What can you do with an MD and no residency training?

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Well, long story short I won't be able to complete my internship and am wondering what options I have available for jobs? Does anyone have any first hand experience with the same problem? I'd like to hear about anything anyone can offer. I've been thinking of doing consulting work, but don't know if you can do that without a medical license. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

You might also be able to look for a postdoc research position, however you do have to have a fairly strong/reputable and reliable background (scores, prior research experience, LOR's, etc.), beyond just mere "interest". Or merely a research assistant-type position?

What went "wrong" with your internship?

Would you be eligible, if you are still interested, to look for restarting, maybe even off schedule (we're still only in August!), a new internship from the beginning somewhere where they might still have some unfilled spots or needs at this time?

I think this question has been raised before in here...re. what can one "do" with an MD degree. Stuff like Pharma drug rep has also been brought up, if I remember correctly. Try to do a search.

"Consulting" sounds pretty vague. I'm thinking that if you also have a strong undergrad degree in something "useful" career-wise and marketplace-wise, you might also be able to use your additional bio/MD knowledge/degree to build on some health/biology related "branch-off" of the primary undergraduate degree, as well.

Originally Posted by TraumaJunkie

Well, long story short I won't be able to complete my internship and am wondering what options I have available for jobs? Does anyone have any first hand experience with the same problem? I'd like to hear about anything anyone can offer. I've been thinking of doing consulting work, but don't know if you can do that without a medical license. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Consider a public health residency,I dont think they require a traditional internship and can open avenues in the public sector or private industry.
Path residency may be entered without an internship.
Without a license the MD degree is of limited value.I would suggest your thinking about trying again to complete a internship in something to at least become eligible for licensure.

As mentioned before, very few options that involve using your MD. You can't get a license without at least one year postgraduate training, and some states require two or even three. An MD is only an academic degree, like a Ph.D. but not as widely accepted, without a license to practice. You won't be able to get an academic post without a postgrad spot, as a previous poster mentioned.

You could teach at a community college, do 'consulting', or do something else entirely.

You have to make a decision at this point. Do you want to ever practice clinical medicine again in your lifetime? If not, then doing a residency is probably not a good idea. Remember, however, that you're probably feeling pretty bad about medicine at this time but any time in your life is better than internship.

However, if you think that you might want to practice medicine at some point in your life, you should consider at least finishing an internship. There are some pretty cushy residencies for those who don't want to work too hard, especially in Family Medicine, PM&R and Psychiatry. Some FM residencies have almost zero call, 9-5 work hours and weekends off, and they're pretty easy to get.

Can the OP elaborate on what happened at his internship? I think we are all curious. Thanks

Originally Posted by beyond all hope

As mentioned before, very few options that involve using your MD. You can't get a license without at least one year postgraduate training, and some states require two or even three. An MD is only an academic degree, like a Ph.D. but not as widely accepted, without a license to practice. You won't be able to get an academic post without a postgrad spot, as a previous poster mentioned.

You could teach at a community college, do 'consulting', or do something else entirely.

You have to make a decision at this point. Do you want to ever practice clinical medicine again in your lifetime? If not, then doing a residency is probably not a good idea. Remember, however, that you're probably feeling pretty bad about medicine at this time but any time in your life is better than internship.

However, if you think that you might want to practice medicine at some point in your life, you should consider at least finishing an internship. There are some pretty cushy residencies for those who don't want to work too hard, especially in Family Medicine, PM&R and Psychiatry. Some FM residencies have almost zero call, 9-5 work hours and weekends off, and they're pretty easy to get.

A preventive medicine residency requires at least 1 year of internship (be it internal medicine, general surgery, or whatever).

If you want to get into health policy, a residency would be recommended. You won't be able to get very far unless you are able to convince physicians that you are "one of them", and consequently you won't be very attractive to policymaking institutions seeking to hire physicians.

If you want to get into health care consulting, it should be pretty easy to do so with just an M.D. The big consulting houses like McKinsey will start you out at the Associate level if you have your M.D. Although a "relevant" background would be nice, it's not necessary. McKinsey hires 21 year-olds with English B.A.'s all the time. Most of the training is on-the-job, anyway -- all you have to do is demonstrate that you are bright, able to learn quickly, and able to present yourself well. Then they can just stick you on some biotechnology or pharmaceutical sales project and tell the prospective client that there is an M.D. on the team. Bingo, sale.

Some people do graduate with an M.D., forego residency, and go straight into research positions. One of my professors did this -- got his M.D., went straight to the NIH, and carved out a pretty nice academic career studying RCT design. The previous posters are correct, however, in suggesting that breaking into academia would be easier if you completed a residency in something.

Cheers
-AT.

