question for real world guys?

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Would you do it again or send your kid to Podiatry school?

Originally Posted by NeilD

Would you do it again or send your kid to Podiatry school?

I'm obviously not done, but as of right now I wouldn't recommend my kid go to podiatry OR medical school. It's not worth the monumental cost of education and putting your life on hold for so long. There has to be something better that combines income, decent lifestyle, and more instant payoff without all the loans and suffocating debt.

Having said that, I WOULD do it again because I enjoy the work and wouldn't want to do anything else (including any other specialty). I like studying and learning more and more. I wouldn't mind if my child pursued podiatry if they had the proper work ethic and realistic expectations going in.

I might consider being a RN due to the previously mentioned time/cost of school and the fact that you can start your "adult life" of family, kids, saving and retirement planning, etc a lot sooner.

However, I'd probably say that "yes," I would pick podiatry again... you do finish training relatively young (compared to most other 6 figure job potentials), you have a very interesting career, and the hours are whatever you wish to make them. In terms of medical specialties, it's clearly one of the best choices IMO.

Possibly, although the nail technician route is much less expensive and substantially less time than that of podiatry. The reimbursement for a nail technician is much better than that of a pod. No insurance rejections to deal with as a nail tech, no charts to keep and maintain, no surprise audits where you have to pay back the tiny bit of money that was given to a pod to begin with. They could also get a degree as an esthetician and as a hair stylist. Both of these fields are also cash fields, no insurance messes, and little to no charting, other than hair style/color/texture, etc.

Yes I would do it again because I like the work and I have built myself a good thing here, but I would do it a little differently. I would NOT have hired on as an Associate for another small group (what a mess). I would NOT have refinanced my student loans after Residency.

I would also consider some avenue of Dentistry because their post-doc training model makes more sense and I think I would enjoy the work well enough.

My kids will have to send themselves if they want to go to professional school.

Originally Posted by NatCh

Yes I would do it again because I like the work and I have built myself a good thing here, but I would do it a little differently. I would NOT have hired on as an Associate for another small group (what a mess). I would NOT have refinanced my student loans after Residency.

May I ask what you would have done differently? (thanks)

Originally Posted by heybrother

May I ask what you would have done differently? (thanks)

I would either open my own practice and tough it out, hire on with a large group, or join a small group as full partner right off the bat. My experience as an Associate with a small group was that one of the older pods treated me more as his apprentice or assistant rather than as a colleague. He also had me further down the chain of command than the office manager and that wasn't working for me.

I would have sucked it up and found a way to make that additional $800/month payment rather than defer or forbear the loan and trying to make it up with larger payments on the far end.

Yes, I would do it again. As I'm sure many of you have learned, there is no easy way to make a lot of money. If so, everybody would do it. As I went through my 11 years of schooling and training, I had friends pursue all different types of opportunities and careers. I admit that it was frustrating to see friends get their bacholors, then masters, and begin solid careers. I had friends going into various parts of the medical field including nursing, PA school, CRNA, etc. They all start working and purchasing homes, going on trips, and I'm still in school. But now that I've finally finished, it was well worth it. There is no quick or easy way to get there. Some of my friends have expressed their envy for my income and lifestyle but they quickly point out that they are not envious of what it took to get there.

I do agree with what has been said concerning the expense of a medical education. MD/DO/DPM etc is getting so expensive as reimbursements become worse and worse. You seem to have debt levels increasing with incomes decreasing which can't last. I recently read the article on CNN about various private practices (I think this particular article was about cardiologists) going out of business because of medicare cuts. That is scary and docs today accumulate much more student loan debt. If it got a lot worse, I would obviously not recommend that my children (or anyone) pursue medicine. I don't want my kids going into 200K debt to make 100K a year!

deleted

I wouldn't

damn this place is starting to feel like the optometry forum

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Originally Posted by NeilD

Would you do it again or send your kid to Podiatry school?

