Need guidance/non-tradition student

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Hi guys.

I am so lucky to have found this forum. Looking over some other threads, there are some really nice and helpful people on here. Hope you can help me make an informed decision because sometimes books don't have the answers one is looking for.

Bio: I had no direction in undergrads (generally sciences) but mostly because of some mental health issues in the family, I found myself interested in psychology. I got my psych degree, worked as a research assistant and all that, got two interviews out of fifteen, got into a respectable PhD grad program on a full scholarship. However, I got a year long leave after I did a single year of study because the issues in my family were still going on and me being a very sensitive person and also close with my family, could not focus on my studies being an ocean away from them. Of course, a year into my coming back home, things took a turn for the worse and I ended up having to seek treatment for my own mental health issues. For various reasons, I could not get my medical leave extended and so I was officially let go by my program the following year.

It has taken me quite a few years but I have worked through my own stuff and thankfully recently my family issues have finally stabilized as well. So here I am, in my early 30s now, and trying to decide once again how to proceed in my life. I think if I want to go back to grad school, I have to start from zero. I need to retake GRE, start doing research/volunteer work, and take a few classes--and do very well in them. Because I don't think me getting A's ten years ago means anything in a grad school application evaluated today. So I'm thinking at least two to three years from now before I can be considered competitive. And then you add another five to eight years: to complete the program, do internship, a year or two of postdoc and get licensed. So I would be, say, 43 and with 200k+ of loans, starting to practice (or teach or do research...or more likely, all three).

So, what do you think? Is it worth it given the state of the field (job security, salary, etc) to make this kind of investment in my future?

What other realistic options are available for a person like me then, with only a bachelor's degree in psychology? I am an introvert, intuitive and very sensitive, and I very much love learning. So don't say business. I don't have the, well, overconfidence and that go-getter attitude necessary to succeed in business--which is what pretty much everybody has told me to go into. A friend of mine, a recent psych graduate told me while a salesman she knows--who has no college degree--has made over half a million bucks in the last ten years, she has amassed half that amount in debt. That's sad.

I have looked at sociology and anthroplogy, which happen to be close enough to psychology and generally in tune with my personality and values, but also philosophy (I loved my history and philosophy of clinical psychology in first year of grad school, more so than courses in assessment or research seminar.) But those programs require two years of upper level undergrad courses in those areas for starters, so for PhD we're looking at as many years of study as clinical psych, and with a career that has an even more uncertain future. A sociologist I know is working as a statistician on a research project, along side a masters in clinical psych. Go figure.

Sorry about the long post. I appreciate any help.

Originally Posted by HopeAlive

Bio: I had no direction in undergrads (generally sciences) but mostly because of some mental health issues in the family, I found myself interested in psychology. I got my psych degree, worked as a research assistant and all that, got two interviews out of fifteen, got into a respectable PhD grad program on a full scholarship. However, I got a year long leave after I did a single year of study because the issues in my family were still going on and me being a very sensitive person and also close with my family, could not focus on my studies being an ocean away from them. Of course, a year into my coming back home, things took a turn for the worse and I ended up having to seek treatment for my own mental health issues. For various reasons, I could not get my medical leave extended and so I was officially let go by my program the following year.

It has taken me quite a few years but I have worked through my own stuff and thankfully recently my family issues have finally stabilized as well. So here I am, in my early 30s now, and trying to decide once again how to proceed in my life. I think if I want to go back to grad school, I have to start from zero. I need to retake GRE, start doing research/volunteer work, and take a few classes--and do very well in them. Because I don't think me getting A's ten years ago means anything in a grad school application evaluated today. So I'm thinking at least two to three years from now before I can be considered competitive. And then you add another five to eight years: to complete the program, do internship, a year or two of postdoc and get licensed. So I would be, say, 43 and with 200k+ of loans, starting to practice (or teach or do research...or more likely, all three).

