DO, MD, Caribbean MD

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I'm only applying to DO schools this year.

Why many MDs (students, residents, attendings) first reject CaribbeanMD > DO, but then all of a sudden start looking down upon to DO schools in any thread/conversation when commenting about competitive ACGME residency programs?

If letters of M.D. are that important for competitive ACGME residency programs (even surgical residency programs), then isn't CaribbeanMD > DO?

There is a stigma about studying in the Caribbean for an MD. The deck is stacked against you as well.

Originally Posted by aspDO

I'm only applying to DO schools this year.

Why many MDs (students, residents, attendings) first reject CaribbeanMD > DO, but then all of a sudden start looking down upon to DO schools in any thread/conversation when commenting about competitive ACGME residency programs?

If letters of M.D. are that important for competitive ACGME residency programs (even surgical residency programs), then isn't CaribbeanMD > DO?

Oh lord... some things never die.

Originally Posted by notbobtrustme

There is a stigma about studying in the Caribbean for an MD. The deck is stacked against you as well.

Couldn't get what you mean. Please, open up.

Originally Posted by aspDO

If letters of M.D. are that important for competitive ACGME residency programs (even surgical residency programs), then isn't CaribbeanMD > DO?

No.

/thread

There's about a million threads on this topic and statistics showing that Carib MD is significantly disadvantaged compared to DO in every possible way. Regarding ACGME there is a significant bias against Carib MD graduates in most residencies, significantly more so than for US DO students. So point being MD>DO>>>>>>>>> Carib MD.

Originally Posted by aspDO

I'm only applying to DO schools this year.

Why many MDs (students, residents, attendings) first reject CaribbeanMD > DO, but then all of a sudden start looking down upon to DO schools in any thread/conversation when commenting about competitive ACGME residency programs?

If letters of M.D. are that important for competitive ACGME residency programs (even surgical residency programs), then isn't CaribbeanMD > DO?

you're going to get yelled at for not searching for this answer...its pretty easy to research this yourself.

Im feeling nice though, so Ill give you an overview-very general.

Really, no one who matters cares what your letters are. what matters is what your residency options will be. As it is now, its easier to specialize as a US MD, the next easiest is US DO and the third is Caribbean MD. The match numbers are somewhere at 90%, upper 80% and around 50% respectively so Caribbean MD is really only a good choice if you know you want primary care and can't get a domestic school to accept you-in my opinion (or you really like the beach

Things like this are why

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=921165

and the whole section it's in

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=290

There goes 60 seconds of my life

Originally Posted by mbeas

no.

/thread

+1

oh, b-t-dubs for anyone reading this thread still: the ama full delegation just passed strong anti Caribbean policy seeking state and federal legislation that will try to prevent or limit the pay to play business of the carribean schools in american hospitals.

exact language to come tomorrow. I'm too damn tired and busy to do it right now

Originally Posted by aspDO

I'm only applying to DO schools this year.

Why many MDs (students, residents, attendings) first reject CaribbeanMD > DO, but then all of a sudden start looking down upon to DO schools in any thread/conversation when commenting about competitive ACGME residency programs?

If letters of M.D. are that important for competitive ACGME residency programs (even surgical residency programs), then isn't CaribbeanMD > DO?

Good point, sir. Thank you for your incite; you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Thanks for the posts!

However, my question was about MD-world's attitude: although everyone tells MD >= DO >>>>> CaribMD, when times come to discuss residency programs, table turns like being MD >>> DO. Why is that?

Is there anything superior with ACGME residencies compared to AOA residencies?

Do most hospitals/groups favor those physicians having ACGME residency? (honestly, nothing else comes to mind other than that.)

Originally Posted by MedPR

Good point, sir. Thank you for your incite; you are a gentleman and a scholar.

No sir, I'm not inciting anything. I'm only applying to DO schools. If you call it as incite!

Originally Posted by aspDO

No sir, I'm not inciting anything. I'm only applying to DO schools. If you call it as incite!

False, since you created this thread.

Originally Posted by dntke1518

Oh lord... some things never die.

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

Originally Posted by MedPR

False, since you created this thread.

Igniting DO, then, huh?

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

Why did I think of this

Originally Posted by MedPR

False, since you created this thread.

This is my understanding, brother/sister..

OP isn't asking what's better, DO or carib MD. He's saying that some MDs look down upon DOs, yet those same MDs are the ones who say go DO instead of carib MD. He's asking why they look down upon DO but not carib MDs.

