"white African American" getting in trouble?

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Any incidence where people who define themselves as African American due to a known African Descent or being from continental Africa like Egypt. I am Egyptian and I am 100% sure that I have sub-Saharan African ancestry. Just because Egypt is politically affiliated with the middle east does not mean that they are ethnically Arab. Are there any incidences where people got DENIED medical school due to this or had their doctor licence taken away other than the dude from Mozambique.

Please post a source if possible.

Don't tell me what I should do or what you would do, I want to know what will happen if I do.

Please be nice, If you don't have anything nice to say, leave this forum. I do not want criticism, I want answers.

(people in SDN can be vultures sometimes )

Please be nice, If you don't have anything nice to say, leave this forum. I do not want criticism, I want answers.

I am currently leaving this forum.

Originally Posted by mclinkin94

Any incidence where people who define themselves as African American due to a known African Descent or being from continental Africa like Egypt. I am Egyptian and I am 100% sure that I have sub-Saharan African ancestry. Just because Egypt is politically affiliated with the middle east does not mean that they are ethnically Arab. Are there any incidences where people got DENIED medical school due to this or had their doctor licence taken away other than the dude from Mozambique.

Please post a source if possible.

Don't tell me what I should do or what you would do, I want to know what will happen if I do.

Please be nice, If you don't have anything nice to say, leave this forum. I do not want criticism, I want answers.

(people in SDN can be vultures sometimes )

I see no good reason to classify yourself as an African-American. It can only hurt you. I personally think you are white (just like people from the Middle East are considered white).

do YOU identify yourself as African American?

if yes, say you're African American
if no, say you're Caucasian or Other
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race)

it's really that simple.

Hay man, if you ain't black, den you on crack. You not teh URMz! You teh Arabz!

On a serious note, did you not begin a separate thread for this a few days ago? I believe you got your answer.

As a fellow Egyptian, I was intrigued by this post. I would say however that listing yourself as african american will likely harm you more than help you. Would you lose your license, probably not? Would people frown upon it during an interview? Probably.

Didn't you start this discussion before?

Dude, you aren't black.

I will boil things down for you:

Med schools are only being PC when they say "African American" on AMCAS... the schools want black students (i.e. physicians that will look like their patient population). They aren't looking for merely "people originating from Africa" (at least to the degree of experiencing the fabled URM-advantage).

It has everything to do with your skin color. If it was simply "oh, I am from a underrepresented location in US med schools, I get teh help?" then there would be people from Iceland and Siberia bragging on here about it.

BLACK!

You will be lol'ed at.

Originally Posted by mclinkin94

Any incidence where people who define themselves as African American due to a known African Descent or being from continental Africa like Egypt. I am Egyptian and I am 100% sure that I have sub-Saharan African ancestry. Just because Egypt is politically affiliated with the middle east does not mean that they are ethnically Arab. Are there any incidences where people got DENIED medical school due to this or had their doctor licence taken away other than the dude from Mozambique.

Please post a source if possible.

Don't tell me what I should do or what you would do, I want to know what will happen if I do.

Please be nice, If you don't have anything nice to say, leave this forum. I do not want criticism, I want answers.

(people in SDN can be vultures sometimes )

I find it intriguing how in your other thread you decided to not check the African box because it's unethical, yet now you're asking whether or not you will get in trouble if you do it.

Even if no one has heard of someone who was directly denied admissions because of a similar situation, I would still not risk it and check this box, then appear for an interview only for the committee to find that you're Egyptian. While it's true you can argue Egyptians are not Ethnically Arab, they are not ethnically Africans either.

You can still claim a disadvantaged status and you can explain why you think you're disadvantaged, The Adcom is not stupid, they know that Caucasian includes those from the Middle East AND from North Africa.

Originally Posted by me1234

As a fellow Egyptian, I was intrigued by this post. I would say however that listing yourself as african american will likely harm you more than help you. Would you lose your license, probably not? Would people frown upon it during an interview? Probably.

As an Egyptian myself, I am intrigued by your post. You cannot say that you are Arab and you cannot say that you are African, So therefore you could say both. I do not think there is anything wrong with how I call myself.

Originally Posted by Blais

Didn't you start this discussion before?

Dude, you aren't black.