So, what do you think? Is it worth it given the state of the field (job security, salary, etc) to make this kind of investment in my future?

First of all, welcome!

My first impression is you had what it takes to get into a clinical program before, you most likely still have what it takes to get in now....if it's what you truly want and you can put a healthy, adaptive "spin" on your last few years out of the field. After all, it's your life story that is told in your personal statement by you.

You're asking a Clinical Psychology forum how you should proceed and if it is worth the investment. Most of us are making this investment in the future and I dare say some us are struggling. However, is it worth it the time, energy and money? Only you know the answer. For me, yes...it is worth every penny, day and ounce of energy because I value the trade. It also suits my personality well. My family is growing alongside my career which is both challenging and fun. (I am married with children and nearing the end of a clinical psych PhD program.)

My one piece of advice if you want to return to the 'business of helping' (which is so understated) is go for those full scholarship or partial funding programs again and try not to earn the $200K debt.

Good luck!

If you are still going for those PhD programs, find a funded program in the area of your interest with a good fit with PIs.

Your age, maturity, and life/work experiences can be an asset so use them to your advantage in your personal statements and interviews! Good luck

You can use some (admittedly rough) data to get a rough estimate of the financial benefits of pursuing the doctorate. Let's look at some general figures:

-Current median salary for a psychologist is generally reported to be about $65,000 per year.
-Average 25K per year stipend/salary during the your doctoral training years (in fully funded program)
-You indicate that you are currently in your early 30s, so lets say you are 33.
-You indicated in your post that you're age upon beginning to practice would be 43
-Lets' assume you'll retire at 68 (35 years from now, 25 years after beginning your doctoral level career)
-Let's assume that your average salary over the next 35 years with your current bachelor's degree will be $35,000 per year.

No lets do some math, using the assumptions above

If you forgo the doctoral program you'll earn a total of $1,225,000 over the next 35 years (35 x 35K)

If you complete the degree, you'll earn a total of $1,625,000 in the 25 years between starting your doctoral level career and retirement, plus $250,000 during the 10 years of training, for a total of $1,875,000 total

That give us a difference in earnings of $650,000 over the next 35 years if you go to a fully funded program (~18.5K/year). If the program is not funded and your can't work full time, you'll need to subtract off some of the earning during the training years, as well as any loan amounts. Using your figure of 200K in loans and assuming 6 years of non-paid training (at 25K/year), you'd be subtracting 350K, for a total difference in earnings of 300K over the next 35 years(~8.5K/year).

This assumes that the 200k in loans is your repayment costs (principal plus interest). If it is just the loan amount, you need to add 80-160K in interest costs (depending on interest rate and repayment plan). If that is the case, your monthly payments will be so ridiculous, that you really shouldn't bother. Check out one of the online loan repayment calculators to get a sense of what a 200K student loan really means.

Now, there are a lot of rough estimates and assumption in figures. Obviously, a lower current earning potential or higher doctoral salary would increase the earning potential of the doctorate degree. You also could work longer (e.g. retire older). Your age is a major factor in this equation- basically 1/3 of the remainder of your working years would be spent in working towards your degree/licensure. This really cuts into your earning potential. Trying to speed things up through less than reputable accelerated or "alternative" programs is likely to increase expenses while reducing future salary, making it at best a wash.

This is also just financial cost. There are some other costs of the doctorate degree (i.e. it can take a lot of work, be a major pain in the butt, and seriously disrupt your life). Are these really worth an overall increase in earning of 10K/year? There are also some other benefits- in addition to higher salaries, you might have a job that's more enjoyable, with more autonomy. I'll let you figure out those equations!

Seriously- fill in your figures and so some math to make sure that it is a financially viable pursuit. Loans are such nebulous things, until you have to start sending $1000/month to some bank in Delaware.

Originally Posted by HopeAlive

Hi guys.

