How much of an effect does being URM do for an application?

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Originally Posted by Yonko Shanks

SDN has opened my eyes. I thought we were progressing, but I see people are still the same. Sad to see some of these people will be future doctors.

I feel the same way. When I first moved to the US, I seriously thought that given the history of the country, and the great range of ethnic diversity and mixing, people of all races would be a little more tolerant towards each other.

I now realize how naive I was to think this.

Peace people

Originally Posted by TheMightySmiter

I'm 18, I swear!! I'd like you to meet me at my apartment with some gifts. Ignore the white van with the antennae parked outside.

You realize 18 is legal...

Originally Posted by sliceofbread136

You realize 18 is legal...

Yeah she had it a little backwards. In the "to catch a predator" show the girls claim to be under age but are actually in their late teens/early twenties.

Good show though. Love the look on the guys faces when Hansen comes out.

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260

Yeah she had it a little backwards. In the "to catch a predator" show the girls claim to be under age but are actually in their late teens/early twenties.

Good show though. Love the look on the guys faces when Hansen comes out.

Originally Posted by NickNaylor

Originally Posted by LizzyM

And one's fellow trainees... we can learn so much from one another (and it is not a cliche to say that teachers learn from students) which is why medical schools, and many other educational settings, seek a diverse student body and a diverse faculty.

Silly academics still trying to push the "diversity enhances education" upon students

Originally Posted by Poetic Silence

White people don't have cultural blocks or linguistic barriers preventing them from getting adequate and compassionate medical care.

As the son of a Mexican immigrant, I've seen first hand how difficult it is to get the resources you need when you don't understand most of what the doctors are saying.

It's for that reason that I want to emphasize my passion for treating the culturally Deaf in our country. Being a Deaf American has affected me in many of the same ways being Spanish has affected my parent.

You are so enlightened. If I was in change of admissions, I would definitely let you in with sub-par scores.

Originally Posted by Yonko Shanks

Do you know what most Urms go through just to get college? Do you know how hard and tough it is for Most Urms. Yes there are some who actually are aholes who take advntage of the urm status, but that doesn't mean all of us are rich..

ex: my high school had a graduating class of 1200 kids. Classes were with about 40-50 kids with limited textbooks, limited resources. Instead of books, we had metal detectors..

Your circumstances are most likely different than mines..

Tragic. As if these things only happen to people of a certain skin color. Anything based on skin color and heritage is absurd. It needs to be parent-income based.

Originally Posted by jhamaican

Tragic. As if these things only happen to people of a certain skin color. Anything based on skin color and heritage is absurd. It needs to be parent-income based.

You do realize that if they did that the people who would benefit the most are still URM's right?

Edit : I don't know about you guys but I think this topic has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten to death one too many times. Can we just let it go? Life is unfair and we have to deal with the consequences of not just our actions but the actions of others who lived before us.

Personally i think race and gender should play no role in deciding who gets selected for jobs, med school, or anything of such sort. It should solely be based on personality, intellect, and other non-physical aspects of people. It is not fair to those who work hard and archive greater things. But then again I guess life's not fair. Meh

Originally Posted by Freesia88

You do realize that if they did that the people who would benefit the most are still URM's right?

Edit : I don't know about you guys but I think this topic has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten to death one too many times. Can we just let it go? Life is unfair and we have to deal with the consequences of not just our actions but the actions of others who lived before us.

Please, you haven't even been here that long.

Originally Posted by jhamaican

Tragic. As if these things only happen to people of a certain skin color. Anything based on skin color and heritage is absurd. It needs to be parent-income based.

Most of the things that happen to urms are also disadvantaged? anyways, keep hating. ill be laughing my way to med school when i claim urm+disadvantaged.

haters gonna hate

Originally Posted by chrismenz4

Personally i think race and gender should play no role in deciding who gets selected for jobs, med school, or anything of such sort. It should solely be based on personality, intellect, and other non-physical aspects of people. It is not fair to those who work hard and archive greater things. But then again I guess life's not fair. Meh

So we can't weed out the fatties???

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

Originally Posted by sibitrum

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

Why are you so dishonest?? You and I have had this argument before on another URM thread.

