Med Students - Grow a Spine

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I'm surprised mTOR is still here trolling.

Originally Posted by exi

I'm not sure why you're hanging around to take potshots at people in this thread. If physicians were paid a small fraction of what they're currently paid as compensation for everything involved in physicianhood, would you have still been willing to become one?

No. And I necessarily concealed that in order to be granted entry into this professional guild since I understood fully that this profession has a fiduciary responsibility to patient care as opposed to personal wealth. This isn't the financial services industry -- where the quality client services vis-a-vis profit dynamic is arguably openly even if not completely reversed.


Point being, the opportunity to practice medicine is a privilege that could have easily been removed from you (and, in all likelihood, would have been removed from you had you been more forthcoming about your motives to enter the field). If this was understood at the point of entry -- as it was in my case -- you have nothing to complain about. If it becomes apparent the social esteem or lucrativeness associated with the field evaporates -- you have no one to blame as it was never a promise to begin with and in fact would have in all likelihood kept you OUT. Either deal with it or leave the field.

Originally Posted by mTOR

No. And I necessarily concealed that in order to be granted entry into this professional guild since I understood fully that this profession has a fiduciary responsibility to patient care as opposed to personal wealth. This isn't the financial services industry -- where the quality client services vis-a-vis profit dynamic is arguably openly even if not completely reversed.


Point being, the opportunity to practice medicine is a privilege that could have easily been removed from you (and, in all likelihood, would have been removed from you had you been more forthcoming about your motives to enter the field). If this was understood at the point of entry -- as it was in my case -- you have nothing to complain about. If it becomes apparent the social esteem or lucrativeness associated with the field evaporates -- you have no one to blame as it was never a promise to begin with and in fact would have in all likelihood kept you OUT. Either deal with it or leave the field.

For how much medical schools talk about selecting for altruistic people, I'm surprised at how adverse everyone is to altruism.

Originally Posted by ucladoc2b

The collective earnings of all physicians likely dwarfs the combined salaries of all the F500 CEOs, sports stars, the Kardashians, etc. (Likely, physician earnings are probalby over $200BB, if not more).

850,000 licensed physicians in the US @ ~$175,000/year each on average comes to just under $150 billion.

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Originally Posted by nosleep

wow you will never hear a banker, lawyer, plumber, <insert other profession> say they should earn less because people in 3rd world countries are starving. Unfortunately, many in our profession think like this and it is a very flawed line of thinking that i think is prevalent and dangerous to the profession.

To all future doctors...nay...physicians, since everyone is a "doctor" these days, i urge you to stand up for your profession. We signed up to help and heal people and knew that certain sacrifices were required. However, this doesn't mean we are condemned to take abuse, get screwed, and act like cowards that surrender to anyone and everyone at the expense of our own well-being.

Society already has the perception that physicians are rich semi-pro golfers that chill on their fleet of yachts in their downtime. This is bad enough, but let's add lack of lobbying for our interests on top of that. But wait, there's more. Let's add those within the profession that rather than advocate for doctors do the opposite. This is not a good position to be in. Yet, people act surprised when our salaries are targeted for cuts (with no benefit to anyone). People act surprised when nurses begin saying they can do 95% of what we can. When you reach that point, it's already too late.

Unfortunately some people still do not get it. It's time to cut the holier-than-thou "physician's burden" attitude and grow a spine. I'm tired of seeing the constant hacking away at this profession while some just stand idly by and watch, or in some cases actually pitch in with an ax of their own. I urge everyone to stand up for themselves and the profession as a whole because if we don't then nobody else will.

Discuss - also mod please do not lock this...there is no "harassment" going on. I edited the post of any mentioning of other posters or their quotes.

amen.

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

For how much medical schools talk about selecting for altruistic people, I'm surprised at how adverse everyone is to altruism.

To be fair, many medical students (e.g. myself) averse to decreasing salaries certainly plan to perform some pro bono work. But that should be our choice, not others.'

Originally Posted by nosleep

Wow you will never hear a banker, lawyer, plumber, <insert other profession> say they should earn less because people in 3rd world countries are starving. Unfortunately, many in our profession think like this and it is a very flawed line of thinking that I think is prevalent and dangerous to the profession.

To all future doctors...nay...physicians, since everyone is a "doctor" these days, I urge you to stand up for your profession. We signed up to help and heal people and knew that certain sacrifices were required. However, this doesn't mean we are condemned to take abuse, get screwed, and act like cowards that surrender to anyone and everyone at the expense of our own well-being.

Society already has the perception that physicians are rich semi-pro golfers that chill on their fleet of yachts in their downtime. This is bad enough, but let's add lack of lobbying for our interests on top of that. But wait, there's more. Let's add those within the profession that rather than advocate for doctors do the opposite. This is not a good position to be in. Yet, people act surprised when our salaries are targeted for cuts (with no benefit to anyone). People act surprised when nurses begin saying they can do 95% of what we can. When you reach that point, it's already too late.

Unfortunately some people still do not get it. It's time to cut the holier-than-thou "physician's burden" attitude and grow a spine. I'm tired of seeing the constant hacking away at this profession while some just stand idly by and watch, or in some cases actually pitch in with an ax of their own. I urge everyone to stand up for themselves and the profession as a whole because if we don't then nobody else will.

DISCUSS - Also mod please do not lock this...there is no "harassment" going on. I edited the post of any mentioning of other posters or their quotes.

My family doctor goes on golfing trips just about once a week. Unfortunately the perception is more of a reality in some instances. That's not to say this is the way things should be, nor is it to say all physicians are similar. Just pointing it out because the comment made me laugh.

