Saw a fellow "pre-med" cheat during an exam today.

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Originally Posted by MedPR

Chances are she won't steal your spot in med school. Don't worry about it.

^^This.

Originally Posted by Jaqen Hghar

And, how do you know she was cheating? Maybe she was having a personal/family crisis that she needed to attend to.

really? Try pulling out a cell phone during the MCAT. Try your explanation out.

Seriously, who gives a f u ck. If you don't get your A on an exam because of a cheater, you should have studied harder. Plus, going and tattling on someone just wastes your own time.

I laugh and realize I will do better than them and that they are cheating themselves.

Originally Posted by GreenStyle

Seriously, who gives a f u ck. If you don't get your A on an exam because of a cheater, you should have studied harder. Plus, going and tattling on someone just wastes your own time.

I laugh and realize I will do better than them and that they are cheating themselves.

They aren't cheating themselves. If they cheat on a biochemistry exam it won't effect them down the line. You don't need biochemistry, and the biochem you get in undergrad is wholly insufficient for medical school. Hell, I'd say you don't even need previous biochem from undergrad.

It's the attitude that is the problem here. Are you going to quick your trap shut when you see your physician colleagues taking their own drugs and hurts patients in the process? You going to look away when a fellow physician overcharges medicare for services not rendered? You going to deal out opiates and benzos to any SOB who walks into your clinic screaming of 12/10 pain or they lost their last prescription and they need a refill ten days early?

You shouldn't let people walk on you like that. Have some balls, stand up for yourself.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

really? Try pulling out a cell phone during the MCAT. Try your explanation out.

Who said anything about the MCAT? I said that because I've had a personal experience with this. I told the prof ahead of time that I may need to leave the room to deal with a family problem. She was okay with it and luckily I didn't have to, but the point is you never know.

Originally Posted by Jaqen Hghar

Who said anything about the MCAT? I said that because I've had a personal experience with this. I told the prof ahead of time that I may need to leave the room to deal with a family problem. She was okay with it and luckily I didn't have to, but the point is you never know.

Did you miss the part of OP's story where she pulled the cell phone out midexam, at her desk?

Sounds a little different than stepping outside the room and taking an emergency call, don't you think?

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

...It's the attitude that is the problem here. Are you going to quick your trap shut when you see your physician colleagues taking their own drugs and hurts patients in the process? You going to look away when a fellow physician overcharges medicare for services not rendered? You going to deal out opiates and benzos to any SOB who walks into your clinic screaming of 12/10 pain or they lost their last prescription and they need a refill ten days early?...

Why is it that everytime this topic comes up it's the med students who understand the implications of cheating, while the Pre-meds think it's no big deal.

It's not about her taking your seat in medical school, it's about her acting negligently with a patient in the future and trying to hide from it.

Report it!

Originally Posted by slumberjack

Snitches get stitches.

You sound like such a badass. Nice work!

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Did you miss the part of OP's story where she pulled the cell phone out midexam, at her desk?

Sounds a little different than stepping outside the room and taking an emergency call, don't you think?

She was most likely cheating. I never said she wasn't. I still don't care either way.

Originally Posted by Neurosis

I'm not sure I agree as to whether it is in fact as "black and white" as you make it out to be. this actually reminds me of another thread with a very similar topic. it turned into a multi-page fiasco with one group claiming the other was overly sanctimonious, whiles the latter questioned the ethics of the former. so, clearly it isn't as clear-cut as you suggest.

I remember that thread quite well...and had the same response there too.

Just because there is a lot of disagreement on the issue does not mean it is NOT black and white.

I think if one were to ask the professor or TA if it was ok to use your phone to look up answers on an exam, the answer would definitely be no. If you then asked them if they would want you to turn in anyone you saw doing that, the answer would almost certainly be yes.

The issue is not about being in anyone's business, trying to secure a curve, being holier than though or anything like that, for me it is about holding my peers accountable and stopping blatantly wrong action. I would expect them to do the same to me. When we collectively hold each other accountable, good things happen. When we "let things work themselves out" or turn a blind eye, situations deteriorate.