I will boil things down for you:

Med schools are only being PC when they say "African American" on AMCAS... the schools want black students (i.e. physicians that will look like their patient population). They aren't looking for merely "people originating from Africa" (at least to the degree of experiencing the fabled URM-advantage).

It has everything to do with your skin color. If it was simply "oh, I am from a underrepresented location in US med schools, I get teh help?" then there would be people from Iceland and Siberia bragging on here about it.

BLACK!

You will be lol'ed at.

one of the funniest, but probably one of the most honest post i read LOL

Originally Posted by light warrior

I find it intriguing how in your other thread you decided to not check the African box because it's unethical, yet now you're asking whether or not you will get in trouble if you do it.

Even if no one has heard of someone who was directly denied admissions because of a similar situation, I would still not risk it and check this box, then appear for an interview only for the committee to find that you're Egyptian. While it's true you can argue Egyptians are not Ethnically Arab, they are not ethnically Africans either.

You can still claim a disadvantaged status and you can explain why you think you're disadvantaged, The Adcom is not stupid, they know that Caucasian includes those from the Middle East AND from North Africa.

On the bolded part of your answer, I want to add that I keep alternating between this decision. who is to deny my race? This IS me. even in the aamc website they have stats for people who picked black or African American.

I also said NOT To post things due to arrogance or jealousy because you do not have this advantage. I wanted a case in which someone was denied and all i got was criticism. I find it racist that you think I am Caucasian.

Originally Posted by mclinkin94

On the bolded part of your answer, I want to add that I keep alternating between this decision. who is to deny my race? This IS me. even in the aamc website they have stats for people who picked black or African American.

I also said NOT To post things due to arrogance or jealousy because you do not have this advantage. I wanted a case in which someone was denied and all i got was criticism. I find it racist that you think I am Caucasian.

Somebody call the WAAAAAAAMbulance

Originally Posted by Blais

Didn't you start this discussion before?

Dude, you aren't black.

I will boil things down for you:

Med schools are only being PC when they say "African American" on AMCAS... the schools want black students (i.e. physicians that will look like their patient population). They aren't looking for merely "people originating from Africa" (at least to the degree of experiencing the fabled URM-advantage).

It has everything to do with your skin color. If it was simply "oh, I am from a underrepresented location in US med schools, I get teh help?" then there would be people from Iceland and Siberia bragging on here about it.

BLACK!

You will be lol'ed at.

This x100000

Originally Posted by mclinkin94

On the bolded part of your answer, I want to add that I keep alternating between this decision. who is to deny my race? This IS me. even in the aamc website they have stats for people who picked black or African American.

I also said NOT To post things due to arrogance or jealousy because you do not have this advantage. I wanted a case in which someone was denied and all i got was criticism. I find it racist that you think I am Caucasian.

Um, YOU said in your other thread that you were a Caucasian male. YOU SAID THAT. If you identify as a Caucasian male, you should click the Caucasian box. Enough said. You are clearly trying as hard as you can to get an advantage that was intended for a different group of people who actually ARE underrepresented in medicine.

Originally Posted by mclinkin94

Any incidence where people who define themselves as African American due to a known African Descent or being from continental Africa like Egypt. I am Egyptian and I am 100% sure that I have sub-Saharan African ancestry. Just because Egypt is politically affiliated with the middle east does not mean that they are ethnically Arab. Are there any incidences where people got DENIED medical school due to this or had their doctor licence taken away other than the dude from Mozambique.

Please post a source if possible.

Don't tell me what I should do or what you would do, I want to know what will happen if I do.

Please be nice, If you don't have anything nice to say, leave this forum. I do not want criticism, I want answers.

(people in SDN can be vultures sometimes )

Yes, there have been cases where students who listed themselves as African American, for the reasons you described, have been accused of academic dishonesty. I remember reading about one case where a white student from Africa was not only denied an acceptance, he was accused of academic dishonesty at his home institution.

Being denied an acceptance is harder to prove, but I would guess more common. Remember your application only gets you an interview... with someone who is looking at your application. If someone showed up in my office with 'african American' marked on his application and snowy white features I would reject him out of hand.

One of my classmates did this (Egyptian, self-designated as African-American), and got a 50% scholarship. I heard this right from the individual.

You're not black, dude. If you don't believe me go and try saying n-word around bunch of black people and see what happens.

