Was told by a crazy lady that a DO is like an "ND"

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Originally Posted by Old Grunt

After hearing a slew of anecdotal stories like this, it proves that NDs should be able to be charged with involuntary manslaughter when they pull this crap.

Originally Posted by SBB2016

her 'ceremonies' where she 'cleanses her soul' with this **** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca

Hold yer horses there partner, ayahuasca is dimethyltryptamine (a psychoactive hallucinogen) mixed with a mono amine oxidase inhibitor so it really kicks in by breaking through the blood-brain barrier. I'm sure taking somebody to the edge of death can cure their miserable life

Na, but seriously these substances affect the religious parts of our brains and give us visions and may cleanse us "spiritually". Now I don't say take these visions seriously because it is basically like dreaming while you are awake (our pineal glands release dimethyltryptamine in acute amounts) but it is definitely intriguing that our brains can produce such vivid imagery. There were experiments done with giving hallucinogens to soldiers and all of them basically wanted to leave the military after the experiment and others where the claim was that it cured 50% of alcoholics in the experiment while AA only has a 10% cure rate. But these are anecdotal and more research needs to be done.

Oh ya and possession of ayahuasca is only legal for the Church of União do Vegetal in the United States so good luck getting around that one

Originally Posted by Old Grunt

After hearing a slew of anecdotal stories like this, it proves that NDs should be able to be charged with involuntary manslaughter when they pull this crap.

i agree.

long time ago, I had some serious life threatening issues (won't discuss what), and went to a ND instead (due to some unfortunate advice, what did I know? I didn't know anything about Science) and he charged me an arm and a leg (700) and some diluted homeopathic solution and I was on my death bed. I was admitted to an ER and the docs there saved my life, barely!

Originally Posted by SBB2016

As one person told me, it's amazing how these people blatantly disregard science and reasoning... Kinda strange that these same people aren't affiliated with the same political groups who do that... Either way, my sister gets ANGRY because no one in my family will go to her 'ceremonies' where she 'cleanses her soul' with this **** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca after an argument about how Eastern 'medicine' is useful/not I asked her to name ANY disease that has been CURED by herbs/etc... Of course this is where the convos turn ugly and she gets mad and hangs up or storms out... I always ask how the Chinese would have fixed my thyroid or my dad's diabetes... still haven't heard an answer on that...

By "cleanse her soul," she means "projectile vomit everywhere", yes? Sounds appealing.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Hold yer horses there partner, ayahuasca is dimethyltryptamine (a psychoactive hallucinogen) mixed with a mono amine oxidase inhibitor so it really kicks in by breaking through the blood-brain barrier. I'm sure taking somebody to the edge of death can cure their miserable life

Na, but seriously these substances affect the religious parts of our brains and give us visions and may cleanse us "spiritually". Now I don't say take these visions seriously because it is basically like dreaming while you are awake (our pineal glands release dimethyltryptamine in acute amounts) but it is definitely intriguing that our brains can produce such vivid imagery. There were experiments done with giving hallucinogens to soldiers and all of them basically wanted to leave the military after the experiment and others where the claim was that it cured 50% of alcoholics in the experiment while AA only has a 10% cure rate. But these are anecdotal and more research needs to be done.

Oh ya and possession of ayahuasca is only legal for the Church of União do Vegetal in the United States so good luck getting around that one

Have you ever read DMT: The Spirit Molecule? It's a pretty wild book written by a psychiatrist doing clinical studies using DMT. The accounts of the trips are crazy.

Originally Posted by zoner

i agree.

long time ago, I had some serious life threatening issues (won't discuss what), and went to a ND instead (due to some unfortunate advice, what did I know? I didn't know anything about Science) and he charged me an arm and a leg (700) and some diluted homeopathic solution and I was on my death bed. I was admitted to an ER and the docs there saved my life, barely!

The most tragic thing I have heard of is from our attached dental school where a young (20) woman presented with a mass in her palate that they biopsied to find ductal cell carcinoma (zebra). Instead of getting conventional treatment, she went to an "alternative" practitioner and got bicarbonate. She represented one year later with almost complete occlusion of her throat. I don't know what happened to her, but she had a grim prognosis.