Originally Posted by gettheleadout

850,000 licensed physicians in the US @ ~$175,000/year each on average comes to just under $150 billion.

I had to imagine your avatar making these calculations.

Originally Posted by mTOR

No. And I necessarily concealed that in order to be granted entry into this professional guild since I understood fully that this profession has a fiduciary responsibility to patient care as opposed to personal wealth. This isn't the financial services industry -- where the quality client services vis-a-vis profit dynamic is arguably openly even if not completely reversed.

Point being, the opportunity to practice medicine is a privilege that could have easily been removed from you (and, in all likelihood, would have been removed from you had you been more forthcoming about your motives to enter the field). If this was understood at the point of entry -- as it was in my case -- you have nothing to complain about. If it becomes apparent the social esteem or lucrativeness associated with the field evaporates -- you have no one to blame as it was never a promise to begin with and in fact would have in all likelihood kept you OUT. Either deal with it or leave the field.

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

For how much medical schools talk about selecting for altruistic people, I'm surprised at how adverse everyone is to altruism.

Most physicians care a great deal about their patients, but caring for patients and wanting to be paid well are 2 separate issues. They are not mutually exclusive. You 2 need to quit acting like they are.

The focus of medical school admissions is to select students who can someday provide good patient care, not necessarily students who want to live austere lives in the process. Sure, it's great that some doctors choose to forgo earning extra money to live out their calling in life, but it's not a choice that all doctors have to make. Those who don't make that choice can still be good doctors capable of providing great care. If it is so important for doctors to live the lifestyles you espouse then wouldn't admission committees try much harder than they currently do to screen for applicants like you who are clearly so much more altruistic than the rest of us?

Let's say you have to to choose between 2 jobs at 2 different hospitals. Everything about the 2 jobs is exactly the same, but one hospital will pay you more than the other. Would it be wrong for you to accept the higher-paying job over the lower-paying job? What if both jobs pay above a certain amount, say $200,000/year. You clearly have enough to live on with either job. Which one would you accept? Now, let's say you accept the higher paying job, like any sane person would do. Does this mean you lied on your personal statement because your choice is partially motivated by money?

I know what you are likely to say next, that it's sad for us to devote a whole thread to money without talking about the care we provide to patients. A few posters certainly made this argument in the thread about PPACA. It's a BS argument really, and quite insulting to the majority of us who enter medical school for the right reasons. We wouldn't be here if we didn't already care about patients, so why reaffirm the same truth over and over again in every discussion we make? If there is no mention about patient care in this thread it's because this thread is about money, not about patient care. Just like if we were to start a thread about which city in the US is the best to live in we wouldn't need to infuse it with proclamations about how much we love our patients either.

MKA55 sums up your attitudes pretty nicely:

Originally Posted by MKA55

I am not impressed with those med students who shoot themselves in the foot, claiming to be happy making less, while vilifying anyone who tries to make more. I do not think they are noble OR good-intentioned. Rather, quite the opposite. Am I the only one who finds these people to be preachy, self-aggrandizing, overly-zealous, and tiresome to be around? Who are they to impose their standards of happiness and prosperity upon other students or physicians? If they wish to accept less compensation, that is of course their right...but it is a whole other matter to begin to actively sabotage and undermine the attempts of other physicians to prosper to the best of their ability, and to belittle and criticize their efforts to do so. At that point, the bleeding hearts have become oppressors, imposing their own arbitrary standards of value and happiness upon others, and then vilifying their victims as greedy profiteers for not being as ignorantly happy in poverty as they themselves are. Just because one bleeding heart numbskull is satisfied making only 80 grand a year, does not mean that all doctors will be, and nor does it mean that all doctors SHOULD be. We are all free to define the terms of our own happiness and satisfaction, and to pursue it as such.

I couldn't say it better myself.

Originally Posted by Nebby

My family doctor goes on golfing trips just about once a week. Unfortunately the perception is more of a reality in some instances. That's not to say this is the way things should be, nor is it to say all physicians are similar. Just pointing it out because the comment made me laugh.

Yes, the guy goes golfing once a week. Outrageous.

I am glad so many of us agree and in general more of us share the sentiments MKA55 has so eloquently expressed than those that do not.

My point is this: it is not about the money. It was never about the money for any of us because we all know there are more lucrative professions than this one. The money is not the issue here. The issue here is what the money represents, or more specifically, what having money taken away from us with no benefit to anyone represents.

I do not have a problem with people making millions and buying 10 cars and 10 houses. I do not have a problem with people making millions and donating it all to charity. I do have a problem with people with guilt complexes that think it is not okay for others to live how they want. That it is not okay for others to enjoy their EARNED wealth. That it is not okay for others to live differently than they do. I have a problem with those people. There are a few of them in this thread. To these select few I ask, who are you to say what is enough? Who are you to determine how big a house or how many cars are "enough?" They may say, "well many people in X countries do not have even one car or even a bike. But you, a rich physician, have 5 cars. You don't neeeeed that many!" In response I'd ask them how many SHOES they have. Do you really need more than one pair of shoes? There are people in Zimbabwe that have ZERO pairs of shoes. Look at you and your >1 pairs of shoes. OHH FANCY FANCY. And don't get me started on your >1 pairs of underwear. LIVING LARGE FANCY PANTS.