I speak as a first year resident. Yes, despite the lowly salary and overwhelming burden of student loans, I would do it all over again. I would have perhaps given more thought to CRNA vs Anesthesiology Assistant [shorter time in school & loan burden]. For the most part, Jonwil summed it up pretty good.

So very true; there is no easy way to make money. A lot of my friends went the business route or law school route --frankly, they just don't hold the versatility that a medical degree/health care degree [RN/CRNA/PA] does, and they acknowledge that fact openly. A couple of my friends' fathers work in IT & Finance sectors, and when you age into that system - unless your skills are very valuable - it is cheaper for a company to hire that newly minted college grad for half the price. Been on LinkedIn lately? Read some of the ridiculous business corporate jargon. "Excels in communication, competitive organizer, file transfer expertise, 10 years experience in counseling management" -- what does that mean? what do you do?

You have more options in healthcare (even in this climate), you have a SKILL. Many physicians give into complaining about this and that -- but nobody else in this economy has such a secure job unless you are in healthcare. Live within your means, be good at what you do, and don't have regrets - you will find a happy place.

hmmmm... happy place (flashback to happy gilmore)....

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Would I do it again?... I'll get back to you tomorrow after Justice Roberts decides whether or not the government take over of medicine is going to procede.

Seriously though, I would absolutley do it all again and if my son shows an interest when he gets older I would encourage him. I have actually come accross a lot more MDs who say they would not go into medicine again than DPMs who regret their choice.

Originally Posted by gustydoc

Would I do it again?... I'll get back to you tomorrow after Justice Roberts decides whether or not the government take over of medicine is going to procede.

So true....


But seriously, this thread is depressing...

This thread isn't so much depressing as it is pointless. My parents are both teachers. Both of them told me not to go into education because of all the hoops you have to jump through now a days, only to be unfairly compensated for your hard work that seems to never be appreciated by the parents of your students...now doesn't that sound familiar????

It's more a matter of having intimate knowledge of your own profession. You see all of the problems and nothing changing anytime soon. Your buddy seems to have a great gig from your point of view, but little do you know that he hates his job too.

Originally Posted by dtrack22

This thread isn't so much depressing as it is pointless. My parents are both teachers. Both of them told me not to go into education because of all the hoops you have to jump through now a days, only to be unfairly compensated for your hard work that seems to never be appreciated by the parents of your students...now doesn't that sound familiar????

It's more a matter of having intimate knowledge of your own profession. You see all of the problems and nothing changing anytime soon. Your buddy seems to have a great gig from your point of view, but little do you know that he hates his job too.

Bottom line: a good job is still a job and work is work?

Absolutely. I would do it again and will definitely send my kid to DPM school or any other medical professional school. Yes, reimbursement is down and it is harder to live as a physician e nowadays. However, I never considered being a doctor as a "work". To me, It is rather a life long dedication toward others health. I get much satisfaction from seeing my patients get better on daily basis and I take a big pride in it. this is something money cannot buy.

http://www.podiatrytoday.com/if-you-...-be-podiatrist

Originally Posted by NatCh

Bottom line: a good job is still a job and work is work?

The grass is always greener. Even a great job is "just a job" to the guy who's doing it. And because of that, asking for parental recommendations to their children is pointless. They could love what they do, but they will inevitably find problems that they perceive others as not having to deal with. Education, income, hours, unnecessary beaurocratic processes, etc. There will always be some job in your eyes that doesn't have the same problems as you do. I think a parent who recommends their child go into the same profession as them is in an extreme minority...

We all want more. And we should all want what is best for our kids. Therefore, we are rarely going to recommend our own profession to our children since we feel there is greater opportunity for them elsewhere.

Of course, if somehow you could become a retired race horse who's only job is to be studded out to stables across the country...well, then there is no such thing as greener grass

Originally Posted by freshprincechir

and will definitely send my kid to DPM school or any other medical professional school.

