Anesthesiology Shadowing Intubation?

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I know it's not common, but I have heard of pre-med students being allowed to perform intubation under the direction and close supervision of the anesthesiologist they're shadowing.

I'm pretty sure there are malpractice insurance issues abound here, but out of curiosity, is this type of experience something one would want to include or omit in the AMCAS application?

Originally Posted by IbnGalenus

I know it's not common, but I have heard of pre-med students being allowed to perform intubation under the direction and close supervision of the anesthesiologist they're shadowing.

I'm pretty sure there are malpractice insurance issues abound here, but out of curiosity, is this type of experience something one would want to include or omit in the AMCAS application?

Omit, it doesn't deserve mentioning even if it wasn't frowned upon.

Originally Posted by IbnGalenus

I know it's not common, but I have heard of pre-med students being allowed to perform intubation under the direction and close supervision of the anesthesiologist they're shadowing.

I'm pretty sure there are malpractice insurance issues abound here, but out of curiosity, is this type of experience something one would want to include or omit in the AMCAS application?

Absolutely, positively not.

This coming from someone who wants to do anesthesia/critical care. ABSOLUTELY not OK.

LEAVE THIS OUT OF YOUR APPLICATION.

Originally Posted by IbnGalenus

I know it's not common, but I have heard of pre-med students being allowed to perform intubation under the direction and close supervision of the anesthesiologist they're shadowing.

I'm pretty sure there are malpractice insurance issues abound here, but out of curiosity, is this type of experience something one would want to include or omit in the AMCAS application?

This is complete bull**** no respectable doctor would ever let that happen, and no hospital staff in the room would witness it without notifying someone. That is dangerous, irresponsible, selfish, inappropriate, a break of trust for the patient, and completely shameful.

Never include it and I don't believe for one split second that this actually happens. Double check your sources.

Oh yeah and it's unethical as well. This post makes my brain want to explode I cannot honestly believe this is a serious question.

Originally Posted by CodeBlu

Absolutely, positively not.

This coming from someone who wants to do anesthesia/critical care. ABSOLUTELY not OK.

LEAVE THIS OUT OF YOUR APPLICATION.

Really? I already submitted my app and mentioned holding a skin retractor during surgery and cutting threads left over after suturing. But I did remove some other stuff I was allowed to both in GS and EM since I didn't want to get flamed.

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

This is complete bull**** no doctor would ever let that happen, and no hospital staff in the room would witness it without notifying someone. That is dangerous, irresponsible, selfish, inappropriate, a break of trust for the patient, and completely shameful.

Never include it and I don't believe for one split second that this actually happens. Double check your sources.

Emotional much? Medicine is a teaching profession and the only way to educate the next generation of physicans is to let noobies like us get our hands dirty every once in a while.

Originally Posted by Fed

Emotional much? Medicine is a teaching profession and the only way to educate the next generation of physicans is to let noobies like us get our hands dirty every once in a while.

Let pre meds intubate? Let "noobies like us" with no training whatsoever intubate a poor unsuspecting patient who's trust is being violated? Are you really not seeing the problem here?

Also, while you're still a pre med you can't claim the whole "next generation of physician" thing as a right to perform an unauthorized medical procedure with no formal training on a non consenting patient. You are not a medical student yet, and to pull a stunt like intubation when you are not trained to do so is getting off to a pretty bad start.

Intubation if done by a trained professional is no big deal, but if someone messes it up it can cause a whole slew of horrible complications and can even lead to death. Don't act like you deserve to "get your hands dirty" when doing so can kill someone.

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

Let pre meds intubate? Let "noobies like us" with no training whatsoever intubate a poor unsuspecting patient who's trust is being violated? Are you really not seeing the problem here?

Also, while you're still a pre med you can't claim the whole "next generation of physician" thing as a right to perform an unauthorized medical procedure with no formal training on a non consenting patient. You are not a medical student yet, and to pull a stunt like intubation when you are not trained to do so is getting off to a pretty bad start.

We'll have to agree to disagree. True, some pre-meds won't actually go on to become physicians. But that's true for medical students, too.

Originally Posted by Fed

We'll have to agree to disagree. True, some pre-meds won't actually go on to become physicians. But that's true for medical students, too.