You see, the fact is that these people never consider it from that point of view and they will never give up their shoes, iPhones, jewelry, or in general anything they already have. They only have a problem with people who have more than them and somehow feel they have the right to tell other people what to do with other people's money. These people are HYPOCRITES and hate those that are better than them and actively try to bring them down. We know them by another word around here: gunners. These people know deep down they cannot compete 1 on 1 so they turn to other methods like shaming and lying. We have all seen this behavior in our respective schools, but this behavior doesn't go away. It just gets worse if we let it. These people become the losers of the world. Losers not because they do not have X cars or whatever (many probably come from rich families), but losers in the sense they have already given up in life and surrendered themselves to the fact that they cannot compete. The rest of us see successful people and strive to improve so one day we can be that too. Be it poor or rich if you have this mentality you will eventually succeed. But if you have that other sad mentality - the mentality these gunners have - then you have already lost. You are a loser.

As for solutions, well I think we are the solution. Seeing so many here who have the courage/spine/balls whatever you want to call it to defend our profession is inspiring. There are others who read and feel the same way that do not post and that is fine too. But when the time comes and we do have to speak out in real life I hope people will remember this thread and the many that feel what they do. I hope people will get that little extra boost of courage needed to speak out and realize they are good people, they care about patients, they entered medicine for the right reasons, they value money (like everyone else) without shame, they stand up for themselves and the profession, and most importantly that none of these things are mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Amnipotem

It's obvious "taking away your money," as you put it, is part of the plan in creating a universal healthcare system. It's not the end, it's the means to the end. It's to motivate you to take on more patients with public healthcare and to have the system manage itself. Do you expect the government to employ you and guarantee you a minimum salary? What kind of system would that be?

Besides, Obamacare will only reduce salaries for certain doctors. Specialists will still have a high enough salary. Welcome to the real world, where there is competition at every level, not just before you get into medical school. Having more competition may be healthy. After all, your profession is so important that we wouldn't want the incompetent practicing medicine.

This post is all nonsense. What are you even talking about? Why is a lawyer like you still trolling on the allo boards? Don't you have some holes to punch or stamps to lick? Get to it.

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Originally Posted by Amnipotem

It's obvious "taking away your money," as you put it, is part of the plan in creating a universal healthcare system. It's not the end, it's the means to the end. It's to motivate you to take on more patients with public healthcare and to have the system manage itself. Do you expect the government to employ you and guarantee you a minimum salary? What kind of system would that be?

Taking on more patients = decrease in quality of care
decreasing physician pay != useful decrease in healthcare costs

Originally Posted by Amnipotem

Besides, Obamacare will only reduce salaries for certain doctors. Specialists will still have a high enough salary. Welcome to the real world, where there is competition at every level, not just before you get into medical school. Having more competition may be healthy. After all, your profession is so important that we wouldn't want the incompetent practicing medicine.

What competition? There are epic shortages predicted in almost every specialty, and ACA will make the shortage worse and occur sooner. In no way, shape, or form does universal health care increase competition among physicians.

Originally Posted by Amnipotem

Reading comprehension not your strong point? Don't you have classes to study for? Oh wait, it's pass/fail, so you don't. Don't worry. I'm sure your future in family medicine won't be that terrible. After all, it only involves prescribing antibiotics for any infection (including viral), pretending to care, and referring patients to doctors who, in contrast, have to maintain some degree of minimal competency.

so much fail...

Did this thread get a name change or did this guy repost this in each med forum?

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Originally Posted by Amnipotem

Obamacare won't really affect the specialties. It seems as if family physicians will be hit the hardest and I'm not really sure what quality we're talking about with respect to those.

Increased competition among medical students is one benefit. Hopefully, this will motivate you to study harder for the Step 1 so that students aren't as content with certain fields and will work harder during residencies. I think one detriment to medical school producing competent physicians is the fact that many do not have grades and guarantee graduation. I'm sure you study hard, but if you were not guaranteed high paying jobs, you would work much harder to be a better physician.

This post and many of your others display a fundamental ignorance about medical education and the ACA. You're either trolling us or you're just a complete fool. Either way, your posts are so far from reality that I won't waste my time educating you.

Though your probably just trolling. A lawyer on a medical student forum arguing complete nonsense? Doubtful. Probably a just a pre-law on summer break trolling SDN for the hell of it.

Originally Posted by Dave89

To be fair, many medical students (e.g. myself) averse to decreasing salaries certainly plan to perform some pro bono work. But that should be our choice, not others.'

Glad to hear this. I'm just FOR supporting those who need our help. I'm not against anyone earning deserved pay.

So many talk about money so much and nothing about others in need. It's clear where their true priorities are.

Originally Posted by Amnipotem

Obamacare won't really affect the specialties. It seems as if family physicians will be hit the hardest and I'm not really sure what quality we're talking about with respect to those.

Increased competition among medical students is one benefit. Hopefully, this will motivate you to study harder for the Step 1 so that students aren't as content with certain fields and will work harder during residencies. I think one detriment to medical school producing competent physicians is the fact that many do not have grades and guarantee graduation. I'm sure you study hard, but if you were not guaranteed high paying jobs, you would work much harder to be a better physician.

Although I have agreed with some of what you wrote previously, you're now putting out information that is patently false.

The Affordable Care Act will raise pay for primary care physicians (family physicians) through many different methods. These include:

More money for primary care residencies, help for students going into primary care (NHSC scholarships), tax benefits for doctors working in underserved areas, etc.: http://www.healthcare.gov/news/facts...providers.html

Increase funding for community health centers (typically staffed by primary care physicians): http://www.healthcare.gov/news/facts...ng-access.html

Medicaid and Medicare increased reimbursement for primary care physicians (see first link)

Then you say this:

"as if family physicians will be hit the hardest and I'm not really sure what quality we're talking about with respect to those."