Even if they don't want to be a doctor?

Originally Posted by dtrack22

Of course, if somehow you could become a retired race horse who's only job is to be studded out to stables across the country...well, then there is no such thing as greener grass

I don't know. Have you seen some of those mares? Brrrrrr.

Originally Posted by NatCh

I don't know. Have you seen some of those mares? Brrrrrr.

Pretty sure when you're a horse you don't have to look em in the eyes...

.

Originally Posted by tenaciousplus

No.

Originally Posted by newfeet

I wouldn't

.....

Originally Posted by dtrack22

Pretty sure when you're a horse you don't have to look em in the eyes...

When I'm finished laughing I'm going to come up with a witty reply but I can't quite stop jiggling enough to type right now.

We are service providers--in the same line as chiropractic. And it's 2012. Many of the students, residents, and others may wake up to reality once student and resident dance is over. Reality will set in. All the proclamations, master/famers, and lifers will tell you how great it is. Keep an open mind. Perform major due diligence. The world has changed, and podiatry has not. Chiropody is needed. Not mini quasi-orthopods.

For all the massive loans with very few, if any repayment programs for pods. Why? Linking up with community colleges, universities in the boonies, why not Case Western? OHSU, Cinci? Or Cornell, NYU, Mt Sinai, etc....how many years have those training schools been there?

Pods regardless of training, percieved parity, rhetoric, get less pay, less bonuses in the military, classified with ancillary staff b/c of the enigmatic degree triad. DPM=DPM=DPM.

2012. Either foot and ankle medicine is to be a ABMS speciality (taking the USMLEs, ABSITE, LCME accredited schools) or exist on the status quo, which is a first class ticket to nowhere, whadda my chances, low MCATs (or MCAT astonishing optional), and med school rejects looking for a place to hang for 4 years +3 yrs of a
non- ABGME post-grad training program, to be called "doc".

Be a NP, PA, or CRNA. Pay is 6 figs to start, and always needed.

No over explaining, whatsa DPM?, How many recruiters, headhunters are looking for DPMs? If so, what is the base, realistic bonuses, benies, holiday, etc... Inside or outside of pediatrics? How many employment opps? An associate (1099) is NOT a real job, nor are promises, maybes, perhaps, somedays, and over the rainbows--reality is a 6 fig student loan debt with limited opps.

Knowing what you don't know is critical.

Originally Posted by Traum

We are service providers--in the same line as chiropractic.

This is not true for any insurance plan other than a handful of states who decided to drop podiatric services from their state Medicaid budget. Even so, many states (even though they don't have to based on current Title XIX) still include us.

Originally Posted by Traum

Be a NP, PA, or CRNA. Pay is 6 figs to start, and always needed.

The 6 figures part is also not true. Several PA students who graduated from our program are starting out well below 6 figures (closer to $60k) and there is not one specialty where the mean income of PA's is above $100k. Can you make 6 figures? Yes. But you "can" make almost 7 figures in podiatry...If my aunt had a penis she'd be my uncle...

Also, having interacted with other students and providers, the allopathic and osteopathic worlds have largely conceded foot care to Podiatrists. Can they provide the care based on their scope? Sure. Are they willing to? Not really. Would favorable patient outcomes decrease? Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Traum

The world has changed, and podiatry has not.

When is the last time you had actually looked at current podiatric education and training? If anything, the argument could be make that the one medical specialty that has evolved the MOST is podiatry. No offense to the older generation of pods, but the experience current students and residents are getting (in terms of training) is light years ahead of what was available even 20 years ago. That's not to say those individuals weren't able to eventually get the experience, but it took longer and there were far more who didn't get it than did.

I can live with the negativity within the majority of your posts. You have enough valid points most of the time and are certainly entitled to your opinion. But this rant was largely inaccurate. And by largely, I mean all but 1-2 points you made were blatantly false.