Dr. King believed in affirmative action. Here's another quote from him:

"If a city has a 30% Negro population, then it is logical to assume that Negroes should have at least 30% of the jobs in any particular company, and jobs in all categories rather than only in menial areas."

Be against URM status all you want but don't be dishonest by using this man to bolster your argument. Stop trying to sanitize Dr. King and mold him to be some kind of post-racial Teletubby.

Originally Posted by chrismenz4

Personally i think race and gender should play no role in deciding who gets selected for jobs, med school, or anything of such sort. It should solely be based on personality, intellect, and other non-physical aspects of people. It is not fair to those who work hard and archive greater things. But then again I guess life's not fair. Meh

Tell that to the people who did not hire me (a young, heterosexual, married, white woman) to recruit men of color who have sex with men to participate in a long term research study. What made them think that I couldn't go into gay bars and find black men on the down low and sell them on participating?

Originally Posted by wolfie77

Why are you so dishonest?? You and I have had this argument before on another URM thread.

Dr. King believed in affirmative action. Here's another quote from him:

"If a city has a 30% Negro population, then it is logical to assume that Negroes should have at least 30% of the jobs in any particular company, and jobs in all categories rather than only in menial areas."

Be against URM status all you want but don't be dishonest by using this man to bolster your argument. Stop trying to sanitize Dr. King and mold him to be some kind of post-racial Teletubby.

Ideas are greater than the people who exclaim them.

Originally Posted by sibitrum

Ideas are greater than the people who exclaim them.

So you ignore the issues with a cliche rather than actually defend your words or say you were wrong?


Whatever man. Just please don't go around manipulating the words of a man who means so much to a whole people.

Originally Posted by kpcrew

Please, you haven't even been here that long.

My apologies, I didn't realize there was a time frame.

Originally Posted by wolfie77

Why are you so dishonest?? You and I have had this argument before on another URM thread.

Dr. King believed in affirmative action. Here's another quote from him:

"If a city has a 30% Negro population, then it is logical to assume that Negroes should have at least 30% of the jobs in any particular company, and jobs in all categories rather than only in menial areas."

Be against URM status all you want but don't be dishonest by using this man to bolster your argument. Stop trying to sanitize Dr. King and mold him to be some kind of post-racial Teletubby.

Love this.

Reading this thread has been a real eye opener for me. What some people here don't seem to understand is that policies such as affirmative action were put in place to give URMs a chance at opportunities that were originally designated to be the 'good ol' boys club.' we have to realize that it was not even 50 years ago that the civil rights act was passed. Hundreds of years of oppression aren't going to be wiped clean in a span of a few short years.

Just my .02...

Oh my, I see this is still going, even after i thought everything that needed to be said was said.

Every human being has a brain capable for doing anything anyone else can do regardless or race. In todays world education doesn't care for you color. Your gpa, and MCAT scores are not racist. Instead of generalizing an entire system, I say look at the individual and his merits.(In regards to AA)

Every time there is a thread like this, the people staunchly opposed to affirmative action prove the need for its existence as well as the reasons why patients want to be treated by doctors of their same cultural background.

The last big thread turned into a debate about intelligence differences between races. Now why would a URM want to see a doctor who firmly believes they are genetically programmed to be less intelligent?

Originally Posted by Coldsoldier

Oh my, I see this is still going, even after i thought everything that needed to be said was said.

Every human being has a brain capable for doing anything anyone else can do regardless or race. In todays world education doesn't care for you color. Your gpa, and MCAT scores are not racist. Instead of generalizing an entire system, I say look at the individual and his merits.(In regards to AA)

Not everyone can go to prep schools and have tutors etc..

Originally Posted by Yonko Shanks

Not everyone can go to prep schools and have tutors etc..

Yea precisely. Not everyone in all races are so privileged, so then what logical basis is there to make such assumptions based on race rather than on socio-economic background?

Emotions should not supersede rightful logic. The current argument for it has many holes which is why this argument will continue to come up time after time. (Regarding AA)

Originally Posted by MuAgonist

Every time there is a thread like this, the people staunchly opposed to affirmative action prove the need for its existence as well as the reasons why patients want to be treated by doctors of their same cultural background.