Now there is obviously a perception among some doctors that family physicians are low quality, but I've been pleased overall with these forums to find that isn't the general perception here, and I don't believe it is the reality either. I'm a little surprised that someone from the general public has that notion and would actually spout it off as if it were gospel.

As far as your last comments regarding the pass/fail system, well you seem to be missing a fundamental difference between medical school and other professional schools. In medical school there are only a certain number of spots to train students at the hospital. In other words, you can't just increase the number of students exponentially like you can at law schools. That means that each student is an investment for the university, and therefore they have incentives to make sure each student will make it through and graduate, which is no picnic even with a solid support system.

The pass/fail system was implemented because schools wanted to foster a spirit of cooperation amongst their students, so that they would collaborate with each other in learning. I'm sorry if you resent those sentiments, but I don't agree that adding the extra stress of trying to best all of your fellow students on top of everything else is actually the best educational model at this level.

Finally, I don't know what you mean about "content with certain fields" but I'll assume you're referring again to family medicine or primary care as if only the lazy or apathetic go into those specialties. Did you ever consider many students actually CHOOSE to go into those fields? Despite what you might think, students have varying interests, and not everyone wants to be a dermatologist or an orthopedic surgeon, just like not every law student wants to practice a certain type of law.

Originally Posted by nosleep

I am glad so many of us agree and in general more of us share the sentiments MKA55 has so eloquently expressed than those that do not.

My point is this: it is not about the money. It was never about the money for any of us because we all know there are more lucrative professions than this one. The money is not the issue here. The issue here is what the money represents, or more specifically, what having money taken away from us with no benefit to anyone represents.

I do not have a problem with people making millions and buying 10 cars and 10 houses. I do not have a problem with people making millions and donating it all to charity. I do have a problem with people with guilt complexes that think it is not okay for others to live how they want. That it is not okay for others to enjoy their EARNED wealth. That it is not okay for others to live differently than they do. I have a problem with those people. There are a few of them in this thread. To these select few I ask, who are you to say what is enough? Who are you to determine how big a house or how many cars are "enough?" They may say, "well many people in X countries do not have even one car or even a bike. But you, a rich physician, have 5 cars. You don't neeeeed that many!" In response I'd ask them how many SHOES they have. Do you really need more than one pair of shoes? There are people in Zimbabwe that have ZERO pairs of shoes. Look at you and your >1 pairs of shoes. OHH FANCY FANCY. And don't get me started on your >1 pairs of underwear. LIVING LARGE FANCY PANTS.

You see, the fact is that these people never consider it from that point of view and they will never give up their shoes, iPhones, jewelry, or in general anything they already have. They only have a problem with people who have more than them and somehow feel they have the right to tell other people what to do with other people's money. These people are HYPOCRITES and hate those that are better than them and actively try to bring them down. We know them by another word around here: gunners. These people know deep down they cannot compete 1 on 1 so they turn to other methods like shaming and lying. We have all seen this behavior in our respective schools, but this behavior doesn't go away. It just gets worse if we let it. These people become the losers of the world. Losers not because they do not have X cars or whatever (many probably come from rich families), but losers in the sense they have already given up in life and surrendered themselves to the fact that they cannot compete. The rest of us see successful people and strive to improve so one day we can be that too. Be it poor or rich if you have this mentality you will eventually succeed. But if you have that other sad mentality - the mentality these gunners have - then you have already lost. You are a loser.

As for solutions, well I think we are the solution. Seeing so many here who have the courage/spine/balls whatever you want to call it to defend our profession is inspiring. There are others who read and feel the same way that do not post and that is fine too. But when the time comes and we do have to speak out in real life I hope people will remember this thread and the many that feel what they do. I hope people will get that little extra boost of courage needed to speak out and realize they are good people, they care about patients, they entered medicine for the right reasons, they value money (like everyone else) without shame, they stand up for themselves and the profession, and most importantly that none of these things are mutually exclusive.

I do think it's strange you created the original thread (which was subsequently locked) to attack me and call me spineless without even asking me what I believe. Truth be told, my stance is much more subtle than you've contrasted it to be. I'm not against any physician being paid millions. I just said that I will adjust my living to my income, and that I feel blessed making 500k or 150-200k, either way I'll be just as grateful. The only point I made which everyone was so upset with, was that anyone can be grateful and adjust their expenses if they want to. I never once argued we should be paid less. If I have an opportunity to be altruistic with my skills and it costs me income, I'm happy to take that hit. I have no shame about being paid 500k either.

I wanted to address this separately:

Originally Posted by nosleep

To these select few I ask, who are you to say what is enough? Who are you to determine how big a house or how many cars are "enough?" They may say, "well many people in X countries do not have even one car or even a bike. But you, a rich physician, have 5 cars. You don't neeeeed that many!" In response I'd ask them how many SHOES they have. Do you really need more than one pair of shoes? There are people in Zimbabwe that have ZERO pairs of shoes. Look at you and your >1 pairs of shoes. OHH FANCY FANCY. And don't get me started on your >1 pairs of underwear. LIVING LARGE FANCY PANTS.

These are great questions to ask. If you truly care about people in poor countries, then I think it would affect your spending here. What does that look like? I don't know. But I'll say this, if you're living comfortably and your income doubles, do you spend 100% of the increase on yourself, or do you give away half of the increase? That's generous living and many people do this. Warren Buffet, Mark Zuckerberg, and Bill Gates all pledged to give away half of their wealth to charity back in 2010. I think that's great. I don't think you dictate that people have to do that or make them feel guilty if they don't.