All the training means nothing, the training is not governed by LCME, ABGME, nor is a ABMS speciality. Are students FT in the hospital MSIII and IV? I/Os, lytes, putting in lines, ABGs, sub-I to the intern, etc.. acting in exactly, exactly the same capacity as MD students governed by LCME?

The fact that medical/nursing staff sees "Podiatry Student-name tag" can mean you are branded, and may receive lesser training, "you "don't need this you're foot students", or training does not encompass medical students training.

Why not merge with Cornell, NYU, OHSU, Case Wastern--think we all know the answer....

Being a mini-quasi-orthopod is not what america needs--more PCPs--(MD/DO, NP, PA---PCPs). How many folks are really going to pay out of pocket (cashola) for hammertoes, bunions, and heel pain--when their teeth are rotting, breast ca, bloody sputum, etc...where does the 11yr trained foot and sometimes ankle surgeon fall in line with reality? We need more PCPs, not mini orthopods that are an enigma to many docs, and lay people.

Do you complete an ABGME surgical internship prior to doing ankle and foot surgical residency?


Podiatry/DPM, remains an enigma, can you prescribe, huh, what? and that odd triad --DPM, is urecognized, and devalued as a physician. It is a service provider, and ancillary--military classifies with speech pathologists, audiologists. Not the med corp (MDs, DOs, DMD/DDS). where are thou DPMs-what, huh? DP-what?

PAs, NPs, and CRNA fresh out get job offers b/w 106-120K. maybe in springerville they make 60K gross, and that is embarrassingly low for a PCP--as defined by ACOs.

Are head hunters and recruiters knocking down the door for that newly minted ankle and foot surgeon? with real job offers in cities (not in the wop wops), not a 1099 associate eeking out a living or playing patsy.

Thank you for living with reality (negativity), but that's the real world, and knowing what you don't know.

Many, pediatric students, and DPMs don't know, what they don't know. Therefore, accept more of nothing, promises, proclamations, famers/masters/lifers and others who are enthuisastic and maybe well intentioned but are ignorant.

Originally Posted by Traum

All the training means nothing, the training is not governed by LCME, ABGME, nor is a ABMS speciality. Are students FT in the hospital MSIII and IV? I/Os, lytes, putting in lines, ABGs, sub-I to the intern, etc.. acting in exactly, exactly the same capacity as MD students governed by LCME?

The fact that medical/nursing staff sees "Podiatry Student-name tag" can mean you are branded, and may receive lesser training, "you "don't need this you're foot students", or training does not encompass medical students training.

Why not merge with Cornell, NYU, OHSU, Case Wastern--think we all know the answer....

Being a mini-quasi-orthopod is not what america needs--more PCPs--(MD/DO, NP, PA---PCPs). How many folks are really going to pay out of pocket (cashola) for hammertoes, bunions, and heel pain--when their teeth are rotting, breast ca, bloody sputum, etc...where does the 11yr trained foot and sometimes ankle surgeon fall in line with reality? We need more PCPs, not mini orthopods that are an enigma to many docs, and lay people.

Do you complete an ABGME surgical internship prior to doing ankle and foot surgical residency?


Podiatry/DPM, remains an enigma, can you prescribe, huh, what? and that odd triad --DPM, is urecognized, and devalued as a physician. It is a service provider, and ancillary--military classifies with speech pathologists, audiologists. Not the med corp (MDs, DOs, DMD/DDS). where are thou DPMs-what, huh? DP-what?

PAs, NPs, and CRNA fresh out get job offers b/w 106-120K. maybe in springerville they make 60K gross, and that is embarrassingly low for a PCP--as defined by ACOs.

Are head hunters and recruiters knocking down the door for that newly minted ankle and foot surgeon? with real job offers in cities (not in the wop wops), not a 1099 associate eeking out a living or playing patsy.

Thank you for living with reality (negativity), but that's the real world, and knowing what you don't know.

