OCPM/Kent State........Podiatry in General!

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This thread is intended for those "pre-med" students who are on the fence about Podiatry school. Its subsequent purpose is about those students who are on the fence about whether or not to attend OCPM as your choice for school! If you are a podiatrist son/daughter and already have a practice lined up for you, this article is not for you! Take the following with a grain of salt.......the following opinions are mine, and mine alone!

First, why this thread........I really wish someone would have been more up front with me about Podiatry before I attended!

Second, withing the various ramblings I will try my best to stick to facts, and let my opinions rest!

For those students who are on the fence whether or not to attend podiatry school, I would be one who is a current student (and getting out) who would tell you not to attend!

I think you have to ask yourself a question before attending.......why am I attending? Most, if not all would say due to the financial rewards! Especially in Podiatry, I never met a whole lot of altruistic podiatrists! Is the money there? According to the March 2012 APMA NEWS magazine, the average first year associate salary was between $65,000 and $84,999! You have less then 9% making more than $125,000! That would most people in a bind when faced with paying off student loans.
www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/apma/news_201203/index.php?startid=71
Page 26

There are those in podiatry programs who tell them selves that they will be the 8.3% that starts off making a whole bunch of money! Their is a regular "news" email you can subscribe to, namely "PMnews@podiatry.com"! For those of you still thinking about rising above the rest, I would recommend subscription. Back in the fall when the Congress was debating to proceed with, I can't remember the percent, but something like a 23% cut to M&M. (Medicare and Medicaid) All you would read about in PMnews was "how if the government does this to us, we're sunk".

The truth about this is, medicine in general relies heavily on government reimbursement. Podiatry is no different! I know that podiatrist under Medicaid are not considered Physicians. This is especially true in the state of New York where last year cut podiatry out all together for reimbursements. http://www.acfas.org/Physicians/Content.aspx?id=927

When the USA switches to a Government ran health care system, (huge assumption I know) you have to ask yourself, are podiatrist recognized as physicians in Socialized Health Care countries? Of course they're not!

Now onto OCPM.........their basic science department is God-awful! Is is so bad! But this will all change when they switch to Kent! That's what they keep telling us at least. But that they will retain Dr. W.....! Who's ever herd of having a man with a PhD. in nursing teaching genetics/microbiology/immunology? Also the only professor who's on a first name basis, T.. that they have teaching Biochem, when he openly admits that he failed Biochem in grad school? Also they gave an English major not only answering questions is Anatomy, but also teaching lectures that students are graded on? Also having a Kent grad student lecturing and teaching lab when she openly admits to failing anatomy? Also having a Dentist who has lost his license to practice in Ohio teaching? I know that may seem like a joke, but it's not! Lets hope things change with "The Kent takeover!"

Word

I hear this kind of stuff somewhat frequently, but it prompts me to ask this question: If those salary figures you provide are correct, then why does BLS report MEDIAN pod salary at 120k and the "Today's Podiatrist" report that over ~60% make more than 120k and that average pod NET INCOME is 190k in 2008?

Also, I have shadowed four pods, and one drives a BMW, the other a brand new $50k Volvo, another drives a Lexus, and the other one drives a Toyota Camry (he graduated in 2005 or 2006 I believe).

Perhaps the number you show is after taxes, and after deductions. If a lot of pods own their own practice they can have some very "creative" accounting that makes their income look a LOT less than it actually is....

Can we get an IP check between this guy and NeilD/whatever other names he has that have been banned already...

How can I take anybody seriously that cannot correctly use than/then or only uses the singular term podiatrist?

65-84k for a first year associate (mean/median roughly 75k)? Not too shabby, unless you're trying to compare to some MD specialties with years more residency.

Hell, lawyers don't make that much their first year, and I didn't get into the profession with the assumption that I'd be "makin' bank" my first year out.

I appreciate your input to the forum, and hope the discussion can remain civilized. Opposing viewpoints respectfully discussed are hard things to come by, but they always leave everyone involved with a bit more knowledge. I don't share your pessimism with the field, but everyone's entitled to an opinion.

I suppose there's....damn...I'm a psych major and don't remember what the condition is called in which you experience things first hand, and make assumptions to apply them generally.