The other thing that always bothers me about this stuff is all this talk about being anonymous when turning people in. I don't understand why people are so concerned about anonymity. I am not going to announce to the entire class that this person is a cheater, but I have no problem attaching my name to a statement I send to the professor or TA attesting to what I saw.

Believe it or not I am a pretty easy going guy...I don't go around looking to get into people's business or trying to catch people doing wrong things. It is not my place. When I do happen to come across wrong doing, I will do the right thing and take action.

Lemme get this straight..your teacher lets the students leave during exams?

The teacher is just ASKING the students to cheat at that point..

surprise: it was a humanities exam

lolololol

jk no offense to my humanities major premed buddies <3

Who has time to leave to the bathroom for 5 minutes. If you do is because you probably don't know sh!t and are desperate that cheating a question or 2 isn't going make a huge difference. I understand people's argument on the honor thing, but if a person has to cheat in order to do well in a test is because probably 1) he/she is a slacker 2) don't have the brains. Either way, people like this will most likely get weed it out during the med school application process. And remember there is the MCAT, the great equalizer. I admit that I would get mad, but I wouldn't go up to the professor like a pusy whining about a cheater.

Originally Posted by typicalindian

surprise: it was a humanities exam

lolololol

jk no offense to my humanities major premed buddies <3

watch man, watch it!!

Why are you watching your classmate's crotch during the exam?

Originally Posted by lobo12

Who has time to leave to the bathroom for 5 minutes. If you do is because you probably don't know sh!t and are desperate that cheating a question or 2 isn't going make a huge difference. I understand people's argument on the honor thing, but if a person has to cheat in order to do well in a test is because probably 1) he/she is a slacker 2) don't have the brains. Either way, people like this will most likely get weed it out during the med school application process. And remember there is the MCAT, the great equalizer. I admit that I would get mad, but I wouldn't go up to the professor like a pusy whining about a cheater.

Wow, premeds are terrible. All you people are concerned with is getting from undergrad into medical school.

Guess what? People cheat in medical school, too. We can make the same caveat's you're making for undergrad for medical school. "They'll get weeded out by boards and won't get into residency".

You guys are just cowards, for real. Afraid some random person in a liberal arts class is going to get pissed at you? Afraid you'll be labeled a snitch? Have some principle.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Wow, premeds are terrible. All you people are concerned with is getting from undergrad into medical school.

Guess what? People cheat in medical school, too. We can make the same caveat's you're making for undergrad for medical school. "They'll get weeded out by boards and won't get into residency".

You guys are just cowards, for real. Afraid some random person in a liberal arts class is going to get pissed at you? Afraid you'll be labeled a snitch? Have some principle.

Being a snitch is not my thing, I have more important things to worry about like trying to maximize my potential as a person. Your principle is not mine... Also I do care about many other things than getting into med school and that's why I wouldn't tell.

Originally Posted by lobo12

Being a snitch is not my thing, I have more important things to worry about like trying to maximize my potential as a person. Your principle is not mine... Also I do care about many other things than getting into med school and that's why I wouldn't tell.

So, you're never going to snitch?

You see a fellow resident taking oxycodone and alprazolam you know wasn't prescribed to him in the clinic. Are you going to the chair about it?

A dad, a long time patient of yours, brings in his kid and on x-ray has bilateral spiral fractures in his arms and body bruising consistent with child abuse. Are you going to report it?

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

So, you're never going to snitch?

You see a fellow resident taking oxycodone and alprazolam you know wasn't prescribed to him in the clinic. Are you going to the chair about it?

No, I would talk to this person and see if he/she is doing ok, and sort of thoroughly asses the situation. If I were to go to the chair, I can damage his/her career and probably worsen the situation for the person.

In the second situation, I will have to report the incident-it's the law.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

So, you're never going to snitch?

You see a fellow resident taking oxycodone and alprazolam you know wasn't prescribed to him in the clinic. Are you going to the chair about it?

