Marijuana

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What happens if you fail your schools drug test by testing positive for marijuana? You acceptance gets taken back? Does anyone know anyone who has smoked or does smoke in medical school? What about residency? What about later in their career? I haven't smoked in over half a year, but I was just wanting to find out what happens if you do fail. Also, I hope to get some honest answers about marijuana usage in the medical field. Don't forget, its easy to be anonymous on the internet.

If you have to even ask this question you're better suited working in taco Bell

I don't smoke marijuana. I also don't object to it. Pot is boring. It just made me laugh uncontrollably the one time I tried it.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

If you have to even ask this question you're better suited working in taco Bell

Sir, I think you are a taco.

Originally Posted by throwawayaccoun

What happens if you fail your schools drug test by testing positive for marijuana? You acceptance gets taken back? Does anyone know anyone who has smoked or does smoke in medical school? What about residency? What about later in their career? I haven't smoked in over half a year, but I was just wanting to find out what happens if you do fail. Also, I hope to get some honest answers about marijuana usage in the medical field. Don't forget, its easy to be anonymous on the internet.

If you haven't smoked in half a year, you are clean, don't worry.

Lots of people do it, in med school and beyond. The vast majority of them never get caught or have any troubles.

If you fail a drug test, I am not sure what will happen, but it probably would be pretty severe consequences. Could be expulsion, could be less severe, but they aren't testing you to get statistics on your pot use...

If you have a criminal drug offense on your record, that is a whole other story, as that can prevent you from being licensed to prescribe medications. Can't be a practicing doctor if you can't prescribe medications.....

Call me risk averse, but it isn't worth it to me. I have no moral opposition to pot use, but the benefits don't come close to outweighing the potential problems if you are unlucky. I would probably try it if it were legal, but short of that, not worth it.

Now, there are LOTS of people who do use it regularly, without any legal or performance issues, so it is up to you to decide whether the risk is worth it.

Originally Posted by tantacles

sir, i think you are a taco.

+1

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

If you have to even ask this question you're better suited working in taco Bell

I'm sorry sir, can you elaborate on which specific question gives you evidence to make that kind of deduction?

Originally Posted by theseeker4

If you haven't smoked in half a year, you are clean, don't worry.

Lots of people do it, in med school and beyond. The vast majority of them never get caught or have any troubles.

If you fail a drug test, I am not sure what will happen, but it probably would be pretty severe consequences. Could be expulsion, could be less severe, but they aren't testing you to get statistics on your pot use...

If you have a criminal drug offense on your record, that is a whole other story, as that can prevent you from being licensed to prescribe medications. Can't be a practicing doctor if you can't prescribe medications.....

Call me risk averse, but it isn't worth it to me. I have no moral opposition to pot use, but the benefits don't come close to outweighing the potential problems if you are unlucky. I would probably try it if it were legal, but short of that, not worth it.

Now, there are LOTS of people who do use it regularly, without any legal or performance issues, so it is up to you to decide whether the risk is worth it.

Thanks for the response. I'm not worried about not passing the drug test, just curious what would happen to one who did. So there are no more drug testing throughout medical school once you get in? I just don't see how drinking is such a big part of the medical school culture, but marijuana is so frowned upon. I guess because it is illegal.... I just think drinking would more negatively effect me than smoking.

Originally Posted by tantacles

sir, i think you are a taco.

+1

Originally Posted by throwawayaccoun

I'm sorry sir, can you elaborate on which specific question gives you evidence to make that kind of deduction?



Thanks for the response. I'm not worried about not passing the drug test, just curious what would happen to one who did. So there are no more drug testing throughout medical school once you get in? I just don't see how drinking is such a big part of the medical school culture, but marijuana is so frowned upon. I guess because it is illegal.... I just think drinking would more negatively effect me than smoking.

I wouldn't say marijuana ISN'T a big part of med school culture for certain groups. I am sure it is. As far as drug testing, there may be. I don't know myself, but I have heard of hospitals that require them before rotating at that hospital. I have no clue how common this is, or what schools are associated with these hospitals. As far as drinking having more of a negative impact, that is probably true.