Originally Posted by DocEspana

oh, b-t-dubs for anyone reading this thread still: the ama full delegation just passed strong anti Caribbean policy seeking state and federal legislation that will try to prevent or limit the pay to play business of the carribean schools in american hospitals.

exact language to come tomorrow. I'm too damn tired and busy to do it right now

Originally Posted by docmayer

OP isn't asking what's better, DO or carib MD. He's saying that some MDs look down upon DOs, yet those same MDs are the ones who say go DO instead of carib MD. He's asking why they look down upon DO but not carib MDs.

Thanks for the support. I don't get why people exacerbate something else..

MDs tell DO is equal, and then here comes ACGME's news.. please, read it yourselves.

Originally Posted by MedPR

Originally Posted by aspDO

Thanks for the support. I don't get why people exacerbate something else..

MDs tell DO is equal, and then here comes ACGME's news.. please, read it yourselves.

Easy peasy stuff. If you are talking about MD vs DO in general...

MD =/> DO >> Offshore. There may or may not be a bias against DOs, but its closer to what a low teir MD school would face. It simply an acknowledgement of not being from a more name-brand school. And offshore is generally see as an actual discrimination which is very legit an very measurable.

If you're talking about MD vs DO among old cranky docs

US-MD >> DO > Offshore. The guys who look down on DOs will do so for no good reason BUT!! They will still have a slightly stronger bias against offshore students. Its just going to be how it works. In this case DO and offshore are closer than USMD and DO... but DO still > Offshore despite them being closer.

If you're referring to everyone's love affair with ACGME (MD) residencies. Thats rather simply actually. AOA residencies have very few large university hospitals under their perview. They have plenty of mid-level and plenty of crappy places. ACGME has (nearly) all the large university programs and has its own huge number of mid level and crappy programs. We gravitate towards ACGME as a bit of a prestige/badge of honor. In reality, if youre at a mid level program (and it *is actually* mid-level. not that you just say its mid level) its rather irrelevant if its ACGME or AOA. If you're at a crappy program its irrelevant if its ACGME or AOA. It does sort of feel better to say its a mid level ACGME, but functionally i dont think it makes a lick of a difference. Now if you get into a notable ACGME university hospital residency, then good for you! Thats worthy of note.

Originally Posted by aspDO

Thanks for the support. I don't get why people exacerbate something else..

MDs tell DO is equal, and then here comes ACGME's news.. please, read it yourselves.

Well this pertains to DO's who do their internship year in the AOA match and then want to do a PGY-2 residency such as PM&R, etc or if they do an ACGME fellowship ( Though many aren't accredited by the ACGME). There are no barriers for DO's currently to do a PGY-1 internship for their PGY-2 residencies.

Originally Posted by DocEspana

Easy peasy stuff. If you are talking about MD vs DO in general...

MD =/> DO >> Offshore. There may or may not be a bias against DOs, but its closer to what a low teir MD school would face. It simply an acknowledgement of not being from a more name-brand school. And offshore is generally see as an actual discrimination which is very legit an very measurable.

If you're talking about MD vs DO among old cranky docs

US-MD >> DO > Offshore. The guys who look down on DOs will do so for no good reason BUT!! They will still have a slightly stronger bias against offshore students. Its just going to be how it works. In this case DO and offshore are closer than USMD and DO... but DO still > Offshore despite them being closer.

If you're referring to everyone's love affair with ACGME (MD) residencies. Thats rather simply actually. AOA residencies have very few large university hospitals under their perview. They have plenty of mid-level and plenty of crappy places. ACGME has (nearly) all the large university programs and has its own huge number of mid level and crappy programs. We gravitate towards ACGME as a bit of a prestige/badge of honor. In reality, if youre at a mid level program (and it *is actually* mid-level. not that you just say its mid level) its rather irrelevant if its ACGME or AOA. If you're at a crappy program its irrelevant if its ACGME or AOA. It does sort of feel better to say its a mid level ACGME, but functionally i dont think it makes a lick of a difference. Now if you get into a notable ACGME university hospital residency, then good for you! Thats worthy of note.

Cool stuff, thanks.

How do you think ACGME might try later to push its graduates as attending physicians in hospitals to block AOA graduate physicians? If it doesn't have such drama in its, God knows what, agenda, then what's this fuss all about?

Originally Posted by serenade

Well this pertains to DO's who do their internship year in the AOA match and then want to do a PGY-2 residency such as PM&R, etc or if they do an ACGME fellowship ( Though many aren't accredited by the ACGME). There are no barriers for DO's currently to do a PGY-1 internship for their PGY-2 residencies.

