SGU vs KCUMB

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This thread turned in to so much fail that i actually feel bad for the OP.

Boyd probably did it to enhance his business. Can you blame him? Probably not.

Originally Posted by amaprez

I can't stop watching this .gif

Originally Posted by CXCR4

Boyd probably did it to enhance his business. Can you blame him? Probably not.

Exactly. Boyd probably doesn't care about MD/DO, and it's not like he'll go to his colleagues and say "LOOK GUYS! I'M AN MD FROM CARIBBEAN NOW!" It's just money at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by heroes31

But wait, it gets worse! Did a quick search of the OPs previous posts and apparently he was accepted to CCOM and NYCOM as well!! (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...php?p=12299565).

Triple

Seriously? I'm calling troll on the OP. There's no way someone can actually be this dense and lack such simple comprehension and logic and get this far along in the process. Or maybe I'm wrong and it is a possibility. Regardless, I actually PM'd OP out of sincere concern for this individual. Not a peep.

This thread has to have one of the worst outcomes I've seen in my miserable tenure here on SDN... well until that gif of the midget horse pulling a reverse body slam like Jack the Snake Roberts popped up! Ultimate turnaround!

Originally Posted by amaprez

Where can i find this? I keep coming back to this thread just to watch it. I freaken Love it

Triagepremed has his account on hold?? I wonder what happened?

What will I do without that cat avatar.

Originally Posted by ensuii

I'm going to go with SGU. Who wouldn't want an MD after their name!?

i applied to one medical school, an osteopathic school.

Originally Posted by TriagePreMed

This has to be trolling. No way someone got into DO school being this clueless having never done any research on the subject and that asks DO's for their opinion on Caribbean vs DO.

i do know of ppl that didnt even apply to DO schools and went to carribean even tho i told them to apply to some DO programs... but i believe in doin what makes u happy so if u think goin to a DO school wud make u unhappy then by all means go to SGU or whatever but when u have to get a 99% or whatever it is on the USMLE to even be considered to an avg medical student in the US... then dont tell me i didnt tell u so

Originally Posted by jumpmanv15

i do know of ppl that didnt even apply to DO schools and went to carribean even tho i told them to apply to some DO programs... but i believe in doin what makes u happy so if u think goin to a DO school wud make u unhappy then by all means go to SGU or whatever but when u have to get a 99% or whatever it is on the USMLE to even be considered to an avg medical student in the US... then dont tell me i didnt tell u so

I believe his point is that *if you did the research* it would be clear that one is a superior option. It would also be clear that if that doesn't convince you, then the degree name is all that matters to you. Either way, its a light switch thing. If you've done your research you either select the less risky option, or the one with the better name.

He's implying the guy is FoS for saying he did the research. Not that DO is the only choice. You can always choose the other. But asking "why" or for "more info" is a dead ringer you didn't do the research. Which is fine. Other person should just not claim he did.

Originally Posted by twist25

i think i'm playing it safe and not taking a gamble by going to the DO route knowing that if this law passes, doors to all the ACGME residencies will be closed

I support your decision. But not because your know what your talking about. If you read the 'laws' that are on the table, and not yet passed. It states that a DO graduate from an AOA residency cannot go to an ACGME FELLOWSHIP, but if a DO gets into an AMA residency (which from what i hear about 50% do), then there is no issue going into an ACGME fellowship. Worst come to worst, you do an AOA residency and you want to pursue a fellowship, you may have to redo the that residency at an AMA program then apply to the fellowship.

Nonetheless good luck as you may become my colleague one day in the medical field!

Originally Posted by Bones DO

A few DO like NYCOM have 300 seats...but really holy crap, SGU graduates 800-900?! With carib level attrition that means they take well over 1100 people per class!! How the hell does anyone learn anything with that many class mates?? Anatomy lab must absolutely suck; there's no way they have enough cadavers for those kinds of numbers. Frankly, I find it funny that this thread exists at all.

My guess is that they don't have cadavers in their lab, but that's just an assumption. Not every school uses cadavers. Even if they do at SGU, that would be a lot of cadavers for that many students. Wow! (EDIT: I looked it up. SGU uses "prosected cadaveric specimens". So, I'm guessing it's view and memorize for students there. Not the same thing as spending the time doing the dissection yourself...which you do at KCUMB. That's reason enough to pick KCUMB)

I'm a KCUMB student. It's a solid school. The curriculum is solid. The faculty is helpful. Board scores and matching is continuing to be like the class of 2011.