Oh well....after seeing a few pods in the field, I've yet to find one that was unhappy with their position, or having any financial difficulties that weren't self-inflicted, and I suppose that's given me the impression that the majority are happy with where they are.

Be careful about leaving any traces of who you are in your postings. I welcome anonymous information about any school, as long as it's not slanderous (well...libel in print). That sort of thing can leave you out of school with a lot of debt.

I can't comment on your school in particular. I know that I've only had one class with a prof that didn't seem to know what he/she was talking about, and expect to come across those types every once in a while, but at DMU they seem to be the exception and not the norm.

Hmm....I can't speak as to your prognostications about the state of healthcare in America, but I do think that you protest too much about the qualifications of your instructors. It seems almost all of your complaints about your school have to do with what major your teacher had in college, and how well they did in the same class they're teaching when they were students (??). I mean..are they actually teaching you badly, or are you just aghast that their resumes are lacking? Sounds like the latter.

I also have to surmise that you must be in some kind of academic difficulty. Nobody doing well would be on here complaining about their teachers' qualifications. If my assumption is right, and you are indeed struggling, perhaps you should think about what you can do better and not pin the blame on your instructors for not being qualified enough to teach you?

This is an anonymous forum, public and open. If you disagree with what he says, instead of saying he's "this and this" or can't write properly, attack what he says.

He's expressing an alternate viewpoint, and there are plenty of people on here who I swear haven't written an essay a day in their life, and I don't see anyone harping on them.

I looked at what he posted, and the statistical figures are straight from APMA news, March 2012. What are you so bothered by?

I agree with amaprez that the information OP gave regarding why his/her professors are inadequate is, itself, lacking. I almost failed both semesters of biology, but performed well above average on the bio section of the MCAT, and have performed well in biology classes in school now, so if you've got something to say about professors, your frustrations would be better served by providing evidence of their stupidity, and not dissatisfaction with their undergrad performance.

Isn't it sort of common knowledge at this point that undergrad didn't really mean anything?

Originally Posted by bobdolerson

I looked at what he posted, and the statistical figures are straight from APMA news, March 2012. What are you so bothered by?

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but isn't "Today's Podiatrist" put on by the APMA? How can they report that ~60% make over 120k in their literature only to say in another publication that 9% make more?
The Today's Podiatrist survey was from 2008, so it is somewhat dated, but I don't think 51% of the profession would have fallen so severely... would it?

Originally Posted by MaxillofacialMN

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but isn't "Today's Podiatrist" put on by the APMA? How can they report that ~60% make over 120k in their literature only to say in another publication that 9% make more?
The Today's Podiatrist survey was from 2008, so it is somewhat dated, but I don't think 51% of the profession would have fallen so severely... would it?

My post was directed to the good fellow directly after you.

The stats from APMA news were specifically regarding first year associates, and from what I've seen through shadowing and talking with practicing podiatrists, I have to assume that 75k median/mean is after taxes, and that it also would increase substantially with time.

Don't many associates make a percentage of what they bring in? I don't know how the real world of podiatry works, but wouldn't increasing clientele subsequently increase their income? This isn't me trying to say how it works, simply posing a question for people practicing, or those with more info on the subject than I.

To the OP, regarding socialized medicine.
Number 1 - Let's just pray for the sake of getting back just a teeny bit of the freedoms stolen in the past few decades that they'll strike down this horrendous bill, and that private innovations can lead to cheaper and more accessible medicine. You can't expect everyone to have access to the best car (any more than you can expect everyone to have access to a Ferrari), but with individual motivations to see a niche and fill it, it's possible to better care for the lower socioeconomic classes. There /do/, however, need to be some changes in financial responsibility if that's ever going to happen (ie, probably not...)

Number 2 - Don't take insurance? There will always be those willing to pay to get faster treatment, so just having a system without a middle man would decrease your available clients, but increase their "quality", so to speak. If the government decides to mandate that physicians take government insurance, I would have to think they would additionally pay for all schooling, and "forgive" (cause they're so sweet) government-derived student loans. Maybe not, and they'll screw over doctors everywhere, but it's a dangerous thing to piss off a lobbying power that big, and I also don't think (with this mentality that jobs must always be created, never destroyed) that they would throw several thousand practicing podiatrists out with no possibility of a job.