But they are on a different level all the same. If I ever saw a pre med intubate someone I swear I would raise hell. It is wrong, reckless, and unethical. Heads would roll. I'm not joking, I'm usually the sweetest person ever but just reading this made me almost have a seizure lol.

Originally Posted by Fed

Really? I already submitted my app and mentioned holding a skin retractor during surgery and cutting threads left over after suturing. But I did remove some other stuff I was allowed to both in GS and EM since I didn't want to get flamed.

Come on Fed think about it. How would you feel if you were going through an operation that was supposed to be done by trained medical professionals and instead you find out later some random pre-med did part of the operation? How would you feel?

A good patient-doctor relationship is all about building trust between patient and doctor. Having a stranger operate on a patient is just unethical and it undermines this trust.

Originally Posted by thelaw986

Come on Fed think about it. How would you feel if you were going through an operation that was supposed to be done by trained medical professionals and instead you find out later some random pre-med did part of the operation? How would you feel?

A good patient-doctor relationship is all about building trust between patient and doctor. Having a stranger operate on a patient is just unethical and it undermines this trust.

This is like when you're looking for a job and every job listing says you have to have experience...so you're not qualified for any job...so you can't get experience...so you're not qualified for any job...and the cycle continues.

What about an MS3 on her first rotation? She's ain't one of them "trained medical professionals" so she shouldn't be allowed to do anything, right? Same for residents.

My argument is that residents, interns, medical students, and pre-meds are simply at different locations on the same spectrum, with layperson at one end and full-fledged physician at the other.

Guys you have been trolled. Look at OP join date and post count. I think our friend "Jamal" is back.

Sent from my Galaxy S2 via tapatalk

I know a few second year medical students that have intubated a patient for the first time with as much relevant training (i.e. none) as a pre-med.

As for the OP's original question: omit it.

In addition to being a class 1 felony this TROLL should be drawn and quartered

Originally Posted by paul411

I know a few second year medical students that have intubated a patient for the first time with as much relevant training (i.e. none) as a pre-med.

As for the OP's original question: omit it.

Thank you for this. I agree that some things should be left out an application, namely the personal statement.

Originally Posted by Ironmandoc

In addition to being a class 1 felony this TROLL should be drawn and quartered

Is it seriously a felony for a pre-med to, for example, hold a skin retractor during a lymphadenectomy?

Originally Posted by paul411

I know a few second year medical students that have intubated a patient for the first time with as much relevant training (i.e. none) as a pre-med.

As for the OP's original question: omit it.

This is why I was so curious. I'm positive even MS1s have been allowed to intubate. So when I heard that someone listed this under "clinical experience" on AMCAS I was wondering where the distinction lies.

I couldn't find any precedent for it online, but I pretty much assumed this isn't something you'd want to tout.

Anyway, thanks for your responses everyone.

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

This is complete bull**** no respectable doctor would ever let that happen, and no hospital staff in the room would witness it without notifying someone. That is dangerous, irresponsible, selfish, inappropriate, a break of trust for the patient, and completely shameful.

Never include it and I don't believe for one split second that this actually happens. Double check your sources.

Oh yeah and it's unethical as well. This post makes my brain want to explode I cannot honestly believe this is a serious question.

I've done it twice and im a pre med. Under two different anesthesiologists. The nurse anesthetists helped me too. My brother has also done it under a different anesthesiologist as a pre med as well.

I understand why it would be an issue but in reality the procedure is really simple. The patients out of it on narcs, you put a glidescope in their mouth that's hooked up to a monitor so you can see down their throat and then you stick a tube down the patients trachea. Done.

Originally Posted by Revolver1045

I've done it twice. Under two different anesthesiologists. The nurse anesthetists helped me too.

I understand why it would be an issue but in reality the procedure is really simple. The patients out of it on narcs, you put a glidescope in their mouth that's hooked up to a monitor so you can see down their throat and then you stick a tube down the patients trachea.

I'm intrigued. I guess this is more common than I thought.

I'm assuming you're applying this cycle. Have you submitted your application, and did you include that tidbit?

Also, I've seen some knee-jerk reactions here. I agree it's probably not best to mention this on the app, but does anyone have an authoritative opinion on the legality of this issue (assuming patient consent)?

(EDIT: I know there's a chance everyone who says they've done this is just messing with me, but I've heard it frequently enough to make me wonder.)

