Looks like admins are finally realizing how pointless attending lecture is

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http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1202451

Its behind a paywall but I'd imagine most of you should be able to access it.

I never attend lectures (stopped going like 1/3 the way through the year). Much more efficient and productive for me to listen to them at 2pm at 1.5x-2.2x speed, rather than 9AM where I end up falling asleep or spacing out during the lecture itself.

Some of my friends are at schools where LECTURE ATTENDANCE IS MANDATORY. They have my deepest sympathy.

Didactic format still has its place, just not in the 6+ hrs/day content-delivery way it was 100 years ago. It's 2012... we do have computers and stuff...

Most school's aren't interested in taking a chance on something different though. Med students will figure out a way to learn the material either way, and they'll also complain either way, so why should the admin give a sh*t?

Great article, just read it.

Stanford's implementations sound great. I think medical education could be greatly improved and better doctor's could be trained because of it.

Originally Posted by Frank Nutter

Didactic format still has its place, just not in the 6+ hrs/day content-delivery way it was 100 years ago. It's 2012... we do have computers and stuff...

Most school's aren't interested in taking a chance on something different though. Med students will figure out a way to learn the material either way, and they'll also complain either way, so why should the admin give a sh*t?

I think they should care because they want to do a good job at educating their students. That should be high on the priority list of a good administration.

Looks like admins are finally realizing how pointless attending lecture is

The article wasn't pointing out class attendance was pointless, but instead that other technological tools could be used for traditional lecture material and that class time could be more focused on application.

Lecture is not pointless, but lecturers should speak faster. Because they cannot speak faster, we should be able to watch them at 1.5-2x speed.

I stopped going to class a month ago. Not because I hated it, but because I was just burning out. Being able to sleep in and watch at 1.5x at my leisure is keeping me from going crazy before step I in June.

I agree. The article definitely touched upon whether we need as a whole to look at the way medical students learn the material, or leave things as they are. It seems to me that most of the students on here agree that there is no point in attending lecture when it is video or audio recorded. I agree that going at one's own pace is much better than attending a live lecture.

I don't go to lecture or watch recorded lectures.

Waste of time to me.

People retain more through reading anyway, even if they think they don't.

Is it easy to ask questions to a video recording? Is 90 extra minutes a day really worth it?

Attending lecture isn't completely pointless. For some, yes. For others, no. Some people like to read, others like to interact.


For the record, I go to about 2/3rds of my lectures.

Originally Posted by Freakfarm0

Is it easy to ask questions to a video recording? Is 90 extra minutes a day really worth it?

Attending lecture isn't completely pointless. For some, yes. For others, no. Some people like to read, others like to interact.


For the record, I go to about 2/3rds of my lectures.

I think on most days its a waste of time. I go when the discussion is clinical but other than that i regret every time that I go.

There are a few old school profs at my school that still rely on the good ol' overhead projections plus they give blank notes so one must go to class to fill in just like in grade school. SMH

I neither attend nor watch lectures.

Qbanks. Looking up a question I got wrong makes me actually retain what I read. Otherwise reading has no point (for me at least).

Which is sort of what the article was talking about, as far as making the material more interactive.

I usually enjoy lectures IF the professor/lecturer has even a small bit of public speaking skills/eloquence. However early classes and the fact that we have a scribe service kind of decreases the motivation especially when you're halfway through second year and starting board preparations.

If they give you the notes, I don't see a point in lecture at all. When I did go, I would sigh and wish I would leave. besides, if you read the review books and the notes, that's ALL you really need.

That or they would hand out free food for making me stay

And I would never ask questions during a lecture...I always thought the ones who ask 100 questions during class tend to be really, really annoying. Professors have e-mail, I'd much rather do that after I read their notes and am still confused about something.

People still go to lecture this late in the year? What?

The problem is the people in charge grew up in a completely different era. When they had a question it involved making a physical trip to a library, using a cryptic numbering system to find a book and then flipping through pages. Oh and this was restricted to daytime hours. Also I don't think review books really existed back in 70s or 80s. Therefore, it made more sense to just ask the lecturers any questions you had.

However Now:

The internet + review books + ppts >> listening to recorded lectures >> attending lectures

The only reason I listen to the lectures at all is because sometimes the professor just puts up a table/diagram with no explanation, so we are essentially forced to watch to those. And ever so rarely they claim "this slide won't be tested on the exam" which is always great. But yeah, just going by the PPTs/review books seems to be the most efficient method. I wonder how much tuition would be reduced if school entered the 21st century?

Originally Posted by KnuxNole

If they give you the notes, I don't see a point in lecture at all. When I did go, I would sigh and wish I would leave. besides, if you read the review books and the notes, that's ALL you really need.

That or they would hand out free food for making me stay

And I would never ask questions during a lecture...I always thought the ones who ask 100 questions during class tend to be really, really annoying. Professors have e-mail, I'd much rather do that after I read their notes and am still confused about something.

Are there schools that do this? I think it would be awesome to have a full catered breakfast every morning during lecture. Breakfast buffet opens up at 8:45, you pig out on coffee, OJ, croissants, eggs, ham, turkey bacon, biscuits and gravy ... Then class at 9:00! With the cost of tuition it only makes sense.