The OP has to make the decision for him/herself. If the initials matter that much to you, go for SGU. But, I think you'll find that life will be much easier as a US grad (US MD or DO). Matching is easier. The education is more consistent and solid. And the eventual goal, a job, is typically easier to get as a US grad. DOs are on the whole more sought after than FMGs.

Originally Posted by bunion123

Where can i find this? I keep coming back to this thread just to watch it. I freaken Love it

It's from youtube

Don't feel so bad for him. I think he used anything he could to to justify going to SGU. It's funny how the mind works. Thats what he really wanted.

Originally Posted by amaprez

It's from youtube

I got kinda worried your link was gonna lead to a Rick-Roll'n! Hahaha! I literary hesitated clicking on it for a few seconds in fear, but took the plunge.

Originally Posted by amaprez

Accepted to NYCOM, CCOM and KCUMB.....and he went to SGU....... Yes this movie is a perfect response. OP, I'm sorry for you really I am. You obviously have rejected what everyone here states (yes some are not worth listening to) but others are worth their weight in gold.

Here's one more pic to describe my thoughts..... Good luck finding residency here in the States.....
star-wars-darth-vader-sense.jpg

Originally Posted by COMedic2Doc

Accepted to NYCOM, CCOM and KCUMB.....and he went to SGU....... Yes this movie is a perfect response. OP, I'm sorry for you really I am. You obviously have rejected what everyone here states (yes some are not worth listening to) but others are worth their weight in gold.

Here's one more pic to describe my thoughts..... Good luck finding residency here in the States.....
Attachment 19203

That is gonna be the cleanest saltwater ever...

I did a rotation at UMKC-St Luke's this past year. They had all sorts of SABA kids there. They would make snide comments about DOs, even though for several years the IM program at UMKC has had DOs as Chief Resident. Anyway, I always laughed when they complained about having made 260's on Step I, but only being able to get FM residency interviews. It was also funny when they said they had the same stats, applied to 50 programs, yet only got 6 or 7 interviews... The OP is gonna have an ugly reality come 4th year...

Originally Posted by LSU Alex

That is gonna be the cleanest saltwater ever...

I did a rotation at UMKC-St Luke's this past year. They had all sorts of SABA kids there. They would make snide comments about DOs, even though for several years the IM program at UMKC has had DOs as Chief Resident. Anyway, I always laughed when they complained about having made 260's on Step I, but only being able to get FM residency interviews. It was also funny when they said they had the same stats, applied to 50 programs, yet only got 6 or 7 interviews... The OP is gonna have an ugly reality come 4th year...

I agree that the OP is in for a rude awakening come 4th year. Although SGU has a tempestuous campaign for their school, I truly believe that they will start losing out very quickly especially with the residency changes ahead (clearly we missed this part as well when reading the report on the future perspective for FMGs vs. DOs).

Yes, this absolutely is some of the best salt water around. Here's another pic for the OP and others to enjoy....
star-wars-unemployment.jpg

Might as well go all the way with this tangent

that last pic makes me want to watch the VW commercial again lol

This is the second time I've heard first hand experiences of Caribbeans ripping on DO students...I don't understand the point...it's not even an argument imo, DO>Carib.

Anyways does anyone know anything about the Trinity school in the Carib...a friend of mine got in instead of going DO...I don't get it it's their second time applying and they still didn't try DO...

Anyone know anything about this school?

Originally Posted by museic

Anyone know anything about this school?

Just graduated their first class. I severely doubt the class size was 12... but I'll let their own website speak for itself

"Eight of the twelve students who participated in the 2012 NRMP Main Match obtained a first-year residency position."

Thats it. 8 matches last year. That counts 1 person who didnt match NRMP went to Canada instead (to be fair, Canada is pretty damn competitive, but is not technically within the NRMP for the sake of that stat.)

Its a brand new third tier (no CA , TX, or NY accreditation, which is more of a status thing than a hinderance) caribbean school. Not much more to say beyond
NEW SCHOOL + OFFSHORE =

Originally Posted by DocEspana

Just graduated their first class. I severely doubt the class size was 12... but I'll let their own website speak for itself "Eight of the twelve students who participated in the 2012 NRMP Main Match obtained a first-year residency position."