Definitely omit it. You aren't going to impress anybody by mentioning the experience, you'll only tick off the wrong people.

In many states, paramedics/nurses are not allowed to intubate. If a state board were to receive information that a physician allowed an unlicensed pre-med to perform an intubation, I'm pretty sure it would atleast result in disciplinary action for the physician.

Originally Posted by paul411

I know a few second year medical students that have intubated a patient for the first time with as much relevant training (i.e. none) as a pre-med.

As for the OP's original question: omit it.

As a first year, I learned the relevant anatomy as well as practiced intubating a cadaver. While that's a far cry from being well trained to intubate, it's also a far cry from going in blind

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

Let pre meds intubate? Let "noobies like us" with no training whatsoever intubate a poor unsuspecting patient who's trust is being violated? Are you really not seeing the problem here?

Also, while you're still a pre med you can't claim the whole "next generation of physician" thing as a right to perform an unauthorized medical procedure with no formal training on a non consenting patient. You are not a medical student yet, and to pull a stunt like intubation when you are not trained to do so is getting off to a pretty bad start.

Intubation if done by a trained professional is no big deal, but if someone messes it up it can cause a whole slew of horrible complications and can even lead to death. Don't act like you deserve to "get your hands dirty" when doing so can kill someone.

I saw an anesthesia attending let a critical care attending intubate a patient in the ICU. First, the critical care attending intubated the esophagus, the the anesthesia attending correctly removed it and placed it in the trachea. 2 hours later I'm called because the patient isn't moving and is hypotensive not responding very well to pressors or fluids. Well, 2 things happened. First the patient had a history of rheumatoid arthritis when I reviewed the chart. The ICU attending did not even know this. At some point their cervical spine was sublexed in the mayhem. Next, the patient was getting hypotensive from their spinal shock an hour later. Lastly, the CXR showed mediastinum air because when the ICU attending intubated the esophagus he perforated it. This patient died because an Anesthesia attending let someone who didn't know what they were doing do an intubation. This was a major lawsuit and thank god my name wasn't on that chart.

So story is, don't put that you intubated a patient as a pre-med student.

Originally Posted by Fed

Emotional much? Medicine is a teaching profession and the only way to educate the next generation of physicans is to let noobies like us get our hands dirty every once in a while.

As others have said, pre-meds are not the next generation of physicians. The medical-legal coverage of a pre-med is much less than a medical student. The hospital or the medical school has to pay for the insurance of each medical student as well, so even if the doctor is willing to risk his or her license the hospital is still liable. Doctors are in many cases driven to teach, but a drive to teach doesn't always give you the best judgment. It has very little to do with training and everything to do with status (plus at least medical students will probably know the anatomic differences between esophagus and larnyx. Here is a link with one medical school's explanation of the legal rights of a med student.

http://www.uthsc.edu/Medicine/legale...sLiability.pdf

Originally Posted by Fed

We'll have to agree to disagree. True, some pre-meds won't actually go on to become physicians. But that's true for medical students, too.

More than half of pre-meds won't become doctors, less than 1/10 of medical students won't become doctors. There is a big difference.

Originally Posted by Fed

This is like when you're looking for a job and every job listing says you have to have experience...so you're not qualified for any job...so you can't get experience...so you're not qualified for any job...and the cycle continues.

What about an MS3 on her first rotation? She's ain't one of them "trained medical professionals" so she shouldn't be allowed to do anything, right? Same for residents.

My argument is that residents, interns, medical students, and pre-meds are simply at different locations on the same spectrum, with layperson at one end and full-fledged physician at the other.

What I'm gathering from this is that you think you're a bit more important than you actually are. Comparing your shadowing to rotations is pretty funny.

Keep in mind too that many medical schools now have simulation mannequins that you can practice intubating on before doing the real thing.

Originally Posted by loveoforganic

As a first year, I learned the relevant anatomy as well as practiced intubating a cadaver. While that's a far cry from being well trained to intubate, it's also a far cry from going in blind

What's especially scary is that this is happening on an unconsenting patient (most likely, I can't imagine any surgical patient saying "Oh sure that college student with no formal medical training can intubate me when I'm out"). Shame on any doctors who allow pre-meds to do this.

I understand why intubation would not be good to mention but what about suturing, setting up an IV line and doing intravenous and intramuscular injections? Would these be alright to mention?

