I Just don't understand optometry profession...

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Honestly, what is the deal with all of these people bashing the profession of optometry for its future? I have looked at so many different websites for careers and all of them project that the profession is likely to grow faster than average compared to other professions, and that the median income is around $90,000...but why do we all see people telling us there's no future for this business and that the pay is not good?

This quite frankly doesn't make any sense to me...like educated people dealing with stats and careers are saying its a growing profession while only a few people on here are saying it's completely dying. If optometry was such a joke then why do you need 4 years of optometry school to become an OD - I don't feel that Walmart, Lenscrafters, etc. could replace ODs that can actually diagnose and treat complications/diseases of the eye.

I'm sorry to be ranting, but honestly I think it is so difficult to get a consensus of this profession. I am going to be a junior in undergrad and have been going back and forth trying to decide on what I want to do with my career (in terms of opt, PA, DO, etc) and this lack of certainty of the profession is just frustrating me...

There could be many different reasons for this.

- There are some places where there are more ODs than are needed. Now is that everywhere as you would be lead to believe from this site? No. But there are areas of saturation. That coupled with the recession can cause people to feel doom and gloom.

- Some people here consider places like walmart and AB to be terrible and not even possible for consideration. Many of the 90K+ jobs would be in these places so they use their hatred of these places to discount that avg. salary completely. The thing that these people don't realize is not every OD feels that these places are that bad. No it's not like traditional optometry but shockingly enough some people actually don't feel like it's terrible to work in these environments. It's all about perspective. Some people just can't stomach it and others have no problem with it at all. To those that don't have a problem with it, they are still satisfied with their profession either way. As an example, I know of someone who makes about $250K working at a Walmart. She's perfectly happy with her position and would prefer it to a private practice. She doesn't have any of the risk or overhead of a PP. The techs, equipment, and products are all paid for and provided by Walmart. She has to pay rent and obviously the more days she takes off the more money she stands to lose so she doesn't take many days off. She is fully aware though that her situation is not the norm because the Walmart she is in happens to be one that is currently in a high growth area. If you go to one a few towns over, then you might not have the amount of traffic that this walmart drives. This also happens to be in a suburb of what many here would consider to be a saturated area. I know of someone else that works at an AB and they are perfectly fine with it. They see a lot of people but to them it's low stress and pays well. What that means is that although people like to give the impression here that everyone that isn't in a PP is miserable, that is not the case. Different people have different tolerances for work. Also there are many who don't want the risk and devotion required to be successful in a PP. Not everyone is the same. People perceive stress differently. Some would say that PP is more stressful and others would say the opposite.

- Some people here have certain expectations for what optometry should be. Some aren't able to accept change and want optometry to be like it was 20-30 years ago. Other people can flow with change easier and still be successful. It's all relative.

- Some people went into Optometry as a secondary profession. They wanted to go into MD or Dentistry but had some reason why they didn't or couldn't. Many of these people are easy to pick out because they openly talk down about their own profession in an attempt to run people off so that perhaps things will become more to their liking in the place where they feel they are forced to stay. These are the ones that encourage people to go into other professions based purely off of their GPA without giving a thought that perhaps that person just doesn't want to be an MD or doesn't want to work inside of peoples mouths for a living.

- This next one is a bit odd and I'm hesitant to mention it, but it's come up on these forums several times so I guess it is what it is. I've noticed that there are some males here who have a near misogynistic view of women in this profession. They often insinuate (or flat out say) that women are one of the causes of the decline in pay for ODs because they are more flexible on hours and optometry offers a good work/life balance. This small contingent of males seem to have some serious personal ego problems and make one wonder if perhaps they actually feel a bit emasculated by this profession. They're usually the ones that are looking for any excuse they can find to explain why they haven't been able to be as successful as they felt they should be entitled to.

Overall, You have to take what ever you read here with a grain of salt. It represents a part of the profession but it doesn't represent everything. There's some things with truths in them and there's other things that have been distorted with near Tea Party like logic. It's up to you to be smart enough to sift through what you believe to be true and what you believe to be exaggeration.