Either way, if the system becomes increasingly dependent on government involvement, I'll be leaving. I have a plan, and you can all join me in my utopia.

Larry Page's salary is $1...he is the CEO of google. "Salary" doesn't mean a whole lot, and coupling that with an APMA survey makes it even less meaningful.

I personally would trust MGMA and discussions with current residents, over anything the APMA published regarding income.

As far as OCPM's basic sciences, something is being lost in translation somewhere. Whether it is the large # of students, the curriculum, or the faculty, there is something left to be desired when you look at how their students fare on a standardized exam covering our first 2 years of school. Of course, unless it comes from a current OCPM student it is all speculation. And I'd guess that you will get different answers based on where the student sits academically....

Your inability to create a sentence without grammatical errors leads me to highly doubt your ability to perform at a graduate education level. I highly doubt your professors would be that forthcoming about being inadequately prepared to teach you their specific subject. All of this along with your choice to make your first post a direct attack of a particular school makes me very wary of your intentions.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh wow. I did NOT read the first year associate part.... Sorry, my bad!

Agreed. I think most DPM salary studies (including the one cited) look at your guaranteed base. It generally doesn't include your bonus structure for production. 65-85K isn't horrible for a base and one could clean up with production bonuses because a lower base salary generally means a lower bench mark for bonusing. There was like 50K difference in my first year base and what I made in my first year. Students often misunderstand this stuff.

Originally Posted by jonwill

Agreed. I think most DPM salary studies (including the one cited) look at your guaranteed base. It generally doesn't include your bonus structure for production. 65-85K isn't horrible for a base and one could clean up with production bonuses because a lower base salary generally means a lower bench mark for bonusing. There was like 50K difference in my first year base and what I made in my first year. Students often misunderstand this stuff.

Thanks for this insight jonwill. As I understand it, practices hire this way to minimize the significant financial risk they are taking by hiring a new associate. This is evidenced by the fact that if you survive your 1st year as an associate your base salary usually takes a healthy jump.

And to think the OP might be quitting school over this misunderstanding

Yesssss, I love having an assumption about something (especially concerning my future) and finding out it's true. Too often that's not the case.

Thanks for the post, jonwill! I don't know when SDN came into existence, or who was there at the beginning, but ever since I joined I've appreciated seeing you post and consider you part of the original SDN mafia family.

I need some sleep, I think.

Am I missing something or does the survey seem like a pretty small sample size spread out over a reasonably large time period? I followed the link provided above (listed below), but don't have access to the actual survey data which is on the APMA website.
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/apma...startid=71#/26

The survey is from 2001 to 2010. There are 108 responses.

There is a bad odor to the original post. There is some underlying motivation. The OP lost all credibility with me when he started his rant about the lack of qualifications of his professors. I'm sure that a professor who "failed" the subject as a student would be letting everyone know that information.

Not everyone can or will succeed in school or in their chosen profession, and are always looking for someone to blame. This is the classic example.

And the parking lot in our office where the docs park has some pretty nice wheels, and so does my garage, though that means nothing.

To OP....Its very apparent that you are ranked the last person in your class.

I know 2 current residents and 2 former graduates of my residency program that all will/have started with 6 figure incomes. And this is with in the last 2 years.

Now onto OCPM.........their basic science department is God-awful! Is is so bad! But this will all change when they switch to Kent! That's what they keep telling us at least. But that they will retain Dr. W.....! Who's ever herd of having a man with a PhD. in nursing teaching genetics/microbiology/immunology? Also the only professor who's on a first name basis, T.. that they have teaching Biochem, when he openly admits that he failed Biochem in grad school? Also they gave an English major not only answering questions is Anatomy, but also teaching lectures that students are graded on? Also having a Kent grad student lecturing and teaching lab when she openly admits to failing anatomy? Also having a Dentist who has lost his license to practice in Ohio teaching? I know that may seem like a joke, but it's not! Lets hope things change with "The Kent takeover!"