Originally Posted by ffaholic

I understand why intubation would not be good to mention but what about suturing, setting up an IV line and doing intravenous and intramuscular injections? Would these be alright to mention?

Not really. Once again, regardless of the ethics there is no VALUE in mentioning them. So you can do an injection and place an IV, that in no way demonstrates you are qualified to be a physician nor does it in any direct way make you a better applicant. Your application is meant to be an argument for your suitability to attend medical school and become a physician. These things are trivial tasks in the overall training of a physician. You will get plenty of future training and experience in them, so your prior level of ability in these tasks doesn't matter to an adcom. The only possible way I could see these things aiding you is if it was in the context of you learning about being a physician. In that case, it isn't worth mentioning that your medical epiphany occurred while suturing some unfortunate patients arm when you can simply say "shadowing/volunteering" without any of the risk and the same gain.

Originally Posted by IbnGalenus

I'm intrigued. I guess this is more common than I thought.

I'm assuming you're applying this cycle. Have you submitted your application, and did you include that tidbit?

Also, I've seen some knee-jerk reactions here. I agree it's probably not best to mention this on the app, but does anyone have an authoritative opinion on the legality of this issue (assuming patient consent)?

(EDIT: I know there's a chance everyone who says they've done this is just messing with me, but I've heard it frequently enough to make me wonder.)

Yes I'm applying this cycle and no I did not include it on my application. I figured it would not have much benefit compared to other aspects of the application and there is some (I don't know if it's high) probability that it might get some adcoms upset similar to the people here on sdn.

That being said, although some will disagee I don't believe that it is as big of a deal as it has been made out to be on this thread. The anesthesiologists that I shadowed were very well trained and both had done their residences at Dartmouth. From what I gathered in surgery, as well as what you can read about the responsibilities of the anesthesiologist, is that the anesthesiologist is in charge. He or she is the be all end all that gives the final green light for surgery. They (at least the ones I was with) know what they are doing and everyone in the operating room knows this. If the anesthesiologist says I can intabate and I am under their close supervision, I found that no one questions this. One of the surgeons who watched me do it even asked me "how much did they pay you for that" to which the anesthesiologist responded "he gets free lunch". Again, #my2¢

Originally Posted by cincincyreds

I saw an anesthesia attending let a critical care attending intubate a patient in the ICU. First, the critical care attending intubated the esophagus, the the anesthesia attending correctly removed it and placed it in the trachea. 2 hours later I'm called because the patient isn't moving and is hypotensive not responding very well to pressors or fluids. Well, 2 things happened. First the patient had a history of rheumatoid arthritis when I reviewed the chart. The ICU attending did not even know this. At some point their cervical spine was sublexed in the mayhem. Next, the patient was getting hypotensive from their spinal shock an hour later. Lastly, the CXR showed mediastinum air because when the ICU attending intubated the esophagus he perforated it. This patient died because an Anesthesia attending let someone who didn't know what they were doing do an intubation. This was a major lawsuit and thank god my name wasn't on that chart.

So story is, don't put that you intubated a patient as a pre-med student.

Exactly. What surprises me is that people seem okay with it even knowing the risks. You would think that if the trust being broken and unethical aspect of it didn't bother someone enough, the fear of accidently killing someone, getting sued, or never becoming a doctor if it went wrong would.

Originally Posted by Revolver1045

Yes I'm applying this cycle and no I did not include it on my application. I figured it would not have much benefit compared to other aspects of the application and there is some (I don't know if it's high) probability that it might get some adcoms upset similar to the people here on sdn.

That being said, although some will disagee I don't believe that it is as big of a deal as it has been made out to be on this thread. The anesthesiologists that I shadowed were very well trained and both had done their residences at Dartmouth. From what I gathered in surgery, as well as what you can read about the responsibilities of the anesthesiologist, is that the anesthesiologist is in charge. He or she is the be all end all that gives the final green light for surgery. They (at least the ones I was with) know what they are doing and everyone in the operating room knows this. If the anesthesiologist says I can intabate and I am under their close supervision, I found that no one questions this. One of the surgeons who watched me do it even asked me "how much did they pay you for that" to which the anesthesiologist responded "he gets free lunch". Again, #my2¢

All this proves is that you took a risk for your own benefit, allowed the life of the patient to be put in the hands of the least qualified/absolutely not even qualified person, got lucky and seem to now feel that it is no big deal. It is a big deal, and it is reckless of you to do that in the first place but then posting on an online form saying that its not a big deal is irresponsible as well. How do you know someone isn't going to read this, have that same opportunity, not have that same luck with going in completely blind, do it wrong and hurt or even kill the patient as a result? Just because you got lucky doesn't mean you should say its okay, because someone may read this and not be as lucky.