It has taken me quite a few years but I have worked through my own stuff and thankfully recently my family issues have finally stabilized as well. So here I am, in my early 30s now, and trying to decide once again how to proceed in my life. I think if I want to go back to grad school, I have to start from zero. I need to retake GRE, start doing research/volunteer work, and take a few classes--and do very well in them. Because I don't think me getting A's ten years ago means anything in a grad school application evaluated today. So I'm thinking at least two to three years from now before I can be considered competitive. And then you add another five to eight years: to complete the program, do internship, a year or two of postdoc and get licensed. So I would be, say, 43 and with 200k+ of loans, starting to practice (or teach or do research...or more likely, all three).

So, what do you think? Is it worth it given the state of the field (job security, salary, etc) to make this kind of investment in my future?

What other realistic options are available for a person like me then, with only a bachelor's degree in psychology? I am an introvert, intuitive and very sensitive, and I very much love learning. So don't say business. I don't have the, well, overconfidence and that go-getter attitude necessary to succeed in business--which is what pretty much everybody has told me to go into. A friend of mine, a recent psych graduate told me while a salesman she knows--who has no college degree--has made over half a million bucks in the last ten years, she has amassed half that amount in debt. That's sad.

I think an important question you should ask yourself is what would you do instead? That is, if you decided NOT to pursue a doctorate in psychology, what would you do instead? Time doesn't wait, and you'll turn 43 regardless what you decide to do in the next 10ish years. You were accepted into a phd grad program before, that means you have the ability to do it again. It might be more difficult to get the momentum going, but you have the potential.

I know people might have a different take on this, but doing a ph.d. is too hard if it's JUST a means to an end (i.e. becoming a practicing psychologist). It's too long of a journey, and you'll be stressed out and overworked a lot of the times. But if you generally enjoy learning, are curious about the human psyche and behaviors, are genuinely excited about the kind of research that you do, then I say age isn't the most important factor. Now I'm not saying that age shouldn't considered, but I've known plenty of colleagues who return to get their ph.d. in their mid-30s because they've had a career change. It can be more challenging, especially if you also want to start a family, but if you find a supportive program/adviser, it can be done.

Now what I would strongly recommend is that you try to get into a fully funded program. Like some of the other posters mentioned, you do not want to come out with 200k in debt. It's also very draining to go through a ph.d. program being stressed about money all the time (on top of your other workloads and academic related stressors). That means getting your foot wet again with research jobs.

Final thought, I think masters degrees such as MSW or MFT are also viable options to consider. You'll have to mostly likely pay out of pocket, but they're only 2 years.

Good luck with this most difficult question of "what do I want to do with my life?"

while your point is well taken, I'm not sure I follow your math. I think to be fair we should be comparing earnings over the next 35 years regardless of the path one chooses. That is, you should be adding the 25k (do you really make 25k a year in a funded program?!?) a year for the 10 years, not subtracting the 10k difference.

The BA part is right:
35 years x 35k = 1,225,000

but the PhD path should be:
(10 years x 25k) + (25 years x 65k) = 1,875,000

for a difference of 650k.

Originally Posted by sydb1367

while your point is well taken, I'm not sure I follow your math. I think to be fair we should be comparing earnings over the next 35 years regardless of the path one chooses. That is, you should be adding the 25k (do you really make 25k a year in a funded program?!?) a year for the 10 years, not subtracting the 10k difference.

The BA part is right:
35 years x 35k = 1,225,000

but the PhD path should be:
(10 years x 25k) + (25 years x 65k) = 1,875,000

for a difference of 650k.

Yep- you are correct. I mistakenly didn't add that in. I"ll go back and edit for clarity. The 25K in the funded program was meant to be a rough estimate of the average for the on campus years (TA/RA/Practica), Internship, and Post Doc years. While your stipend might be less than 20K for the TA/RA/Practica, it will likely be around 25K for Internship and higher for Post-Doc positions. But again, rough estimates here.