Many, pediatric students, and DPMs don't know, what they don't know. Therefore, accept more of nothing, promises, proclamations, famers/masters/lifers and others who are enthuisastic and maybe well intentioned but are ignorant.

Are you drunk brah?

Originally Posted by Traum

Are students FT in the hospital MSIII and IV? I/Os, lytes, putting in lines, ABGs, sub-I to the intern, etc.. acting in exactly, exactly the same capacity as MD students governed by LCME?

In our IM, ER, etc. rotations? Yes.

Originally Posted by Traum

PAs, NPs, and CRNA fresh out get job offers b/w 106-120K. maybe in springerville they make 60K gross, and that is embarrassingly low for a PCP--as defined by ACOs.

CRNA's maybe. But pod students fresh out get job offers b/w $200-250k. I still don't see your point.

Originally Posted by Traum

Why not merge with Cornell, NYU, OHSU, Case Wastern--think we all know the answer....

Tough to create new programs when CPME will not accredit a new school currently. But yeah, I could see DMU merging with OHSU. The medical school in Portland. That makes sense...I think we all realize how out of touch you are with podiatric education and it's current rules, regulations, governing bodies, etc.

Originally Posted by Traum

It is a service provider, and ancillary--military classifies with speech pathologists, audiologists. Not the med corp (MDs, DOs, DMD/DDS).

Ah, so the military is your source for how service providers are grouped...

Originally Posted by Traum

Are head hunters and recruiters knocking down the door for that newly minted ankle and foot surgeon? with real job offers in cities (not in the wop wops), not a 1099 associate eeking out a living or playing patsy

Absolutely. Recruiters are actively seeking podiatrists to work in their hospitals, multi-specialty clinics, and current podiatry practices. Oh, and ortho groups are looking for newly minted ankle and foot surgeons, even one's without MD behind their name.

I do have one burning question. How many times are you going to copy and paste the same post/response in this thread? You managed to type over 300 words without saying anything new. You basically just copied and pasted the first post. What did that accomplish? I'm all for having a discussion about how the profession could continue to evolve and put future pods in a better positions to be successful. But you can't do that when the other person in the discussion might as well be a pull-string doll with the ability to only cycle through 5 phrases...'There's a snake in my boot!"

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Originally Posted by tenaciousplus

Maybe it's time to make a few changes in podiatric medicine to enhance its presence in the evolving healthcare environment. The concept of integrating the USMLE I and II along with core clinical clerkships akin to allo/osteo programs was floated last summer. This didn't materialize. The degree change to PMD would have been a nice change because it would reflect the evolution of the field. There have been advances in the profession which have unfortunately gone unnoticed. Maybe reevaluating these things would attract more attention from older, jaded, and/or, disenfranchised practitioners would increase membership in national and state associations as well as donations.

While I personally don't believe taking the USMLE is the correct solution (at this point) for increasing "legitimacy" (other folks' words, not mine) of podiatry, I wouldn't complain if they made us take it. Here is the problem with the USMLE

It would hurt perception of our education more than it would help at this point. Pod student pass rates would be atrocious, due to the quality of student we currently attract as well as our curriculum. You could not afford to waste a semester's worth of courses (and even more than that at some programs) on LEA, Pod med, Pod surg, Biomechanics, etc. And people often forget about Part II (which we would also now be taking). Goodbye to 90% of your pod rotations in 3rd and 4th year...which is basically all of your rotations in 4rd and 4th year. So before anyone talks USMLE, they better talk universal curriculum change (which they have not been as far as I know).

As for the degree change, I personally don't care. If it makes old timers feel better about themselves/our profession then fine, change it. Anyone with half a brain in medicine will realize it doesn't change anything as far as our current education and training is concerned. And more importantly, patients have no idea we aren't MD's anyways...we could put "BFD" behind our names and the general public would not notice, nor would they care. PMD? Sure, whatever helps you sleep at night.