A dad, a long time patient of yours, brings in his kid and on x-ray has bilateral spiral fractures in his arms and body bruising consistent with child abuse. Are you going to report it?

cheating on a college test ≠ breaking the law with drug consumption

cheating on a college test ≠ child abuse

...people can extrapolate convolutions to their wildest dreams...

"Oh, you didn't report your friend for not wearing his seatbelt? Jesus, the principles of some people! What would you do if you saw him commit vehicular homicide?!"

Keep it real, dude.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

So, you're never going to snitch?

You see a fellow resident taking oxycodone and alprazolam you know wasn't prescribed to him in the clinic. Are you going to the chair about it?

A dad, a long time patient of yours, brings in his kid and on x-ray has bilateral spiral fractures in his arms and body bruising consistent with child abuse. Are you going to report it?

Slippery-slope argument. Logical fallacies FTW.

You might as well say, "you wouldn't report her for cheating is like walking by a live action gangbang rape and eating ice cream"

Keep it in the scope of the situation.

The consequences of getting an IA for cheating are severe. I wouldn't want to bring that down on someone because of a single incident like this. What I would do is, make a note of the date of the incident, see if any of your buddies in class were witnesses also, and if it becomes clear that this is an ongoing thing (cheating on multiple exams, quizzes, etc), report her without a shred of guilt.

Everyone makes mistakes; everyone has moments of weakness. I am all for recognizing and forgiving these things. But someone who displays a shameless and ongoing disregard for academic ethics has no place in a university, much less a medical school.

Originally Posted by Blais

cheating on a college test ≠ breaking the law with drug consumption

cheating on a college test ≠ child abuse

...people can extrapolate convolutions to their wildest dreams...

"Oh, you didn't report your friend for not wearing his seatbelt? Jesus, the principles of some people! What would you do if you saw him commit vehicular homicide?!"

Keep it real, dude.

Originally Posted by Hanguk

Slippery-slope argument. Logical fallacies FTW.

You might as well say, "you wouldn't report her for cheating is like walking by a live action gangbang rape and eating ice cream"

Keep it in the scope of the situation.

Ya'll will be the one's who will have lie to adcoms about what you'd do when asked this same question.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

So, you're never going to snitch?

You see a fellow resident taking oxycodone and alprazolam you know wasn't prescribed to him in the clinic. Are you going to the chair about it?

A dad, a long time patient of yours, brings in his kid and on x-ray has bilateral spiral fractures in his arms and body bruising consistent with child abuse. Are you going to report it?

To me this argument doesn't make sense.

I can't say that I wouldn't ever snitch on someone for cheating on an exam. But, I can say that I would never snitch on my best friend for cheating on an exam. Now, let's say, hypothetically, me and this same friend attend the same residency together and I see him stealing unprescribed medicine or being negligent with a patient. I would absolutely report him.

Telling on someone for cheating on an exam and reporting about any of the examples you used in your post are two separate beasts.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Ya'll will be the one's who will have lie to adcoms about what you'd do when asked this same question.

Yes, because that would be a first.

All those that volunteer at the hospital do it out of sincere curiosity -- right after their advisor said it was mandatory.

All those that serve the homeless do it for personal pleasure and fulfillment -- until they submit their application, that is.

All those that value diversity really do (to the degree they claim) and all those that claim to wish to practice in rural egypt really do, too.

Everyone committed the exact hours they claimed and everyone has a deep interest in their research.

Everyone wants to go into primary care and everyone overcame great life-altering adversity while growing up.
...
Is it right? Is it wrong? Or is it anything more than an expensive "game of bullshyt" between applicants and admissions committees?

Look, the game is superficial. In order to win, you gotta play. You know this, you already played. That said, if someone naturally satisfies all the game's conditions (which you must have, given your comments) good for them. For the rest of the 99% of applicants, sometimes they are simply going to have to say what the adcom wants to hear. It isn't illegal, it isn't harmful, it isn't child abuse or drug use. It's the game just being the game -- and the extrapolation ends with it.

Originally Posted by Blais

Yes, because that would be a first.

All those that volunteer at the hospital do it out of sincere curiosity -- right after their advisor said it was mandatory.