Word[/QUOTE]

Your extremely ill informed. Dr. W got his PHD from Purdue in Microbiology...he knows his stuff extremely well. That dentist, who also teaches at Case Western Reserve Dental School, cannot practice dentistry anymore because he had a stroke... and therefore now has to teach b/c obviously his dexterity is no longer the same. Professor "T" is probably one of the best professors at OCPM and is the Head of the Science Dept at Case Western Reserve Dental. The majority of our lower anatomy classes have been taught by a Cleveland Clinic 3rd year resident which has been awesome and a few other practicing podiatrists. I agree that our basic sciences need some work...maybe your just a little bitter about the way this semester went

Originally Posted by UVAallday

Now onto OCPM.........their basic science department is God-awful! Is is so bad! But this will all change when they switch to Kent! That's what they keep telling us at least. But that they will retain Dr. W.....! Who's ever herd of having a man with a PhD. in nursing teaching genetics/microbiology/immunology? Also the only professor who's on a first name basis, T.. that they have teaching Biochem, when he openly admits that he failed Biochem in grad school? Also they gave an English major not only answering questions is Anatomy, but also teaching lectures that students are graded on? Also having a Kent grad student lecturing and teaching lab when she openly admits to failing anatomy? Also having a Dentist who has lost his license to practice in Ohio teaching? I know that may seem like a joke, but it's not! Lets hope things change with "The Kent takeover!"

Word

Your extremely ill informed. Dr. W got his PHD from Purdue in Microbiology...he knows his stuff extremely well. That dentist, who also teaches at Case Western Reserve Dental School, cannot practice dentistry anymore because he had a stroke... and therefore now has to teach b/c obviously his dexterity is no longer the same. Professor "T" is probably one of the best professors at OCPM and is the Head of the Science Dept at Case Western Reserve Dental. The majority of our lower anatomy classes have been taught by a Cleveland Clinic 3rd year resident which has been awesome and a few other practicing podiatrists. I agree that our basic sciences need some work...maybe your just a little bitter about the way this semester went

Ouch...

Originally Posted by bobdolerson

Your extremely ill informed. Dr. W got his PHD from Purdue in Microbiology...he knows his stuff extremely well. That dentist, who also teaches at Case Western Reserve Dental School, cannot practice dentistry anymore because he had a stroke... and therefore now has to teach b/c obviously his dexterity is no longer the same. Professor "T" is probably one of the best professors at OCPM and is the Head of the Science Dept at Case Western Reserve Dental. The majority of our lower anatomy classes have been taught by a Cleveland Clinic 3rd year resident which has been awesome and a few other practicing podiatrists. I agree that our basic sciences need some work...maybe your just a little bitter about the way this semester went

Ouch...

When you're ouched by the bob, then you've been really ouched! Perhaps airbud can chime in as well

I wasnt the one who talked bad about OCPM, that was the OP. I was the one who made the response

I just messed up the quote thing

Originally Posted by UVAallday

I just messed up the quote thing

haha, its ok, bob and I kept it alive! He was responding to the OP. I as well.

Gotta love when one person screws up the quote brackets and then the rest of the thread is screwed up after everybody continues to quote that post without fixing it.

Apparently when you quote a post with a quote, it does something weird...

::EDIT:: Nvm, now I see...I quoted a misquoted quote, which adjusted the quotes to the newly misquoted quote of a quote. That makes sense.

My bad to the poster who originally posted a response to the OP.

Originally Posted by bobdolerson

Apparently when you quote a post with a quote, it does something weird...

::EDIT:: Nvm, now I see...I quoted a misquoted quote, which adjusted the quotes to the newly misquoted quote of a quote. That makes sense.

My bad to the poster who originally posted a response to the OP.

You lost me at 'quote'

Originally Posted by shenanigans327

This is basically the perfect ending to this thread.

Also

hahaha

Originally Posted by UVAallday

Now onto OCPM.........their basic science department is God-awful! Is is so bad! But this will all change when they switch to Kent! That's what they keep telling us at least. But that they will retain Dr. W.....! Who's ever herd of having a man with a PhD. in nursing teaching genetics/microbiology/immunology? Also the only professor who's on a first name basis, T.. that they have teaching Biochem, when he openly admits that he failed Biochem in grad school? Also they gave an English major not only answering questions is Anatomy, but also teaching lectures that students are graded on? Also having a Kent grad student lecturing and teaching lab when she openly admits to failing anatomy? Also having a Dentist who has lost his license to practice in Ohio teaching? I know that may seem like a joke, but it's not! Lets hope things change with "The Kent takeover!"