Originally Posted by itsallgood19

Honestly, what is the deal with all of these people bashing the profession of optometry for its future? I have looked at so many different websites for careers and all of them project that the profession is likely to grow faster than average compared to other professions, and that the median income is around $90,000...but why do we all see people telling us there's no future for this business and that the pay is not good?

This quite frankly doesn't make any sense to me...like educated people dealing with stats and careers are saying its a growing profession while only a few people on here are saying it's completely dying. If optometry was such a joke then why do you need 4 years of optometry school to become an OD - I don't feel that Walmart, Lenscrafters, etc. could replace ODs that can actually diagnose and treat complications/diseases of the eye.

I'm sorry to be ranting, but honestly I think it is so difficult to get a consensus of this profession. I am going to be a junior in undergrad and have been going back and forth trying to decide on what I want to do with my career (in terms of opt, PA, DO, etc) and this lack of certainty of the profession is just frustrating me...

Wow. Thanks for the balanced response, netmag. I see a lot of people ragging on the corporate/retail aspect of optometry. What I don't see a lot of are specifics as to why that area is so hated. I did see a post the other day that mentioned you are rushed with your patients (sometimes 8 in an hour) and they watch your lunch breaks like a hawk. To those with firsthand experience, is this true? 64 patients a day? Seems more than a bit exaggerated. But I'm also open to the fact that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Seems like there might be an hour or two once in a while where you see that many patients, but I have a hard time believing that's the norm.

Outside of those two items, it seems the overwhelming complaint about corporate optometry is the lack of prestige. If that assumption is correct, what kind of prestige were you expecting with optometry? If you're getting a fair wage that enables you to pay back your loans ($90k+ provides you that) and you're practicing your craft (even if it's almost always "which is better... 1 or 2), then you're actually pretty lucky.

Again, I'm just a pre-opt and I'm very open to all comments on this matter.

Originally Posted by itsallgood19

Honestly, what is the deal with all of these people bashing the profession of optometry for its future? I have looked at so many different websites for careers and all of them project that the profession is likely to grow faster than average compared to other professions, and that the median income is around $90,000...but why do we all see people telling us there's no future for this business and that the pay is not good?

Here's the problem - you're reading data that are all put out by organizations that benefit from you choosing optometry. The AOA is the main source of data for the BLS report and many career sites quote the BLS data. Will optometry "grow faster than average?" Absolutely. So does a cancerous tumor, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. The profession is growing, not because it needs to to satisfy a need for medical eye care, it's growing out of control because corporate entities like WM, Luxottica, America's Best, etc, all benefit from having thousands of excess ODs to offer low-quality jobs to. Right now, they need ODs to sell their products in the US, but that is not likely to be true forever.

As far as the median income, this is one of the main points where prospects get lied to and deceived the most. The median income accounts for all practicing ODs. There are some enormously successful ODs out there in practice right now. You cannot and should not base your future on what you see in their offices. They created those situations decades ago when conditions in eye care were vastly different than they are today. Starting pay for ODs hasn't risen much, if at all, in the last 15 years or so, and inflation has not had any sympathy. The profession is growing and growing and the problem is, there's not enough structure to support all the extra weight. As sure as the earth is round, you can bet on both starting pay and top pay for those entering the profession now, dropping over the next decade. There can be no other outcome. It's simple supply and demand. If you increase the supply of something drastically without increasing its need, the price will drop. To date, commercial entities have had to offer attractive salaries and benefits packages to lure new grads away from more respectable positions. The need for that is diminishing and many new grads are finding themselves "thankful" just to have that great job at America's Best seeing 8 patients an hour (yes, you really do see 8 patients an hour there). You're going to see pay for new ODs in commercial positions drop. Why? Because it can. There is nothing driving corporations to pay you more since they don't have to. When there's twice as many ODs in the country than are needed, you're going to see a lot of underemployed/unemployed ODs.