The last big thread turned into a debate about intelligence differences between races. Now why would a URM want to see a doctor who firmly believes they are genetically programmed to be less intelligent?

If something isn't at its optimal it should be criticized with credible arguments as seen fit. Dialogue and debate, Its how we better things (well for the most part).

Originally Posted by Coldsoldier

Yea precisely. Not everyone in all races are so privileged, so then what logical basis is there to make such assumptions based on race rather than on socio-economic background?

Emotions should not supersede rightful logic. The current argument for it has many holes which is why this argument will continue to come up time after time. (Regarding AA)

If you think adcoms logic is faulty, when you get an interview and your interviewer ask you if you have any question, ask the adcmon why do they continue accepting non-qualified URMs into med school. If his/her answer doesn't match your viewpoint, go right ahead and speak up

Originally Posted by MuAgonist

Every time there is a thread like this, the people staunchly opposed to affirmative action prove the need for its existence as well as the reasons why patients want to be treated by doctors of their same cultural background.

The last big thread turned into a debate about intelligence differences between races. Now why would a URM want to see a doctor who firmly believes they are genetically programmed to be less intelligent?

Exactly! The people on here bashing the URM's are the very reason URM's are so sought after.

People from these minority populations deserve equal access to compassionate and culturally competent doctors. Those bashing URM have proved that they are incapable of filling that role.

Originally Posted by Coldsoldier

Oh my, I see this is still going, even after i thought everything that needed to be said was said.

Every human being has a brain capable for doing anything anyone else can do regardless or race. In todays world education doesn't care for you color. Your gpa, and MCAT scores are not racist. Instead of generalizing an entire system, I say look at the individual and his merits.(In regards to AA)

Seeing as schools receive thousands of applications, here's hoping you won't mind that the med school application process will take a couple of years so the Adcoms can scrutinize every single application that comes in and can see just how special a snowflake everyone is and how much they deserve to be in med school.

There are screening procedures in place I think with cut off points and if they were kept rigid and based solely on academic performance then for the most part the wealthier people who can afford better education will be the majority accepted to med school. Somehow I think most people will take issue with that as well.

Originally Posted by lobo12

If you think adcoms logic is faulty, when you get an interview and your interviewer ask you if you have any question, ask the adcmon why do they continue accepting non-qualified URMs into med school. If his/her answer doesn't match your viewpoint, go right ahead and speak up

Haha well this isn't an argument but I will nonetheless entertain it.
Well first, I never said they were not qualified. You probably read what I was speaking in regards to AA and even there I never speak of those who use it as not-qualified. This is why I put the (regarding AA part). AA and URM have different goals.

Originally Posted by Freesia88

Seeing as schools receive thousands of applications, here's hoping you won't mind that the med school application process will take a couple of years so the Adcoms can scrutinize every single application that comes in and can see just how special a snowflake everyone is and how much they deserve to be in med school.

There are screening procedures in place I think with cut off points and if they were kept rigid and based solely on academic performance then for the most part the wealthier people who can afford better education will be the majority accepted to med school. Somehow I think most people will take issue with that as well.

No, you're making an assumption that richer= better applicant and that the screening procedures in place will only benefit the rich. I am not an adcom, neither are you so to make a generalization such as this (coupled with the fact that each medical school has a different screening process) doesn't really hold. I'd hope adcoms would take a middle class student who spent his days helping those he could at a homeless shelter over a wealthy man who just has a few volunteer hours but Idk seeing as I am not one and I refuse to generalize.

I'm not suggesting in anyway to keep the process "rigid". That would be a horrible idea. What I am suggesting is that the URM status does good to those to those poor URM races, but that it devastatingly bad in thinking about those poorer ORM students who worked just as or even harder, lived in sometimes worse condition than URMs but still got turned away because of their skin color.

Some people seem to think thats fine and dandy. I don't.

Originally Posted by Coldsoldier

Haha well this isn't an argument but I will nonetheless entertain it.
Well first, I never said they were not qualified. You probably read what I was speaking in regards to AA and even there I never speak of those who use it as not-qualified. This is why I put the (regarding AA part). AA and URM have different goals.