I wish schools would do that....clubs/organizations give out free lunches. Talks in the hospital gives out free lunches. Grand rounds give out free breakfast.

But no, lectures don't comply

Originally Posted by KnuxNole

I wish schools would do that....clubs/organizations give out free lunches. Talks in the hospital gives out free lunches. Grand rounds give out free breakfast.

But no, lectures don't comply

It would be awesome, amiright? Honestly, free food is the answer to everything. Early afternoon lecture? Chipotle catered. Yummm...

Originally Posted by DancinSarah

The only reason I listen to the lectures at all is because sometimes the professor just puts up a table/diagram with no explanation, so we are essentially forced to watch to those. And ever so rarely they claim "this slide won't be tested on the exam" which is always great. But yeah, just going by the PPTs/review books seems to be the most efficient method. I wonder how much tuition would be reduced if school entered the 21st century?

It doesn't seem you even read the article you posted. The point wasn't to learn @ home to the exclusion of all else, it was to have more active learning sessions instead of traditional lectures. The examples they gave didn't involve anything that would cut tuition.

I guess the article wasn't really a good lead in to this discussion, but the thread title is appropriate. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find any administration supporting the general idea that students stay home 5 days a week and learn from PPT/review books, definitely not what they were suggesting. Although, I agree with everyone that it's superior to the status quo.

I think lectures are still important. The biggest problem now is that most of the time the lecturer completely misses the target audience and teaches in a really ineffective manner. How many lectures from PhDs on their current research is really going to be useful to medical education? How many times has a lecturer had 120-150 slides for a 50 minute powerpoint in which they slowly read slide by slide?

It's just so hard to find (mostly volunteers) enough people to teach so you can't really be picky about who is allowed to teach so you get these crap lectures.

Originally Posted by DancinSarah

I wonder how much tuition would be reduced if school entered the 21st century?

A miniscule amount. In medical school, most of the money you spend on tuition is going to the university hospital, insurance, and research.

Originally Posted by Freakfarm0

A miniscule amount. In medical school, most of the money you spend on tuition is going to the university hospital, insurance, and research.

Beyond me why med students tuition is funding research...

Originally Posted by Freakfarm0

A miniscule amount. In medical school, most of the money you spend on tuition is going to the university hospital, insurance, and research.

Interesting. Do you have any data regarding where tuition goes? I searched my school's website and couldn't find out where my tuition is going. Its going up 3% next year.

Originally Posted by DancinSarah

Interesting. Do you have any data regarding where tuition goes? I searched my school's website and couldn't find out where my tuition is going. Its going up 3% next year.

I don't. I'm using math.

Even if it was solely the medical students' responsibility to pay the professors' salary (its not), there would still be a ton of money left over from student tuition expenses. I think professors make most of their money from pulling in research grants and whatnot. I doubt MD guest lecturers get paid any significant value.

You could probably ask your bursar's office for more information.

Originally Posted by Freakfarm0

I don't. I'm using math.

Even if it was solely the medical students' responsibility to pay the professors' salary (its not), there would still be a ton of money left over from student tuition expenses. I think professors make most of their money from pulling in research grants and whatnot. I doubt MD guest lecturers get paid any significant value.

You could probably ask your bursar's office for more information.

Also remember schools are rarely "frugal" with anything. I remember when I last work in lab they paid 2K from some computer rep for a laptop. Needless to say I bought the same laptop a week early with a coupon code for $700 from dell.com

In short deans aren't spend as frugally as a business would, which produces gross amounts of waste and drives up cost. At most schools they have a separate financial aid, student affairs person, etc, etc. Again, a huge cost for a dude to email me to tell me to fill out my fasfa on-time...

Originally Posted by link2swim06

Beyond me why med students tuition is funding research...

Why? Where do you think the money comes from? It's either tuition or take it out of taxes of John Doe. It makes more sense to at least take it of tuition, which is at least tangentially related to research.

Originally Posted by CaptainSSO

Why? Where do you think the money comes from? It's either tuition or take it out of taxes of John Doe. It makes more sense to at least take it of tuition, which is at least tangentially related to research.

The fierce competition of an NIH grant makes it more likely that the recipient of research money will use it well. Basing research funding on tuition would have more to do with the attractiveness of a medical school rather than an open competition throughout the country.

Originally Posted by CaptainSSO

Why? Where do you think the money comes from? It's either tuition or take it out of taxes of John Doe. It makes more sense to at least take it of tuition, which is at least tangentially related to research.

Right but John Doe (aka the general public) and the school are the ones benefiting not me.

Its analogous to an automotive tech program student's tuition going GM to pay for R & D.

Plus when the numbers come down to it, an extra million dollars a year in research funding spread across a bunch of labs isn't really going to do alot more than exacerbate the debt of med students.

Originally Posted by DancinSarah

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1202451

Its behind a paywall but I'd imagine most of you should be able to access it.

I never attend lectures (stopped going like 1/3 the way through the year). Much more efficient and productive for me to listen to them at 2pm at 1.5x-2.2x speed, rather than 9AM where I end up falling asleep or spacing out during the lecture itself.