So, you can listen to a pharmacist who comes on here and carries on for miles about optometry, despite the fact that he knows very little of what he's talking about. If I want to ask someone about what it's like to be an airline pilot, I won't go to an accountant and ask him for his opinion. But this is America and any crazy pharmacist can come on OD forums and start throwing around information like he actually knows something. If an OD were to go onto the pharmacy forum, or the surgical residency forum, or an auto mechanics' forum, and start billowing hot air about topics that he poorly understands, then he should expect and deserve the same ridicule that our resident internet magazine pharmacist brings on himself.

Originally Posted by itsallgood19

This quite frankly doesn't make any sense to me...like educated people dealing with stats and careers are saying its a growing profession while only a few people on here are saying it's completely dying. If optometry was such a joke then why do you need 4 years of optometry school to become an OD - I don't feel that Walmart, Lenscrafters, etc. could replace ODs that can actually diagnose and treat complications/diseases of the eye.

The people who write those stats are government workers who are paid to sit in a cubicle and collect data for a 1000 page book on careers. Much of it, if you actually break it apart, is absolutely useless, although not all of it is. It's not written by people in the field. The information is fed to the BLS by the AOA and the numerous optometry schools - organizations that benefit tremendously from getting you to sign on the dotted line.

Originally Posted by itsallgood19

I'm sorry to be ranting, but honestly I think it is so difficult to get a consensus of this profession. I am going to be a junior in undergrad and have been going back and forth trying to decide on what I want to do with my career (in terms of opt, PA, DO, etc) and this lack of certainty of the profession is just frustrating me...

Go out and talk to as many ODs as you can, preferably newer ones. Don't be distracted by some guy in his 50s or 60s who drives a porsche. You're not buying the optometry that he bought into. It's a different profession entirely. It's great that medical eye care is emphasized so much more now in OD programs than it was 20 or 30 years ago, but the fact is, most grads won't be using the medical information they learn in school and residency. There are too many ODs to allow for all of them, or even a large portion of them to practice full scope optometry. What lay ahead for most grads now days and beyond, is commercial optometry. If you're ok with spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a degree that will allow you to essentially be a glorified refracting technician, then you'll probably be fine in optometry. There are worse jobs out there, for sure, but they don't cost as much in time or money.

All I'm saying is, if you choose optometry because of the image that's portrayed to you by the AOA and the schools, or what you see in some older OD's office, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Looks can be deceiving. I would recommend both meeting with ODs in person and calling them over the phone. You'd be surprised at the difference in opinions that you get from people who aren't standing in front of you. I've heard from quite a number of prospects that phone conversations with ODs they will never meet seem to be a lot more "realistic" than conversations that take place in person. Just something to keep in mind. Optometry loves to hide its dirty laundry from people who would jump into a very cold pool.

Originally Posted by netmag

The thing that these people don't realize is not every OD feels that these places are that bad. No it's not like traditional optometry but shockingly enough some people actually don't feel like it's terrible to work in these environments.

Netmag, it is deplorable that you appear to be passively portraying yourself as an OD, leading prospective optometry students to believe that you somehow understand the details of what it is like to work in a place like America's Best. You don't. If you want to comment on what it's like to work in a CVS pharmacy, have at it, but leave the optometry comments to those who actually work in the field. For my duration on this forum, I have been baffled as to why a pharmacist would choose to spend time writing posts about a profession he has never experienced - or why he would repeatedly show up, make false posts about other posters, and the disappear for weeks like a fart in the wind. Why is that, netmag? I have listed too many false accusations to count and it's funny that you've never once been able to come back and defend your claims.

I know at least 10 docs who work for, or have worked for America's Best or some low-end equivalent. They make Lenscrafters look like the Mayo Clinic. They are the absolute garbage bin of optometry and I can guarantee you that NO ONE who works in one of those places enjoys their work. You can't be strapped to 60+ patients per day, "comprehensive exams with CL fittings" and be even marginally satisfied with your work. It can't happen. But you go ahead telling readers of this thread that "It's not that bad." When they're sitting in a box refracting 200 people per day for 80K/yr, I hope they look back on this thread and remember that they were suckered into optometry by an optometrically obsessed pharmacist.