Exactly, you didn't say but you implied it when your comment of MCAT and GPA. Anyways, the AA doesn't hold for med schools application because it is something that has not been discussed publicly. The URM, in the other hand, is something publicly acknowledged. About your comment on GPA and MCAT, numbers aren't everything that is taken into consideration when adcoms admit people, look at LizzyM said below.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

Ever hear the expression P = MD? If you pass the licensing exam, you are a licenced physician. Are physicians with the highest scores the best physicians? By what measure? Are there skills that are not measured by the Step 1 exam?

The proportion of medical students who pass the boards is the same among those with MCAT of 26, 27, 28 and so forth up through the 30s. Likewise, the proportion who finish in 4 years or who finish in 5 years (in both cases, the proportion is above 95%) is flat for applicants with MCATs above 26 (below 26 there is a linear relationship between score and proportion passing/graduating.)


Is the brilliant white physician with the sterling credentials going to go to Backwater, Mississippi for the rest of his life to treat grannies with hypertension and congestive heart failure?

Originally Posted by Coldsoldier

Yea precisely. Not everyone in all races are so privileged, so then what logical basis is there to make such assumptions based on race rather than on socio-economic background?

Emotions should not supersede rightful logic. The current argument for it has many holes which is why this argument will continue to come up time after time. (Regarding AA)


If something isn't at its optimal it should be criticized with credible arguments as seen fit. Dialogue and debate, Its how we better things (well for the most part).

Logic for using ethnicity as opposed to socioeconomic statues:

1: URM's are selected due to their lack of representation in medicine in contrast to their overall population. That is why only African Americans, Native Americans, mainland Puerto Rican Americans and Mexican Americans are the "under represented minorities" in the medical world. Their populations are large and constantly growing, yet very few of them become doctors.

2: The same URM's are also the most underserved populations in our country. Because they tend to stay in their ethnic communities coupled with the fact that few in their communities become doctors equates into vastly underserved communities.

3: URM's are much more likely to return to their communities once they become physicians. The reasoning for this varies, but generally it is because they have a cultural attachment to their community and desire to serve as a leader among their own.

4: Even if we replaced ethnicity with socioeconomics, the same URM's would still be the ones getting the slight advantage anyway.

Lizzy, do you have a paper or source which confirms your line at 26? I had seen something that correlated Step1 and Step2 score and MCAT score but I do not recall them commenting on pass rate.

Originally Posted by Poetic Silence

Logic for using ethnicity as opposed to socioeconomic statues:

1: URM's are selected due to their lack of representation in medicine in contrast to their overall population. That is why only African Americans, Native Americans, mainland Puerto Rican Americans and Mexican Americans are the "under represented minorities" in the medical world. Their populations are large and constantly growing, yet very few of them become doctors.

2: The same URM's are also the most underserved populations in our country. Because they tend to stay in their ethnic communities coupled with the fact that few in their communities become doctors equates into vastly underserved communities.

3: URM's are much more likely to return to their communities once they become physicians. The reasoning for this varies, but generally it is because they have a cultural attachment to their community and desire to serve as a leader among their own.

4: Even if we replaced ethnicity with socioeconomics, the same URM's would still be the ones getting the slight advantage anyway.

Originally Posted by lobo12

Exactly, you didn't say but you implied it when your comment of MCAT and GPA. Anyways, the AA doesn't hold for med schools application because it is something that has not been discussed publicly. The URM, in the other hand, is something publicly acknowledged. About your comment on GPA and MCAT, numbers aren't everything that is taken into consideration when adcoms admit people, look at LizzyM said below.

Originally Posted by Poetic Silence

Exactly! The people on here bashing the URM's are the very reason URM's are so sought after.

People from these minority populations deserve equal access to compassionate and culturally competent doctors. Those bashing URM have proved that they are incapable of filling that role.

Let him be. Johnny has never been past the gates of his mansion.

Originally Posted by Poetic Silence

Logic for using ethnicity as opposed to socioeconomic statues:

1: URM's are selected due to their lack of representation in medicine in contrast to their overall population. That is why only African Americans, Native Americans, mainland Puerto Rican Americans and Mexican Americans are the "under represented minorities" in the medical world. Their populations are large and constantly growing, yet very few of them become doctors.

