Doctor-Doctor Marriages

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I'm sure there's threads on this, but I'm too lazy to look. With all the similarly ****ty threads recently, I just don't feel bad.

We just had a thread about surgery hours and living a family life. How in the world do doctor/doctor marriages work especially with kids and all that fun stuff?

They don't....

Good luck raising your kids.

[QUOTE=JP2740;12458199]I'm sure there's threads on this, but I'm too lazy to look. With all the similarly ****ty threads recently, I just don't feel bad.

We just had a thread about surgery hours and living a family life. How in the world do doctor/doctor marriages work especially with kids and all that fun stuff?[/QUOTE]

You can't have it all, but you can try*



*results may vary

Do physician marriages (or open relationships) work?

"No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us."

Dr. Tobias Funke

It does work because it has worked for me for years, the key is really not being in surgery that is what makes it damn near impossible.

Plenty of people do it. I would imagine it takes a bit of luck and a strong relationship. Most of the doctor-doctor marriages I have seen had one or both doctors in a job that was relatively benign as far as hours go...large peds group practice, family medicine, derm, etc, or one working part time. I'm sure it's possible, but something like 2 neurosurgeons + kids seems to be asking for divorce and messed up children.

Originally Posted by dr zaius

Plenty of people do it. I would imagine it takes a bit of luck and a strong relationship. Most of the doctor-doctor marriages I have seen had one or both doctors in a job that was relatively benign as far as hours go...large peds group practice, family medicine, derm, etc, or one working part time. I'm sure it's possible, but something like 2 neurosurgeons + kids seems to be asking for divorce and messed up children.

lol that sounds like a good reality show (that I wouldn't watch).

My peds attending was married to a NICU doc. They've been married at least 20 years and had 6 or 7 kids. I'm not sure if she (NICU) worked full time or not when the kids were younger.

During our school's 'foundations in medicine' course they actually had a lesson on physician relationships where they showed the divorce rates for doctors. What wasn't surprising was that the divorce rates for physicians were insanely high. What was surprising was exception to the rule: when a physician married another physician. Two doctor marriages actually have a divorce rate no higher than the national average, WAY better than the divorce rate for a physician married to a non physician.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

During our school's 'foundations in medicine' course they actually had a lesson on physician relationships where they showed the divorce rates for doctors. What wasn't surprising was that the divorce rates for physicians were insanely high. What was k]surprising was exception to the rule: when a physician married another physician. Two doctor marriages actually have a divorce rate no higher than the national average, WAY better than the divorce rate for a physician married to a non physician.

That's pretty sweet. I guess understanding goes a long way.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

During our school's 'foundations in medicine' course they actually had a lesson on physician relationships where they showed the divorce rates for doctors. What wasn't surprising was that the divorce rates for physicians were insanely high. What was k]surprising was exception to the rule: when a physician married another physician. Two doctor marriages actually have a divorce rate no higher than the national average, WAY better than the divorce rate for a physician married to a non physician.

Epic. I am heading out to find Mrs. Dr. Smurfn right... now.

Originally Posted by Barcu

Do physician marriages (or open relationships) work?

"No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us."

Dr. Tobias Funke

The man usually works long hours (60 hrs/wk) and has a typical medical career. The woman often works part time. At least that's what my wife and I do.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

During our school's 'foundations in medicine' course they actually had a lesson on physician relationships where they showed the divorce rates for doctors. What wasn't surprising was that the divorce rates for physicians were insanely high. What was surprising was exception to the rule: when a physician married another physician. Two doctor marriages actually have a divorce rate no higher than the national average, WAY better than the divorce rate for a physician married to a non physician.

They should have looked at how the kids turned out. All money is that they will not achieve the same success as their parents.
But if two people can pull it off (working in 2 non demanding specialties/family med/general stuff) then it can work out well for the kids too.

Originally Posted by sportsperson

They should have looked at how the kids turned out. All money is that they will not achieve the same success as their parents.
But if two people can pull it off (working in 2 non demanding specialties/family med/general stuff) then it can work out well for the kids too.