Then, one should start at the internship year at an ACGME program, or else cannot continue with ACGME later on? So, basically stay in AOA/ACGME program from start to finish. Right?

Originally Posted by aspDO

Cool stuff, thanks.

How do you think ACGME might try later to push its graduates as attending physicians in hospitals to block AOA graduate physicians? If it doesn't have such drama in its, God knows what, agenda, then what's this fuss all about?

What in the world? this has nothing to do with attendings. physician recruitment agencies don't care whether one finished an aoa or acgme program (both funded by medicare).

also there are many, many fellowships not accredited under the aoa nor the acgme

Originally Posted by aspDO

Cool stuff, thanks.

How do you think ACGME might try later to push its graduates as attending physicians in hospitals to block AOA graduate physicians? If it doesn't have such drama in its, God knows what, agenda, then what's this fuss all about?

As DocEspana said, although MD is only >= DO for school, ACGME >> AOA for residency.

The ACGME is considering shutting out residents from the questionable AOA residencies from ACGME fellowships.

There may be a couple of AOA residencies that are alright, but they're the exception, not the rule. So the possible ACGME policy does make some sense.

Originally Posted by aspDO

Cool stuff, thanks.

How do you think ACGME might try later to push its graduates as attending physicians in hospitals to block AOA graduate physicians? If it doesn't have such drama in its, God knows what, agenda, then what's this fuss all about?

How? It's not like they can't penalize the program or cut their funding. The reality is that a program director will pick the students who are the best for their program and based on their school's performance history.

Originally Posted by donkeykong1

What in the world? this has nothing to do with attendings. physician recruitment agencies don't care whether one finished an aoa or acgme program (both funded by medicare).

Yes they do. They care whether you went to MGH vs BUMC for residency, so yes, they will definitely care about the distinction between ACGME and AOA residencies.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

Yes they do. They care whether you went to MGH vs BUMC for residency, so yes, they will definitely care about the distinction between ACGME and AOA residencies.

This may be true in certain situations but not so much if you go private practice it's not as big of a deal.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

As DocEspana said, although MD is only >= DO for school, ACGME >> AOA for residency.

The ACGME is considering shutting out residents from the questionable AOA residencies from ACGME fellowships.

There may be a couple of AOA residencies that are alright, but they're the exception, not the rule. So the possible ACGME policy does make some sense.

I'm curious, aren't many fellowships not accredited by the ACGME formally but rather alternative organizations? Will they be affected?

Originally Posted by HalfListic

This may be true in certain situations but not so much if you go private practice it's not as big of a deal.

By yourself? Sure, as long as your patients don't care.

In a PP group practice? Yes, it still matters.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

Yes they do. They care whether you went to MGH vs BUMC for residency, so yes, they will definitely care about the distinction between ACGME and AOA residencies.

No. being BC or BE, licensed in the state, no prior suits, and experience matter. if you're talking about academic/research posts then yes it definitely does matter where your training was done

Originally Posted by serenade

I'm curious, aren't many fellowships not accredited by the ACGME formally but rather alternative organizations? Will they be affected?

They won't be.

Originally Posted by serenade

I'm curious, aren't many fellowships not accredited by the ACGME formally but rather alternative organizations? Will they be affected?

Nope

Caribbean MD is a NoNOnoONo. You will get the last spot in trying to get a residency.

Originally Posted by qwerty2012

Caribbean MD is a NoNOnoONo. You will get the last spot in trying to get a residency.

To be fair, the top of SGU's class has historically done well, although that may not be the case in the future.

Radiology may be a particularly DO unfriendly specialty, but it seems to be more friendly to FMGs than DOs, at least from what I observed on the interview trail.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

To be fair, the top of SGU's class has historically done well, although that may not be the case in the future.

Radiology may be a particularly DO unfriendly specialty, but it seems to be more friendly to FMGs than DOs, at least from what I observed on the interview trail.

good board scores/good clinical grades/research experiences/well connected LORs. > where the degree is from. nuff said. lol

Originally Posted by qwerty2012

good board scores/good clinical grades/research experiences/well connected LORs. > where the degree is from. nuff said. lol

After what's been written above, I'm not buying all this any more.

All is looking like this:

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

By yourself? Sure, as long as your patients don't care.

In a PP group practice? Yes, it still matters.

That's given me a cold feet because I don't feel like I'll be opening my private practice right after the residency. I think I'll pay my dues for some time in a hospital and/or group practice long before going solo. Oh, well..