Originally Posted by Revolver1045

Yes I'm applying this cycle and no I did not include it on my application. I figured it would not have much benefit compared to other aspects of the application and there is some (I don't know if it's high) probability that it might get some adcoms upset similar to the people here on sdn.

Originally Posted by Revolver1045

That being said, although some will disagee I don't believe that it is as big of a deal as it has been made out to be on this thread. The anesthesiologists that I shadowed were very well trained and both had done their residences at Dartmouth. From what I gathered in surgery, as well as what you can read about the responsibilities of the anesthesiologist, is that the anesthesiologist is in charge. He or she is the be all end all that gives the final green light for surgery. They (at least the ones I was with) know what they are doing and everyone in the operating room knows this. If the anesthesiologist says I can intabate and I am under their close supervision, I found that no one questions this. One of the surgeons who watched me do it even asked me "how much did they pay you for that" to which the anesthesiologist responded "he gets free lunch". Again, #my2¢

I just wanted to add my personal experience with this topic. I also participated in an intubation while I was shadowing and it was a fantastic learning opportunity. I was under EXTREME supervision and everything was evaluated by the anesthesiologist afterwards. I'm in a different situation than most, but I did not include this on my application. I have also scrubbed in to over 50 surgeries and "assisted" the surgeons as a scrub 2. This included retracting, stapling, sponging and cutting suture. It was a fantastic learning opportunities that I was fortunate enough to do as a pre-med. This I did include in my application. Again just my personal experience and right or wrong I certainly benefited from these experiences.

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

All this proves is that you took a risk for your own benefit, allowed the life of the patient to be put in the hands of the least qualified/absolutely not even qualified person, got lucky and seem to now feel that it is no big deal. It is a big deal, and it is reckless of you to do that in the first place but then posting on an online form saying that its not a big deal is irresponsible as well. How do you know someone isn't going to read this, have that same opportunity, not have that same luck with going in completely blind, do it wrong and hurt or even kill the patient as a result? Just because you got lucky doesn't mean you should say its okay, because someone may read this and not be as lucky.

There is actually little luck involved and you are not "completely blind." A trained professional (actually multiple trained professionals because the nurse anesthetist is there as well) is their to coach you through it and the placement is verified visually on a monitor. I don't see why it is such a gross offense that you make it out to be. If it was the case that premeds were going around intubating patients unsupervised than yes I can see the validity of your argument. However this is not the case, their are people with years of experience guiding you and watching your every move to make sure nothing goes wrong. I understand that I am not going to persuade you in agreeing with me in that it's ok, but who did agree with me in that it is ok is multiple well trained anesthesiologists, multiple nurse anesthetists, a surgeon and anyone else in the operating room that saw me do the intubation. The opinions, knowledge and understanding of multiple trained professionals with years of experience I will take over your very novice perspective on the issue. Perhaps if you have the opportunity to shadow an anesthesiologist you can take up the issue with them.

Originally Posted by Revolver1045

There is actually little luck involved and you are not "completely blind." A trained professional (actually multiple trained professionals because the nurse anesthetist is there as well) is their to coach you through it and the placement is verified visually on a monitor. I don't see why it is such a gross offense that you make it out to be. If it was the case that premeds were going around intubating patients unsupervised than yes I can see the validity of your argument. However this is not the case, their are people with years of experience guiding you and watching your every move to make sure nothing goes wrong. I understand that I am not going to persuade you in agreeing with me in that it's ok, but who did agree with me in that it is ok is multiple well trained anesthesiologists, multiple nurse anesthetists, a surgeon and anyone else in the operating room that saw me do the intubation. The opinions, knowledge and understanding of multiple trained professionals with years of experience I will take over your very novice perspective on the issue. Perhaps if you have the opportunity to shadow an anesthesiologist you can take up the issue with them.

I know multiple ones, and there's no need to take the issue up with them because they would never allow that to happen. Simple.