As a provider, god help you if you make a honest mistake, but alternative medicine hacks can practice fundamentally flawed principles and not have to carry malpractice insurance so the patients they harm can recover losses under the guise of caveat emptor.

As opposed to criminal charges,I'd settle for them tattooing a Sergeon General's warning on their forehead

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Hold yer horses there partner, ayahuasca is dimethyltryptamine (a psychoactive hallucinogen) mixed with a mono amine oxidase inhibitor so it really kicks in by breaking through the blood-brain barrier. I'm sure taking somebody to the edge of death can cure their miserable life

Na, but seriously these substances affect the religious parts of our brains and give us visions and may cleanse us "spiritually". Now I don't say take these visions seriously because it is basically like dreaming while you are awake (our pineal glands release dimethyltryptamine in acute amounts) but it is definitely intriguing that our brains can produce such vivid imagery. There were experiments done with giving hallucinogens to soldiers and all of them basically wanted to leave the military after the experiment and others where the claim was that it cured 50% of alcoholics in the experiment while AA only has a 10% cure rate. But these are anecdotal and more research needs to be done.

Oh ya and possession of ayahuasca is only legal for the Church of União do Vegetal in the United States so good luck getting around that one

She bitches that people get arrested for having it. She says 'its medicine, not a drug' and calls ibuprofen a drug (as in medicine is good, drugs are bad)... yes, LSD and THC are 'medicines' to her as well... yes, we came from the same family, and our brother is an engineer... yes, she is the black sheep, but I still love her... just not the crazy BS (and she's not the crazy lady in my first post)

Originally Posted by Cinclus

By "cleanse her soul," she means "projectile vomit everywhere", yes? Sounds appealing.

Don't forget craps herself, apparently this stuff comes out both ends pretty well...

Originally Posted by Old Grunt

The most tragic thing I have heard of is from our attached dental school where a young (20) woman presented with a mass in her palate that they biopsied to find ductal cell carcinoma (zebra). Instead of getting conventional treatment, she went to an "alternative" practitioner and got bicarbonate. She represented one year later with almost complete occlusion of her throat. I don't know what happened to her, but she had a grim prognosis.

As a provider, god help you if you make a honest mistake, but alternative medicine hacks can practice fundamentally flawed principles and not have to carry malpractice insurance so the patients they harm can recover losses under the guise of caveat emptor.

As opposed to criminal charges,I'd settle for them tattooing a Surgeon General's warning on their forehead

to the newest sad cancer story... UGH... if people want to do this as their last ditch, I'm gonna die anyway, effort, fine, but lets have real science be at the beginning!!!

Originally Posted by Cinclus

Have you ever read DMT: The Spirit Molecule? It's a pretty wild book written by a psychiatrist doing clinical studies using DMT. The accounts of the trips are crazy.

No but I've read LSD: My problem Child by Albert Hofmann, PhD and The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley. Really cool stuff. We are studying some of the visual distortions they experienced in my visual perception class in optometry school

Psychotropics are definitely interesting... like how a person on LSD and a schizophrenic's brain are basically operating the same way... I know they tried to study LSD as way to study schizophrenia, but weren't able to come up with a way that would fix either...

Syd Barrett (original singer from Pink Floyd) was basically rendered psychotic from people slipping him LSD without his knowledge to watch him have bad trips... He never fully recovered from the trauma of not knowing what was real or hallucinated...

My personal belief is that my sisters drug use early in her life led to the things she does now, she was hospitalized as a 19yr old because she did several drugs at one time (coke, lsd/shrooms, pot, etoh) and she thought for 2 days that people were coming through the TV to kill her. That's when her college roommate finally called my mom... Until then she wanted to be a marine biologist... now she makes jewelry and does massage therapy, both of which she claims will help cleanse the auras of the people she meets...

And yet with all the damage these things can do, people call them 'medicine' uhhhuuuhhhh

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

Group theory, missed ur comic. Awesome

And holy sweet baby jeebus.... The above not only hurts me on a medical level, but I'm sure the misappropriation of the term "energy" gave at least one physicist a stroke.... ND medicine does no harm my ass.....