Originally Posted by aspDO

Cool stuff, thanks.

How do you think ACGME might try later to push its graduates as attending physicians in hospitals to block AOA graduate physicians? If it doesn't have such drama in its, God knows what, agenda, then what's this fuss all about?

I think this will not happen at all. The drama doesn't exist in their agenda. I think you're letting hype and rumor give you a false sense of what the reality is. There is little fuss. It's not all 100% equal, but its also something that most people barely ever notice uness they have some crazy unrealistic expectations or spend all their life cowering in fear of exaggerated word of mouth issues.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

To be fair, the top of SGU's class has historically done well, although that may not be the case in the future.

Radiology may be a particularly DO unfriendly specialty, but it seems to be more friendly to FMGs than DOs, at least from what I observed on the interview trail.

I thought recent match lists have shown a propensity in DO's matching radiology (lots of ACGME placements, as well). From what I remember seeing, the "top" DO schools placed more into ACGME positions than AOA...but I could be mistaken.

Originally Posted by necronomicon

I thought recent match lists have shown a propensity in DO's matching radiology (lots of ACGME placements, as well). From what I remember seeing, the "top" DO schools placed more into ACGME positions than AOA...but I could be mistaken.

That's because the AOA has very few radiology spots only like 35 vs 1100 for ACGME. 59 DO's matched to ACGME programs (http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf) so yeah more DO's are going ACGME than AOA.

In contrast only 44 IMG's matched to diagnostic radiology, and the applicant pool for IMG's versus DO's to radiology has got to be dramatically larger.

Originally Posted by johnnydrama

To be fair, the top of SGU's class has historically done well, although that may not be the case in the future.

Radiology may be a particularly DO unfriendly specialty, but it seems to be more friendly to FMGs than DOs, at least from what I observed on the interview trail.

you mean the students that were actually able to graduate...

or the others who ended up ruining their lives and going head first into massive debt

im guessing u mean the 1st part...yea that 1 guy in radio did it!! he represents the entire school...riteeee..what is the rad acceptance of img?...0.00001%? (dont forget we have 2-3 admission cycles of the islands- with expanded campuses)

and stigma exists for all schools..what about harvard or yale vs XXX school...you dont think theres a stigma there..you mention res spots that MOST mds cannot get into to compare the education..load of balony!!

id also like someone to do a stat of DOs being lower than MDs...im almost certain that it is the "tails" of top teir medical school holding up the stats for the higher average gpa and mcat scores....the top 10% will always be the expection regardless (considering that mcats are a scaled score...and gpa ...is gpa (there are many schools)

ps..from the posts ive read...your going to be a great doctor...

now go back to your plant biology

Originally Posted by aspDO

That's given me a cold feet because I don't feel like I'll be opening my private practice right after the residency. I think I'll pay my dues for some time in a hospital and/or group practice long before going solo. Oh, well..

Don't let it bother you...Johnny D knows a lot about some things, but talks about everything with the same level of confidence. This is one of the instances where his bias blinds him...and he's wrong.

In private practice (and of course, this means groups practice) the person hiring cares a lot more about how much you want to make. They will not really understand or care about AOA vs ACGME and will assume you are a trained professional, which you will be.

The only place MD helps over DO is getting certain residencies (fellowships)...

Originally Posted by HalfListic

Don't let it bother you...Johnny D knows a lot about some things, but talks about everything with the same level of confidence. This is one of the instances where his bias blinds him...and he's wrong.

In private practice (and of course, this means groups practice) the person hiring cares a lot more about how much you want to make. They will not really understand or care about AOA vs ACGME and will assume you are a trained professional, which you will be.

The only place MD helps over DO is getting certain residencies (fellowships)...

I agree with you for the most part, but it does matter to some degree. My attending right now, who is the dept. chair of surgery of some average community hospital in a big city, told me he will only hire people who went to "top programs" because the job market is so saturated in the city that he can pick whomever he wants. But, keep in mind, the hospital is in a desirable location and we are currently recovering from a recession.

It's really not a big deal as long as you're flexible.

Originally Posted by cliquesh

I agree with you for the most part, but it does matter to some degree. My attending right now, who is the dept. chair of surgery of some average community hospital in a big city, told me he will only hire people who went to "top programs" because the job market is so saturated in the city that he can pick whomever he wants. But, keep in mind, the hospital is in a desirable location and we are currently recovering from a recession.

It's really not a big deal as long as you're flexible.

I think you missed the private practice caveat...