Seems like too many pre-meds think that the point of clinical experience is to do a lot of "cool things", like start IVs or intubate or suture or whatever. But that's what medical school is for--to train you how to do all that. Once you're actually a physician, none of those things will be cool any more. They will just be a part of your job that you're good at. The REAL point of clinical experience is to a) understand what physicians do, and b) understand what it's like to work with sick people all the time. That's why it's dumb to put on your application that you got to suture a patient. No one will be impressed, because that's not what clinical experience and shadowing are meant to teach you. There's a chance someone might be offended. If you get to do those things, sweet, you're clearly a special snowflake. But I see absolutely no reason to list it on AMCAS.

I'm still not comfortable with taking a patient's blood pressure, heart rate, height, weight, and temperature...let alone INTUBATE them. Some of the replies in this thread terrify me.

Originally Posted by CityLights

What's especially scary is that this is happening on an unconsenting patient (most likely, I can't imagine any surgical patient saying "Oh sure that college student with no formal medical training can intubate me when I'm out"). Shame on any doctors who allow pre-meds to do this.

Yeah, I find this particularly bothersome. The chance someone consented to this approaches 0

Edit: and second everything mmmcdowe has said. Sums up all the good points in the thread well

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

I know multiple ones, and there's no need to take the issue up with them because they would never allow that to happen. Simple.

Well the anesthesiologists you know do things differently than the ones I know. No offense intended but perhaps they simply thought you aren't up for it given your maturity level, personality etc. Regardless, I did it and I'm sure many other people will do it as premeds.

Originally Posted by campbellsoup29

I just wanted to add my personal experience with this topic. I also participated in an intubation while I was shadowing and it was a fantastic learning opportunity. I was under EXTREME supervision and everything was evaluated by the anesthesiologist afterwards. I'm in a different situation than most, but I did not include this on my application. I have also scrubbed in to over 50 surgeries and "assisted" the surgeons as a scrub 2. This included retracting, stapling, sponging and cutting suture. It was a fantastic learning opportunities that I was fortunate enough to do as a pre-med. This I did include in my application. Again just my personal experience and right or wrong I certainly benefited from these experiences.

I'm sorry, but is that what you want to hear from the pre-med who badly hurt or killed your family member? That it was a benefit to the pre-med so, no biggie? Right or wrong, I got to do it?

This whole conversation disturbs me. I am pre-med with the intention of becoming a physician. I can hardly wait to do the "neat things" but never EVER at the risk of my patients. I can't honestly believe that there are MDs out there who think that allowing this is appropriate and hope I am never the patient of such a person.

I know many students that are allowed to do things like suturing, cleaning wounds, taking EKGs, drawing blood, giving subcutaneous meds, etc abroad while under supervision of a physician and under the patients' conscious consent.

I advised these students to not include these experiences but just refer to it as a teaching internship. Is that what others are doing? I think doing an intubation on a non-consenting patient is absurd, however.

Originally Posted by Revolver1045

Well the anesthesiologists you know do things differently than the ones I know. No offense intended but perhaps they simply thought you aren't up for it given your maturity level, personality etc. Regardless, I did it and I'm sure many other people will do it as premeds.

No offense taken, but the situation has not even been brought up because they are responsible and wouldn't put their patients at risk like that. We aren't talking about clipping threads or sponging, we are talking about a potentially lethal screw up. It's not a matter of my maturity level or personality, it's a matter of them and me being ethical. Besides, my respect for others is demonstrated in the way I hold myself, and I'm not jumping at any opportunity to inappropriately do a procedure on someone's grandma who is passed out on the table. Even if offered, I would decline, and I would hope and pray to God that a pre med would do the same for me and someone that I love.

Originally Posted by CityLights

What's especially scary is that this is happening on an unconsenting patient (most likely, I can't imagine any surgical patient saying "Oh sure that college student with no formal medical training can intubate me when I'm out"). Shame on any doctors who allow pre-meds to do this.

Depending on the consent form and on the shadowing agreement, it might be included in the consent. Our surgical consent says that "Dr. So-and-so will do the operation, OR anyone else of his choosing. I understand that residents and students will participate in the operation." Some students are in some kind of formal rotation though, versus following someone to work that day.