Thanks for the replies guys and making me feel welcome here. I appreciate it.

I think you should just go for it! If you're still seriously contemplating finishing that path after so many years, it's obviously the best path you've found so far - most people would have buried that wish away and convinced themselves that they never really even wanted it by now lol Who cares if you're 60 yrs old when you finis...at least you're doing the things that interest you! Likewise, it is always better to shut the door to any regret you might feel about it later...nothing is worse than playing the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" game!

Also, you mentioned that you really enjoy the history and philosophical parts of psych - maybe you should consider applying to programs other than only clinical...maybe a general psych program or a social psych program would be good for you as well...plus that might cut a year off finishing completing your degree (won't have the internship year)...maybe go into academia...nothing makes a better professor than one who still loves to learns!

Originally Posted by psigirl

Final thought, I think masters degrees such as MSW or MFT are also viable options to consider. You'll have to mostly likely pay out of pocket, but they're only 2 years.

Just to amend this--most licensable masters programs advertise themselves as taking two years; some are more, or may take more today due to unavailability of classes due to budget cuts. But two years is coursework only; it will take another 2+ years of post degree work (which might be unpaid) in order to accrue sufficient hours for licensure. There may be a wait to sit for the licensing exam. A lot depends on your geographic region, whether you go for the MSW or MFT, etc. I believe that some folks in my geographic area have some much trouble accruing their MFT hours that it takes them 6 years post-degree! So if the doctoral path sounds daunting because of the time commitment, consider the realities of the "shorter" path in your geographic region and for the particular degree/license combo you would actually choose.

Originally Posted by HopeAlive

I have looked at sociology and anthroplogy, which happen to be close enough to psychology

I come from a psych underground psych background and am currently in a non-psych doctoral program, and I would caution you against making this assumption. Some of the top ranked sociology programs still have a positivist orientation which may, in some ways, mirror psychology, but sociology, anthropology, and the like are much more theoretically driven than psychology. In fact, having a background in or affinity for psychology is stigmatized in my program. As I recently noted on another thread, some sociology departments more closely resemble cultural studies or American studies than they do psychology. The funding structures in most of these (non-psych social science and humanities) departments are very different as well, with many grad students having to cobble together funding by chasing TAships in various departments around campus (i.e. we don't get accepted into programs with our funding tied to particular professors and their labs).

Originally Posted by HopeAlive

But those programs require two years of upper level undergrad courses in those areas for starters

This is not always true. There are people in my program (and others on campus) who never took a class in their current discipline prior to acceptance into the PhD program.

Originally Posted by HopeAlive

so for PhD we're looking at as many years of study as clinical psych,

Probably many more, as such programs are often much less structured than clin psych. Mean time to degree in one of the top programs in my discipline is 11+ years.

Originally Posted by HopeAlive

and with a career that has an even more uncertain future. A sociologist I know is working as a statistician on a research project, along side a masters in clinical psych. Go figure.

Good to see that you're thinking realistically about this. With a degree in sociology or anthropology, you'll be equipped to work as a prof or perhaps for the government or at some kind of research institute if your stats skills are good. But I know good people with beefy CVs who've been on the market for years with no nibbles. And academic employment prospects are even worse for people with philosophy and other humanities degrees. Part of the problem is that many of the tenured professors who steer bright students towards doctoral study (often with glib platitudes like "There will always be jobs for good people") actually got hired in an era when you could get a solid tenure track job with no publications. Now there are hundreds of qualified applicants for some academic jobs.

I think that you're young enough that your age shouldn't be a barrier (though I would steel myself for at least some age discrimination, if only in the form of microaggressions from the smug twenty-something grad student set). But you'd probably benefit from honing your desired career trajectory a bit more.