So I'm encouraged by examples of physicians who do the same. No one is saying to live like a pauper or have no fun with the $ you earn. All I've said for myself, is if I find a place where I'm living comfortably and I have the opportunity to be generous, I hope I take advantage of it and don't convince myself that I need more stuff.

You see, the fact is that these people never consider it from that point of view and they will never give up their shoes, iPhones, jewelry, or in general anything they already have. They only have a problem with people who have more than them and somehow feel they have the right to tell other people what to do with other people's money. These people are HYPOCRITES and hate those that are better than them and actively try to bring them down. We know them by another word around here: gunners. These people know deep down they cannot compete 1 on 1 so they turn to other methods like shaming and lying. We have all seen this behavior in our respective schools, but this behavior doesn't go away. It just gets worse if we let it. These people become the losers of the world. Losers not because they do not have X cars or whatever (many probably come from rich families), but losers in the sense they have already given up in life and surrendered themselves to the fact that they cannot compete. The rest of us see successful people and strive to improve so one day we can be that too. Be it poor or rich if you have this mentality you will eventually succeed. But if you have that other sad mentality - the mentality these gunners have - then you have already lost. You are a loser.

Again, not true. Giving involves sacrifice, those that give will give up much of what they have for others who have little. You've called me spineless and said all types of derogatory things about this "group of people", basically demonizing them, yet I don't think you understand what people like me believe. The whole competition diatribe is ridiculous too, I don't try to compete, I try to do what I love and work my ass off + do my best, the rest follows. I'll say it again, I'm not against any man making money. Back to Warren Buffet, he's made more money than likely all the people who've posted on this thread. But he's also given away more money than all the people who've posted on this thread. So I'm not against $, I'm for generosity and gratitude.

Maybe I'm just crazy, or poor, but it's hard for me to seriously argue that I deserve ten times the salary of my other friends who also went to my perfectly respectable state's flagship university. And hell, in some cases those friends are just straight up unemployed through no great fault of their own.

Yeah physicians work hard; yeah the hours invested in medical training is ridiculous. The government-issued debt that compounds during a time when they know for a fact we won't be able to repay anything on it during residency is just beyond asinine and verges on insulting, in particular.

Yet I met plenty of guys in my former jobs working double, triple shifts doing grinding manual labor without benefits for minimum wage and I'm sometimes absurdly thankful my life circumstances put me here today instead of there.

There's no glory in being poor for its own sake but on the other hand I find it hard to really believe I work harder than everybody else. I was able to make increasingly difficult decisions to sacrifice short term for long term, maybe. Is that really such a value-adder? 10X?

Some people go medicine because it's a tightly protected guild-type enterprise that almost guarantees a solid income. Some people go into it for the prestige.

I didn't choose it for either but I'm getting more grateful for both as the current economic situation shows zero signs of improving.

I do stop and wonder sometimes as I walk through the physician's parking lot at what point in the next decade I will start to earnestly believe I need to be driving a car that's worth double the average salary of the American household. Maybe residency really is where all empathy for other people is completely corroded into nothingness.

Originally Posted by hrandani

Maybe I'm just crazy, or poor, but it's hard for me to seriously argue that I deserve ten times the salary of my other friends who also went to my perfectly respectable state's flagship university. And hell, in some cases those friends are just straight up unemployed through no great fault of their own.

Yeah physicians work hard; yeah the hours invested in medical training is ridiculous. The government-issued debt that compounds during a time when they know for a fact we won't be able to repay anything on it during residency is just beyond asinine and verges on insulting, in particular.

Yet I met plenty of guys in my former jobs working double, triple shifts doing grinding manual labor without benefits for minimum wage and I'm sometimes absurdly thankful my life circumstances put me here today instead of there.

There's no glory in being poor for its own sake but on the other hand I find it hard to really believe I work harder than everybody else. I was able to make increasingly difficult decisions to sacrifice short term for long term, maybe. Is that really such a value-adder? 10X?

Some people go medicine because it's a tightly protected guild-type enterprise that almost guarantees a solid income. Some people go into it for the prestige.

I didn't choose it for either but I'm getting more grateful for both as the current economic situation shows zero signs of improving.

I do stop and wonder sometimes as I walk through the physician's parking lot at what point in the next decade I will start to earnestly believe I need to be driving a car that's worth double the average salary of the American household. Maybe residency really is where all empathy for other people is completely corroded into nothingness.

Good post. I've done manual labor too and that's hard work.

I remember the neurosurgeon @ Hopkins, Dr. Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa, who was a migrant worker mentioning that his days picking fruits in the field was much harder work than being a physician. Well, whatever it is, I think we should realize that lots of people in America work very hard and don't earn as much as we do... SO, be grateful (this isn't an argument to be paid less). I feel like most here feel they are entitled to everything and any cut in income = being robbed.

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Originally Posted by hrandani

Maybe I'm just crazy, or poor, but it's hard for me to seriously argue that I deserve ten times the salary of my other friends who also went to my perfectly respectable state's flagship university. And hell, in some cases those friends are just straight up unemployed through no great fault of their own.

Yeah physicians work hard; yeah the hours invested in medical training is ridiculous. The government-issued debt that compounds during a time when they know for a fact we won't be able to repay anything on it during residency is just beyond asinine and verges on insulting, in particular.