Originally Posted by throwawayaccoun

Thanks for the response. I'm not worried about not passing the drug test, just curious what would happen to one who did. So there are no more drug testing throughout medical school once you get in? I just don't see how drinking is such a big part of the medical school culture, but marijuana is so frowned upon. I guess because it is illegal.... I just think drinking would more negatively effect me than smoking.

How much your school and residency drug test is entirely up to them, it varies by school. I don't think many of them drug test that often. The consequences are also up to them.

Originally Posted by throwawayaccoun

I'm sorry sir, can you elaborate on which specific question gives you evidence to make that kind of deduction?



Thanks for the response. I'm not worried about not passing the drug test, just curious what would happen to one who did. So there are no more drug testing throughout medical school once you get in? I just don't see how drinking is such a big part of the medical school culture, but marijuana is so frowned upon. I guess because it is illegal.... I just think drinking would more negatively effect me than smoking.

Dope smokers shouldnt take care of patients. Do I need to spell it out for you? Recreational MJ use is illegal and if you're caught you will lose your license to practice. If you're having pause to weigh in your mind on one the one hand giving up marijuanna vs circumventing federal law to persist your drug habit then do something else.

Id say a good 25% of my class smokes on a regular basis. As far as drug tests go: it is pretty unlikely theyd give you the boot at most schools. More than likely youd be forced to go to some drug class etc. In fact I met a columbia dental student who tested pos for marijuana and ended up having to take some sort of class. Medical education isnt about giving people the boot over everything. The threat of expulsion over drug issues virtually ensures someone who has a problem isnt going to come forward to be treated for their issue. Granted Ive never met someone who finds weed to be a problem in their life lol.

Either way, smoking on occasion isnt going to be a huge issue unless you let it get out of control. Just dont be stupid!

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Dope smokers shouldnt take care of patients. Do I need to spell it out for you? Recreational MJ use is illegal and if you're caught you will lose your license to practice. If you're having pause to weigh in your mind on one the one hand giving up marijuanna vs circumventing federal law to persist your drug habit then do something else.

I lol'd.

OP, I would be surprised if your school does drug tests during the preclinical years. While you're on the wards there's absolutely no excuse for ANY kind of drug use. Depending on the situation I imagine you could be expelled, especially while under the influence while in the hospital. Even failing a random drug test would likely cause you huge problems. It's mot worth it.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Dope smokers shouldnt take care of patients. Do I need to spell it out for you? Recreational MJ use is illegal and if you're caught you will lose your license to practice. If you're having pause to weigh in your mind on one the one hand giving up marijuanna vs circumventing federal law to persist your drug habit then do something else.

nothing about this is true.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Dope smokers shouldnt take care of patients. Do I need to spell it out for you?

Did you just hitch a ride with Marty McMfly on his time machine from 1955?

Regardless, give up the herb and chase your dreams homie (OP, not reefer madness quoted above). That said, MJ use is the least of the substance abuse problems seen amongst physicians out there.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Dope smokers shouldnt take care of patients. Do I need to spell it out for you? Recreational MJ use is illegal and if you're caught you will lose your license to practice. If you're having pause to weigh in your mind on one the one hand giving up marijuanna vs circumventing federal law to persist your drug habit then do something else.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by willen101383

Id say a good 25% of my class smokes on a regular basis. As far as drug tests go: it is pretty unlikely theyd give you the boot at most schools. More than likely youd be forced to go to some drug class etc. In fact I met a columbia dental student who tested pos for marijuana and ended up having to take some sort of class. Medical education isnt about giving people the boot over everything. The threat of expulsion over drug issues virtually ensures someone who has a problem isnt going to come forward to be treated for their issue. Granted Ive never met someone who finds weed to be a problem in their life lol.

Either way, smoking on occasion isnt going to be a huge issue unless you let it get out of control. Just dont be stupid!