Wishing you good luck,
wigflip

Originally Posted by wigflip

Just to amend this--most licensable masters programs advertise themselves as taking two years; some are more, or may take more today due to unavailability of classes due to budget cuts. But two years is coursework only; it will take another 2+ years of post degree work (which might be unpaid) in order to accrue sufficient hours for licensure. There may be a wait to sit for the licensing exam. A lot depends on your geographic region, whether you go for the MSW or MFT, etc. I believe that some folks in my geographic area have some much trouble accruing their MFT hours that it takes them 6 years post-degree! So if the doctoral path sounds daunting because of the time commitment, consider the realities of the "shorter" path in your geographic region and for the particular degree/license combo you would actually choose.

I agree with the poster that geographic area and the degree in question has a lot to do with the time it takes to get licensed post-masters. Although I have to note that the 2 years in the program typically include both coursework AND clinical practicum. I know because I supervised some of the MA counseling students (this is also true with MSW program at my university). The poster is correct in noting that it'll take at least another 2 years for an MA graduates to get licensed (need post-masters clinical hrs), but i've never heard that there'a wait for licensing exam, and most of the students/friends I know who graduated with an MA in either clinical social work or counseling have managed to find "paying" jobs and eventually get licensed. Again, I'm only referring to MSW or LMHC degrees in my region, I'm not familiar with MFT programs. Once licensed, I believe MA level clinicians charge the same amount per hr of therapy as doctoral level psychologists.

Originally Posted by wigflip

it will take another 2+ years of post degree work (which might be unpaid) in order to accrue sufficient hours for licensure. There may be a wait to sit for the licensing exam. A lot depends on your geographic region, whether you go for the MSW or MFT, etc. I believe that some folks in my geographic area have some much trouble accruing their MFT hours that it takes them 6 years post-degree!

I'll note that it varies a LOT by state. California, for example, can be very much like what you described--graduates from master's programs working for FREE for YEARS just to get licensed. However, in my state and many others, graduates are readily finding paid employment in order to accrue supervised hours for full licensure. I am just about to graduate myself (with a masters) and I know several classmates and colleagues who will walk right into a salaried job. I would have had one, too, but I am walking right into a PhD program.

Originally Posted by psigirl

I agree with the poster that geographic area and the degree in question has a lot to do with the time it takes to get licensed post-masters. Although I have to note that the 2 years in the program typically include both coursework AND clinical practicum. I know because I supervised some of the MA counseling students (this is also true with MSW program at my university). The poster is correct in noting that it'll take at least another 2 years for an MA graduates to get licensed (need post-masters clinical hrs), but i've never heard that there'a wait for licensing exam, and most of the students/friends I know who graduated with an MA in either clinical social work or counseling have managed to find "paying" jobs and eventually get licensed. Again, I'm only referring to MSW or LMHC degrees in my region, I'm not familiar with MFT programs. Once licensed, I believe MA level clinicians charge the same amount per hr of therapy as doctoral level psychologists.

Actually, they get a little boost in their reimbursement rates from insurance companies and will typically charge more for cash clients. In addition, there are more panels that they can join, which means more opportunities for working with a wider client base.

Originally Posted by Psychadelic2012

I'll note that it varies a LOT by state. California, for example, can be very much like what you described--graduates from master's programs working for FREE for YEARS just to get licensed.

You must be a mindreader, Psychadelic, I was indeed thinking of CA...

Originally Posted by wigflip

You must be a mindreader, Psychadelic, I was indeed thinking of CA...

Of course you were. I was trying to stay vague about how I "knew" that, just in case you didn't want the state to be identified explicitly.

Psigirl, psychadelic2012, and in particular wigflip, thank you for your wonderful and helpful answers. Gosh, I had the flu for a week and then I come back here to find people posting in this thread, discussing options, giving advice, even telling me a bit about their own situation...and I'm just a stranger to this board, a new member. I'm really touched. I did not think anybody would bother replying to a thread by a new member and a non-traditional student, and read my very long story, but you kind and helpful people make me wish that I get accepted to a program populated by people like yourself.