They have "a newly renovated lecture hall with seating for over 200," plus "two newly renovated, 80-seat lecture halls." And only 8 people found jobs.

Originally Posted by costales

They have "a newly renovated lecture hall with seating for over 200," plus "two newly renovated, 80-seat lecture halls." And only 8 people found jobs.

Im really hoping we just got trolled hard by the OP

Originally Posted by DocEspana

Triagepremed has his account on hold?? I wonder what happened?

What will I do without that cat avatar.

Religious thread. I said things people didn't like which didn't violate the TOS, but the mod said he got a lot of complaints about it. BS is if you ask me.

things like that make me wonder how I havent been put on time out yet...

Originally Posted by TriagePreMed

Religious thread. I said things people didn't like which didn't violate the TOS, but the mod said he got a lot of complaints about it. BS is if you ask me.

There's a religious thread? I need to get out on SDN more I guess.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

things like that make me wonder how I havent been put on time out yet...

How do you think I feel. I have to occasionally be highly useful to make up for 91% of all my posts lately being counter-trolling or witty gifs. If I didnt occasionally show utility, I'm sure SDN would try to have my IP address blocked forever.

Here's hoping that's what it is

Originally Posted by FrkyBgStok

If you go SGU you will likely have major problems obtaining even a primary care residency.

606 matches in the SGU match list, assuming 7% attrition (self reported) (please cite another source or don't complain about the numbers), that means 93% matched with at least primary care. That is by no means major problems.

Out of the 606 matches, 303 were in primary care, meaning 50% went on to non-IM/FM/Peds matches. Compare that with the "clearly superior" kcumb - where 101 of 227 matches were in primary care - meaning 56% went to non-IM/FM/Peds.

I see 4 Einstein, 2 Baylor, 1 Mayo Clinic(!), 10 Sinai, 1 UCSF(!), 1 U Chicago match at SGU (top name programs).
I see 2 Baylor, 2 Mayo (!), 1 Barns Jewish, 1 Case at kcumb. Still not a clear advantage for either

Originally Posted by DocEspana

If you could only pick one thing to wake up to sitting on your desk right next to your head, what would you pick?

KCUMB:


or SGU:

There couldn't be anyone more biased than DocEspana, who as a committee chairman on the medical student society of NY actively lobbies against FMG's in New York, upset at their presence in New York City hospitals.

Originally Posted by DocEspana

Flaw 2 is that you're citing SGU's tracking of people into fellowships. Fellowships are (mostly) due to your residency performance and connections, and not your med school anything.

Please explain how tracking a physician's success over the entire career is flawed? You seem to be telling me that it would be flawed to say SGU's fellowships make it superior because SGU students have superior residency performance and connections. Would you like to stand by your statement that residency performance is irrespective of your med school?

Originally Posted by elliotkw9

This may sound biased as I am currently a student at KCUMB

You couldn't be as biased as DocEspaña, and it's always good to have a current student's perspective.

Originally Posted by crmellon

Ouch. I hope a FP residency in rural North Dakota is your dream match. At least it'll be ACGME.

The irony when you read the match list: One FP residency in North Dakota out of 606 for SGU, one FP residency in South Dakota out of 227 for KCUMB.

Examples of SGU's 3rd and 4th year clinical sites are New Jersey Medical School, which boasts some of the most hands on clinical training in the country, and New York City Public Hospitals, at spots once coveted by NYC Medical Schools - part of the problem DocEspana is crusading to fix.

Originally Posted by theWUbear

606 matches in the SGU match list, assuming 7% attrition (self reported) (please cite another source or don't complain about the numbers), that means 93% matched with at least primary care. That is by no means major problems.

Out of the 606 matches, 303 were in primary care, meaning 50% went on to non-IM/FM/Peds matches. Compare that with the "clearly superior" kcumb - where 101 of 227 matches were in primary care - meaning 56% went to non-IM/FM/Peds.