Thanks for the response. Yeah, I don't plan on partaking as much as I did in undergrad, but I was just wondering if I was putting my career in jeopardy for smoking a blunt after a test. I for sure will not be stupid about it!

Originally Posted by NickNaylor

I lol'd.

OP, I would be surprised if your school does drug tests during the preclinical years. While you're on the wards there's absolutely no excuse for ANY kind of drug use. Depending on the situation I imagine you could be expelled, especially while under the influence while in the hospital. Even failing a random drug test would likely cause you huge problems. It's mot worth it.

Thanks for the response. Oh yeah, I was in no way planning on being high during work or anything, just maybe in the privacy of my home after a long day or after a test. I don't think that would be harmful.

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

nothing about this is true.

But..but...its illegal!

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Dope smokers shouldnt take care of patients. Do I need to spell it out for you? Recreational MJ use is illegal and if you're caught you will lose your license to practice. If you're having pause to weigh in your mind on one the one hand giving up marijuanna vs circumventing federal law to persist your drug habit then do something else.

You sound like you'd be a real fun person to party with

In all seriousness though, while your advice isn't "wrong" per se, it is misguided. First of all the legality of a behavior is in no way tied to it the morality of using a certain substance or doing said behavior. Many people in my class smoke MJ (like 30-40%) and many of the residents at various different hospitals I've rotated at do as well. This has absolutely NO bearing on their performance in class or in clinical situations. In fact, the people in medical school and residents that smoke, tend to be the brighter of the bunch, anecdotally obviously. Just like you would be smart enough not to show up to work after drinking, people use the same judgement in terms of smoking pot as well. You'd be eliminating a pretty good portion of medical students, residents and practicing physicians from performing their duties if "dope smokers shouldn't take care of patients." Let people do what they want to do on their free time. Who cares. It is guaranteed that drinking heavily the not before a shift we leave you much more "hazy" then smoking a joint the night before. You're extremely naive (yes I realize you're an attending) with your attitude on using marijuana.

To answer the OP's question, some schools drug test, some hospitals require a drug test and its best that you absolutely do whatever you can to not risk failing that. So I agree that you should be careful until you know exactly where you'll be going and whether or not you'll be drug tested. From my experience though, there isn't much random drug testing and you're often given ample notice in advance if you'll be drug tested. Most normal sized individuals who smoke mild to moderate amounts of pot can clear it from their system in 3-4 wks or sooner. Sometimes in as little as 10 days. You can always buy a home drug test kit from CVS for $15 or go to your PCP and ask for a UTOX because you want to make sure you'll be clear if you get tested for school.

Originally Posted by Dharma

Did you just hitch a ride with Marty McMfly on his time machine from 1955?

Regardless, give up the herb and chase your dreams homie (OP, not reefer madness quoted above). That said, MJ use is the least of the substance abuse problems seen amongst physicians out there.

Not worth the risk of finding out, IMO!

Nvm

you probably will not get tested until clinical rotations and residency/working with patients. At that point, its not worth finding out what they will do to you for a positive result.

Originally Posted by pre med 2014

you probably will not get tested until clinical rotations and residency/working with patients. At that point, its not worth finding out what they will do to you for a positive result.

Regardless of what happens the result will NOT be good. Just do what you want, if it means smoking a blunt after tests, go right ahead. Just make sure you know your schools policy on drug testing, if they even do it at all.

Originally Posted by whoknows2012

You sound like you'd be a real fun person to party with

In all seriousness though, while your advice isn't "wrong" per se, it is misguided. First of all the legality of a behavior is in no way tied to it the morality of using a certain substance or doing said behavior. Many people in my class smoke MJ (like 30-40%) and many of the residents at various different hospitals I've rotated at do as well. This has absolutely NO bearing on their performance in class or in clinical situations. In fact, the people in medical school and residents that smoke, tend to be the brighter of the bunch, anecdotally obviously. Just like you would be smart enough not to show up to work after drinking, people use the same judgement in terms of smoking pot as well. You'd be eliminating a pretty good portion of medical students, residents and practicing physicians from performing their duties if "dope smokers shouldn't take care of patients." Let people do what they want to do on their free time. Who cares. It is guaranteed that drinking heavily the not before a shift we leave you much more "hazy" then smoking a joint the night before. You're extremely naive (yes I realize you're an attending) with your attitude on using marijuana.