If you honestly, truly felt you were African American and identified with the culture then you wouldn't be having such a dilemma. You have identified yourself as Caucasian previously but even that aside your hesitancy to put it shows you must know to some extent it's not an accurate representation of who you are. Check other and put Egyptian, and then put that you're economically disadvantaged. If you put African American and show up and do not fit because of your features, you will regret it. I once heard of a guy who was Caucasian with a little bit of Mexican, put he was Mexican American and was told to leave the interview for being dishonest.

Just check other and type in Egyptian.

Originally Posted by TheProwler

One of my classmates did this (Egyptian, self-designated as African-American), and got a 50% scholarship. I heard this right from the individual.

were they from south egypt/northern sudan region? There are black egyptians. I think they are called Nubians...

Originally Posted by SunsFun

You're not black, dude. If you don't believe me go and try saying n-word around bunch of black people and see what happens.

Oh yeah, that's definitely a black thing. We all say it all the time to each other.

Originally Posted by TheProwler

One of my classmates did this (Egyptian, self-designated as African-American), and got a 50% scholarship. I heard this right from the individual.

Yes, OP, as I told you in another thread. Check off that you are African American. Don't be stupid about this. Anything that you can work to your advantage is fair game. I know a number of people who have gamed the system just as the person above did. If you can pass for black, then be black.

Also, stop making threads about every little thing that comes to your head please.

Originally Posted by mclinkin94

On the bolded part of your answer, I want to add that I keep alternating between this decision. who is to deny my race? This IS me. even in the aamc website they have stats for people who picked black or African American.

I also said NOT To post things due to arrogance or jealousy because you do not have this advantage. I wanted a case in which someone was denied and all i got was criticism. I find it racist that you think I am Caucasian.

I find it racist that you played the race card. You are also racist against all the other races that the racial URM classification was intended for. Your racism is disturbing, and someone as racist as you are should leave this forum, as this is not a racist forum.

I'm trying to picture showing up at your interview at Howard/Morehouse/Meharry and seeing the look on their faces as they double-check your application against your face.

Originally Posted by Knocked Up

Yes, OP, as I told you in another thread. Check off that you are African American. Don't be stupid about this. Anything that you can work to your advantage is fair game. I know a number of people who have gamed the system just as the person above did. If you can pass for black, then be black.

Also, stop making threads about every little thing that comes to your head please.

Um. Is this for real? or is my sarcasm radar broken?

Originally Posted by theseeker4

I find it racist that you played the race card. You are also racist against all the other races that the racial URM classification was intended for. Your racism is disturbing, and someone as racist as you are should leave this forum, as this is not a racist forum.

I find it racist that you say that.

Originally Posted by Knocked Up

Yes, OP, as I told you in another thread. Check off that you are African American. Don't be stupid about this. Anything that you can work to your advantage is fair game. I know a number of people who have gamed the system just as the person above did. If you can pass for black, then be black.

Also, stop making threads about every little thing that comes to your head please.

100% agreement with you

You do know that some schools ask for a photograph along with your secondary, right?

The worse that can happen is that someone will look at your application and decide to judge you as they would judge a non-URM. If you can rise to the top of the heap as a non-URM, listing yourself as "African-American" won't hurt. If you are sub-par in comparison to the top 40% of non-URM applicants, listing yourself as "African-American" will not help.

Originally Posted by mclinkin94

Any incidence where people who define themselves as African American due to a known African Descent or being from continental Africa like Egypt. I am Egyptian and I am 100% sure that I have sub-Saharan African ancestry. Just because Egypt is politically affiliated with the middle east does not mean that they are ethnically Arab. Are there any incidences where people got DENIED medical school due to this or had their doctor licence taken away other than the dude from Mozambique.

Please post a source if possible.

Don't tell me what I should do or what you would do, I want to know what will happen if I do.

Please be nice, If you don't have anything nice to say, leave this forum. I do not want criticism, I want answers.

(people in SDN can be vultures sometimes )

Northern Africa = Caucasian along with Middle East, Europe, and America

I'd call myself african-american. I don't think it can hurt you, I actually think it will help you. Egypt is in Africa.

A poster above mentioned that medical schools want black people, not "african americans" per se. While I agree with that assessment, it is not what they ask for on the application, and so if I were the OP I would label myself AA, as you are indeed AA.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

You do know that some schools ask for a photograph along with your secondary, right?