I see 4 Einstein, 2 Baylor, 1 Mayo Clinic(!), 10 Sinai, 1 UCSF(!), 1 U Chicago match at SGU (top name programs).
I see 2 Baylor, 2 Mayo (!), 1 Barns Jewish, 1 Case at kcumb. Still not a clear advantage for either



There couldn't be anyone more biased than DocEspana, who as a committee chairman on the medical student society of NY actively lobbies against FMG's in New York, upset at their presence in New York City hospitals.



Please explain how tracking a physician's success over the entire career is flawed? You seem to be telling me that it would be flawed to say SGU's fellowships make it superior because SGU students have superior residency performance and connections. Would you like to stand by your statement that residency performance is irrespective of your med school?



You couldn't be as biased as DocEspaña, and it's always good to have a current student's perspective.



The irony when you read the match list: One FP residency in North Dakota out of 606 for SGU, one FP residency in South Dakota out of 227 for KCUMB.

Examples of SGU's 3rd and 4th year clinical sites are New Jersey Medical School, which boasts some of the most hands on clinical training in the country, and New York City Public Hospitals, at spots once coveted by NYC Medical Schools - part of the problem DocEspana is crusading to fix.

So hows the koolaid taste? Ive never had any but im pretty sure a straw man would like it. Maybe in 3 years when Im applying for residency ill try some, but ill probably be too busy getting a job.

[QUOTE=theWUbear;12491784]606 matches in the SGU match list, assuming 7% attrition (self reported) (please cite another source or don't complain about the numbers), that means 93% matched with at least primary care. That is by no means major problems. [quote]

I've always said just check their website, where they brag that they enroll approximately 4,000 medical students. Its funny cause their admission page is 100% honest about how many they enroll, and their graduation data always seems to be missing about 400-500 students per year when compared to the figures on other parts of their site. Sources on the inside have always told me that number is likely closer to 5,000.

Well lets go right to the only source that matters. The school themselves commenting to the New York Times. They *brag* about training 4,500 medical students over 4 years. That's over 1,100 students per class (again, graduating class size... ~600). And in addition, New York State admits that it trained around 900 3rd year medical students in its hospital system last year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/ny...al-school.html

Out of the 606 matches, 303 were in primary care, meaning 50% went on to non-IM/FM/Peds matches. Compare that with the "clearly superior" kcumb - where 101 of 227 matches were in primary care - meaning 56% went to non-IM/FM/Peds.

I'll be 100% honest with you. I haven't run SGU's 2012 numbers. Just not something I've felt up to doing yet. I will say that their 2010 match was 505 matches, of which 336 (66.5%) students went into primary care. The real kicker is 2011 when 661 people matched from SGU and 451 (81.8%!!!!) matched into IM, FM, or Peds.

if youre curious, just press the back button on your own link to check out the previous years. here is the link in case you're disinclined to check my work. https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/Re...=PGY1&Count=-1

There couldn't be anyone more biased than DocEspana, who as a committee chairman on the medical student society of NY actively lobbies against FMG's in New York, upset at their presence in New York City hospitals.

Absolutely true. I find that its hard to debate the cold hard stats though. I let them do the talking, rather than appealing to ethos. At least in the political forums. Here I definitely appeal to ethos because this is a completely off the record (I hope and pray) forum where I can have a bit of leeway with the rhetoric.

But yea, I am hugely biased. There is no doubt. Perhaps I am the most biased student in NY. Which is why it always shocks people to know that I train with Ross students and they're some of my best friends. They sort of understand I hate their school for political reasons. They're cool we still have chicken wings together.

Please explain how tracking a physician's success over the entire career is flawed? You seem to be telling me that it would be flawed to say SGU's fellowships make it superior because SGU students have superior residency performance and connections. Would you like to stand by your statement that residency performance is irrespective of your med school?

Simply noting that residency is based on your medical school performance. Fellowship is pretty unanimously agreed to be almost entirely independent of your medical school experience and based on your experience in residency. It would absolutely be flaws to say that SGU has fellowships. Forget applying qualitative measures to them. SGU doesn't have fellowships, period. Hospitals have them, SGU doesn't have any hospitals (this would apply to most any school unless the fellowship is literally in your home hospital). Once you're a hospital affiliate trying to get a fellowship, where you came from is rather irrelevant, fellowships are merit and opportunity based. You perform and you're in the right program, you get it.