Now wait a minute in all fairness- I know one part of my body THAT CAN BE STIMULATED TO RELEASE TRAPPED ENERGY

Originally Posted by nowanmd

Now wait a minute in all fairness- I know one part of my body THAT CAN BE STIMULATED TO RELEASE TRAPPED ENERGY

Lmao... mine too, not quite the same way probably!

Originally Posted by Nymphicus

LOLOL

If you want a good laugh, head over to the "Faculty" page where you can learn from vaunted professors such as Cheryl Lynn Tucker, R.N., N.D., D.Hom., D.NPsy. in the School of Homeopathy, and in the School of Orthomolecular Medicine, none other than Michael E. Anderson, B.S., M.S., M.N.H., D.N.H., N.M.D., Ph.D., M.D.

http://www.kcnh.org/faculty.html

Body workers like that alphabet soup nonsense too.

Where did that last guy get his MD?

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

Where did that last guy get his MD?

This is blowing my mind. Why would any MD do this?

No clue, but I intend to have a separate white coat with all my degrees/certificates that I bust out whenever I see this nonsense just to annoy people. Hell Im putting my associates degree on it. The alphabet soup has seriously gotten ridiculous.

On a slightly related note, I saw a pt who went to this place for tx of her breast cancer.

http://www.lasemedinc.com/

Three years later she came to the hosp with bone and brain mets...

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

On a slightly related note, I saw a pt who went to this place for tx of her breast cancer.

http://www.lasemedinc.com/

Three years later she came to the hosp with bone and brain mets...

A great example of how this naturopathic nonsense can become truly deadly. I knew a guy whose melanoma metastasized to his brain. He traveled to Brazil to receive alternative therapies for it, and he died soon after.

Originally Posted by sylvanthus

No clue, but I intend to have a separate white coat with all my degrees/certificates that I bust out whenever I see this nonsense just to annoy people. Hell Im putting my associates degree on it. The alphabet soup has seriously gotten ridiculous.

1 coat per degree. Wear them all simultaneously. Pop the collar on each one.

Originally Posted by Cinclus

A great example of how this naturopathic nonsense can become truly deadly. I knew a guy whose melanoma metastasized to his brain. He traveled to Brazil to receive alternative therapies for it, and he died soon after.

That is a great example, because no one under allopathic care ever dies of melanoma.

#wtfareyoutalkingabout

Originally Posted by facetguy

That is a great example, because no one under allopathic care ever dies of melanoma.

#wtfareyoutalkingabout

I had you figured as smarter than this.... the point he was making is that the pt was still manageable via allopathic care but was drawn off by a practitioner with absolutely no evidence of efficacy.
"No, don't listen to the doctors and their peer reviewed science which has made melanoma a survivable disease, drink this herbal tea instead! "

It is not unheard of for patients to try alternative care while their disease progresses and resort to proper medicine after it is too late. The tragic irony is that this bolsters the belief in medical ineffectiveness when the patients aren't "healed"

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

I had you figured as smarter than this.... the point he was making is that the pt was still manageable via allopathic care but was drawn off by a practitioner with absolutely no evidence of efficacy.
"No, don't listen to the doctors and their peer reviewed science which has made melanoma a survivable disease, drink this herbal tea instead! "

I never said the guy was wise to go to Brazil or wherever. But sometimes discussions like this get a little goofy and lose perspective, and the melanoma comment was one of those times.

Originally Posted by facetguy

I never said the guy was wise to go to Brazil or wherever. But sometimes discussions like this get a little goofy and lose perspective, and the melanoma comment was one of those times.

