PHD during surgical residencies? uMich

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Hello,

A few days ago, I noticed that the Mayo Clinic offers a PHD for an individual when they are participating in certain surgical residency program. For example, I noticed a PHD in molecular neuroscience was an option for neurosurgical residents who were going to pursue academic medicine. Are there any other residency programs that do this? Does U of Michigan Hospital? I was not able to find an answer.

Thanks,

Originally Posted by genius19971995

Hello,

A few days ago, I noticed that the Mayo Clinic offers a PHD for an individual when they are participating in certain surgical residency program. For example, I noticed a PHD in molecular neuroscience was an option for neurosurgical residents who were going to pursue academic medicine. Are there any other residency programs that do this? Does U of Michigan Hospital? I was not able to find an answer.

Thanks,

Why on earth would anyone want to do this? Who wants to be a resident forever, never be able to pay off loans, not have any control over your schedule, live on meager resident salary vs 500k+ avg neurosurgeon salary. Its like arrested development at resident stage. Also what would be the benefit of getting a PhD? Coming out of Mayo, you have a good shot of becoming an attending at most places.

PhD is PhD is PhD. You get to spend MORE time at Mayo. You walk out with your residency completed, AND. PhD from Mayo. Sounds like you would distinguish yourself in clinical-academics before you even start a fellowship. I would do the PhD and enjoy the extra couple of years in Rochester. It's a quaint city

Originally Posted by StarlingForce1

PhD is PhD is PhD. You get to spend MORE time at Mayo. You walk out with your residency completed, AND. PhD from Mayo. Sounds like you would distinguish yourself in clinical-academics before you even start a fellowship. I would do the PhD and enjoy the extra couple of years in Rochester. It's a quaint city

In clinical academics, a PhD doesn't add much. Plenty of MD-only physicians successfully do clinical research. If you want to run your own lab, then yes, a PhD may help - but why on earth would you do that, when you could be making a ton more money by seeing patients and operating?

This sounds like a way of getting free post-grad labor from naive residents who think, "Oh, a PhD! What a great idea!"

I feel like having "MD, PhD" after your name still could help when vyying for a fellowship position somewhere..

Originally Posted by StarlingForce1

I feel like having "MD, PhD" after your name still could help when vyying for a fellowship position somewhere..

Most people who do MD PhD get their PhD in med school. Getting your PhD in med school extends your med school, but in most cases it also means you get last 2 yrs tuition free. Getting a PhD in med school obviously helps you get into a very competitive residency.

The picture is very different for a resident getting a PhD. Being a neurosurgery resident, especially at Mayo, means you are already very accomplished and should get most fellowship/attending positions available.

Originally Posted by StarlingForce1

I feel like having "MD, PhD" after your name still could help when vyying for a fellowship position somewhere..

Is that "feeling" based in evidence? Or is it just an assumption?

Agree with Oxer....if you're a resident at Mayo, and you've done well there, you should have very little trouble finding your desired fellowship. Even without the PhD.

Originally Posted by smq123

Is that "feeling" based in evidence? Or is it just an assumption?

Agree with Oxer....if you're a resident at Mayo, and you've done well there, you should have very little trouble finding your desired fellowship. Even without the PhD.

Not so much an assumption as much as an educated guess, though perhaps I am inadvertently revealing my naiveté (sp?)

No one cares if u have a phd or masters.... It's the skills you bring

Originally Posted by europeman

No one cares if u have a phd or masters.... It's the skills you bring

True, but I would imagine that beholding a graduate degree emphasizing research would carry with it an implied value that you possess an additional skill set....

Originally Posted by StarlingForce1

True, but I would imagine that beholding a graduate degree emphasizing research would carry with it an implied value that you possess an additional skill set....

There are too many academic surgeons who run labs without a PhD to make getting a PhD really worthwhile in terms of competitive advantage unless you have a separate interest in having a PhD (ego-related, etc). If you are that interested in having one, the most logical/efficient route is to do the MD/PhD route when you're a student. I see very little value in having the PhD letters after your name when applying for fellowships. Even for the most competitive fellowships I can't see it adding that much value beyond the standard 2 years of research.

Do you wish to spend most of your time being clinical or in research? A number of acedemic department higher people who spend 50-80% of their time in nonclinical activity. For some this is administrative, for others in getting grants and doing research, ect. Far more NIH money go to people with PhD after their name then MD, and the MD portion gets smaller and smaller. Most PhD programs give training in grant writing ect. However PhD programs often trap their trainee for longer then the 4 years it typically takes. People who can pull in big research money are very attractive to acedemic medical centers.

Originally Posted by DrDawg

Do you wish to spend most of your time being clinical or in research? A number of acedemic department higher people who spend 50-80% of their time in nonclinical activity. For some this is administrative, for others in getting grants and doing research, ect. Far more NIH money go to people with PhD after their name then MD, and the MD portion gets smaller and smaller. Most PhD programs give training in grant writing ect. However PhD programs often trap their trainee for longer then the 4 years it typically takes. People who can pull in big research money are very attractive to acedemic medical centers.

This would be roughly what I was referring to.

Originally Posted by StarlingForce1

This would be roughly what I was referring to.

yes, but this may or may not help you get a fellowship. It will help you get a job, if you limit your self to large acedemic centers. Of course you need to be successful in publishing...