I have yet to see any data comparing caribbean schools and DO schools for fellowship attainment. I would assume DO residents would flog the caribbean trained counterparts in such a comparison, but I honestly have no raw data to base that assumption on. If you want I could probably find it. All that data is out there, just a matter of collecting it, double checking the stats with a second reliable source, and comparing.

You couldn't be as biased as DocEspaña, and it's always good to have a current student's perspective.

I got into all of this not because of anything local to my own school, but because a few of my friends from undergrad went to Ross and SGU and were booted out. One made it through SGU to the end just now (he's a year older than me). They have been giving me info from the inside from the start. and at least one of them is very happy with his outcome, so its not *all* disgruntled students.

The irony when you read the match list: One FP residency in North Dakota out of 606 for SGU, one FP residency in South Dakota out of 227 for KCUMB.

Examples of SGU's 3rd and 4th year clinical sites are New Jersey Medical School, which boasts some of the most hands on clinical training in the country, and New York City Public Hospitals, at spots once coveted by NYC Medical Schools - part of the problem DocEspana is crusading to fix.

Part of the problem the AMA (as of this june. <crosses fingers>) is crusading to fix. As for the NY stuff, don't confuse politics with quality. The NYC HHC system, outside of bellevue, is a big mess of completely crappy hospitals. But its horrendous politics to have NY students training outside of our own state and then being yelled at for going into residencies outside of our own state when these programs are there. There is a PR component of all of this. From an academic point of view, I'd rather train in north jersey than an HHC hospital. From a "big picture" and "politics" point of view, New York students should have New York hospitals available to fulfill the promises made by these medical schools in their school mission statements.

And NJMS isn't any better. Please don't forget NJMS is famous for being completely and totally bankrupt, being constantly threatened with being bought by other universities every year, and recently had most of their deans thrown in prison for money laundering and bribery of public officials to try to get better funding for their run down hospitals. (Caveat: none of that applies to RWJ, which can print its own money, or so I'm told)

Originally Posted by theWUbear

606 matches in the SGU match list, assuming 7% attrition (self reported) (please cite another source or don't complain about the numbers), that means 93% matched with at least primary care. That is by no means major problems.

Out of the 606 matches, 303 were in primary care, meaning 50% went on to non-IM/FM/Peds matches. Compare that with the "clearly superior" kcumb - where 101 of 227 matches were in primary care - meaning 56% went to non-IM/FM/Peds.

I see 4 Einstein, 2 Baylor, 1 Mayo Clinic(!), 10 Sinai, 1 UCSF(!), 1 U Chicago match at SGU (top name programs).
I see 2 Baylor, 2 Mayo (!), 1 Barns Jewish, 1 Case at kcumb. Still not a clear advantage for either



There couldn't be anyone more biased than DocEspana, who as a committee chairman on the medical student society of NY actively lobbies against FMG's in New York, upset at their presence in New York City hospitals.



Please explain how tracking a physician's success over the entire career is flawed? You seem to be telling me that it would be flawed to say SGU's fellowships make it superior because SGU students have superior residency performance and connections. Would you like to stand by your statement that residency performance is irrespective of your med school?



You couldn't be as biased as DocEspaña, and it's always good to have a current student's perspective.



The irony when you read the match list: One FP residency in North Dakota out of 606 for SGU, one FP residency in South Dakota out of 227 for KCUMB.

Examples of SGU's 3rd and 4th year clinical sites are New Jersey Medical School, which boasts some of the most hands on clinical training in the country, and New York City Public Hospitals, at spots once coveted by NYC Medical Schools - part of the problem DocEspana is crusading to fix.

Dude, get outta here with this Jive. You basically just said that only half (roughly) of all SGU grads match to a US residency. IMO, that's pretty lame. If you're getting ready to matriculate there, then best of luck to you, but don't come here and tell us SGU is better than KCUMB or any other US med school.

Also. Cause I can't help myself and need a gif. Imagine I ended my (I feel) very metered and polite response to you with this....

The Discount DOuble Check!

not sure where all these numbers came from. Did you look through the list? It is almost entirely FM/peds/IM/EM. a few psych thrown in there but I wouldnt get too excited about that.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

not sure where all these numbers came from. Did you look through the list? It is almost entirely FM/peds/IM/EM. a few psych thrown in there but I wouldnt get too excited about that.

oh man. If i counted EM as primary care (there were a number of EM matches) we'd hit 85% or almost 90% primary care for the SGU 2011 class.