To answer the OP's question, some schools drug test, some hospitals require a drug test and its best that you absolutely do whatever you can to not risk failing that. So I agree that you should be careful until you know exactly where you'll be going and whether or not you'll be drug tested. From my experience though, there is no random drug testing and you're often given ample notice in advance if you'll be drug tested. Most normal sized individuals who smoke mild to moderate amounts of pot can clear it from their system in 3-4 wks or sooner. Sometimes in as little as 10 days. You can always buy a home drug test kit from CVS for $15 or go to your PCP and ask for a UTOX because you want to make sure you'll be clear if you get tested for school.

Its you who are naive. Atleast at my school we signed a code of conduct for personal and professional behavior, and then beyond that when training and/or practicing you sign contracts that you agree to an ethical and moral standard of behavior. State medical licenses include statements in which you agree to abide by the law and disclose/ address substance abuse. In your hospital privileging credentials you will agree to not use drugs. If you get a DUI you have to report that to the medical board and there wil be repercussions if a pattern of behavior ensues. This applies IN and OUT of school, while at the hospital, the clinic or out anywhere. Its vanishingly uncommon for a doctor or anyone with a substance abuse issue for it not to affect their work and only be an personal hobby on the side. Out of a class of 150 or so I dont recall knowing anyone who did more than drank on occasion. Taking care of other persons in the time of their greatest vulnerabilty and with their life potentially at stake demands the highest standards of character. You havent seen the personal destruction from drug use and watched people harmed or discussed cases on state medical board panels which involve physician impairment. But OP why dont you walk into your med school interviews and be sure to ask if I get accepted here how often will you drug test me so I can skirt around the rules and continue smoking illegal drugs. Im sure you wont be doing that since you know in your own way its wrong and you have to keep it a secret. A better caliber person deserves that seat.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Its you who are naive. Atleast at my school we signed a code of conduct for personal and professional behavior, and then beyond that when training and/or practicing you sign contracts that you agree to an ethical and moral standard of behavior. State medical licenses include statements in which you agree to abide by the law and disclose/ address substance abuse. In your hospital privileging credentials you will agree to not use drugs. If you get a DUI you have to report that to the medical board and there wil be repercussions if a pattern of behavior ensues. This applies IN and OUT of school, while at the hospital, the clinic or out anywhere. Its vanishingly uncommon for a doctor or anyone with a substance abuse issue for it not to affect their work and only be an personal hobby on the side. Out of a class of 150 or so I dont recall knowing anyone who did more than drank on occasion. Taking care of other persons in the time of their greatest vulnerabilty and with their life potentially at stake demands the highest standards of character. You havent seen the personal destruction from drug use and watched people harmed or discussed cases on state medical board panels which involve physician impairment. But OP why dont you walk into your med school interviews and be sure to ask if I get accepted here how often will you drug test me so I can skirt around the rules and continue smoking illegal drugs. Im sure you wont be doing that since you know in your own way its wrong and you have to keep it a secret. A better caliber person deserves that seat.

So is your biggest qualm the legality of it or it interfering with your work?

Its the point of the thread to probe what you might/may be able to get away with. If you've overcome past drug use and its behind you thats different. You're coming in here asking what does it take to avoid getting caught and how many times/ when do you get tested attests to a deceitful manner and a proclivity to be irresponsible.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Its the point of the thread to probe what you might/may be able to get away with. If you've overcome past drug use and its behind you thats different. You're coming in here asking what does it take to avoid getting caught and how many times/ when do you get tested attests to a deceitful manner and a proclivity to be irresponsible.