Originally Posted by netmag

- This next one is a bit odd and I'm hesitant to mention it, but it's come up on these forums several times so I guess it is what it is. I've noticed that there are some males here who have a near misogynistic view of women in this profession. They often insinuate (or flat out say) that women are one of the causes of the decline in pay for ODs because they are more flexible on hours and optometry offers a good work/life balance. This small contingent of males seem to have some serious personal ego problems and make one wonder if perhaps they actually feel a bit emasculated by this profession. They're usually the ones that are looking for any excuse they can find to explain why they haven't been able to be as successful as they felt they should be entitled to.

A perfect example of someone who is offering advice, but yet is totally out of touch with reality. I hear plenty of negativity about optometry, chief, but I almost never hear anyone discuss the idea that women are somehow collapsing the profession. That you would even spend a paragraph discussing it as some major factor is demonstrative of your total lack of understanding of the dynamics of what's going on in the profession. There are more women in optometry now than there was in 1980. It's hardly contributing to the sinking the profession.

Part time employment is becoming more and more common for new OD grads, both male and female. It's a result of the profession being overcrowded, not that women are mounting some sort of take over. Personally, I think the only reason you mentioned it was so you could use the word "misogynistic" in a sentence.

Here's the thing....

I can say with certainty that after spending tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and pouring hours upon hours into mind bending work, you will NOT be satisfied coming out of school and working evenings and weekends at America's Best seeing 6-8 patients an hour for $90000 a year with a high school graduate for a supervisor.

You may not want the hassles and aggrivations of running a practice. That's fine, though that is still where the real money in this industry is.

You might THINK you will be content at America's Best because most people entering graduate school have not had jobs beyond waitressing, college work study and working at Hot Topic at the mall so the idea of $90000 sounds pretty good but that fades incredibly quickly.

As far as $250,000 at Walmart, I would be interested in knowing how anyone knows that. Did they tell you that? Did you see their tax returns? Everyone can bluster and blather about their income. Most people lie through their teeth. Also, that person can be let go by Walmart at any time for any reason with a simple 30 days notice.

To make that kind of money in a Walmart environment almost universally requires a doctor to have multiple leases and to employ an army of worker bee ODs for $400 per day. If you're the lease holding doctor, lucky you. Those situations are few and far between. Most Walmart ODs are of the worker bee OD variety. If you're ok with that, have at it.

What sources are best for unbiased research for pre-opt students? In reviewing these forums I've seen that the AOA fuels the BLS findings and that information is skewed. I've seen at least 2 current ODs say that other ODs are prone to dishonesty when discussing the profession with prospective students (due to an unwillingness to admit they themselves made a poor decision). I have a friend that is a recent grad that I trust, but outside of that what are the best sources for unbiased information?

I run two Walmart leases right now with close to those #'s. I employee one full time secretary, one PT secretary, and an associate OD part time. Overhead is around 70k a year.

KHE is correct the best money is holding the leases, or owning your own office. I normally see up to three patients an hour. An optometrist would burn out very fast seeing 8/hr. The only way I would consider seeing 8 is to have techs doing retractions, & coming in to do SL exam, DFE's. Similar to Ophthalmology work flow.

$250,000 from Wal-mart. That's funny. Made my day.

I'm in private practice. I made $510,400 last year. Absolutely true statement. Look at my Officemate software. That's exactly what I billed.

But wait. That's what I billed to insurance and patients. I actually got less than that since insurances are known to be a bit on the cheap side. Quite a bit less. Maybe $400,000 I actually 'made'. (estimate since I don't have the numbers in front of me).

But wait. There the overhead of running a practice. Employees ain't cheap. Like a 70% overhead. So that really leaves me with $120,000. So I made $120 grand. SWEET!

But wait, there's those pesky taxes we've talked about before ( plus any business loans and school loans). After all that, you might be left with $60,000 you actually take to the bank after 15 years in practice.

Point being when someone tells you what they make, it's all relative.

Did I make $510,400 or did I make $400,000? Or did I make $120,000? Or did I make $60,000?

They could be telling you 'total billed' (lots like to do that to make them self look good). It could be after practice expenses but before taxes. Could be after taxes.