Yet I met plenty of guys in my former jobs working double, triple shifts doing grinding manual labor without benefits for minimum wage and I'm sometimes absurdly thankful my life circumstances put me here today instead of there.

There's no glory in being poor for its own sake but on the other hand I find it hard to really believe I work harder than everybody else. I was able to make increasingly difficult decisions to sacrifice short term for long term, maybe. Is that really such a value-adder? 10X?

Some people go medicine because it's a tightly protected guild-type enterprise that almost guarantees a solid income. Some people go into it for the prestige.

I didn't choose it for either but I'm getting more grateful for both as the current economic situation shows zero signs of improving.

I do stop and wonder sometimes as I walk through the physician's parking lot at what point in the next decade I will start to earnestly believe I need to be driving a car that's worth double the average salary of the American household. Maybe residency really is where all empathy for other people is completely corroded into nothingness.

It's unfortunate that your friends from University are not doing well, but you really should not compare yourself to them on the basis of having attended a common college.

As a pre-med, you (presumably) worked hard, burned the midnight oil, and studied important subjects (life sciences, natural sciences, math, etc), but in which fields did your struggling friends major? Sociology? Tibetan Studies? Psychology? It's a tragedy that it's assumed in this age that everyone ought to go to college.

Yeah - what you're doing may well be worth 10x the worth of your school buds' professional fields.

I'm not sure the "let people in, then weed them out" system of law is that good because the ABA seems to be entirely apathetic to the plight of recent law grads and lets students accrue massive student loans without the ability to pay them off. The ABA should be more involved and should close a good number of law schools and be more proactive in protecting the industry like the AMA. However, I'm also not sure that the medical school system of letting people drop out for years, retake Step 1 multiple times, retake pass/fail classes, etc. is that good either. Seems to breed complacency. The best is probably a middle ground.

I don't really see how that's beneficial in most practice areas. Given, I've never studied a field where teamwork has been important or valued. Most of the time it's just a waste of time.

With all those 70 hour weeks you're putting in I'm pretty surprised you have the time to monitor SDN so intently that you post at 8:30 and 10:30 in the morning. You're a trollin unemployed lawyer, a trollin law student or a stupid lawyer (don't worry though there's plenty of those to keep you company). My bet is you're probably unemployed or a law student considering you were posting friday about 10 minutes apart. You also obviously have no idea what you're talking about. For example, people usually "take off multiple years" to do research or get another degree, not just to hang around playing with themselves for a couple years for no reason.

My dad is an actual employed lawyer and the amount of time he would have to post on SDN each day is about...none.

Originally Posted by Nebby

I had to imagine your avatar making these calculations.

I should make more mathematical posts haha

Originally Posted by calvnandhobbs68

With all those 70 hour weeks you're putting in I'm pretty surprised you have the time to monitor SDN so intently that you post at 8:30 and 10:30 in the morning. You're a trollin unemployed lawyer, a trollin law student or a stupid lawyer (don't worry though there's plenty of those to keep you company). My bet is you're probably unemployed or a law student considering you were posting friday about 10 minutes apart.

My dad's an actual employed lawyer and the amount of time he would have to post on SDN each day is about...none.

Burn: 3rd degree.

.

Originally Posted by Amnipotem

So lawyers do work more than doctors! Not a litigator. Heard of transactional work? Ebbs and flows. Some weeks you bill 0. Others you bill 80, but work 100 when the deal is hot. Also, I don't sleep much. Average 3-4 hours a day.

Not good, man. You may have to see a physician about that.

I'm confused, how did we get a lawyer posting in the medical student forum?

lol.

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

Glad to hear this. I'm just FOR supporting those who need our help. I'm not against anyone earning deserved pay.

So many talk about money so much and nothing about others in need. It's clear where their true priorities are.

Oh spare us Mother Theresa. If you were so such a bleeding heart you would have done nursing or social work or been a teacher since that is much more direct person to person attention and meeting of immediate basic needs. Your sanctinmonius and judgemental blathering is really old.

Originally Posted by Kunu

Oh spare us Mother Theresa. If you were so such a bleeding heart you would have done nursing or social work or been a teacher since that is much more direct person to person attention and meeting of immediate basic needs. Your sanctinmonius and judgemental blathering is really old.

Can you show me one instance where I've judged someone?

Honestly, I don't understand why people try to vilify those they disagree with. So far I've been called spineless, a loser, a hypocrite, holier than though, judgmental, and sanctimonious. I don't think I've once compared my goals to someone else's or judged anyone's goals or desires, yet many like you will gladly judge and berate me.

Not quite sure why we can't have different views without insulting each other. It's unfortunate.

Good luck Kunu, I hope you achieve your goals and I wish you well.

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

I do think it's strange you created the original thread (which was subsequently locked) to attack me and call me spineless without even asking me what I believe. Truth be told, my stance is much more subtle than you've contrasted it to be. I'm not against any physician being paid millions. I just said that I will adjust my living to my income, and that I feel blessed making 500k or 150-200k, either way I'll be just as grateful. The only point I made which everyone was so upset with, was that anyone can be grateful and adjust their expenses if they want to. I never once argued we should be paid less. If I have an opportunity to be altruistic with my skills and it costs me income, I'm happy to take that hit. I have no shame about being paid 500k either.

hahaha this is great. Spineless people doing what spineless people do best: BACK DOWN. Love it. You want to play this game? Here is what you really believe before you toned down your self hating mantra in response to this thread: link for text below

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

Think about this, 53% of the world lives on a few dollars a day. The average physician earns nearly 300 times more money than the average person in the world. The average physician is in the top ~3% of earners in the richest country the world has ever known. Yet, most think they are underpaid and struggling. It's a joke.