1. I don't believe he was trying to find a way to get away with it.
2. The laws you keep referring to are very vague and in some places are at odds with themselves. In other places they are considered misdemeanors and not felonies as you seem to think they are.
3. If you test positive no one is going to revoke your license after one time. Repeatedly yes, but you will probably be offered the option of rehab before getting fired.
4. We are talking about a substance that could possibly be legal in the future. It's not heroin so tone down the rhetoric.

I do not smoke pot (if you were thinking about writing off what I say on that basis).

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Its the point of the thread to probe what you might/may be able to get away with. If you've overcome past drug use and its behind you thats different. You're coming in here asking what does it take to avoid getting caught and how many times/ when do you get tested attests to a deceitful manner and a proclivity to be irresponsible.

I believe you misunderstood me. If you read my OP, I did not ask anything about how often drug test are or how to avoid getting caught. In fact, I never have asked how to avoid getting caught. I don't know where you got that from. In fact, I even said I haven't smoked in half a year in my OP. I think it was a bit premature, not to mention condescending, for you to say that I am better suited be working at Taco Bell.

yea I would argue pretty strongly that smoking weed is considerably healthier, both for your mind, body, and overall "character" than drinking. Condemning pot smokers while partying and getting messed up (even rarely) is incredibly hypocritical.

Originally Posted by ppfizenm

1. I don't believe he was trying to find a way to get away with it.
2. The laws you keep referring to are very vague and in some places are at odds with themselves. In other places they are considered misdemeanors and not felonies as you seem to think they are.
3. If you test positive no one is going to revoke your license after one time. Repeatedly yes, but you will probably be offered the option of rehab before getting fired.
4. We are talking about a substance that could possibly be legal in the future. It's not heroin so tone down the rhetoric.

I do not smoke pot (if you were thinking about writing off what I say on that basis).

Does anyone know anyone who has smoked or does smoke in medical school? What about residency? What about later in their career? I haven't smoked in over half a year, but I was just wanting to find out what happens if you do fail.

The OP is asking about implications of drug use entering, within and beyond medical school. Having myself participated and served my state medical board reveiwing applications, reinstatements, sanctions and restrictions for misconduct- often a drug-related issue, let me inform you of the facts since you've yet done any of those things yet still shoot your mouth off. Marijuanna is illegal now. Period. Its not vague at all. Nor are the questions on your state medical license applications- do you use drugs YES or NO. Few states have medical use cards but as I dont work in such a state, I cant say for certain, but I would be surprised if a working MD would be permitted privileges anywhere using marijuana even with a card. These cards are BS anyway and everyone knows the majority of people are purposefully circumventing the law to get high under the excuse of a phantom medical problem. Its bad enough we have jackasses in our profession making money hand over foot prescribing these cards with little/ no basis. Medical practice is emotionally, mentally and physically demanding work. Its not a place for people with drug problems. Its a profession, not like working at Burger King where you may get "fired" for doing something wrong. If you are not at your best at all times than other people will get harmed. A drug/DUI offense is a significant black mark on a professional application that will deny you licenses, privileges, etc etc. Its an enormous privilege to be trusted with the care of a person. The patient, their family, the whole healthcare team are expecting their doctor to be of sound mind and character to provide the highest standards. If one has to mull over whether they can give up drugs or not- you're not fit. Just stay out of our field. I want colleagues that least of all stay clean and obey the law.

also comparing smoking weed and getting a DUI is absolutely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by throwawayaccoun

I believe you misunderstood me. If you read my OP, I did not ask anything about how often drug test are or how to avoid getting caught. In fact, I never have asked how to avoid getting caught. I don't know where you got that from. In fact, I even said I haven't smoked in half a year in my OP. I think it was a bit premature, not to mention condescending, for you to say that I am better suited be working at Taco Bell.

Just ignore him.

A good quarter of my class smokes on a regular basis (that I know of). I've also heard of older students partaking, though no third years that are out on the wards. It's not taboo by any means, and during the pre-clinical years I doubt you'll run into any issues. Just be smart about it (as you've mentioned). Ask about your school's drug policy before classes begin just so that you're clear.