I dont see why we wouldnt consider it primary care.... maybe not by convention, but in practice they are pretty primary lol. Also not terribly difficult to match relatively speaking (not knocking it... I am considering EM) but it is what it is. Collectively their match list has an average USMLE score (by averages of specialty) of around 215.... (shot from the hip).

that isnt particularly good.

I've really been avoiding this beaten-to-death thread like the plague but I couldn't help but throw my 2 cents in now for a couple of things:

1. Totally agree with you about EM as primary care. Just wish the people with the primary care loan forgiveness programs did too.

2. Can we PLEASE get away from using primary care matches as a surrogate for the crappiness of one's school? That's about as misguided as all the morons who use US News and World Report's rankings, which are mostly based on research dollars, to gauge the quality of an education one gets at a medical school. If I took the 10 smartest people in my class, a solid half of them CHOSE to go into FM. I know that's crazy, and that on these boards everyone feels the need to develop a metric of Ophtho+Derm+Ortho+Hopkins/class size to have a penis-measuring contest about their school but please, GIVE IT UP!!! I promise that once you're actually out doing aways and comparing specialties and programs for possible residency landing spots that your perceptions are going to change drastically.

Who gives a flying fudgesicle about whether *insert DO school here* is better than *insert Caribbean.* The folks at my school make jokes about the people, at Carib schools and at other DO schools, like those whose names include universities that I've never heard of. They make fun of us - of New Jersey, our 400 letter acronym, and our sketchy former leadership. We wonder how the hell it's Philadelphia COM if it's in Georgia. We all make fun of Rocky Vista for being for-profit. It's all terribly biased and inexact, and every attempt to make it anything but is doomed to be an abject failure. People are going to come to their own conclusions, based on their interpretation of the data, but mostly their gut-feelings, and nothing more is being added to this argument that they won't be able to find 100 different spots on SDN. Please, just give it up and let this thread die.

/Rant off
//Poop joke

I understand your point, but especially in a school like SGU, the class size would indicate pretty low odds of those numbers by mere selection. Truth be told while DO schools often tout themselves as pro primary care, it is also very unlikely that the offset is due solely to preference. med school admissions is a big cluster fu....er.... fruitbasket upset so I would expect similar matching attempts over large samples.

Originally Posted by TheBlueBlazer

.

2. Can we PLEASE get away from using primary care matches as a surrogate for the crappiness of one's school? That's about as misguided as all the morons who use US News and World Report's rankings, which are mostly based on research dollars, to gauge the quality of an education one gets at a medical school. If I took the 10 smartest people in my class, a solid half of them CHOSE to go into FM. I know that's crazy, and that on these boards everyone feels the need to develop a metric of Ophtho+Derm+Ortho+Hopkins/class size to have a penis-measuring contest about their school but please, GIVE IT UP!!! I promise that once you're actually out doing aways and comparing specialties and programs for possible residency landing spots that your perceptions are going to change drastically.

Thank you!!! Last time I checked, IM was the gateway to a crap-ton of difficult fellowships. Also, some oddballs pick happiness/enjoyment over prestige. Those poor bastards... those poor happiness-seeking, aloof, full head of hair bastards...

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

I dont see why we wouldnt consider it primary care.... maybe not by convention, but in practice they are pretty primary lol. Also not terribly difficult to match relatively speaking (not knocking it... I am considering EM) but it is what it is. Collectively their match list has an average USMLE score (by averages of specialty) of around 215.... (shot from the hip).

that isnt particularly good.

Is it possible that this is changing? No unfilled EM spots in this year's match. Due to lack of expansion? Due to students thinking this is the new Derm as far as work hours go? I don't know. IM had a low number of unmatched spots this year (50, I believe). Don't know what all this means, but I think some of our common assumptions may soon be changing.

Originally Posted by theWUbear

606 matches in the SGU match list, assuming 7% attrition (self reported) (please cite another source or don't complain about the numbers), that means 93% matched with at least primary care. That is by no means major problems.

Out of the 606 matches, 303 were in primary care, meaning 50% went on to non-IM/FM/Peds matches. Compare that with the "clearly superior" kcumb - where 101 of 227 matches were in primary care - meaning 56% went to non-IM/FM/Peds.