I have talked to a lot of kids with doctor parents who have discouraged them from pursuing medicine. So, if the kid doesn't become a doctor you can't really compare "success" as if it is some sort of tangible variable. Some people are perfectly happy working as teachers, accountants, auditors, etc. You also have to keep in mind that kids with wealthy parents might not feel the need to pursue a high paying career. If you had generous parents and a nice inheritance lined up it might not be a big concern.

Originally Posted by michaelrack

The man usually works long hours (60 hrs/wk) and has a typical medical career. The woman often works part time. At least that's what my wife and I do.

pretty limited evidence to suggest that's what "usually" happens, eh?

Originally Posted by sportsperson

They should have looked at how the kids turned out. All money is that they will not achieve the same success as their parents.
But if two people can pull it off (working in 2 non demanding specialties/family med/general stuff) then it can work out well for the kids too.

I'm a child of 2 doctors. They encouraged us to pursue medicine. We matched in rads and Derm. They are also divorced.

Originally Posted by cowme

I'm a child of 2 doctors. They encouraged us to pursue medicine. We matched in rads and Derm. They are also divorced.

I've seen this scenario many times before, it seems to be a pretty strong trend.

Two full-time professional careers, functional/well-adapted kids, happy marriage. Pick 2. Your parents (consciously or unconsciously) picked the first two.

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

I've seen this scenario many times before, it seems to be a pretty strong trend.

Two full-time professional careers, functional/well-adapted kids, happy marriage. Pick 2. Your parents (consciously or unconsciously) picked the first two.

I've seen doctor/doctor marriages with happy kids and no divorces. The evidence suggests they divorce less often rather than more, and there's no data to suggest that they turn out screwed up kids more often than other marriages.

Part of the problem is that a completely average family has a statistically high chance of any individual kid not being terribly succesful, and a 50/50 chance of being divorced, so the odds of any family having a successful marriage and multiple successful children is pretty danged low even if they perform no worse than the national average.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

I've seen doctor/doctor marriages with happy kids and no divorces. The evidence suggests they divorce less often rather than more, and there's no data to suggest that they turn out screwed up kids more often than other marriages.

Part of the problem is that a completely average family has a statistically high chance of any individual kid not being terribly succesful, and a 50/50 chance of being divorced, so the odds of any family having a successful marriage and multiple successful children is pretty danged low even if they perform no worse than the national average.

True, although I did say "happy marriage" not "not divorced." A fairly important distinction. You're right though, the "average" American family is pretty messed up anyway, so it's hard to compare.

Don't forget the cultural aspect of it. You'd probably see much lower divorce rates amongst Indian and middle eastern doctors vs anglos.

Sent from my GT-N7000

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

True, although I did say "happy marriage" not "not divorced." A fairly important distinction. You're right though, the "average" American family is pretty messed up anyway, so it's hard to compare.

Of course the average family is messed up. In places where it isn't messed up it's simply due to less freedom and more restriction.
Here in north america, we have two reasons that lead to divorces.

1) sexually incompatibility
2) incompatibility of personalities (which leads to arguments over different things)

The first thing leads to affairs/cheating while the second thing obviously causes arguments over whatever. Unfortunately this is how human beings naturally are.

Originally Posted by sportsperson

Of course the average family is messed up. In places where it isn't messed up it's simply due to less freedom and more restriction.
Here in north america, we have two reasons that lead to divorces.

1) sexually incompatibility
2) incompatibility of personalities (which leads to arguments over different things)

The first thing leads to affairs/cheating while the second thing obviously causes arguments over whatever. Unfortunately this is how human beings naturally are.

I would argue the #1 reason for divorce is $

Originally Posted by dude1344

I would argue the #1 reason for divorce is $

That falls under number 2. Money will be based on personality. I know people making less money who have good marriages simply because they are satisfied with what they have. Then there are others who arent and just cant handle living in an apartment and start blaming the husband or whatever.