Also keep in mind that the likelihood that weed will be legalized is increasing with every year it seems. By the time this becomes an "issue" for you it could very well not be an issue any further.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Dope smokers shouldnt take care of patients. Do I need to spell it out for you? Recreational MJ use is illegal and if you're caught you will lose your license to practice. If you're having pause to weigh in your mind on one the one hand giving up marijuanna vs circumventing federal law to persist your drug habit then do something else.

Smoking marijuana on one's free time is despicable and immoral, but getting drunk is perfectly fine.

So Sirenomelia what do you think about alcohol? I mean honestly what somebody does when they're off is their business. If you're concerned about the effects of drug usage on performance, how about sleep deprivation? Legalize everything, end the nanny state.

my favorite past time is watching my friends get high and see what stupid thing comes out of their mouths. It's hilarious how deep they think they are. I personally couldn't care less about weed, or alcohol for that matter, it stinks and tastes bitter respectively.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

So Sirenomelia what do you think about alcohol? I mean honestly what somebody does when they're off is their business. If you're concerned about the effects of drug usage on performance, how about sleep deprivation? Legalize everything, end the nanny state.

Alcohol is not illegal. I dont make the rules. It is a double standard. Ive said that in other threads. Alcoholism among medical professionals is a much bigger problem than other drugs. However ANY recreational use of marijuanna is illegal by federal law.
Yeah it sucks you have to play by the rules in life whether you agree with them or not. Its called being an adult. I cant count how many times a day I have to follow protocol and cross the T's and dot the I's whether I like to or not. 1/4 your class on pot? I call BS. So its ok year 1 and 2. And the patient contact that happens there what of that? Then in clinicals it becomes wrong NIck Naylor? That makes no sense. YOu either abide by the law/rules or you dont.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Alcohol is not illegal. I dont make the rules. It is a double standard. Ive said that in other threads. Alcoholism among medical professionals is a much bigger problem than other drugs. However ANY recreational use of marijuanna is illegal by federal law.
Yeah it sucks you have to play by the rules in life whether you agree with them or not. Its called being an adult. I cant count how many times a day I have to follow protocol and cross the T's and dot the I's whether I like to or not. 1/4 your class on pot? I call BS. So its ok year 1 and 2. And the patient contact that happens there what of that? Then in clinicals it becomes wrong NIck Naylor? That makes no sense. YOu either abide by the law/rules or you dont.

Obeying every rule someone sets for you without considering the reason for the rule or the consequences of your actions isn't what makes an adult. Actually, its very much what makes a good child.

And lets be honest, you don't follow all the rules. You Jaywalk. You speed. You have taken the occasional piece of paperwork out of the hospital, or spoken about a patient at a crowded nursing station, despite your actions not living up to the letter of HIPPA. You tape things to the wall knowing full well that you'll need to take them down at the next JCAHO inspection because you're not supposed to tape anything to any walls. You just think that THIS rule should be followed to the letter. Which is fine, except that you haven't provided any reason why.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Alcohol is not illegal. I dont make the rules. It is a double standard. Ive said that in other threads. Alcoholism among medical professionals is a much bigger problem than other drugs. However ANY recreational use of marijuanna is illegal by federal law.
Yeah it sucks you have to play by the rules in life whether you agree with them or not. Its called being an adult. I cant count how many times a day I have to follow protocol and cross the T's and dot the I's whether I like to or not. 1/4 your class on pot? I call BS. So its ok year 1 and 2. And the patient contact that happens there what of that? Then in clinicals it becomes wrong NIck Naylor? That makes no sense. YOu either abide by the law/rules or you dont.