2: The same URM's are also the most underserved populations in our country. Because they tend to stay in their ethnic communities coupled with the fact that few in their communities become doctors equates into vastly underserved communities.

3: URM's are much more likely to return to their communities once they become physicians. The reasoning for this varies, but generally it is because they have a cultural attachment to their community and desire to serve as a leader among their own.

4: Even if we replaced ethnicity with socioeconomics, the same URM's would still be the ones getting the slight advantage anyway.

You missed the (Regarding to AA) part. I understand why it is used in URM.

All thats needed to look at is your number 4.
URMs would STILL have the rightful advantage but it would include EVERYONE. With that all 1,2,3 would still fall into place.

Originally Posted by Yonko Shanks

Let him be. Johnny has never been past the gates of his mansion.

Haha I would again much rather prefer an argument with substance instead of your attempt at an insult/generalization.

Originally Posted by lobo12

Exactly, you didn't say but you implied it when your comment of MCAT and GPA. Anyways, the AA doesn't hold for med schools application because it is something that has not been discussed publicly. The URM, in the other hand, is something publicly acknowledged. About your comment on GPA and MCAT, numbers aren't everything that is taken into consideration when adcoms admit people, look at LizzyM said below.

What I "implied" depends on the person reading it. Yea I'm well aware that numbers aren't everything, but the act of generalizing people because of their skin color is not exactly what I see as positive. I honestly agree with most of what you said so I'm not sure the argument here.

Originally Posted by Poetic Silence

Exactly! The people on here bashing the URM's are the very reason URM's are so sought after.

People from these minority populations deserve equal access to compassionate and culturally competent doctors. Those bashing URM have proved that they are incapable of filling that role.

So those born poor White, Asian, or Arab should be forced to unfairly compete with others who have more?

Maybe its just me, but I have this crazy idea where everyone regardless of skin color should have a fair chance of becoming a doctor instead of being generalized and unfairly put into categories with others.

Originally Posted by Yonko Shanks

Not everyone can go to prep schools and have tutors etc..

I know what you mean. Whites don't have very good access to tutoring services when compared to other racial groups. I bet you didn't know that, but that's ok because you just know intuitively that everything is aligned to be against minorities.

% Taking Test-Prep Course /// Post-Course Gain in Points on SAT
East Asian American 30% 68.8
Other Asian 15% 23.8
White 10% 12.3
Black 16% 14.9
Hispanic 11% 24.6

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2...st-sat-courses

Originally Posted by sibitrum

I know what you mean. Whites don't have very good access to tutoring services when compared to other racial groups. I bet you didn't know that, but that's ok because you just know intuitively that everything is aligned to be against minorities.

% Taking Test-Prep Course /// Post-Course Gain in Points on SAT
East Asian American 30% 68.8
Other Asian 15% 23.8
White 10% 12.3
Black 16% 14.9
Hispanic 11% 24.6

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2...st-sat-courses

Ohh how interesting. I did not know this.

Originally Posted by sibitrum

I know what you mean. Whites don't have very good access to tutoring services when compared to other racial groups. I bet you didn't know that, but that's ok because you just know intuitively that everything is aligned to be against minorities.

% Taking Test-Prep Course /// Post-Course Gain in Points on SAT
East Asian American 30% 68.8
Other Asian 15% 23.8
White 10% 12.3
Black 16% 14.9
Hispanic 11% 24.6

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2...st-sat-courses

how many whites are taking the sat vs the amount of hispanics and blacks taking the sat.

10% of whites out of how many?

Originally Posted by Coldsoldier

What I "implied" depends on the person reading it. Yea I'm well aware that numbers aren't everything, but the act of generalizing people because of their skin color is not exactly what I see as positive. I honestly agree with most of what you said so I'm not sure the argument here.




So those born poor White, Asian, or Arab should be forced to unfairly compete with others who have more?

Maybe its just me, but I have this crazy idea where everyone regardless of skin color should have a fair chance of becoming a doctor instead of being generalized and unfairly put into categories with others.

you argument is that socioeconomic is a bigger factor rather than race. Ok I respect that, but don't statistics show that urms are more likely to be from a bad socioeconomic background? Also, applying disadvantaged is different than urm status. The Orms who apply disadvantaged also get an advantage.