The worse that can happen is that someone will look at your application and decide to judge you as they would judge a non-URM. If you can rise to the top of the heap as a non-URM, listing yourself as "African-American" won't hurt. If you are sub-par in comparison to the top 40% of non-URM applicants, listing yourself as "African-American" will not help.

one of the best answers I got so far. Thank you very much. It is just difficult for me to identify a race, people here in SDN don't understand. I wish to identify with a race in which I could get an advantage with. I am as Caucasian as I am African-American, therefore picking one of which will not be harmful. I have revealed my MCAT (33) and my GPA (3.4+). what do you think I should do? I want an M.D. School.

Originally Posted by Perrotfish

Yes, there have been cases where students who listed themselves as African American, for the reasons you described, have been accused of academic dishonesty. I remember reading about one case where a white student from Africa was not only denied an acceptance, he was accused of academic dishonesty at his home institution.

Being denied an acceptance is harder to prove, but I would guess more common. Remember your application only gets you an interview... with someone who is looking at your application. If someone showed up in my office with 'african American' marked on his application and snowy white features I would reject him out of hand.

I think you have misinterpreted the definition of Academic dishonesty (i.e. cheating, plagiarism). I know a guy in the news who did the same thing and filed a lawsuit against the medical school about this discrimination and won.

Originally Posted by mclinkin94

On the bolded part of your answer, I want to add that I keep alternating between this decision. who is to deny my race? This IS me. even in the aamc website they have stats for people who picked black or African American.

I also said NOT To post things due to arrogance or jealousy because you do not have this advantage. I wanted a case in which someone was denied and all i got was criticism. I find it racist that you think I am Caucasian.

I can say I'm a Native American since I was born in America, but that doesn't make it so. Who is to deny your race? The US Census.

You were told in the other thread by LizzyM not to do it, and that adcoms would see right through it. That's all you should need. You seemingly made your peace with it, then apparently decided that you still wanted to game the system, so here we are.

Thinking you're Caucasian isn't racist in the least. The only offensive thing here is you playing the race card.

Maybe you can write about how AMCAS awakened something inside you to make you identify with black culture, which you seemingly hadn't felt in your previous 21-or-so years on this planet. That would make you a much more unique applicant than simply checking "Black."

I'm all for using every advantage available to you, but this is a boldfaced lie, and you deserve rejections everywhere you apply if you choose to use it.

Originally Posted by SunsFun

You're not black, dude. If you don't believe me go and try saying n-word around bunch of black people and see what happens.

They'll make him their king. They'll respect him.

Cookies for everyone who gets the reference.

Edit: By the way, mclinkin94 is African-American. He is American, and he has ancestors from east Africa like every other modern human. Stop being so nit-picky on the definition y'all.

Someone I know is Egyptian and put down that they were African American on AMCAS. He looks caucasian.One of the first questions he got asked at every interview was How did his experience in and contribution to the African American community effect who he is today? Apparently didn't have a good answer as he got rejected from all 4 places he interviewed.

If you can answer that question then go ahead and list yourself as African American.

Edit: By the way, mclinkin94 is African-American. He is American, and he has ancestors from east Africa like every other modern human. Stop being so nit-picky on the definition y'all.[/QUOTE]

My dad is Indian and my mom is from the US. Therefore am I an American Indian?

Originally Posted by Druggernaut

I can say I'm a Native American since I was born in America, but that doesn't make it so. Who is to deny your race? The US Census.

You were told in the other thread by LizzyM not to do it, and that adcoms would see right through it. That's all you should need. You seemingly made your peace with it, then apparently decided that you still wanted to game the system, so here we are.

Thinking you're Caucasian isn't racist in the least. The only offensive thing here is you playing the race card.

Maybe you can write about how AMCAS awakened something inside you to make you identify with black culture, which you seemingly hadn't felt in your previous 21-or-so years on this planet. That would make you a much more unique applicant than simply checking "Black."

I'm all for using every advantage available to you, but this is a boldfaced lie, and you deserve rejections everywhere you apply if you choose to use it.

Bold: I guess that makes sense and It would be wise to explain myself before interview.