I can see your point, but I think you had to lose context in the first place to be there. In the context of natural cure efficacy the melanoma comment implied only what I said above

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

I had you figured as smarter than this.... the point he was making is that the pt was still manageable via allopathic care but was drawn off by a practitioner with absolutely no evidence of efficacy.
"No, don't listen to the doctors and their peer reviewed science which has made melanoma a survivable disease, drink this herbal tea instead! "

It is not unheard of for patients to try alternative care while their disease progresses and resort to proper medicine after it is too late. The tragic irony is that this bolsters the belief in medical ineffectiveness when the patients aren't "healed"

Melanoma with brain mets isn't exactly a "survivable disease". I understand you're a M1 at an allo school and think you're a badass, but the truth is you know only slightly more about the pathophysiology of disease and treatment than a layperson off the street with access to Wikipedia.

5 year survival is < 10% and allopathic treatment is palliative. Seeking alternative naturopathic treatment sounds reasonable to me.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

Melanoma with brain mets isn't exactly a "survivable disease". I understand you're a M1 at an allo school and think you're a badass, but the truth is you know only slightly more about the pathophysiology of disease and treatment than a layperson off the street with access to Wikipedia.

5 year survival is < 10% and allopathic treatment is palliative. Seeking alternative naturopathic treatment sounds reasonable to me.

I didnt read your link when you originally posted, and your post implied that the patient left for alternative treatment and returned later with a more advanced case of disease - implying the decision to turn to alternative therapy was what pushed the patients condition beyond help
but thanks for the correction. I will be sure to give any and all cancer patients herbal tea in the future, order of Dr. drizzt "Badass"

EDIT: I missed the transition between patients. I thought we were talking about your original patient still and not the new one. Either way I made no claim of being a pathophys badass and was only responding to our resident chiropractors objections that alternative treatments can be indirectly dangerous (which your first post seemed to imply, so what's the beef? Bad hair day, drizzle?) either way I must have done something to stick in your craw if you want to call me out so hard over a technicality.

However, yes, if the patient had the "beyond help" status before pursuing alternative therapies I don't have a problem with it. Not like we could have saved the guy anyways so he might as well live out what he has left as he sees fit.

Originally Posted by facetguy

That is a great example, because no one under allopathic care ever dies of melanoma.

#wtfareyoutalkingabout

I was remarking that drizzt's posting was a great example. Then I added a personal story. I realize he likely would have died quickly either way, but he didn't have to go die away from everyone he knew, thinking some magic herbs would save him.

Your post talked about melanoma, which isn't what the patient I discussed had, and also discussed how metastatic melanoma is "survivable" implying allopathic medicine can cure it, which is not true.

I certainly think naturopathic medicine is garbage but in the context of palliative care, why not?

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

I didnt read your link when you originally posted, and your post implied that the patient left for alternative treatment and returned later with a more advanced case of disease - implying the decision to turn to alternative therapy was what pushed the patients condition beyond help
but thanks for the correction. I will be sure to give any and all cancer patients herbal tea in the future, order of Dr. drizzt "Badass"

EDIT: I missed the transition between patients. I thought we were talking about your original patient still and not the new one. Either way I made no claim of being a pathophys badass and was only responding to our resident chiropractors objections that alternative treatments can be indirectly dangerous (which your first post seemed to imply, so what's the beef? Bad hair day, drizzle?) either way I must have done something to stick in your craw if you want to call me out so hard over a technicality.

However, yes, if the patient had the "beyond help" status before pursuing alternative therapies I don't have a problem with it. Not like we could have saved the guy anyways so he might as well live out what he has left as he sees fit.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

Your post talked about melanoma, which isn't what the patient I discussed had, and also discussed how metastatic melanoma is "survivable" implying allopathic medicine can cure it, which is not true.

I certainly think naturopathic medicine is garbage but in the context of palliative care, why not?

Yes, I was unclear and not at all thorough in my middle-of-the-night post. You've made this clear. I am a terrible dolt. Please forgive me.

What about in cases where the naturopaths lead the patient to believe that they will be cured, and aren't necessarily providing palliative care? Is it right to give someone false hope?

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

Your post talked about melanoma, which isn't what the patient I discussed had, and also discussed how metastatic melanoma is "survivable" implying allopathic medicine can cure it, which is not true.