Originally Posted by DrDawg

yes, but this may or may not help you get a fellowship. It will help you get a job, if you limit your self to large acedemic centers. Of course you need to be successful in publishing...

I am only interested in academic hospitals; best place to be, it would seem. Lots of people doing research, more resources available to answer clinical questions, better equipment - all this translates to an increased capacity to do good by my patients. Academic hospitals are the only option for me

Originally Posted by StarlingForce1

I am only interested in academic hospitals; best place to be, it would seem. Lots of people doing research, more resources available to answer clinical questions, better equipment - all this translates to an increased capacity to do good by my patients. Academic hospitals are the only option for me

Definitely not always true.

Anyway, if your personal wish is to go into academics, get a PhD before or during med school. Getting one after residency takes you away from clinical medicine at a bad time.

Originally Posted by StarlingForce1

I feel like having "MD, PhD" after your name still could help when vyying for a fellowship position somewhere..

Having good published research will definitely help, but you don't need a PhD in order to obtain that. You can do research while doing your residency, and at many places, you can even take 1-2 years to do dedicated research.

Originally Posted by genius19971995

Hello,

A few days ago, I noticed that the Mayo Clinic offers a PHD for an individual when they are participating in certain surgical residency program. For example, I noticed a PHD in molecular neuroscience was an option for neurosurgical residents who were going to pursue academic medicine. Are there any other residency programs that do this? Does U of Michigan Hospital? I was not able to find an answer.

Thanks,

I don't know about U Michigan, but many schools offer this or permit this in some form. It probably does depend on how big your residency/fellowship program is and how much of a wrench you will throw into the clinical scheduling by going off and taking classes and doing research. If a residency or fellowship program is already very research heavy, then they are likely to be more amenable and this getting of another degree in "passing" will also make more sense.

The particular program does not need to even be part of the residency program itself. For example, Stanford has a program that funds residents and fellows getting graduate degrees across the medical center:
http://med.stanford.edu/arts/

The fact that it is funded by this program means that it is much easier to find a graduate program and a research advisor (since you have your own funding and don't have to be paid out of grant money). The three people I know who have gotten a PhD while in residency/fellowship have gone on to faculty positions at very prestigious places (Harvard, Vanderbilt, Stanford).

There are also NIH training grants that let you pursue graduate studies and are particularly designed for physicians to get basic science research training. In my limited experience, if you come up with your own money (e.g. from an NIH program), you can go get a graduate degree if the PhD program accepts you, and in many cases if you have an MD and funding, then you should be in a good position.

If you are interested in doing research in a very particular area that you don't already have a lot of training in, then this may make more sense for you. You mentioned neurosurg, so for example maybe a PhD in bioengineering might make sense for you, depending on your research interests. You can definitely get an academic position and run a lab without a PhD, but getting a PhD gives you some protected time to get papers out and pick up some new skills and knowledge that may be important in a research domain. Maybe you need more experience working with primates or rats or need experience with a particular new fancy kind of imaging technology.

At the same time, getting a PhD at this point may actually make a lot more sense than if you do an MD/PhD. If you do a combined degree, you finished your research, did two clinical years, then residency (putting your research in deep freeze), probably a fellowship, and then you are on the market for an academic position. Your main research work was done maybe 7+ years ago, and your knowledge may be stale. Your h-index may be a bit inflated because you have had some years for people to site your work, but you are still behind. You don't want to be a faculty candidate interviewing by proposing things based on obsolete techniques and technologies. This is not universal, of course, but it can be hard to keep up to speed in quickly changing fields when you have a busy clinical schedule (such as surgical residency) all the time.

At the other end, if you get your PhD while in fellowship, typically you are actually paid much better than a regular PhD student (since you are PG-x, your overall quality of life and financial situation will likely overall be better than someone who did an MD/PhD even though they got med school for "free"). In practice a lot of things are facilitated and smoothed out for you a bit, and you are in a much stronger position compared to other students since you typically have a much better handle on what are important problems, know how to prioritize, and know how to get stuff done. You have much more experience in giving talks and in responding to questioning, and in lots of ways you can be a much more mature, efficient and kick a** researcher. Then, your work that you present as your are on the job trail is then fresh, new and you have a lot more momentum for starting your new lab.

Anyway, just depends on your goals and interests and your current publication record and preparedness to lead a research group. A little looking, and you can find a way to do it.

I guess I'll be the one to break it to you guys... no one cares about a PhD in surgical academia. Most institutions (even the "big name" institutions) want surgeons to come in and improve the bottom line. Spending a day or two during the week in a lab means you are not doing the thing that actually makes a surgery department money, which is operating. You do not need a PhD to get a job at Harvard, Vanderbilt, or Stanford. You do need to be well-trained (ideally at a "big name" institution), have a desirable skill set, and be ready to take a lot of call and operate as much as possible.

The days of the PhD surgeon running his/her lab, and still doing a few cases here and there are largely over. I personally know some surgeons who do this, but they are mostly holdovers from a bygone era. It is not hard to publish a lot during your residency, but it does take effort. As someone who trained at prestigious institutions, I can tell you that taking years out of your training to hang out in a lab, is potentially detrimental to your surgical skills, and is totally unnecessary.