I see 4 Einstein, 2 Baylor, 1 Mayo Clinic(!), 10 Sinai, 1 UCSF(!), 1 U Chicago match at SGU (top name programs).
I see 2 Baylor, 2 Mayo (!), 1 Barns Jewish, 1 Case at kcumb. Still not a clear advantage for either



There couldn't be anyone more biased than DocEspana, who as a committee chairman on the medical student society of NY actively lobbies against FMG's in New York, upset at their presence in New York City hospitals.



Please explain how tracking a physician's success over the entire career is flawed? You seem to be telling me that it would be flawed to say SGU's fellowships make it superior because SGU students have superior residency performance and connections. Would you like to stand by your statement that residency performance is irrespective of your med school?



You couldn't be as biased as DocEspaña, and it's always good to have a current student's perspective.



The irony when you read the match list: One FP residency in North Dakota out of 606 for SGU, one FP residency in South Dakota out of 227 for KCUMB.

Examples of SGU's 3rd and 4th year clinical sites are New Jersey Medical School, which boasts some of the most hands on clinical training in the country, and New York City Public Hospitals, at spots once coveted by NYC Medical Schools - part of the problem DocEspana is crusading to fix.

You say SGU matched 606 people that year. SGU takes 1100 students a year. Before going into the nitty gritty details about where and what specialties they matched in, why do you ignore the fact that about half of the class does not match either because they dropped out before the match or didn't match at all? This is huge. Let's say SGU matches more people into specialties (which they probably don't), that still does not overcome the fact that they place only 50% of their students into residency while DO schools, on average, place closer to 85-90% of their students into residency (this percentage also takes into account the people who drop out which is obviously much, much less at DO schools).

WHOA WUbear coming out of left field in defense of SGU!?! Kind of weird. I thought you were at NJMS in Newark (MD)? Really curious about the sudden appearance in a forum where you never (or rarely) post. What is the motivation behind this? Seriously.

Why neglect to see that 1100- 606= 494 up $#!+'s creek with paddles this deep ---> ] ???

Originally Posted by LSU Alex

Thank you!!! Last time I checked, IM was the gateway to a crap-ton of difficult fellowships. Also, some oddballs pick happiness/enjoyment over prestige. Those poor bastards... those poor happiness-seeking, aloof, full head of hair bastards...

The point in using that as a comparison is not to say that everyone doing lower competitive specialties was forced to do so by scores. It is that there is an expected number of people that would shoot for other more competitive specialties and these people either did not match or did not attempt. While the end result may seem similar the thinking is quite different

Originally Posted by Dharma

WHOA WUbear coming out of left field in defense of SGU!?! Kind of weird. I thought you were at NJMS in Newark (MD)? Really curious about the sudden appearance in a forum where you never (or rarely) post. What is the motivation behind this? Seriously.

Why neglect to see that 1100- 606= 494 up $#!+'s creek with paddles this deep ---> ] ???

I thought he did post bacc in new jersey and went to the islands. but I could totally see my assumption being wrong and he was just defending students he had met through his school. unfortunately he only use the propaganda numbers without checking in any of the actual statistics. that could very well be the case

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

The point in using that as a comparison is not to say that everyone doing lower competitive specialties was forced to do so by scores. It is that there is an expected number of people that would shoot for other more competitive specialties and these people either did not match or did not attempt. While the end result may seem similar the thinking is quite different

Wow, thank you. I never would have understood that unless you had spelled it out for me, but now that you have, it all makes PERFECT sense. *sarcasm*

Sorry for the snippiness. I understand the point, I'm just hoping to expose its fallacy. There is no "expected number of people that would shoot for other more competitive specialties" and claiming so exposes your lack of understanding of the true reality, as does your inference that scores are the primary factor for deciding someone's match. Yes, scores are a piece of the puzzle, but especially in the DO world, they are FAR from everything that determines what programs/specialties someone gets accepted to. Of the 10 people in our class who had the best boards/grades/etc, most are not going into something "competitive" because they CHOSE something else. I would literally kill myself if I was forced into a career of Ophtho, Derm, or Radiology. Sure, maybe I'm the exception, but I don't think so. Look at our match list. There are a TON of people in our class doing less-competitive things at solid places, and a lot of others that went to places with lesser reputations because their priority was geography.