I certainly think naturopathic medicine is garbage but in the context of palliative care, why not?

right. which is why i said i missed it. i.e "oops". melanoma in and of itself is perfectly survivable in earlier stages and at the time of my post I was only responding to the face value of facetguy's response which only included "melanoma". I did not say metastatic melanoma was survivable with allopathic medicine, just melanoma - while under the impression that the melanoma example was comparable to yours.
my bad, but I still think you're being grumpy

Originally Posted by Cinclus

Yes, I was unclear and not at all thorough in my middle-of-the-night post. You've made this clear. I am a terrible dolt. Please forgive me.

What about in cases where the naturopaths lead the patient to believe that they will be cured, and aren't necessarily providing palliative care? Is it right to give someone false hope?

he was talking to me. I dont think he has a problem with your post

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

he was talking to me. I dont think he has a problem with your post

Oh ok. lol I sometimes don't notice a quote if it's at the bottom of a post. I am a dolt.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

Melanoma with brain mets isn't exactly a "survivable disease". I understand you're a M1 at an allo school and think you're a badass, but the truth is you know only slightly more about the pathophysiology of disease and treatment than a layperson off the street with access to Wikipedia.

5 year survival is < 10% and allopathic treatment is palliative. Seeking alternative naturopathic treatment sounds reasonable to me.

I agree with this and I'm not even in school yet... Of the 14 people I know/know of personally (as in 1 degree of separation or less) who have been diagnosed with melanom TWO have survived. 15% based on the people I know of, and until recently it was 1 out of 13. Not a cool thing at all... If I were in that situation I'd try any last ditch effort probably too...

Most, if not all D.O.s trained outside the U.S. are not considered to be physicians. They don't prescribe medication and don't perform surgery. Basically, they are not trained in medicine. For example, U.S. trained D.O.s are considered as physicians in Canada, same as M.D., M.B.-B.S., or M.B.-B.Chir. Canadian trained D.O.s are not. They do a lot of manip. All this leads to confusion about D.O. in other countries and foreigners (to Americans) are often uninformed. Methinks a lot of Americans are too. N.D.s are, to my knowledge, not physicians, in any part of the multiverse. They wear Birkinstocks, Rasta knit caps, tie-die shirts, and hemp pants. They smell like burnt <hemp> rope, patchouli, and armpit. Female N.D.s don't shave their legs or armpits. Male N.D.s never heard of a razor either.

Originally Posted by Kadava Reviva

N.D.s are, to my knowledge, not physicians, in any part of the multiverse. They wear Birkinstocks, Rasta knit caps, tie-die shirts, and hemp pants. They smell like burnt <hemp> rope, patchouli, and armpit. Female N.D.s don't shave their legs or armpits. Male N.D.s never heard of a razor either.

New sig quote?

That's awesome...

Kadava, yeah... sounds about right... This lady is in Oregon, as was said earlier, "where NDs are "well respected" primary care practioners, with more training than an MD"

that's oregon. the state that gave psychologists prescription rights

psychologists' medical training:

http://www.stopblushing.org/images/psychology.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1NoTYjxZo1...gy+today+3.jpg

Originally Posted by oms2

that's oregon. the state that gave psychologists prescription rights

psychologists' medical training:

http://www.stopblushing.org/images/psychology.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1NoTYjxZo1...gy+today+3.jpg

That is absurd....

Knowing the things in this post makes me sad. My mom is a nurse and has more letters after her name than in it. She is also into things like healing touch, but she has the sense to have separate business cards for every cert she has. The people who need her lactation consultant services aren't going to care about neurolinguistic programming you know? Also, who lists their BS? That's just embarrassing.

To get back to the grass roots of this thread though, when I got accepted to med school (DO program) the nurses at the nursing home where I worked were all like, "Don't you want to be more than a chiropractor?" Then I explained what a DO was and they told me I was wrong! Like what do you know? All you did was apply and interview and research this choice for 1,000 hours! I have vague assumptions on my side!

Which leads to another point: this whole raw milk, ND, go to a chiropractor to cure your cancer stuff may well be the new form of natural selection. So it could end up being really beneficial!

