frame" as required by National Medical Board of Examiners/Examinations? I learned about that "7yr time frame" when may of my friends, were given a 4th time to take USMLE I and had passed, BUT had to end up going back to medical school and repeating their first AND second year, because otherwise they would have not had adequate time to complete USMLE II and III? Does that make sense? of the ones that went back to repeat their first and second years of med school (4), only one actually was able to graduate?