The thing is... when the money IS there, people move onto different things. Most common will be finding a new sex partner or having an affair. Think about the trophy wife banging the pool guy type of thing.

Originally Posted by sportsperson

That falls under number 2. Money will be based on personality. I know people making less money who have good marriages simply because they are satisfied with what they have. Then there are others who arent and just cant handle living in an apartment and start blaming the husband or whatever.

The thing is... when the money IS there, people move onto different things. Most common will be finding a new sex partner or having an affair. Think about the trophy wife banging the pool guy type of thing.

Sorry dude, but money problems don't fall under personality. Money problems exacerbate every other issue in the marriage and places the couple under a lot of stress. But it is not a 'personality problem.' You don't suddenly go from financially struggling to being financially solvent by simply adopting a better personality.

Money-related issues are the #1 cause of spousal conflict in this country. Bar none.

Originally Posted by amaprez

Money-related issues are the #1 cause of spousal conflict in this country. Bar none.

Agreed. I remember reading this in a couple of places. It's amazing how a lot of married couples don't discuss finances. I'd imagine that's one of the top priorities to straighten out before getting married....

Regarding the OP, I've seen doctor-doctor marriages work out. A lot of the doctors I've worked with have had long successful marriages. My sample is probably skewed though.

Originally Posted by JP2740

I'm sure there's threads on this, but I'm too lazy to look. With all the similarly ****ty threads recently, I just don't feel bad.

We just had a thread about surgery hours and living a family life. How in the world do doctor/doctor marriages work especially with kids and all that fun stuff?

Any thing work but person have to be very understanding. Other wise just argument and fight who make more money. Best thing have person who understand you.

Originally Posted by sportsperson

Good luck raising your kids.

There is no problem in raising kids. all doctors kids mainly become doctor at least in our Indian community.

[QUOTE=Brachyury;12458368]

Originally Posted by JP2740

I'm sure there's threads on this, but I'm too lazy to look. With all the similarly ****ty threads recently, I just don't feel bad.

We just had a thread about surgery hours and living a family life. How in the world do doctor/doctor marriages work especially with kids and all that fun stuff?[/QUOTE]

You can't have it all, but you can try*



*results may vary

depend what is your major in specialization?

Originally Posted by jok200

It does work because it has worked for me for years, the key is really not being in surgery that is what makes it damn near impossible.

if guy is in surgery better marry teacher .

Originally Posted by NWS

Don't forget the cultural aspect of it. You'd probably see much lower divorce rates amongst Indian and middle eastern doctors vs anglos.

Sent from my GT-N7000

And don't forget about the effect of affirmative action on physician divorce rate.

Also, is there a difference between the divorce rate for MDs and DOs?

And what if one spouse is a DNP? How does their different but equivalent training translate to performance as a spouse?

Originally Posted by Marge

And don't forget about the effect of affirmative action on physician divorce rate.

Also, is there a difference between the divorce rate for MDs and DOs?

And what if one spouse is a DNP? How does their different but equivalent training translate to performance as a spouse?

Where does my cat fit in here? Is bestiality legalized yet, or do we still need to go through gay marriage first to get there?

Originally Posted by Priti Dave

There is no problem in raising kids. all doctors kids mainly become doctor at least in our Indian community.

Your indian community does not represent north america. Are you in an indian community in the US or Canada, where there are a very large number of doctors and the large majority of them become doctors? If not, then point disregarded.

And yes there is a problem with raising kids. When you work 65 hours a week and your wife works 60 hours, your child will lack the emotional support and mental stimulation that they could have gotten had one person been home + other spouse worked less. This will most likely result in them falling short of their potential.

Originally Posted by amaprez

Sorry dude, but money problems don't fall under personality. Money problems exacerbate every other issue in the marriage and places the couple under a lot of stress. But it is not a 'personality problem.' You don't suddenly go from financially struggling to being financially solvent by simply adopting a better personality.

Money-related issues are the #1 cause of spousal conflict in this country. Bar none.