Word

Your extremely ill informed. Dr. W got his PHD from Purdue in Microbiology...he knows his stuff extremely well. That dentist, who also teaches at Case Western Reserve Dental School, cannot practice dentistry anymore because he had a stroke... and therefore now has to teach b/c obviously his dexterity is no longer the same. Professor "T" is probably one of the best professors at OCPM and is the Head of the Science Dept at Case Western Reserve Dental. The majority of our lower anatomy classes have been taught by a Cleveland Clinic 3rd year resident which has been awesome and a few other practicing podiatrists. I agree that our basic sciences need some work...maybe your just a little bitter about the way this semester went[/QUOTE]


Extremely ill informed? I'm not really sure who you are, but I'm also not sure why you are defending OCPM and its faculty? You do know that as of two weeks ago OCPM itself was put on academic probation by the Podiatry Licensing Board! Their grievances, such as the fact that thirty students didn't pass part two of boards in 2010. Half, fifteen of those were from OCPM! Also there is a huge number of students who routinely fail part one of boards that come out of OCPM! As stated in my previous post, facts speak for themselves.

As to the rest of the statements about my post. The responses did not come as a surprise to me. Coming from a profession who's self image is perplexed by, I believe the clinic term is "little man syndrome!" But I'm sure that Hal Orenstein or someone on this post will have something to say about that!

Originally Posted by Exoposee

Your extremely ill informed. Dr. W got his PHD from Purdue in Microbiology...he knows his stuff extremely well. That dentist, who also teaches at Case Western Reserve Dental School, cannot practice dentistry anymore because he had a stroke... and therefore now has to teach b/c obviously his dexterity is no longer the same. Professor "T" is probably one of the best professors at OCPM and is the Head of the Science Dept at Case Western Reserve Dental. The majority of our lower anatomy classes have been taught by a Cleveland Clinic 3rd year resident which has been awesome and a few other practicing podiatrists. I agree that our basic sciences need some work...maybe your just a little bitter about the way this semester went

Extremely ill informed? I'm not really sure who you are, but I'm also not sure why you are defending OCPM and its faculty? You do know that as of two weeks ago OCPM itself was put on academic probation by the Podiatry Licensing Board! Their grievances, such as the fact that thirty students didn't pass part two of boards in 2010. Half, fifteen of those were from OCPM! Also there is a huge number of students who routinely fail part one of boards that come out of OCPM! As stated in my previous post, facts speak for themselves.

As to the rest of the statements about my post. The responses did not come as a surprise to me. Coming from a profession who's self image is perplexed by, I believe the clinic term is "little man syndrome!" But I'm sure that Hal Orenstein or someone on this post will have something to say about that![/QUOTE]

sources?

Sent from my SPH-D600 using SDN Mobile

Originally Posted by Exoposee

Extremely ill informed? I'm not really sure who you are, but I'm also not sure why you are defending OCPM and its faculty? You do know that as of two weeks ago OCPM itself was put on academic probation by the Podiatry Licensing Board! Their grievances, such as the fact that thirty students didn't pass part two of boards in 2010. Half, fifteen of those were from OCPM! Also there is a huge number of students who routinely fail part one of boards that come out of OCPM! As stated in my previous post, facts speak for themselves.

Is this true? Is there a way for pre-pods to know this (ie is it public knowledge)?

+1000

Sent from my SPH-D600 using SDN Mobile

I really would like to see this info... If true, it's a bit disturbing to say the least...

Call the school and ask if this is true. Most likely someone from the administration at OCPM is reading this thread. Don't underestimate that. I know for a fact the administration at Scholl reads the threads from time to time. Especially Scholl specific ones.

"Extremely ill informed? I'm not really sure who you are, but I'm also not sure why you are defending OCPM and its faculty? You do know that as of two weeks ago OCPM itself was put on academic probation by the Podiatry Licensing Board! Their grievances, such as the fact that thirty students didn't pass part two of boards in 2010. Half, fifteen of those were from OCPM! Also there is a huge number of students who routinely fail part one of boards that come out of OCPM! As stated in my previous post, facts speak for themselves."