All those that serve the homeless do it for personal pleasure and fulfillment -- until they submit their application, that is.

All those that value diversity really do (to the degree they claim) and all those that claim to wish to practice in rural egypt really do too.

Everyone committed the exact hours they claimed and everyone has a deep interest in their research.

Everyone wants to go into primary care and everyone overcame great life-altering adversity while growing up.
...
Is it right? Is it wrong? Or is it anything more than a "game of bullshyt" with admissions committees?

Look, the game is superficial. In order to win, you gotta play. You know this, you already played. That said, if someone naturally satisfies all the game's conditions (which you must have) good for them. For the rest of the 99% of applicants, they are going to have to say what the adcom wants to hear. It isn't illegal, it isn't harmful, it isn't child abuse or drug use. It's the game just being the game -- and the extrapolation ends with it.

Yeah, I volunteered in stuff I liked and I love research. Sorry you feel it's necessary to be a liar to get ahead in life. Lots of things aren't illegal, doesn't mean you should idly sit by and watch many of those things happen.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Ya'll will be the one's who will have lie to adcoms about what you'd do when asked this same question.

Would I?

Actually whenever reading syllabi for my classes, there would always be sections about penalties regarding cheating but never a requirement for students who witness cheating to tell any proper authority. Legally I'm not mandated to. Ethically, I could be. Realistically, it depends.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Yeah, I volunteered in stuff I liked and I love research. Sorry you feel it's necessary to be a liar to get ahead in life. Lots of things aren't illegal, doesn't mean you should idly sit by and watch many of those things happen.

That is pretty poor logical reasoning, dude. I see you're working the high road with all your might, but I never said anything about "necessity" or "my own situation"... just arguing a side.

All deviations from the truth make one a "liar" and, essentially wrong. "Do I look fat in this dress? Did you like your birthday present? Do you want to eat at my parent's tonight? Do you want to practice rural care?"

You are the bastion of truth and without flaw.

Now, I'm not gonna say that I feel sorry for your future patients that will have to witness your magesty but...would that make a lie of omission? Burnett says yes.

Originally Posted by Blais

That is pretty poor logical reasoning, dude. I see you're working the high road with all your might, but I never said anything about "necessity" or "my own situation".

All deviations from the truth make one a "liar" and, essentially wrong. "Do I look fat in this dress? Did you like your birthday present?"

You are the bastion of truth.

Now, I'm not gonna say that I feel sorry for your future patients, but...

Was I extrapolating? Yeah.

But seriously? Your argument is that tons of people do it and that makes it ok? Tons of people cheat medicare and welfare, too. Doesn't really hurt you that much, should you be pissed off and report someone if you found out they were abusing the system?

And edit: yeah, clear deviations from the truth make you a liar. Once or a million times.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Was I extrapolating? Yeah.

But seriously? Your argument is that tons of people do it and that makes it ok? Tons of people cheat medicare and welfare, too. Doesn't really hurt you that much, should you be pissed off and report someone if you found out they were abusing the system?

And edit: yeah, clear deviations from the truth make you a liar. Once or a million times.

My examples ("fat in dress", etc) were pretty benign. Your stance surprises me as it then means that everyone is a liar. Yes, everyone and the whole point is moot.
If every. single. person. on earth does something, by what measuring stick does it become wrong? By who's morals?

There is more of a gradient than you wish to acknowledge with how things work.

Originally Posted by Blais

Then everyone is a liar. Yes, everyone.

li·ar/ˈlīər/
Noun:
A person who tells lies.

yup.

I could care less what you all do as individuals. The only reason I am pissed off about this is the outright mocking of people who "snitch". I'd snitch on this girl in a heartbeat, especially because I don't know her. You wouldn't? Fine, whatever.

You don't need to look down on those who would tattle. They obviously care they put a lot of effort and time into their grades and feel those who didn't don't deserve grades that reflect that.

Obviously, my scenarios are not total extrapolation. Look at what happens to people who are whistleblowers in big companies or in government. They lose their jobs or get witchhunted. Our society hates all forms of "snitching" and it's pretty disgusting. Look at what happend to Jesselyn Radack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesselyn_Radack)

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

li·ar/ˈlīər/
Noun:
A person who tells lies.

yup.