I guess yea, but I really doubt by fixing money problems that divorce rates would suddenly be fixed as well. Couples will look into other problems, etc. Also lets not forget that money is not an overall fixable issue... there's only so many jobs people can hold that pays decently.

Speaking of money... doctor marriages are bad for the kids. But if you're a male doctor (given extreme advantages in family law/family courts towards females) then you're taking a huge risk by marrying someone who (most certainly) makes less money than you IF they are not a physician. Why? Cause when the divorce does happen cause she had an affair with the pool boy, then your income is suddenly cut in half forever.

Originally Posted by sportsperson

Your indian community does not represent north america. Are you in an indian community in the US or Canada, where there are a very large number of doctors and the large majority of them become doctors? If not, then point disregarded.

And yes there is a problem with raising kids. When you work 65 hours a week and your wife works 60 hours, your child will lack the emotional support and mental stimulation that they could have gotten had one person been home + other spouse worked less. This will most likely result in them falling short of their potential.

Time out, your response clearly says that the problem lies in American culture and not so much in the type of job one has!

Anyways, I would argue that if you are a doctor YOU better be married to someone very understandable, religious, or in an equally demanding career as yours.

Originally Posted by investing101

Time out, your response clearly says that the problem lies in American culture and not so much in the type of job one has!

Anyways, I would argue that if you are a doctor YOU better be married to someone very understandable, religious, or in an equally demanding career as yours.

If docs in India are working 40 hour weeks, that alone makes a huge difference. That's just an example though, but if you're really comparing India then it is by large the culture that determines low-divorce rates.

Now as for marriage compatibility:

- very understandable? Agreed, this is absolutely crucial.

- Religious? If the wrath of god will stop her from cheating then sure. But she better be a 24/7 bible thumper cause religion isn't stopping people from doing much nowadays...except for the fundamentalists.

- Equally demanding career? Would help a lot but the risk of her having an affair still exists big time. She's stressed out and you arent there for support, but the handsome co-worker at the office is? Guess what happens next?

Originally Posted by sportsperson

If docs in India are working 40 hour weeks, that alone makes a huge difference. That's just an example though, but if you're really comparing India then it is by large the culture that determines low-divorce rates.

Now as for marriage compatibility:

- very understandable? Agreed, this is absolutely crucial.

- Religious? If the wrath of god will stop her from cheating then sure. But she better be a 24/7 bible thumper cause religion isn't stopping people from doing much nowadays...except for the fundamentalists.

- Equally demanding career? Would help a lot but the risk of her having an affair still exists big time. She's stressed out and you arent there for support, but the handsome co-worker at the office is? Guess what happens next?

I find it weird in that divorce is becoming a cultural thing more than a defined statistic. 60 years ago things were a lot different. It's like people use animal instincts instead of their head when getting married. I bet in the future there is going to be a carfax report request on spouses to be.

Originally Posted by investing101

I find it weird in that divorce is becoming a cultural thing more than a defined statistic. 60 years ago things were a lot different. It's like people use animal instincts instead of their head when getting married. I bet in the future there is going to be a carfax report request on spouses to be.

I think you know what to do. I'd invest in that company...

Originally Posted by sportsperson

- Equally demanding career? Would help a lot but the risk of her having an affair still exists big time. She's stressed out and you arent there for support, but the handsome co-worker at the office is? Guess what happens next?

This **** just makes me not want to get married

Originally Posted by JP2740

This **** just makes me not want to get married

I really wish our culture wouldn't push marriage so hard. It is most definitely not for everyone, and very unsure people getting married anyway has resulted in the flourishing of many careers in divorce law.

Originally Posted by sportsperson

And yes there is a problem with raising kids. When you work 65 hours a week and your wife works 60 hours, your child will lack the emotional support and mental stimulation that they could have gotten had one person been home + other spouse worked less. This will most likely result in them falling short of their potential.

studies? data?

I call BS, this is just the line stay at home mom's trumpet to justify their choices. If you show me some study saying that kids with parents who work x # of hours come out messed up then maybe I'll buy it.