I think the usage is a big factor in determining how "ok" it is. Abuse of anything is bad. Marijuana, alcohol, playing video games, even working out. Yes it is illegal. So is jaywalking. But I don't think anyone is suggesting being high during patient contact or during working hours at all. A high last from 1 hour to 3, maybe 4 hours max. I don't see how that hurts anything if its after hours. But maybe that's just me.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

Alcohol is not illegal. I dont make the rules. It is a double standard. Ive said that in other threads. Alcoholism among medical professionals is a much bigger problem than other drugs. However ANY recreational use of marijuanna is illegal by federal law.
Yeah it sucks you have to play by the rules in life whether you agree with them or not. Its called being an adult. I cant count how many times a day I have to follow protocol and cross the T's and dot the I's whether I like to or not. 1/4 your class on pot? I call BS. So its ok year 1 and 2. And the patient contact that happens there what of that? Then in clinicals it becomes wrong NIck Naylor? That makes no sense. YOu either abide by the law/rules or you dont.

Being an adult? It's called the state overstepping it's bounds; I don't smoke, I don't see any real appeal in it to be honest, however it should be an individuals decision. The reality is that "playing by the rules" isn't necessarily a good thing. The law has been clearly wrong on numerous occasions, whether you want to look at sodomy laws, abortion laws, anti-miscegenation laws and de jure segragation; if you "were just following orders" and followed the law or supported it then you have issues. You sit on a state board, you do have the power to use discretion.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

Obeying every rule someone sets for you without considering the reason for the rule or the consequences of your actions isn't what makes an adult. Actually, its very much what makes a good child.

And lets be honest, you don't follow all the rules. You Jaywalk. You speed. You have taken the occasional piece of paperwork out of the hospital, or spoken about a patient at a crowded nursing station, despite your actions not living up to the letter of HIPPA. You tape things to the wall knowing full well that you'll need to take them down at the next JCAHO inspection because you're not supposed to tape anything to any walls. You just think that THIS rule should be followed to the letter. Which is fine, except that you haven't provided any reason why.

If you cant distinguish between everyday common sense and using illegal drugs then I dont have anything to add.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

I dont have anything to add.

ftfy

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

If you cant distinguish between everyday common sense and using illegal drugs then I dont have anything to add.

How about legal ones then? Alcohol I would argue is much more destructive than is marijuana, how about tobacco?

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

If you cant distinguish between everyday common sense and using illegal drugs then I dont have anything to add.

Common sense about rules is basically two calculations:

1) What are the likely natural/ethical consequences of breaking this rule

and

2) What are the likely institutional/legal consequences of breaking this rule.

That's why you think that breaking the rule about speeding, another rule put in place to save lives, is 'common sense', just like you know that not going 110 MPH in a school zone at 8 a.m. is also common sense. So what about drug use?

When using illegal drugs:

1) Are there natural consequences of not following the rules? Heroin, yes, terrible consequences. That's what, despite the fact that my school doesn't regularly test for opiates, no one does Heroin. MJ? There's a long term cancer risk,and some people feel in impair their study habits, but most can clearly can use it long term without any serious social or physical consequences, or at least no more consequences that those who use alcohol for their recreation. Ethically its kinda neutral: its recreational, so is not exactly a civil right, but neither is it harmful.

2) Are there legal/institutional consequences? Depends on your location. Obviously anyone in a military residency would be an idiot to do drugs, since the piss test you regularly, with no notice, and have a zero tolerance policy for drug use. Medical school in Louisiana? The state considers it a misdemeanor, and the school doesn't test (at all) so what are the consequences that we're afraid of exactly?

argument: weed is bad cause its illegal

response: uh what about other things that are illegal but clearly aren't bad?

counter-response: don't be stupid

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

Being an adult? It's called the state overstepping it's bounds; I don't smoke, I don't see any real appeal in it to be honest, however it should be an individuals decision. The reality is that "playing by the rules" isn't necessarily a good thing. The law has been clearly wrong on numerous occasions, whether you want to look at sodomy laws, abortion laws, anti-miscegenation laws and de jure segragation; if you "were just following orders" and followed the law or supported it then you have issues. You sit on a state board, you do have the power to use discretion.