A very different tone no? Hardly the casual indifference you are trying to pass it off as. And:

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

This just circles back to our discussion the other day. Medicine is a profession filled with mostly rich kids from well off families. They just want to maintain their lifestyle. I don't think it's everyone obviously, but I think it's possibly >50%.

It's too bad because we can really do good in this profession if we focus on taking care of those who need our help rather than on $.

So before you did the cowardly thing and backed down it wasn't good enough just for YOU to have your income decreased (again for no reason at all). You want everyone to follow suit.

When did anyone say focusing on our money and taking care of those who need our help were mutually exclusive things? You are presenting a false choice to people. We can have BOTH. Patients are not the enemy obviously. Other doctors are also not the enemy. Yet you are trying to paint it like this. Why? To make yourself seem more compassionate than you really are of course and to make us look like money grubbers. Sure in the short term you get praise for being a selfless doctor against a backdrop of greedy white coats and maybe you get off on that, but I live in reality and in the long term your little act hurts us. Sad.

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

Honestly, I don't understand why people try to vilify those they disagree with. So far I've been called spineless, a loser, a hypocrite, holier than though, judgmental, and sanctimonious. I don't think I've once compared my goals to someone else's or judged anyone's goals or desires, yet many like you will gladly judge and berate me.

Instead of playing the victim card and covering your ears, take a serious look at why people say those things. For example, you are a hypocrite because you say you don't judge anyone else but I see a lot of judgement in the posts I quoted above. Kunu is spot on and simply calling it like he sees it. Even your reply to him was condescending like somehow you're the bigger man by wishing him well after you've thoroughly portrayed yourself as the victim.

Originally Posted by JackShephard MD

Glad to hear this. I'm just FOR supporting those who need our help. I'm not against anyone earning deserved pay.

So many talk about money so much and nothing about others in need. It's clear where their true priorities are.

More judgment.

Also your bolded statement... Is there anyone out there not for supporting those that need our help? Anyone? Anyone? You are so brave to take this stance.

This will be my last contribution, as it's pretty clear we have different opinions and I'm in no way attempting to persuade you.

Originally Posted by nosleep

hahaha this is great. Spineless people doing what spineless people do best: BACK DOWN. Love it. You want to play this game? Here is what you really believe before you toned down your self hating mantra in response to this thread: link for text below

I stand by my previous statement. It's centered around what I've been saying all along, we can be grateful to be human beings in such a great situation. We are paid very well, regardless of what the government does. I made the comparison to the average person in the world to give perspective, that we're doing pretty well, which means we can be grateful instead of feeling entitled. I did take offense to the idea that taking a 10-15% reimbursement cut is equivalent to being a martyr. There are doctors who have been killed trying to make a difference in the world. Here's an example:

Andrias "Kace" Karel Keiluhu
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org...se.cfm?id=5709

This man was shot and killed last year providing emergency medical assistance to displaced persons and residents in Somalia.

It's a joke that some individuals in this thread are calling themselves martyrs because of a cut in reimbursements. I probably did slightly overreact in that situation because I've been reading about doctors who've really contributed and in some cases been martyrs. I think it's sad to throw that term around in a talk about Obamacare/paychecks.

A very different tone no? Hardly the casual indifference you are trying to pass it off as. And:

Like I said, it was a different tone. Because it actually makes me sick to my stomach when people call themselves martyrs on here after 10-15% pay cuts when there are actual martyrs out there. Now, I don't think that everyone should do that or they are better than anyone, or whatever. I just think that it's bad taste to toss that term around in this conversation.

So before you did the cowardly thing and backed down it wasn't good enough just for YOU to have your income decreased (again for no reason at all). You want everyone to follow suit.

My quote was that we can do a lot of good in this profession if we focus on those who need our help rather than $. Look at all the doom and gloom talk on this thread, another perspective from Atul Gawande the other day: SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES focused on the patients that the law was helping. I stand by my statement, that we can do a lot of good if we focus on how to serve our patient population. I'm not against anyone making $, I just don't think it should be priority #1 (IMO).

When did anyone say focusing on our money and taking care of those who need our help were mutually exclusive things? You are presenting a false choice to people. We can have BOTH. Patients are not the enemy obviously. Other doctors are also not the enemy. Yet you are trying to paint it like this. Why? To make yourself seem more compassionate than you really are of course and to make us look like money grubbers. Sure in the short term you get praise for being a selfless doctor against a backdrop of greedy white coats and maybe you get off on that, but I live in reality and in the long term your little act hurts us. Sad.

We can have both, but in a world with limited resources, you will eventually have to cut something. Now obviously there's tons of waste in healhcare spending, so I don't think targeting physician incomes is a priority or a necessity.

You constantly demonize me. Where did I call anyone greedy? I have not called any doctor an enemy. I don't think I'm more compassionate than anyone... I don't get off on any of this. I only want peace and I have my own career goals that I want to pursue. It has nothing to do with vilifying you or your goals. It's very odd that you keep saying things like this, no where have I said anything along the lines of what you've accused me of.

Instead of playing the victim card and covering your ears, take a serious look at why people say those things. For example, you are a hypocrite because you say you don't judge anyone else but I see a lot of judgement in the posts I quoted above. Kunu is spot on and simply calling it like he sees it. Even your reply to him was condescending like somehow you're the bigger man by wishing him well after you've thoroughly portrayed yourself as the victim.