That's why without seeing their actual tax returns no on can say "I know Dr. so and so makes $250,0000 last year"!
Also all the reported OD income you see in books and articles are self-reported. The AOA (back when I was a member) used to send surveys every couple of years asking you to report your income and number of pts. You don't think OD lie??

P.S. These are not my exact numbers.......but they used to be earlier in practice.

Originally Posted by dylennon

What sources are best for unbiased research for pre-opt students? In reviewing these forums I've seen that the AOA fuels the BLS findings and that information is skewed. I've seen at least 2 current ODs say that other ODs are prone to dishonesty when discussing the profession with prospective students (due to an unwillingness to admit they themselves made a poor decision). I have a friend that is a recent grad that I trust, but outside of that what are the best sources for unbiased information?

From my shadowing experience there are positive and negative ODs. One guy tried to steer me away from optometry and told me to apply to DO school. Another guy said optometry is great and he loves it. Then I mentioned the negative OD to the positive OD and the positive OD told me, "What he is 40? And he doesn't have his own practice by now? There's something wrong with that." and then he just shook his head in pity.

I'd say government websites are the most objective sources out there but I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

I'd say government websites are the most objective sources out there but I could be wrong.

As usual, you are.......wrong, that is. Government websites are probably the least useful places to get real information on professions, aside from the schools themselves.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

"What he is 40? And he doesn't have his own practice by now? There's something wrong with that." and then he just shook his head in pity.

The number of practices available for purchase will be a tiny fraction of the numbers of ODs being spewed out into the profession. This virtually guarantees that what I've been saying all along will come true - that most grads from now on will be heading right into the commercial gallows.

I'm surprised you're still unable to see what's right in front of you, even after all this time. Shnurek, you're foolish to look at older, established ODs and think you're on par with them as far as opportunity. You're not. Ask that "positive" OD what he paid for his schooling. Ask him when he bought/started his office. Optometry was a very different profession when he started. It's not that way anymore, but prospects like you see what they have done and think you can repeat it. Good luck with that.

Of course any OD over age 50, who owns their own practice will tell you Optometry is great. They want that young OD to come back in 8 years to work at dirt cheap fees, & then buy their practice,

I don't doubt that many of the dissenters here are genuinely dissatisfied with the profession and with their personal experiences in optometry. But, you must also consider that by nature a forum such as this will attract those who are unhappy more than it will attract those who are satisfied. I know several optometrists (several of whom are young and working at a place like Wal*Mart) who seem to be very pleased with the profession, with both the line of work and their financial gains. They are not posting on forums about their jobs. When I am unhappy with a product, I am much more likely to contact the manufacturer than if I am happy with the product. Most people are this way, and I think that something similar is going on with this forum.

From what I can tell, there also seems to be a relatively small number of posters on this forum, so that will also come into play. My advice is to talk with some people face-to-face. Go to Wal*Mart and Lenscrafters and ask the doctors about their experiences. They won't have any good reason to lie. When I did shadowing, I had doctors give me the good and the bad about the profession. I always thought that everyone was very honest, and despite some of their gripes (like the headaches that billing insurance companies can cause), I still decided to go into optometry. Who knows? I might be back here in four years talking about how I chose the wrong path, but I honestly think that I'll be out working and enjoying life. I tend to have a positive personality, and I think that will help you in any profession.

Different careers are for different people. One of my best friends really likes his job as a pharmacist, while my cousin does not seem to be too thrilled with the career. Don't let an Internet forum decide your life.

I'm sure this post will be quoted and criticized, and you're welcome to do so.

Originally Posted by BeesKnees22

I know several optometrists (several of whom are young and working at a place like Wal*Mart) who seem to be very pleased with the profession, with both the line of work and their financial gains. They are not posting on forums about their jobs.

Good for them. As I've said before many times, if someone is ok with paying hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of study for a glorified refracting optician's certificate, go for it. There are worse jobs out there than flipping dials at WM, but just know what you're paying for will not be you're doing at work. WM does not want you treating patients, they want you signing Rxs for glasses and contacts. As long as you understand that, I'm sure you'll be thrilled with your WM career. You may want to invest in some noise canceling earphones because the 30 second Miley Cyrus clips played repeatedly for 8 hours in the TV section right outside your door can get tiring to listen to during the hour or two wait between patients at some locations.