I know tons of kids who had a parent who stayed at home or had a minimal job that let them pick their kids up from school everyday and most of those kids didn't do anything special.

my folks aren't doctors but probably both worked >60 hours a week with lots of business travel and have 4 happy and successful kids. (2 in med school, 1 in an ivy league college, 1 doing well in high school).

my mom's parents were both doctors (old school family practice in and outpatient) and also have 4 happy and successful kids (2 docs and 2 successful business people). My mom's sister is a hospitalist and her husband is a busy general surgeon, they have 4 kids who seem happy and are doing great in school.

The key is what are your priorities outside of work. Whether it was my parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents, all of these working couples spend the vast majority of their free time with their families + a lot of vacation time with their families. It won't be leave it to beaver, but I'm a firm believer that parents can work a lot and still do a good job of raising their children.

Originally Posted by Encephalectomy

studies? data?

I call BS, this is just the line stay at home mom's trumpet to justify their choices. If you show me some study saying that kids with parents who work x # of hours come out messed up then maybe I'll buy it.

I know tons of kids who had a parent who stayed at home or had a minimal job that let them pick their kids up from school everyday and most of those kids didn't do anything special.

my folks aren't doctors but probably both worked >60 hours a week with lots of business travel and have 4 happy and successful kids. (2 in med school, 1 in an ivy league college, 1 doing well in high school).

my mom's parents were both doctors (old school family practice in and outpatient) and also have 4 happy and successful kids (2 docs and 2 successful business people). My mom's sister is a hospitalist and her husband is a busy general surgeon, they have 4 kids who seem happy and are doing great in school.

The key is what are your priorities outside of work. Whether it was my parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents, all of these working couples spend the vast majority of their free time with their families + a lot of vacation time with their families. It won't be leave it to beaver, but I'm a firm believer that parents can work a lot and still do a good job of raising their children.

No one said they will come out "messed up" it was all about having maximum nurture to reach your genetic potential. Those kids who didnt end up special was simply because they werent naturally special in the first place.

Growing up in a day care and then eating processed foods all day is certainly not the best way to grow up. My mom didnt work until I was 6 and then only worked part time until I was in high school. Now she works 35 hours a week (NP). This allowed me to have nice home cooked meals daily instead of the processed/frozen crapfood other kids ate. And I think diet is one huge reason to have a mom who's home part time, until at least the kids can cook for themself.

Originally Posted by sportsperson

No one said they will come out "messed up" it was all about having maximum nurture to reach your genetic potential. Those kids who didnt end up special was simply because they werent naturally special in the first place.

Growing up in a day care and then eating processed foods all day is certainly not the best way to grow up. My mom didnt work until I was 6 and then only worked part time until I was in high school. Now she works 35 hours a week (NP). This allowed me to have nice home cooked meals daily instead of the processed/frozen crapfood other kids ate. And I think diet is one huge reason to have a mom who's home part time, until at least the kids can cook for themself.

not to make it a flame war between the two of us, but this is exactly what I was talking about. Your mom stayed home and didn't work while her kid(s) were little and told you that it was important. You subsequently turned out great, so you think that having your mom at home is important for 'reaching your genetic potential'.

Is any evidence for this? does 'maximum nurture' help people reach their 'genetic potential'?

My also non-evidence based opinion is that it doesn't. I think there is some minimum amount of nurture below which kids will probably wont do as well as they should or will have long term psychiatric fall out from, but I think it is a lot less than you think. I think that having good parenting is important for kids development, but kids can get enough of that even if they spend a decent sized chunk of each day in day care or with a nanny.

From my limited n, you can have parents that work a lot, spend some of your time growing up in day care and with nannys, and be a happy person who is very successful. I'm pretty sure that I met my 'genetic potential' as did the previously noted successful and happy people in my family.

Also I don't think it took your mom 40+ hours a week to cook for the family (though if she did I will admit to being a little jealous of your dinners).