I honestly don't see myself as a victim, I just pointed out that I've been constantly criticized and judged yet I offer no judgement of you or your goals. It's just stating what has happened.

More judgment.

Also your bolded statement... Is there anyone out there not for supporting those that need our help? Anyone? Anyone? You are so brave to take this stance.

This is where reality comes into play. You will have to make choices and sacrifices sometimes because we live in a world with limited resources. Everyone can say they support XYZ cause or helping people but actions tell the story. Andrias "Kace" Karel Keiluhu, who I mentioned above, his actions proved he cared about the people in Somalia. If I were to say, "Oh yeah, I care about those people in Somalia. Who isn't in support of hoping they find homes and get healthcare?" My actions would not line up with someone who has gone over there and served. So yes, everyone is "pro-helping others" but your actions show what you are really for. Likewise, there will be times you need to chose between earning more money and supporting those who are in need. It's not every instance, but there will be situations that will force you to make a choice between the two. And that's your choice to make. I don't judge what you choose and I don't think what I chose is better or worse, it's all of our choices. But I guarantee you that there will be times in life where you have to make the choice.

^ Lol, we got you

Originally Posted by Mizoodles

^ Lol, we got you

Lol, sorry.

The only reason I bolded things and repeated myself so many times is because the same people keep accusing me of things I don't believe or say. So I figured repeating things 4 times would stop the accusations. But whatever, I honestly hope everyone in this thread makes all the $ they want and need. That's sincere, I'm not against you nosleep or anyone else. Good luck and I do wish you the best.

Originally Posted by gettheleadout

850,000 licensed physicians in the US @ ~$175,000/year each on average comes to just under $150 billion.

It's kind of a difficult number to calculate precisely becuase physician income is so variable (even with physician practices right across the hall from one another).

It's a lot. Physicians should still feel pretty valued (or at least I do).

However, I do agree that the whole system has a ton of waste (from training to delivery), and physicians could do a huge favor for themselves by taking the lead and eliminating some of it (rather than having the government legislate it). There just really isn't the incentive to do so (although that will change).

Originally Posted by Amnipotem

So lawyers do work more than doctors! Not a litigator. Heard of transactional work? Ebbs and flows. Some weeks you bill 0. Others you bill 80, but work 100 when the deal is hot. Also, I don't sleep much. Average 3-4 hours a day.

I know people who have retaken the Step 1 multiple times or taken time off to rethink medicine. That's a poison pill in any other profession.

That sleep schedule isn't healthy man better go see your PCP about that.

I know people who graduated from law school who wouldn't get be able to get into Caribbean med schools much less any US med schools. I wouldn't bash on the medical education system as a lawyer considering half of US applicants to med schools don't get into ANY schools while 3rd tier law schools basically take anyone with a pulse and a LSAT score. But overall so what? I don't even really get why you brought it up in the first place.

And I'm not sure where you got lawyers work more than doctors from that considering I'm a medical student. I know you might not be too good at that reading stuff but it says so right under my picture. Not to mention it's summer which means I'm just doing research most of the day. So...what?

Originally Posted by Amnipotem

So lawyers do work more than doctors! Not a litigator. Heard of transactional work? Ebbs and flows. Some weeks you bill 0. Others you bill 80, but work 100 when the deal is hot. Also, I don't sleep much. Average 3-4 hours a day.

I know people who have retaken the Step 1 multiple times or taken time off to rethink medicine. That's a poison pill in any other profession.

did you mean "some" where you put "so"? because, frankly your statement is false as written.

.

Really wish I had a GIF of someone doing the jerk off sign... scared to Google for one tho

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

Really wish I had a GIF of someone doing the jerk off sign... scared to Google for one tho

I gotcha

Thanks man. On the schools network right now so that could have gone bad in a hurry. Lol

While obviously this has turned into a heated discussion, let's please try to avoid personal attacks.

Originally Posted by Gut Shot

I'm not sure there is an opposing stance, merely a different way of looking at things. Prior to the inception of Medicare, physicians did not earn a great deal of money. The high stature of the profession in society was built through sacrifice and the fundamental goodness of the mission to heal. The Benjamins came later.

The OP and MKA55 make impassioned arguments, but the only counter I can offer is that they are shortsighted ones. Every time we, as a profession, stand up and demand money it becomes a PR disaster. I was walking through the physician parking lot yesterday and taking note of the cars. BMW 5 series. BMW 7 series. Porsche Carrera. Lexus. Infiniti. Mercedes. Mercedes. It's very tough to see the long term benefit of bleating about money when any casual observer can call us greedy.

In that vein I don't see the rare family doc who lives in a trailer in rural Mississippi and barters for chickens as very problematic. He's making the rest of us look good.


Edit: I would be remiss if I did not mention that right after the second Mercedes was a beat up Isuzu Trooper II. Remember those? I'm guessing it belongs to one of the pediatricians.

The average American is, at best, woefully ignorant of the vast majority of the issues facing modern medicine. To be blunt, I really don't give a rat's hindquarters about what the ignorant masses want or think with regards to medicine or physicians because at the end of the day they'll always need us and seek out our skills when the time comes. They can bitch and moan about money and greed all they want so long as they realize that doctors provide an essential service, one that takes years of hardwork and dedication that most have absolutely no concept of. The fact of the matter is that good doctors have earned the right to be well compensated for what they do and what they've gone through to get where they are.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

Thanks man. On the schools network right now so that could have gone bad in a hurry. Lol

or much better than expected