I'm not going to belabor the point because I know the old adage about arguing on the internet and the Special Olympics, but I implore you to please stop this nonsense back and forth about this topic that has been beaten to death and is 3/4 decomposed already.

I'm not even going to bother reading through all the crap on this thread, but I think DOs are much better positioned for practicing in the US in the future than the caribs.

Within the next 5-6 years there will be another 400+ US MD students competing for ACGME residencies. Unless they start creating more residency slots, those caribbean students are going to get flooded out if they are anything but stellar.

At least DOs have their own residencies established. It probably couldn't support everyone, but it can catch some of the overflow for people who don't feel like fighting for the MD residency slots.

Originally Posted by TheBlueBlazer

Wow, thank you. I never would have understood that unless you had spelled it out for me, but now that you have, it all makes PERFECT sense. *sarcasm*

Sorry for the snippiness. I understand the point, I'm just hoping to expose its fallacy. There is no "expected number of people that would shoot for other more competitive specialties" and claiming so exposes your lack of understanding of the true reality, as does your inference that scores are the primary factor for deciding someone's match. Yes, scores are a piece of the puzzle, but especially in the DO world, they are FAR from everything that determines what programs/specialties someone gets accepted to. Of the 10 people in our class who had the best boards/grades/etc, most are not going into something "competitive" because they CHOSE something else. I would literally kill myself if I was forced into a career of Ophtho, Derm, or Radiology. Sure, maybe I'm the exception, but I don't think so. Look at our match list. There are a TON of people in our class doing less-competitive things at solid places, and a lot of others that went to places with lesser reputations because their priority was geography.

I'm not going to belabor the point because I know the old adage about arguing on the internet and the Special Olympics, but I implore you to please stop this nonsense back and forth about this topic that has been beaten to death and is 3/4 decomposed already.

I'm sorry, you dont get to call someone out and then pretend to take the high road. They teach that in D-bagging 101.

I did not imply that step1 score is the primary determinant in what specialty someone decides to go in to. In fact, I implied the exact opposite. I said only that low board scores can tend to limit. This is why I said the implication and your understanding were quite different. The only thing "exposed" here is your lack of reading comprehension. What I said was that it is unreasonable to assume that, out of 1000 or so students, that NONE of them were interested in competitive fields. The only implication that supports what you are saying is that all 600 of those who matched chose primary care, EM, or psych, based on no outside restrictions, an that the other 400 chose not to enter the match.
Saying someone with low scores cannot match a competitive field =/= saying people in non-competitive fields have low scores. THAT is a proper example of a fallacy, not the correlation above which was never extended as proof (only suggestion), and citing it as you did above is a strawman tactic.


If you actually take the time to think critically rather than responding based on emotional tangents while trying to root out phantom fallacies, you would understand that your argument "board scores do not determine what field someone wants to go into" is actually evidence for my point: we would expect to see a similar number of people who want to go into all areas of medicine as we do from other schools/regions.

So one more time, (you ready for it this time?)
having a high board score does not mean you have to go into derm/ortho/whatever.
Rather, having a low board score does typically mean you will not get into/be offered interview for derm/ortho/whatever.

You can cite exceptions if you want, but that does not change the rule and would only demonstrate a lack of understanding of averages to go along with this reading comp issue we looked at earlier.
So there it is. Vastly different from the implication you thought was being made. And I am actually rather sad that I had to hold your hand through it. But I will leave you here to take your own advice concerning mocking handicapped people and allow this thread to rest in pieces.

"But I will leave you here to take your own advice concerning mocking handicapped people and allow this thread to rest in pieces."

I have no idea what you are talking about MOCKING handicapped people. Here you go with your assumptions. I was implying that everyone who gives it their best is a winner in my book regardless of the actual outcome but the ones who get too wrapped up and take it too seriously always come off looking like tools. I have no idea what it was you might have bouncing around in your head. I wish you luck in your endeavors, I'm sure you'll be VERY successful based on how your people skills just ooze out of every pore.

and sorry I meant the Royal "You" when asking to please stop the nonsense. I did not mean to aim that at anyone in particular, though in retrospect, it probably fits equally either way.

*drops mic*