You know how you get MD's to take you seriously (which I think a majority do anyways)? Prove it to them when you work with them as a resident or attending. Continue to advance podiatric literature/research, surgical/wound care/limb salvage techniques, etc. It's not going to happen overnight by simply changing around some letters and taking a test. DO's did it. It took time. It took attracting a higher quality applicant. Be patient and work hard in the mean time. It will come.

Originally Posted by dtrack22

You know how you get MD's to take you seriously (which I think a majority do anyways)? Prove it to them when you work with them as a resident or attending. Continue to advance podiatric literature/research, surgical/wound care/limb salvage techniques, etc. It's not going to happen overnight by simply changing around some letters and taking a test. DO's did it. It took time. It took attracting a higher quality applicant. Be patient and work hard in the mean time. It will come.

Originally Posted by dtrack22

While I personally don't believe taking the USMLE is the correct solution (at this point) for increasing "legitimacy" (other folks' words, not mine) of podiatry, I wouldn't complain if they made us take it. Here is the problem with the USMLE

It would hurt perception of our education more than it would help at this point. Pod student pass rates would be atrocious, due to the quality of student we currently attract as well as our curriculum. You could not afford to waste a semester's worth of courses (and even more than that at some programs) on LEA, Pod med, Pod surg, Biomechanics, etc. And people often forget about Part II (which we would also now be taking). Goodbye to 90% of your pod rotations in 3rd and 4th year...which is basically all of your rotations in 4rd and 4th year. So before anyone talks USMLE, they better talk universal curriculum change (which they have not been as far as I know).

As for the degree change, I personally don't care. If it makes old timers feel better about themselves/our profession then fine, change it. Anyone with half a brain in medicine will realize it doesn't change anything as far as our current education and training is concerned. And more importantly, patients have no idea we aren't MD's anyways...we could put "BFD" behind our names and the general public would not notice, nor would they care. PMD? Sure, whatever helps you sleep at night.

lol, what about BFF? or WTF?

on this note, I thought i'd let traum know that last week our dean told us that the allopathic COA, CMA "task force" that is evaluating podiatry school curriculum is quite impressed at our level of education.

NeilD = Traum = Whiskers

Originally Posted by dyk343

NeilD = Traum = Whiskers = Caddypod

Don't forget Caddypod as well.

Originally Posted by hematosis

lol, what about BFF? or WTF?

on this note, I thought i'd let traum know that last week our dean told us that the allopathic COA, CMA "task force" that is evaluating podiatry school curriculum is quite impressed at our level of education.

Is this for Western and Samuel Merritt or for all podiatry schools?

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Originally Posted by Ankle Breaker

Is this for Western and Samuel Merritt or for all podiatry schools?

I'm not 100% sure on this but although they are primarily concerned with california programs, I believe all schools are being examined for comparison purposes.

Originally Posted by hematosis

lol, what about BFF? or WTF?

on this note, I thought i'd let traum know that last week our dean told us that the allopathic COA, CMA "task force" that is evaluating podiatry school curriculum is quite impressed at our level of education.

Yeah, there hasn't been any news releases (that I've seen), for about a year on this task force, I was beginning to wonder if it died.....

Thanks for the update though.

Originally Posted by tenaciousplus

lthough these things are not important to you now as students when you get into practice and you're name is searched on the internet you will not under the current system provided by the NPI, be identified as podiatric physicians, rather as podiatric service providers.

Wouldn't worry too much about that. If your patient bothers to look you up at all it will be on this thing we call "google". Otherwise, referrals from their PCP or family/friends will be how you get many of your new patients.

Originally Posted by tenaciousplus

This database is used by Medicare and most insurance companies

We are classified as physicians under Title XVIII (Medicare). So I guess NPI can classify us how they'd like. They aren't the ones cutting the check.

hematosis,

WTF was my second choice...glad to hear they were impressed with curriculums. Can't hurt, even if nothing comes of it in terms of credentialing/licensing

And who could ever forget caddypod?

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