Some of my friends are at schools where LECTURE ATTENDANCE IS MANDATORY. They have my deepest sympathy.

No the old generation will never realize this. What's really happening here is the death/retirement in the old generation and gradual replacement with the new.

I don't know guys, I don't really like lectures, but I was in a problem-based learning curriculum in med school and it was far, far worse. Without a syllabus, direction or advice we didn't realize until we started preparing for Step 1 that we had wasted our time on far too few and far too many irrelevant topics. Not only that, but we had more scheduled time in classes and clinic than our didactic counterparts. Optional lecture seems the best method to me. You can always set up groups or read independently or whatever it is that works for you. Of course, most of the battle during the first year is figuring out how to study effectively.

Originally Posted by FunnyCurrent

No the old generation will never realize this. What's really happening here is the death/retirement in the old generation and gradual replacement with the new.

Very true.

Originally Posted by FunnyCurrent

No the old generation will never realize this. What's really happening here is the death/retirement in the old generation and gradual replacement with the new.

Unfortunately, you are probably right. I wonder if we will be the same?

Originally Posted by DancinSarah

Unfortunately, you are probably right. I wonder if we will be the same?

Not Applicable.

The previous generation's methods worked up until computers came to common use. Our methodology will not be out of date until they invent something like the Matrix.

Originally Posted by Roguelyn

I don't guys, I don't really like lectures, but I was in a problem-based learning curriculum in med school and it was far, far worse. Without a syllabus, direction or advice we didn't realize until we started preparing for Step 1 that we had wasted our time on far too few and far too many irrelevant topics. Not only that, but we had more scheduled time in classes and clinic than our didactic counterparts. Optional lecture seems the best method to me. You can always set up groups or read independently or whatever it is that works for you. Of course, most of the battle during the first year is figuring out how to study effectively.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that PBL works

Originally Posted by FunnyCurrent

I don't think anyone here has suggested that PBL works

Actually I have seen someone post on how awesome PBL was at their school, but it was organized well. I'm guessing that's the 1% of the time that PBL actually works....

Roguelyn, agree 100% with your last sentence.

Originally Posted by Lbgem

Actually I have seen someone post on how awesome PBL was at their school, but it was organized well. I'm guessing that's the 1% of the time that PBL actually works....

Roguelyn, agree 100% with your last sentence.

Myuu frequently praises the PBL at Case, perhaps that's where you heard it?

I like the idea of using class time for something other than sitting in a chair and looking at a projector screen and listening to a dude talk. I can sit in my chair at home, look at my computer screen, and listen to the same dude talk and even take breaks to take a walk outside while I'm at it.

Originally Posted by Narmerguy

Myuu frequently praises the PBL at Case, perhaps that's where you heard it?

I like the idea of using class time for something other than sitting in a chair and looking at a projector screen and listening to a dude talk. I can sit in my chair at home, look at my computer screen, and listen to the same dude talk and even take breaks to take a walk outside while I'm at it.

Maybe. It was one of the posters on SDN; I was too lazy to look up which one. And I agree with you. I'd actually go to class if it were structured like the paper suggests. The clinical/relevant cases would make it a lot more interesting + I couldn't get that from a book.

Originally Posted by Freakfarm0

Is it easy to ask questions to a video recording? Is 90 extra minutes a day really worth it?

Attending lecture isn't completely pointless. For some, yes. For others, no. Some people like to read, others like to interact.


For the record, I go to about 2/3rds of my lectures.

Your first question hits on a good point: I'm sure that lecture is useful for those people who like to hear themselves talk....

Originally Posted by Lbgem

Actually I have seen someone post on how awesome PBL was at their school, but it was organized well. I'm guessing that's the 1% of the time that PBL actually works....

Roguelyn, agree 100% with your last sentence.

Yes, they really need to stop letting MS Administrators from PBLs post on these boards...

Originally Posted by Freakfarm0

Is it easy to ask questions to a video recording? Is 90 extra minutes a day really worth it?

Attending lecture isn't completely pointless. For some, yes. For others, no. Some people like to read, others like to interact.


For the record, I go to about 2/3rds of my lectures.

How many people actually ask questions? I don't think the majority of people in class have asked a single question all year. Plus, hitting pause and searching google is pretty efficient too.

Originally Posted by boggvir

How many people actually ask questions? I don't think the majority of people in class have asked a single question all year. Plus, hitting pause and searching google is pretty efficient too.

It doesn't mean they don't have questions.

I accost the professor after lecture about 25% of the time. It's fun.

The students that ask questions are usually the ones that understand the material the best.

I don't do it, and I dislike when other students do it, but its the truth.

Originally Posted by Morsetlis

It doesn't mean they don't have questions.

I accost the professor after lecture about 25% of the time. It's fun.

Well good, but that's not the vast majority of students. Clearly if 150 people each asked the professor a question after lecture 25% of time...it wouldn't really work.

They may have questions but most either A) look it up themselves, B) Ask someone they study with , C) email the professor. You don't represent the vast majority of students I think. If this works for you, that's great and you should keep doing it but a lot of us would be just fine without ever going to lecture.