In this instance, this discretion you are referring to, please tell me how not using marijuanna is a bad thing. But go ahead. Ive seen this same line of argument used by others to justify (or attempt to) everything from inappropriate relationships between doctors and consenting patients to medicare fraud. This- 'if it doesnt seem wrong to me then I should be able to do it'.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

How about legal ones then? Alcohol I would argue is much more destructive than is marijuana, how about tobacco?

cigarettes are stupid but they're not illegal either.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

In this instance, this discretion you are referring to, please tell me how not using marijuanna is a bad thing. But go ahead. Ive seen this same line of argument used by others to justify (or attempt to) everything from inappropriate relationships between doctors and consenting patients to medicare fraud. This- 'if it doesnt seem wrong to me then I should be able to do it'.

He's countering your point that weed should be condemned because of its legality. You stated that alcohol isn't illegal, thats why its different from marijuana. He's showing that legality is not enough to condemn something, as many things have been illegal that are not bad. You either need to address that point or give some other reason why weed is as bad as you make it seem.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

In this instance, this discretion you are referring to, please tell me how not using marijuanna is a bad thing. But go ahead. Ive seen this same line of argument used by others to justify (or attempt to) everything from inappropriate relationships between doctors and consenting patients to medicare fraud. This- 'if it doesnt seem wrong to me then I should be able to do it'.

If someone uses it occasionally and it doesn't impair functioning when they need to function, where is the harm? It's essentially analogous to alcohol, recreational use doesn't have a negative impact. I'm of the opinion that if you want to do something and it doesn't harm anyone else why should it be illegal? I disagree that this is comparable to fraud and I don't see why a consenting relationship should be an issue. Basically you come across as a Puritanical individual, where you feel the state should regulate morality. That simply doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

Common sense about rules is basically two calculations:

1) What are the likely natural/ethical consequences of breaking this rule

and

2) What are the likely institutional/legal consequences of breaking this rule.

That's why you think that breaking the rule about speeding, another rule put in place to save lives, is 'common sense', just like you know that not going 110 MPH in a school zone at 8 a.m. is also common sense. So what about drug use?

When using illegal drugs:

1) Are there natural consequences of not following the rules? Heroin, yes, terrible consequences. That's what, despite the fact that my school doesn't regularly test for opiates, no one does Heroin. MJ? There's a long term cancer risk,and some people feel in impair their study habits, but most can clearly can use it long term without any serious social or physical consequences, or at least no more consequences that those who use alcohol for their recreation. Ethically its kinda neutral: its recreational, so is not exactly a civil right, but neither is it harmful.

2) Are there legal/institutional consequences? Depends on your location. Obviously anyone in a military residency would be an idiot to do drugs, since the piss test you regularly, with no notice, and have a zero tolerance policy for drug use. Medical school in Louisiana? The state considers it a misdemeanor, and the school doesn't test (at all) so what are the consequences that we're afraid of exactly?

And how do you know this? What basis can you back this up. There's no support or data to prove that professionals that get high on their own time over the long run are not detrimentally affected cognitively, judgement-wise, or that patients are affected or not affected. No one's ever going to admit to drug use so thats not going to be proven or known.

Originally Posted by sirenomelia

cigarettes are stupid but they're not illegal either.

But something being stupid doesn't mean it should be illegal. It's stupid to go biking without a helmet, but it's not illegal. Legality doesn't fundamentally change the ultimate issue whether an action is right or wrong. The best way to view whether an action is right or wrong is to ask does it involve the use of force or fraud and does it cause harm to others. Marijuana use doesn't seem to meet that.

Originally Posted by FutureCTDoc

If someone uses it occasionally and it doesn't impair functioning when they need to function, where is the harm? It's essentially analogous to alcohol, recreational use doesn't have a negative impact. I'm of the opinion that if you want to do something and it doesn't harm anyone else why should it be illegal? I disagree that this is comparable to fraud and I don't see why a consenting relationship should be an issue. Basically you come across as a Puritanical individual, where you feel the state should regulate morality. That simply doesn't work.

O boy. Yeah you have alot to learn. Lets leave it at that.