But you said you weren't a liar 10 minutes ago.

Then, by your own definition (thank you for that), given your agreement with the statement prior, you show that you are a liar.

So, were you lying about being a liar?

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

li·ar/ˈlīər/
Noun:
A person who tells lies.

yup.

I could care less what you all do as individuals. The only reason I am pissed off about this is the outright mocking of people who "snitch". I'd snitch on this girl in a heartbeat, especially because I don't know her. You wouldn't? Fine, whatever.

You don't need to look down on those who would tattle. They obviously care they put a lot of effort and time into their grades and feel those who didn't don't deserve grades that reflect that.

Obviously, my scenarios are not total extrapolation. Look at what happens to people who are whistleblowers in big companies or in government. They lose their jobs or get witchhunted. Our society hates all forms of "snitching" and it's pretty disgusting. Look at what happend to Jesselyn Radack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesselyn_Radack)

I don't know if you're just making a general statement to the populace or what (seem to be switching between them and me), because I didn't say anything in this thread about "looking down on those who would tattle".

Originally Posted by Blais

My examples ("fat in dress", etc) were pretty benign. Your stance surprises me as it then means that everyone is a liar. Yes, everyone and the whole point is moot.
If every. single. person. on earth does something, by what measuring stick does it become wrong? By who's morals?

There is more of a gradient than you wish to acknowledge with how things work.

Jesus, I know your fat woman in a dress analogy was really good and all, but I was being facetious.

There are grey areas, yeah. People can overemphasize stuff in their application and I guess that's fine and dandy. But saying you did 1000 hours serving homeless people gruel in downtown detroit when you did 1 hour is being dishonest and shows poor character.

Telling an adcom you'd turn your friend over to the school cheating board, or whatever, when you wouldn't is just stupid. Have some balls and say what you think.

There is a line that gets crossed, and for some people that line is different.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Was I extrapolating? Yeah.

But seriously? Your argument is that tons of people do it and that makes it ok? Tons of people cheat medicare and welfare, too. Doesn't really hurt you that much, should you be pissed off and report someone if you found out they were abusing the system?

Your girlfriend (or boyfriend) is sitting next to you for an exam. She/he is close to failing the class and during the exam sneaks a peak at your paper which allows her/him to pass the exam and thus the class. You notice her/him doing this.

Do you report her/him to the professor?

The fact of the matter is that nobody is appointed moral guardian of the city on a hill. Don't unilaterally take up the role.

And edit: yeah, clear deviations from the truth make you a liar. Once or a million times.

Just like if you make one mistake that makes you a failure, or if you snap at your wife that makes you an abusive husband. Or if you don't get all A's that means you're stupid.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Jesus, I know your fat woman in a dress analogy was really good and all, but I was being facetious.

There are grey areas, yeah. People can overemphasize stuff in their application and I guess that's fine and dandy. But saying you did 1000 hours serving homeless people gruel in downtown detroit when you did 1 hour is being dishonest and shows poor character.

Telling an adcom you'd turn your friend over to the school cheating board, or whatever, when you wouldn't is just stupid. Have some balls and say what you think.

There is a line that gets crossed, and for some people that line is different.

Jesus thanks you for the compliment of the fat woman in a dress analogy.

I guess we just have a difference of opinion... I place x degrees of difference between "inaccurately stating what one HAS done" vs. "inaccurately stating what one's interests are" vs. "inaccurately stating what one MIGHT do in a hypothetical situation".

You see no difference between them. Fine, both me and Jesus are okay with that.

Either way, I guess I'll call it a night. It is a good thing that "tattlers" and whistleblowers exist. If you are one of them, thank you for your service/willingness to maintain the equilibrium between things. So, we have a disagreement of where the line is drawn between what warrants whistleblowing and might not. That's shows diversity of opinion...and let me tell you how much I value diversity.

Originally Posted by Blais

Jesus thanks you for the compliment of the fat woman in a dress analogy.