Underline: I disagree, I am African-American by definition not only because I originate from continental Africa but also because of the 1/16 rule. there is no doubt that I do not have sub-Saharan African ancestry mixed in with Egyptian. Did you forget that most Egyptians are mixed race and within those mixes-sub-Saharan ancestry exists. Do you think this is an acceptable explanation to adcom? I feel like it makes the most logical sense.

Originally Posted by waterpolo480586

Edit: By the way, mclinkin94 is African-American. He is American, and he has ancestors from east Africa like every other modern human. Stop being so nit-picky on the definition y'all.

My dad is Indian and my mom is from the US. Therefore am I an American Indian?[/QUOTE]

Difference between you and I:

I am 100% sure I have Sub-Saharan African ancestry as a mixed Egyptian and also because I am from continental Africa. Just because Egypt is Politacally affiliated with the mid-east does NOT mean I am middle eastern. Go back to 6th grade history and relearn the subject.

Here is how it is going to go:

Committee member: How did your experience in and contribution to the African American community effect who you are today?

mclinkin94: DERP

Committee member:

mclinkin94: but, but I am African-American by definition not only because I originate from continental Africa but also because of the 1/16 rule. there is no doubt that I do not have sub-Saharan African ancestry mixed in with Egyptian.

Committee member:

Ok well this is anecdotal evidence but it might answer your question:

A few days ago an adviser at the health professions office was telling me about an EGYPTIAN from my undergrad who had classified himself as African American on AMCAS. He had an interview at one of the state medical schools. After the interview the admissions office called the health professions office and asked why the kid was listed as African American. The office had no real answer because the individual probably did not tell the office he was going to list himself as such. Apparently, and this is all according to the adviser mind you, the kid did not receive any other interviews and was not admitted during that application cycle.

Take from this what you will.

Originally Posted by DOCTAfoHIRE

Ok well this is anecdotal evidence but it might answer your question:

A few days ago an adviser at the health professions office was telling me about an EGYPTIAN from my undergrad who had classified himself as African American on AMCAS. He had an interview at one of the state medical schools. After the interview the admissions office called the health professions office and asked why the kid was listed as African American. The office had no real answer because the individual probably did not tell the office he was going to list himself as such. Apparently, and this is all according to the adviser mind you, the kid did not receive any other interviews and was not admitted during that application cycle.

Take from this what you will.

Thank you for your answer, however, I feel as if there is a flaw in it.

1. He did not get accepted to that specific school and his application was probably not competitive to receive any other interviews. So don't try to incorporate the fact that he didn't receive other interviews because he he picked African American.

2. I'm sure if the kid mentioned in his supplemental writing how he identifies with African American and why the interview would have went well.

3. I feel that you made this story up to discourage me because the odds of this happening to an EGYPTIAN with the same exact story as me is very slim and the kid could call up the interviewers and explain himself. I do not know why you feel the need to make this up to discourage me. Also: how did they know he was Egyptian if they never did the interview? And If he did the interview, adcom would have asked him about it. I'm sure if there were at least supplements to the application the adcom would understand as to why. You also realize that such acts of discrimination is illegal and can lead to lawsuits-adcoms won't risk that. If they denied him just because of the fact that he picked African American and he considers himself African American, that kid can sue.

What have you been checking on the race questionnaire for most of your life? What does your family pick? Do whatever that has been.

Originally Posted by SunsFun

Here is how it is going to go:

Committee member: How did your experience in and contribution to the African American community effect who you are today?

mclinkin94: DERP

Committee member:

mclinkin94: but, but I am African-American by definition not only because I originate from continental Africa but also because of the 1/16 rule. there is no doubt that I do not have sub-Saharan African ancestry mixed in with Egyptian.

Committee member:

Lmao.

Originally Posted by Blais

Didn't you start this discussion before?

Dude, you aren't black.

I will boil things down for you:

Med schools are only being PC when they say "African American" on AMCAS... the schools want black students (i.e. physicians that will look like their patient population). They aren't looking for merely "people originating from Africa" (at least to the degree of experiencing the fabled URM-advantage).

It has everything to do with your skin color. If it was simply "oh, I am from a underrepresented location in US med schools, I get teh help?" then there would be people from Iceland and Siberia bragging on here about it.

BLACK!

You will be lol'ed at.

Lol, I love this.

But I think it's not a question of "will checking African American work
, rather, it's a question of "should you do it."