Originally Posted by BeesKnees22

From what I can tell, there also seems to be a relatively small number of posters on this forum, so that will also come into play. My advice is to talk with some people face-to-face. Go to Wal*Mart and Lenscrafters and ask the doctors about their experiences. They won't have any good reason to lie. When I did shadowing, I had doctors give me the good and the bad about the profession. I always thought that everyone was very honest, and despite some of their gripes (like the headaches that billing insurance companies can cause), I still decided to go into optometry.

And call them on the phone too. You do not seem to understand that many professionals are less likely to sugar coat things on the phone, when they don't have a wide-eyed, bushy-tailed prospect standing in front of them.

Originally Posted by BeesKnees22

Who knows? I might be back here in four years talking about how I chose the wrong path, but I honestly think that I'll be out working and enjoying life. I tend to have a positive personality, and I think that will help you in any profession.

Very likely to happen if you're not unlike most of the students I work with. Great during 1st/2nd year....a little reality sets in during 3rd, more during 4th, and then when they graduate and start realizing they have to move 9 states away from home to take 4 PT jobs to assemble a FT schedule, the pain sets in. If you're ok with that, go crazy and jump into optometry.

Originally Posted by BeesKnees22

Different careers are for different people. One of my best friends really likes his job as a pharmacist, while my cousin does not seem to be too thrilled with the career. Don't let an Internet forum decide your life.

You seem to have already decided that you're going to squeeze optometry into a the mold you want it to fit into. That's fine, but realize that it is not what you hope it to be. When you finally arrive at an understanding, you will join many thousands of ODs who have come before you and will come after you.

you know what I don't understand...how after all those years in training/school at these schools they offer no networking/connections to help those when they get their OD. Are you telling me the professional schools won't help you out - what if you do additional training (similar to a residency or whatever - not sure if ODs can receive residencies)? But seriously, i'm sure you met profs/students that know where the private practices are in need of more OD help.

Originally Posted by itsallgood19

you know what I don't understand...how after all those years in training/school at these schools they offer no networking/connections to help those when they get their OD. Are you telling me the professional schools won't help you out - what if you do additional training (similar to a residency or whatever - not sure if ODs can receive residencies)? But seriously, i'm sure you met profs/students that know where the private practices are in need of more OD help.

Most schools do have some form of assistance - the problem is not a lack of help on the schools' part; it's that there aren't enough private practice opportunities to help even a small fraction of their students. You can't make gold out of thin air and you can't manufacture private practice associateships in practices that can't afford one. Most private ODs right now cannot afford to hire a FT OD to build their practice, even if the potential were there. That's where the oversupply comes in. Too many docs, not enough patients. The schools can't help the very problem they're feeding by helping a few lucky souls find the diamonds in the rough.

Originally Posted by Jason K

Most schools do have some form of assistance - the problem is not a lack of help on the schools' part; it's that there aren't enough private practice opportunities to help even a small fraction of their students. You can't make gold out of thin air and you can't manufacture private practice associateships in practices that can't afford one. Most private ODs right now cannot afford to hire a FT OD to build their practice, even if the potential were there. That's where the oversupply comes in. Too many docs, not enough patients. The schools can't help the very problem they're feeding by helping a few lucky souls find the diamonds in the rough.

When I was talking to SCCO's financial aid lady, I was asking what happens if students default on a loan and she said in her 40 years no one has ever defaulted...so I'm wondering how is it that with 200k loans and the lacking job prospects, no one has ever NOT been able to pay back their loans?

Originally Posted by Optomchick

When I was talking to SCCO's financial aid lady, I was asking what happens if students default on a loan and she said in her 40 years no one has ever defaulted...so I'm wondering how is it that with 200k loans and the lacking job prospects, no one has ever NOT been able to pay back their loans?

1st, they have no way of claiming that they know how many defaults there have been. They don't collect comprehensive data on that. There's a huge difference between "I haven't heard of any..." and "There have been none."