Originally Posted by aslan

Which leads to another point: this whole raw milk, ND, go to a chiropractor to cure your cancer stuff may well be the new form of natural selection. So it could end up being really beneficial!

Whatever you say, Adolf.

Originally Posted by MaxillofacialMN

Whatever you say, Adolf.

Adolf didn't allow them to do it to themselves. I reject your analogy on the basis of its historical inaccuracy

It was the smile that did it for me... Haha

Originally Posted by Cinclus

Have you ever read DMT: The Spirit Molecule? It's a pretty wild book written by a psychiatrist doing clinical studies using DMT. The accounts of the trips are crazy.

I just started reading this last week. Interesting, to say the least.

Dharma, would it do me any good to read it to tell my sister she's 'on drugs' for thinking this stuff is anything besides that?? I doubt she'll listen to reason.

Aslan, the gene pool needs some chlorine, the problem is that most of these people have already reproduced by the time they kill themselves with their 'treatments'

MF-MN, totally didn't see anything wrong with the clearing the gene-pool comment made... Aslan didn't say anything about not treating these people etc, just that they can clear themselves out... Currently we're the only species to 'de-evolve' and cause other species to 'de-evolve' as I said the gene-pool needs some chlorine...

Originally Posted by SBB2016

Dharma, would it do me any good to read it to tell my sister she's 'on drugs' for thinking this stuff is anything besides that?? I doubt she'll listen to reason.

So far (and I'm really only 1/4 o the way through the book) it appears as if the author is quite intrigued by the effects of DMT and other psychedelics, mostly because we still know very little about why or how they produce the various subjective effects that are reported by different individuals. Sure we know the active constituents and what receptors are at play, but this explains very little about the wide spectrum of effects/experiences that are reported from individual to individual, or from day to day when administered to the same individual. Arriving at a more thorough understanding could lead to interesting revelations of how the mind works.

That said, this is still no reason for abuse and I doubt the author would advocate self "medication." This is not to say these molecules do not have their use in legit medical research though. Too often taboo stands in the way of digging deeper for knowledge, as has been the case in psychiatric research of psychedelics. Illicit use by irresponsible individuals taints the process to the point where people assume absolute stances in regards to certain substances: that they are either entirely worthless and only used be the dregs of society or they are the best thing since sliced-bread and a cure-all for every ailment known (and unknown) to man. Chances are the truth lies somewhere within the spectrum that exists between these extremes.

Anyhow, no, your sister's use of ayahuasca does not fit in the category of justifiable medication.

I do recommend the book though

I despise drug use in most every form (yeah, I'm one of those, I don't drink, smoke, use caffeine, or anything), my thyroid meds and BCPs count to me as 'meds'... My sister gets absolutely pissed off that no one in our family "supports" her, and additionally that we won't DO IT (seriously), she yelled at me because I won't take a mind altering chemical...

your sister is on what now?

Originally Posted by SBB2016

I despise drug use in most every form (yeah, I'm one of those, I don't drink, smoke, use caffeine, or anything), my thyroid meds and BCPs count to me as 'meds'... My sister gets absolutely pissed off that no one in our family "supports" her, and additionally that we won't DO IT (seriously), she yelled at me because I won't take a mind altering chemical...

One or two trips can change your outlook on many things. Many people who experimented a coule of times report a highly spiritual experience. More than a few times, it becomes mental masturbation. Used once every few years, at different stages in your life may not be a bad thing. Just remember: moderation. And, don't become a hippy.

That may be true, but it also is true that people do this stuff and never fully recover. No thanks. My sister was on track to get a PhD in Marine Biology, then she discovered how 'Fun' drugs are... now she makes jewelry and does massage... while she gets to travel endlessly, it is in search of 'cleansing' her spirit, blah blah... the only thing I can say is that we as a society don't support her, so she's successful enough in her own right that I can't complain... Other than that I think she and people like her are bat **** crazy... I don't see why taking a hallucinogen is better than my own imagination...

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

your sister is on what now?

Ayahuasca... also called DMT

Originally Posted by SBB2016

Ayahuasca... also called DMT

Dang tell your sister to hook it up for me.