I guess we just have a difference of opinion... I place x degrees of difference between "inaccurately stating what one HAS done" vs. "inaccurately stating what one's interests are" vs. "inaccurately stating what one MIGHT do in a hypothetical situation".

You see no difference between them. Fine, both me and Jesus are okay with that.

Either way, I guess I'll call it a night. It is a good thing that "tattlers" and whistleblowers exist. If you are one of them, thank you for your service/willingness to maintain the equilibrium between things. So, we have a disagreement of where the line is drawn between what warrants whistleblowing and might not. That's shows diversity of opinion...and let me tell you how much I value diversity.

What you did there, I see it.

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

It's the attitude that is the problem here. Are you going to quick your trap shut when you see your physician colleagues taking their own drugs and hurts patients in the process? You going to look away when a fellow physician overcharges medicare for services not rendered? You going to deal out opiates and benzos to any SOB who walks into your clinic screaming of 12/10 pain or they lost their last prescription and they need a refill ten days early?

You shouldn't let people walk on you like that. Have some balls, stand up for yourself.

Originally Posted by SLC

Why is it that everytime this topic comes up it's the med students who understand the implications of cheating, while the Pre-meds think it's no big deal.

It's not about her taking your seat in medical school, it's about her acting negligently with a patient in the future and trying to hide from it.

Report it!

Originally Posted by tiedyeddog

Ya'll will be the one's who will have lie to adcoms about what you'd do when asked this same question.

In this case to report or not to report is our own decision. You are not required to report it. This is entirely different than not reporting fellow physicians endangering patients. These two situations are not comparable.

I was asked the exact question and told the interviewer I would not report instead would talk to the person directly to tell them not to do it again. I believe in second chances.

TL; DR: get out "med" student.

FYI: It was a Chem II exam, not a humanities class.


I've decided that I'm not going to do it and have realized that I'm just upset at myself for not performing as well as I should have. I'm going to let it go.

Originally Posted by Hanguk

Slippery-slope argument. Logical fallacies FTW.

You might as well say, "you wouldn't report her for cheating is like walking by a live action gangbang rape and eating ice cream"

Keep it in the scope of the situation.

But what if I REALLY love ice cream?

Originally Posted by Yoseph101

Your girlfriend (or boyfriend) is sitting next to you for an exam. She/he is close to failing the class and during the exam sneaks a peak at your paper which allows her/him to pass the exam and thus the class. You notice her/him doing this.

Do you report her/him to the professor?

The fact of the matter is that nobody is appointed moral guardian of the city on a hill. Don't unilaterally take up the role.

Just like if you make one mistake that makes you a failure, or if you snap at your wife that makes you an abusive husband. Or if you don't get all A's that means you're stupid.

I wouldn't date a cheater. If it was a dear friend, you're right, I wouldn't rat immediately. I would probably talk to them first and then if I saw it again, rat and find friends who didn't suck at life.

You're right no one is appointed moral guardian of squat, but that doesn't mean we should take a llaissez faire attitude about everything. The person in the OP's story isn't a friend. What exactly keeps him for telling the prof about the chick who outright cheated, or at least telling the prof to keep an eye out next time?

For your last point, I am not going to argue with you about semantics. I already said my statement on lying once was a hyperbole.

Originally Posted by Blais

Jesus thanks you for the compliment of the fat woman in a dress analogy.

no prob.

I guess we just have a difference of opinion... I place x degrees of difference between "inaccurately stating what one HAS done" vs. "inaccurately stating what one's interests are" vs. "inaccurately stating what one MIGHT do in a hypothetical situation".

You see no difference between them. Fine, both me and Jesus are okay with that.

Either way, I guess I'll call it a night. It is a good thing that "tattlers" and whistleblowers exist. If you are one of them, thank you for your service/willingness to maintain the equilibrium between things. So, we have a disagreement of where the line is drawn between what warrants whistleblowing and might not. That's shows diversity of opinion...and let me tell you how much I value diversity.

That's fair and I mean no hard feelings. I feel all of your points were valid, we just have different moral barometers. I am not saying mine is "better" than yours or yours is "better" than mine, we're just different. I guess the point is we both have one.