2nd, when you're on IBR, you can make as little as ZERO dollars in repayment and maintain your good standing in the eyes of the lender. Your interest mounts and mounts, and you stand by in blissful ignorance that your balance is ever rising. Please, if you learn nothing else from me, just know that the schools aren't there to give you unbiased information. They're there to collect your money. When the 25 or 20 year period is up under IBR, all is forgiven, even if you have paid nothing into repayment for the entire term. Oh, except don't forget that you owe capital gains taxes on the entire amount forgiven, which would be in the hundreds of thousands (and it's all due the year of forgiveness). Better hope Owe-bama doesn't get the capital gains tax raised as he wants to, or you could be paying 30% or more of many hundreds of thousands of dollars.

3rd, grads know they have no choice but to pay their loans before any other debt. Defaulting on student loan debt creates much more of a nightmare for you than defaulting on just about any other type of loan. If it means you must take a garbage bin optometry job at America's Best (if you can find one), then that's what you'll do. That happens to be what a large majority of new grads are doing today. There's a difference between outright unemployment faced by newly graduated attorneys these days, and vastly UNDER-employed OD grads that are entering the workforce today. It won't be long before new OD grads will be facing the same unemployment problems faced by new attorneys. The numbers guarantee it. Just because you receive training on fancy equipment that's placed in the schools' clinics to impress you and your parents, doesn't mean you'll ever use it once you graduate.

Originally Posted by Jason K

1st, they have no way of claiming that they know how many defaults there have been. They don't collect comprehensive data on that. There's a huge difference between "I haven't heard of any..." and "There have been none."

2nd, when you're on IBR, you can make as little as ZERO dollars in repayment and maintain your good standing in the eyes of the lender. Your interest mounts and mounts, and you stand by in blissful ignorance that your balance is ever rising. Please, if you learn nothing else from me, just know that the schools aren't there to give you unbiased information.

3rd, grads know they have no choice but to pay their loans. If that means taking garbage optometry jobs to do it, that's what they do. That happens to be what a large majority of new grads are doing today. There's a difference between outright unemployment faced by newly graduated attorneys these days, and vastly UNDER-employed OD grads that are entering the workforce today. It won't be long before new OD grads will be facing the same unemployment problems faced by new attorneys. The numbers guarantee it.

She's the head of financial aid and she had a lot of data to back up the claim. Basically, I figure it's #3 on your list, that ODs are just sucking it up and working at Walmart, or #2 that they're just doing the 30 year repayment...either way, I found it kind of interesting that no one has been ****ed over and defaulted according to her data. I don't see why she would lie, she has no motivation to sell me SCCO.

Originally Posted by Optomchick

She's the head of financial aid and she had a lot of data to back up the claim. Basically, I figure it's #3 on your list, that ODs are just sucking it up and working at Walmart, or #2 that they're just doing the 30 year repayment...either way, I found it kind of interesting that no one has been ****ed over and defaulted according to her data. I don't see why she would lie, she has no motivation to sell me SCCO.

She works for SCCO. She has EVERY motivation to sell you on it. Where will her job be if enrollment declines and students start choosing other professions? I wonder if that might have a little to do with why SCCO recently added a PA program. Sounds like they're already creating a backup plan for when OD enrollment drops. I don't care if she's the president of SCCO, she has no way of making that claim. That's like going to the Honda dealership and having the salesperson say they've never had a car they sold break down on the highway. I'm not on here saying there are thousands or even hundreds of ODs defaulting. I doubt many new grads are defaulting. For one thing, there's the grace period, but on top of that, there's no shortage of crap jobs out there. Sure, they may be PT or in some rat hole Rx mill that's thousands or hundreds of miles from where they want to live, but a new grad faced with no income or one that pays the bills, unless he's a fool, will take whatever he can get. Like I said, we're not at the point yet where new grads face rampant unemployment. It's coming, but it's not here yet.