I'd agree about processed food not being good for anybody, but in a two doctor (or equivalent) household you could afford to never eat processed food. Options include cooking on the weekend, buying cooked food (you can get a rotisserie chicken at any decent grocery store), having the nanny help with the cooking some nights, cooking meals that don't take that long to cook and having your kids eat later than most kids (my parents did all of the above), or to be honest you could even hire a chef. Processed food is about what you buy not how much time you have to prepare food.

More non-evidence. My parents always said they spent the least amount of time with me for pretty much everything, and I turned out to be the "most successful" in my family, while my oldest brother turned out to be the least (and got the most attention). I don't know....

I knew this kid A from family B, whose parents were both Cs. He turned out to be a D, therefore F. I also knew this other kid G from family H, whose dad was an I and his mom was a J. He turned out to be K, so - in addition to F - L is true too.

Originally Posted by Encephalectomy

not to make it a flame war between the two of us, but this is exactly what I was talking about. Your mom stayed home and didn't work while her kid(s) were little and told you that it was important. You subsequently turned out great, so you think that having your mom at home is important for 'reaching your genetic potential'.

Is any evidence for this? does 'maximum nurture' help people reach their 'genetic potential'?

My also non-evidence based opinion is that it doesn't. I think there is some minimum amount of nurture below which kids will probably wont do as well as they should or will have long term psychiatric fall out from, but I think it is a lot less than you think. I think that having good parenting is important for kids development, but kids can get enough of that even if they spend a decent sized chunk of each day in day care or with a nanny.

From my limited n, you can have parents that work a lot, spend some of your time growing up in day care and with nannys, and be a happy person who is very successful. I'm pretty sure that I met my 'genetic potential' as did the previously noted successful and happy people in my family.

Also I don't think it took your mom 40+ hours a week to cook for the family (though if she did I will admit to being a little jealous of your dinners).

I'd agree about processed food not being good for anybody, but in a two doctor (or equivalent) household you could afford to never eat processed food. Options include cooking on the weekend, buying cooked food (you can get a rotisserie chicken at any decent grocery store), having the nanny help with the cooking some nights, cooking meals that don't take that long to cook and having your kids eat later than most kids (my parents did all of the above), or to be honest you could even hire a chef. Processed food is about what you buy not how much time you have to prepare food.

So in other words, neither of our arguments hold enough evidence and are dismissed. Fair enough.

Well difference between me and pretty much every other kid through elementary school was that I had a warm meal at lunch time (coming home for lunch) and a warm meal after school. Other kids had cold cut meats at lunch (honestly why do people even eat this crap daily? ) and some candy probably after school.
now if we're gonna carry this argument past doctors only and look at average people (who can't afford a nanny or chef)... we see how kids nowadays are severely suffering from diet problems and will be hitting diabetes and cancer much much earlier than their parents generation.

I don't know about you, but we had hot food at our public schools. What did I do when I came home? I cooked for myself, cause mom was working.

A little teaching (to cook) goes a long way.

Originally Posted by Morsetlis

I don't know about you, but we had hot food at our public schools. What did I do when I came home? I cooked for myself, cause mom was working.

A little teaching (to cook) goes a long way.

You try the Cooks Illustrated I recommend to you yet?

From all these posts, I think there's just too many factors that influence the outcome. What it comes down to is how good the parenting skills are, and what a kid's potential is. Sure how much time a parent spend with the kid makes a little bit of a difference, but the best parent in the world with the worst kid in the world is not going to turn out a kid that wants to go to college/etc. And vice versa is true, the best kids in the world paired with the worst parents can turn out all right; they'll just have to put in a lot more effort to make up for what their parent shortchanged them on. I think it's more of a sliding scale than absolutes.

Originally Posted by colbgw02

I knew this kid A from family B, whose parents were both Cs. He turned out to be a D, therefore F. I also knew this other kid G from family H, whose dad was an I and his mom was a J. He turned out to be K, so - in addition to F - L is true too.

Bit of gossip, did you know the D from B was giving his C to the M from H?