Originally Posted by Neurosis

were they from south egypt/northern sudan region? There are black egyptians. I think they are called Nubians...

Nope.

OP, I think the point that you are missing in all of your threads is that your perceived advantage of designating yourself African-American is not an advantage. Sure, you have every 'right' to check the AA box, given that those WORDS are the best description of you. But, you personally do not have the community attachments, historical repression, and systematic societal disadvantage of those considered to be part of the African-American community. So, when it is discovered that you don't have those ties, you'll either get the "oh, well, he is African and American so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not hold it against him" or you'll get the "hmm, I think this guy is trying to play the system". It's not like medical schools have a quota of spots that need to be filled with people who check AA, so nobody's going to say "Oh, well, he checked the box, so I guess he'll do"

Originally Posted by galaxyx

It's not like medical schools have a quota of spots that need to be filled with people who check AA, so nobody's going to say "Oh, well, he checked the box, so I guess he'll do"

Actually.... they do. The LCME has vague directives to increase diversity in medical school classes.
http://www.marshallparthenon.com/med...6#.T6CsXZ9Yt2A
(School newspaper)
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/M...125427358.html

On a side note, question...

Hector is Black and Mexican....Looks more/Identifies as Black (dark skinned)....First/Last name = As Mexican as it comes.

wat do?

If you feel strongly enough about your African American status, just check it. It's not going to hurt you if that's what you identify as. It's not dishonesty.

However, if you've identified yourself as Caucasian your whole life and are only doing this purely for the advantage, that could be dishonesty, and will show up when you can't properly explain how you identify as African American, during interviews persay.

All comes down to yourself now.

African American/Black...its not something that someone can turn on and off. Not something that I can decide to use for my "advantage" or choose to have it used against me. The minute I walk into a room it is evident that I am black and whatever preconceived notions a person may have, whether good, bad, or indifferent immediately go into action. I've had situations where I had to work 500 times harder than peers just to be noticed and I'm sure there have been times when being the only black person present gave me an edge. But my point is, whether it gave me an edge or not I can't change me skin color. I can't pass for someone I'm not. The fact that you are debating using African American as a means to get ahead after identifying yourself as caucasian is saddening and shows a complete misunderstanding of the Black experience. So please, do yourself a favor and submit your application without identifying as African American/Black. Based on your self-reported scores, I have complete faith you will be accepted to school somewhere. Best of luck to you!

Originally Posted by galaxyx

OP, I think the point that you are missing in all of your threads is that your perceived advantage of designating yourself African-American is not an advantage. Sure, you have every 'right' to check the AA box, given that those WORDS are the best description of you. But, you personally do not have the community attachments, historical repression, and systematic societal disadvantage of those considered to be part of the African-American community. So, when it is discovered that you don't have those ties, you'll either get the "oh, well, he is African and American so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not hold it against him" or you'll get the "hmm, I think this guy is trying to play the system". It's not like medical schools have a quota of spots that need to be filled with people who check AA, so nobody's going to say "Oh, well, he checked the box, so I guess he'll do"

This guy (or girl) is right OP. So what if you are a black Egyptian, when was the last time you actually did something for the black community?

Now, I know I shouldn't be saying this, but heck, there is a way for you to feign that you care about the African population. One of the people I knew who used his "supposed" African heritage did it this way...

Do you have family members in Egypt? Well he had family in Eritrea. He took advantage of this. The summer before he applied to college he went to Eritrea and spent a few weeks with his family member. He took lots of pictures of him "helping" little kids to read and learn how to play soccer. He "built" a water supply for the community. He did the same thing before medical school. Except this time he spent a whole "six months" there. He helped "build" a make shift clinic and collected all the supplies needed for the clinic. He set up a "nonprofit" organization with his family members there as the "home country contacts". Everything was complete garbage, but guess what: he attended a top 5 undergrad and is currently sitting at a top 6 medical school with a 28 on his MCAT.

It's not fair and I hope someday he really does get punished for his actions (the Lord does act in mysterious ways sometimes). The adcoms failed to see through his story and he took well advantage of Affirmitive Action. You can go ahead and do the same. I just laid out a perfect plan for you, do something similar and you are guaranteed acceptance to a top 10 medical school. Only thing is that you will have to live with it your entire life (if you are anything like my friend, this shouldn't be a problem though as he doesn't have a conscious).