Originally Posted by Yonko Shanks

you argument is that socioeconomic is a bigger factor rather than race. Ok I respect that, but don't statistics show that urms are more likely to be from a bad socioeconomic background? Also, applying disadvantaged is different than urm status. The Orms who apply disadvantaged also get an advantage.

Finally! Haha. Yea stats show more Urms are from bad socioeconomic backgrounds but that doesn't mean they are the only ones we should care about. I completely agree that we need more URMs from poor neighborhoods going into medicine. But see from the data the average GPA and MCAT for all ORMs is still high and doesn't take into account those who come from the same background as the URMs. When I look at the data for ORMs it doesn't look like those from poor circumstances get any advantage but I hope they do.

I just feel that the effort put into URMs should also spread to those who struggle the same way the URMs do. Just a more even plain field. Either way URMs would still have the rightful advantage.

Originally Posted by Coldsoldier

Finally! Haha. Yea stats show more Urms are from bad socioeconomic backgrounds but that doesn't mean they are the only ones we should care about. I completely agree that we need more URMs from poor neighborhoods going into medicine. But see from the data the average GPA and MCAT for all ORMs is still high and doesn't take into account those who come from the same background as the URMs. When I look at the data for ORMs it doesn't look like those from poor circumstances get any advantage but I hope they do.

I just feel that the effort put into URMs should also spread to those who struggle the same way the URMs do. Just a more even plain field. Either way URMs would still have the rightful advantage.

I shall respond to you when I am done with class! lol

Originally Posted by Yonko Shanks

I shall respond to you when I am done with class! lol

Class in the summer time? Haha how horrible! Well then I shall continue to enjoy my last summers in peace before medical school strips them away from me.

Originally Posted by Coldsoldier

No, you're making an assumption that richer= better applicant and that the screening procedures in place will only benefit the rich. I am not an adcom, neither are you so to make a generalization such as this (coupled with the fact that each medical school has a different screening process) doesn't really hold. I'd hope adcoms would take a middle class student who spent his days helping those he could at a homeless shelter over a wealthy man who just has a few volunteer hours but Idk seeing as I am not one and I refuse to generalize.

I'm not suggesting in anyway to keep the process "rigid". That would be a horrible idea. What I am suggesting is that the URM status does good to those to those poor URM races, but that it devastatingly bad in thinking about those poorer ORM students who worked just as or even harder, lived in sometimes worse condition than URMs but still got turned away because of their skin color.

Some people seem to think thats fine and dandy. I don't.

Simple Logic. Smart wealthy person who wants to get into med school, can likely go to a great UG school with great teachers, tutors, EC opportunities etc... Likely will perform better academically and will have more volunteer hours and shadowing hours, possibly a mission trip and all that good stuff because he does not have to worry about finances or other life circumstances which can be a great hindrance. Now it's not his fault that his parents are rich he is just fortunate I suppose.

Statiscally speaking minorities tend to be poorer and cannot have some of the things that these richer kids will have so the richer kids will benefit. Case in point a good percentage of med school matriculants are still those from wealtheir backgrounds and if you search you will find threads with people bitching about that as well.

About the ORMs. Remember what the O stands for. OVER. Now there can never be too many doctors but if it becoming such that a slot set aside for people with a particular demographic is being dominated by a particular subgroup within that demographic then adjustments will be made to accomodate those further down the food chain. Remember that before they became over represented they were under represented at some point.

Is it fair to the ORM's? No. And I am truly sorry things are that way. Like I have said, we all have to deal with consquences of not just ours but other people's actions. Also, everyone who wants in cannot get in.

Bottom line, before ANYBODY gets to be called Doctor and treat others, he must prove his mettle at medical school.

And what about the patients? What about their needs? Do they even matter anymore?

Originally Posted by Freesia88

Bottom line, before ANYBODY gets to be called Doctor and treat others, he must prove his mettle at medical school.