Originally Posted by FattySlug

I was asked the exact question and told the interviewer I would not report instead would talk to the person directly to tell them not to do it again. I believe in second chances.

TL; DR: get out "med" student.

Are you going to be this randoms person's personal watchdog to ensure they won't ever cheat again?

And, not sure what the quotations of "med" student is supposed to mean. Are you insinuating I am not a medical student?

Lol. Once a cheater always a cheater dude. I just laugh at that because I know those people will never succeed in medical school. I knew of over several dozens of students ( independent and greeks) at my university who ritually cheated on exams. Bothered the heck out of me but I realized that in 10 years they will be working at Target or Wallmart. Suprisingly, some of those cheaters got into my state medical school. If I could only see them struggle now...

Originally Posted by GNE24

Lol. Once a cheater always a cheater dude. I just laugh at that because I know those people will never succeed in medical school

You'll be surprised, I assure you....

.

Originally Posted by GNE24

Lol. Once a cheater always a cheater dude. .

Yeah...If i go by what you're saying then pretty much everyone is a cheat (like that one time in 3rd grade on that spelling test for example)...also there may have been extenuating circumstances that we are ignorant to, maybe she ritually studies but forgot to this one time because she was up all night taking care of her sick grandma or something...you just can't sumrise that because a person cheats they're always going to do it, because that's unmitigated bull.

Originally Posted by OREdwardsJR

FYI: It was a Chem II exam, not a humanities class.


I've decided that I'm not going to do it and have realized that I'm just upset at myself for not performing as well as I should have. I'm going to let it go.

called it

*pats self on back*

Originally Posted by FattySlug

In this case to report or not to report is our own decision. You are not required to report it. This is entirely different than not reporting fellow physicians endangering patients. These two situations are not comparable.

I was asked the exact question and told the interviewer I would not report instead would talk to the person directly to tell them not to do it again. I believe in second chances.

TL; DR: get out "med" student.

Of course the two situations are not compatible, at least not directly. But we can extrapolate something about the character of someone who is willing to cheat on an exam in college, and that something that is not wanted in a physician.

So imagine a decade down the road. You have this girl and another (more honest) colleague of hers. They are both general surgeons and both are performing separate cholecystectomies. Prior radiographic studies reveal that the area around the triangle of Calot is obscured by inflammation and the procedure is looking risky. Which one do you think is more likely to be honest about the risks with their patient.

Now imagine that the imaging was good and that both surgeons felt like the operation would be fairly straight-forward. But now both operations have had complications, nicked bile ducts. This is going to be a painful recovery, and the surgeons both know that the problem is probably directly related to a mistake on their part. Which surgeon is going to own up to the mistake, and which is going to try to ignore it, or blame it on something else?

And which one is more likely to get sued?

Chew on those questions for a while and see if you can make the connection between cheating on an exam, and being a risk to your patients. Perhaps this girl won't be. But I don't think I'd be willing to take that risk as her patient. And unless the OP reports it, her actual patients won't even know that they're potentially dealing with someone who might harm them and pretend like nothing happened.

It's about integrity. As a physician you will be expected to hold you colleagues to the highest of standards of personal and professional conduct. Why not get started now, especially since the OP and the girl in question both profess to want to join the physician ranks someday.

Originally Posted by SLC

Of course the two situations are not compatible, at least not directly. But we can extrapolate something about the character of someone who is willing to cheat on an exam in college, and that something that is not wanted in a physician.

I don't agree. I think the idea that behaviour --> character, or that "actions speak louder than words", is flawed, especially in this example. Although there are certainly many people who do not cheat because they think it is morally wrong, there are many others who would but do not because they are scared of the consequences, of being caught. The fact that this girl did cheat and quite blatantly as well speaks more, I think, to her impulsivity and her lack of self-control than her actual moral character. Or, rather, I don't think her actions differentiate her moral character from that of many -- or perhaps the majority -- of premeds, who all would jump at the chance to take any advantage they could get their hands on if the consequences were nulled.