The problem is that in your first post your "facts" were wrong. You either were ignorant of the background regarding the professors or you just fabricated it yourself. OCPM has its fair share of problems, which I feel every school has, but this guy clearly has an axe to grind.

Thanks for the input shades o grey, but no one has confirmed or denied whether they are on probation. I know the OP is ranting, and probably should have mentioned the probation issue in his first post if its true. But baring what I consider "expected behavior" us preloads want to know if we should cut OCPM out of our short lists...

Also, I feel weird calling the school and saying, "hey so I was on SDN and are you guys on probation?" I always think schools look down on SDN and asking if they are on probation seems like a way awkward question...

Max,

I am going to guess that the original poster is probably a dropout first year (based on the profs he mentioned), I am also a first year, and haven't heard anything about that... I would encourage you to consider the source, and the information he mentioned. Perhaps he meant to say the CPME (council on podiatric medical education) and not the "Podiatry Licensing Board" but irregardless it doesn't make his story very believable... If I hear anything about OCPM being on probation I'll let you guys know, good luck choosing a school. PM me if you have any questions, I'll give straight answers...

Originally Posted by shadesofgrey

Max,

I am going to guess that the original poster is probably a dropout first year (based on the profs he mentioned), I am also a first year, and haven't heard anything about that... I would encourage you to consider the source, and the information he mentioned. Perhaps he meant to say the CPME (council on podiatric medical education) and not the "Podiatry Licensing Board" but irregardless it doesn't make his story very believable... If I hear anything about OCPM being on probation I'll let you guys know, good luck choosing a school. PM me if you have any questions, I'll give straight answers...

People get on the OP for his poor writing ability, saying he's a dropout, so I feel it's only fair to mention that "irregardless" isn't a word....

Bob,

I would like to mention that I never pointed out the original poster's poor writing ability.

Additionally, irregardless is considered a nonstandard word and irregardless of the words grammar status, you sir are an ass...

Originally Posted by shadesofgrey

Bob,

I would like to mention that I never pointed out the original poster's poor writing ability.

Additionally, irregardless is considered a nonstandard word and irregardless of the words grammar status, you sir are an ass...

I would like to add..........Now that grades have been posted.............the following facts..........I personally know of Twelve people kick out of the program for failing grades! I know that all of you will say that it was the students fault.........


But when you have fifty, yes fifty out of seventy six students who fail lower anatomy!!!!!!??????? Is it the faculty or students? Does it matter? Also a third failed Micro, and a third failed Neuro!


If you are a prospective student and looking into OCPM, call the Dean about these numbers! And then reconsider!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Exoposee

I would like to add..........Now that grades have been posted.............the following facts..........I personally know of Twelve people kick out of the program for failing grades! I know that all of you will say that it was the students fault.........


But when you have fifty, yes fifty out of seventy six students who fail lower anatomy!!!!!!??????? Is it the faculty or students? Does it matter? Also a third failed Micro, and a third failed Neuro!


If you are a prospective student and looking into OCPM, call the Dean about these numbers! And then reconsider!!!!!!!!

cool story bro

Originally Posted by Ferocity

cool story bro

I mean... if these numbers are true, i wouldn't be so flippant about my remarks...

Originally Posted by Ferocity

cool story bro

i agree with MaxillofacialMN. if these numbers are indeed true it's a legitimate cause for concern.

Originally Posted by Ferocity

Can we get an IP check between this guy and NeilD/whatever other names he has that have been banned already...

How can I take anybody seriously that cannot correctly use than/then or only uses the singular term podiatrist?

I can assure you it wasn't me and welcome that verification. I don't know why you are so threatened by me? You do realize people are entitled to different beliefs that may be inconsistent with "group think". I come from a real world PODIATRY family so you may want to lighten up on the conspiracy theories.

OCPM has informed the Class of 2016 that these accusations of probation are baseless and completely false. If you are skeptical, feel free to call them at (216) 231-3300.

Originally Posted by SuperFeisty

OCPM has informed the Class of 2016 that these accusations of probation are baseless and completely false. If you are skeptical, feel free to call them at (216) 231-3300.

What did you expect them to say?

Did they really send out a class email, three months before class starts, to address these claims on SDN?