Exactly, and this is where the logic of the URM spoils system clearly breaks down. Estimates vary according to the study, but URMs drop out of med school at a rate of 4x to 7x that of non-URMs. When you consider the financial costs as well as the fact that dropouts take up a slot in the class, then you can begin see the havoc that affirmative action wrecks on our medical education system.

Originally Posted by sibitrum

Exactly, and this is where the logic of the URM spoils system clearly breaks down. Estimates vary according to the study, but URMs drop out of med school at a rate of 4x to 7x that of non-URMs. When you consider the financial costs as well as the fact that dropouts take up a slot in the class, then you can begin see the havoc that affirmative action wrecks on our medical education system.

So because it is more likely that they will not complete medical school they should not be given a chance to even get in at all? Wow.

Since they are such losers, why do they even deserve to pollute the earth with their presence? Might as well kill them off. Sterilize them so they cannot keep reproducing the scum of the earth....Wait...that was done already. Remember the Eugenics program? Does Tuskegee sound familiar to you?

Originally Posted by sibitrum

Exactly, and this is where the logic of the URM spoils system clearly breaks down. Estimates vary according to the study, but URMs drop out of med school at a rate of 4x to 7x that of non-URMs. When you consider the financial costs as well as the fact that dropouts take up a slot in the class, then you can begin see the havoc that affirmative action wrecks on our medical education system.

There go those browns and blacks "wreaking havoc" on medical education, just like they do to the rest of our schools and all the nice neighborhoods.

How many URM are in each school? This table may surprise you. Keep in mind it accounts for all students, not just a single incoming class:

https://www.aamc.org/download/160146...e-sch-2011.pdf

Attrition rates by race/ethnicity:

https://www.aamc.org/download/102346...aibvol7no2.pdf

The vast majority of medical students, regardless of race, do graduate.

Being of lower socioeconomic status (as measured by parents level of education) is also a risk factor for failing to complete the first 2 years of medical school:
https://www.aamc.org/download/165418...9_no11.pdf.pdf

Finally, this report on medical students self-reports of willingness to served in underserved areas:
https://www.aamc.org/download/137518...b_vol9_no8.pdf

I could not find that report that correlated MCAT with proportion passing the Step 1 exam. It was something that our Dean shared with us... it came from AAMC but doesn't seem to be on its website.

Originally Posted by Freesia88

So because it is more likely that they will not complete medical school they should not be given a chance to even get in at all? Wow.

Since they are such losers, why do they even deserve to pollute the earth with their presence? Might as well kill them off. Sterilize them so they cannot keep reproducing the scum of the earth....Wait...that was done already. Remember the Eugenics program? Does Tuskegee sound familiar to you?

Lol, nice rhetoric. Anyway, I'm clearly implicating affirmative action as creating higher attrition rates, not the fact that members of a particular racial group are admitted at all.

Originally Posted by LizzyM

Being of lower socioeconomic status (as measured by parents level of education) is also a risk factor for failing to complete the first 2 years of medical school:
https://www.aamc.org/download/165418...9_no11.pdf.pdf

Hence the problem with affirmative action via "disadvantaged status".

Originally Posted by LizzyM

How many URM are in each school? This table may surprise you. Keep in mind it accounts for all students, not just a single incoming class:

https://www.aamc.org/download/160146...e-sch-2011.pdf

Attrition rates by race/ethnicity:

https://www.aamc.org/download/102346...aibvol7no2.pdf

The vast majority of medical students, regardless of race, do graduate.

Being of lower socioeconomic status (as measured by parents level of education) is also a risk factor for failing to complete the first 2 years of medical school:
https://www.aamc.org/download/165418...9_no11.pdf.pdf

Finally, this report on medical students self-reports of willingness to served in underserved areas:
https://www.aamc.org/download/137518...b_vol9_no8.pdf

I could not find that report that correlated MCAT with proportion passing the Step 1 exam. It was something that our Dean shared with us... it came from AAMC but doesn't seem to be on its website.

I rest my case.

Thank you LizzyM.

One argument against all the attrition stats is that there are far less data pints for the URMs compared to ORMs, so of course there will be more variance. What would the attrition stats look like if there was equal sample size for URM and ORM? Sadly, we will never know.