Flip the tables. You say the FT employee at SCCO has no motivation to sell you on SCCO. Well, I'm on this forum, currently almost out of the profession completely. I have absolutely no reason to "unsell" you from the profession, other than to try and let people know that what they are buying into is not actually what they think it is. Optometry is a profession that faces a grim future for its young'ins. If you choose to ignore that, it's your choice, but the numbers to support what I and others are saying are right in front of you.

Originally Posted by Jason K

She works for SCCO. She has EVERY motivation to sell you on it. Where will her job be if enrollment declines and students start choosing other professions? I wonder if that might have a little to do with why SCCO recently added a PA program. Sounds like they're already creating a backup plan for when OD enrollment drops. I don't care if she's the president of SCCO, she has no way of making that claim. That's like going to the Honda dealership and having the salesperson say they've never had a car they sold break down on the highway. I'm not on here saying there are thousands or even hundreds of ODs defaulting. I doubt many new grads are defaulting. For one thing, there's the grace period, but on top of that, there's no shortage of crap jobs out there. Sure, they may be PT or in some rat hole Rx mill that's thousands or hundreds of miles from where they want to live, but a new grad faced with no income or one that pays the bills, unless he's a fool, will take whatever he can get. Like I said, we're not at the point yet where new grads face rampant unemployment. It's coming, but it's not here yet.

Flip the tables. You say the FT employee at SCCO has no motivation to sell you on SCCO. Well, I'm on this forum, currently almost out of the profession completely. I have absolutely no reason to "unsell" you from the profession, other than to try and let people know that what they are buying into is not actually what they think it is. Optometry is a profession that faces a grim future for its young'ins. If you choose to ignore that, it's your choice, but the numbers to support what I and others are saying are right in front of you.

I have to say, hearing that SCCO was opening a PA school DID make me somewhat suspicious. I guess it's more like I can't do anything with my bachelor's degree and 3.0 GPA so I'd rather have a crappy job than none at all...I do see your point though about not having high hopes for job prospects.

In the past, I had defended Netmeg's (who is not an O.D. btw) right to post on the forum. *However, it seems clear to me that he/she knows next to nothing about optometry, and perhaps, he/she should not be allowed to post here.

Several points: *
Unlike what Netmag said, no one will be happy working at AB. I mean No one.*

There are some similarities between optometry and medicine. However, optometry and dentistry are completely different, and I would find it extremely odd if someone (who wished to work on teeth and the oral cavity) *would actually decide to go into optometry because they could not get into a dental school.*

To pre-opt. students,
Don't just look at the snapshot of present optometry. *Try to look at the history of the profession, which can tell you where this profession is headed.
Not many years ago, optometrists made as much as general dentists and far more than pharmacists, and getting into an optometry school was more competitive than dental or even D.O. medical schools. *Now, optometrists make less than 1/2 of what *dentists make, and optometry schools have become less competitive. *And, because of the scarcity of good jobs, some optometrists are working for AB which has an atrocious working condition.

Ask yourself, whether optometry is a thriving profession with a good future or is a slowly dying profession?*The current average salary may seem respectable to you now, but would you be OK if the salary stays the same while that of other professions double or triple in the next 20-30 years? <This is actually what has happened in the past 20 years.>

Its true optometry was more competitive relative to osteo and dentist: http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html Survey from 1997.

But very few could have predicted that dentists would be on top how they are now. Their reimbursements are amazing because they limited the number of schools and sued the dental insurance companies. Just do what you think you will enjoy the rest of your life. General dentists make more money per hour according to a lot of surveys than General Practitioners per hour and specialists make around the same as specialist MDs. There is a thread discussing this on the dental forums.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Its true optometry was more competitive relative to osteo and dentist: http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html Survey from 1997.

But very few could have predicted that dentists would be on top how they are now. Their reimbursements are amazing because they limited the number of schools and sued the dental insurance companies. Just do what you think you will enjoy the rest of your life. General dentists make more money per hour according to a lot of surveys than General Practitioners per hour and specialists make around the same as specialist MDs. There is a thread discussing this on the dental forums.

If I were a dentist, I would be scared of contracting HIV from blood splattering on me, as paranoid as that sounds. Isn't there some statistic of dentists having one of the highest suicide rates?