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

But they are on a different level all the same. If I ever saw a pre med intubate someone I swear I would raise hell. It is wrong, reckless, and unethical. Heads would roll. I'm not joking, I'm usually the sweetest person ever but just reading this made me almost have a seizure lol.

Deep breaths.

Originally Posted by Mommy Doc 85

This whole conversation disturbs me. I am pre-med with the intention of becoming a physician. I can hardly wait to do the "neat things" but never EVER at the risk of my patients. I can't honestly believe that there are MDs out there who think that allowing this is appropriate and hope I am never the patient of such a person.

Just wait until residency. One day, you'll be putting in your first central line, and even with as much pre-procedural training as you'll get, your patient is still at a higher risk of complications with you doing it than someone who has done hundreds of central lines.

I intubated a patient with the anesthesiologist standing next to me before I got into medical school.

That WAS in a hospital in Honduras though with a medical group from the states, so probably a little gray area there.

Originally Posted by guitarguy23

I intubated a patient with the anesthesiologist standing next to me before I got into medical school.

That WAS in a hospital in Honduras though with a medical group from the states, so probably a little gray area there.

Like I stated, international stuff is a wiggly area. But doing procedures on unconsenting patients is still very sketch, and I would never mention that on my AMCAS application.

However, in the case of conscious, consenting patients, that gets a lot more gray, but it won't add much to your application anyways... so work around it.

Look, whether or not the OP thinks the opportunity benefited he/she is irrelevant. It's what the ADCOMs think and I guarantee you they'll think of one word: Tuskegee.

"TheProwler;12639561]Depending on the consent form and on the shadowing agreement, it might be included in the consent. Our surgical consent says that "Dr. So-and-so will do the operation, OR anyone else of his choosing. I understand that residents and students will participate in the operation." Some students are in some kind of formal rotation though, versus following someone to work that day."

That is assuming its a medical student or resident. Not some joe schmo with no idea what is going on, guided through the procedure or not. That would get shredded in a malpractice lawsuit.

And if I take too many deep breaths I will pass out haha.

Look, As a Pre med i'm all for learning and having a good time, but pre meds cannot be grouped in with medical students or residents, it's not their right. I'm not as upset as I am letting off, but i seriously don't think it's a good idea for anyone involved. The risks far outweigh the benefits here.

Yep. I don't believe it.

Originally Posted by Ashley1989

That is assuming its a medical student or resident. Not some joe schmo with no idea what is going on, guided through the procedure or not. That would get shredded in a malpractice lawsuit.

And if I take too many deep breaths I will pass out haha.

Look, As a Pre med i'm all for learning and having a good time, but pre meds cannot be grouped in with medical students or residents, it's not their right. I'm not as upset as I am letting off, but i seriously don't think it's a good idea for anyone involved. The risks far outweigh the benefits here.

No, because it includes surgical tech students, PA students, OR nurse orientees, student nurse anesthetists, and even high school student observers, on a very regular basis.

Would I let a pre-med intubate? No. They're there to watch and see what you do, and if they decide to go into the field, they'll have their turn.

Originally Posted by loveoforganic

Yeah, I find this particularly bothersome. The chance someone consented to this approaches 0

Edit: and second everything mmmcdowe has said. Sums up all the good points in the thread well

Yup.

Originally Posted by Revolver1045

Well the anesthesiologists you know do things differently than the ones I know. No offense intended but perhaps they simply thought you aren't up for it given your maturity level, personality etc. Regardless, I did it and I'm sure many other people will do it as premeds.

Maybe the anesthesiologists you know are hacks who shouldn't be practicing? Untrained undergrads should not be intubating. The end.


Did you people never stop to think about your actions? Really? I realize you're typical pre-allo nerdlets who will stop at nothing to get into med school and tear down any thing and any one in your way, but d@mn.

It's nice to know SDN never changes.

Originally Posted by TheProwler

No, because it includes surgical tech students, PA students, OR nurse orientees, student nurse anesthetists, and even high school student observers, on a very regular basis.

Would I let a pre-med intubate? No. They're there to watch and see what you do, and if they decide to go into the field, they'll have their turn.

Dude, come on. You and I both know that unless it's spelled out, the patients are assuming its medical students/residents and not randoms up from the local vo-tech. That said, ST/PA/SRNAs have a legit reason to be around. High school kids do not and they're not covered, they're not there as a part of a legit educational experience related to their plan of study.