Originally Posted by APACHE3

Can the OP elaborate on what happened at his internship? I think we are all curious. Thanks

Family issues have arisen in which it makes life for my family difficult when I'm working nights. (i'm in a heavy call field).

One guy from last year's graduation class at my school went for venture capital instead of residency. You could also do research.

You can always go to law school.

Pharmeceuticals. I had a friend who worked for one (she was an MPH) and she said the MDs made 200K plus.

Also, bench top research (although many find it very boring) offers a very flexible schedule.

Best of luck to you.

this may seem like an obvious question, but if the problem is that the field you chose is too demanding, why not do an internship in an easier field.

It may not be your field of choice, but maybe getting an internship under your belt in a less call-heavy field/less demanding program would at least leave you more options in the long-term.

many medicine internships have night float systems which would limit the amt of overnight work you do and would restrict it to set blocks.

anyway, just a thought b/c from what everyone has told me, having the internship and therfore in many states being eligible for a license just opens way more doors for you than not, so if you can stick it out in an easier program or field it might be worth it.

Originally Posted by TraumaJunkie

Family issues have arisen in which it makes life for my family difficult when I'm working nights. (i'm in a heavy call field).

Originally Posted by mksup

this may seem like an obvious question, but if the problem is that the field you chose is too demanding, why not do an internship in an easier field..

ok i'll bite. Which fields have the easiest residencies ?

Originally Posted by docemesis

ok i'll bite. Which fields have the easiest residencies ?

No residency is "easy", but some that I think have lighter schedules are path, rads, and psych. All surgical fields are not the easiest and medicine and its derivatives are also out as well.

Path residency may be entered without an internship.

Isn't that kind of like saying pediatrics can be entered without an internship? Although pathology got rid of the rotating internship requirement in 2002, first-year path residents are still "interns" aka scut puppies - though certainly it is much more regularly scheduled scut.

Originally Posted by TraumaJunkie

Family issues have arisen in which it makes life for my family difficult when I'm working nights. (i'm in a heavy call field).

Unless there is catastrophic illness in your family, you may want to reconsider quitting residency. There are few jobs that pay significant money that do not require overnight travel at least one to two times per week, or at least require you to work late into the evening.

Originally Posted by LongQT

Unless there is catastrophic illness in your family, you may want to reconsider quitting residency. There are few jobs that pay significant money that do not require overnight travel at least one to two times per week, or at least require you to work late into the evening.

what jobs require frequent travel??? just wondering what you were referring to

Originally Posted by FLpk1girl86

what jobs require frequent travel??? just wondering what you were referring to

when this thread was started..

-- george w. bush was just starting his 2nd term in office.
-- hurricane katrina hadn't happened yet.
-- rose parks was still alive.

don't hold your breath waiting for a reply from "longqt."

Originally Posted by doctorFred

when this thread was started..

-- george w. bush was just starting his 2nd term in office.
-- hurricane katrina hadn't happened yet.
-- rose parks was still alive.

don't hold your breath waiting for a reply from "longqt."

Who is Rose Parks?

Originally Posted by gutonc

Who is Rose Parks?

RosA Parks.

Originally Posted by Winged Scapula

RosA Parks.

Well...Rosa I've obviously heard of. This Rose person though...no idea.
(I'd put a smiley here if they weren't so damn stupid.)

Originally Posted by gutonc

Well...Rosa I've obviously heard of. This Rose person though...no idea.
(I'd put a smiley here if they weren't so damn stupid.)

Sorry...I've had an annoying and tiring day, so missed your sarcasm.

In short, the MD without residency training is basically the same as having a BA/BS. Depending on what your undergraduate degree is in, that will determine your career opportunities. If its a Biology degree, then, basically, there are no good job opportunities other than being a lab rat. Try and complete at least an internship if at all possible.

okay but what kind of options are out there if you have completed your internship, got a license, but may not want to practice in the clinical setting?

Originally Posted by sdortho1

okay but what kind of options are out there if you have completed your internship, got a license, but may not want to practice in the clinical setting?

numerous other threads address this, so you may want to do a search, but they offer clinical solutions, not nonclinical.

but most of the opportunities i know of after completing internship and getting licensed are clinical, but some are stuff like medispas or injecting botox, writing prescriptions, or h&p's, which are clinical-ish.

If you want another non-clinical job you'll probably have to either do pharma or do another degree in your field of interest. Sometimes you can do business consulting in some firms. You don't need internship for those.

I am a current medical student that seems to be losing interest. I have realized this is a very long and tiring road. Currently, I am a third year med student and just want to keep moving forward and finish my degree. I do not want to go into a field that requires demanding residency.

According to this thread, it has been stated that PMR, family, psych, all offer well residencies that run from about 9-5, no weekends, and no real calls. Is this still true?

The other field I was interested in was internal med, but I really don't like the idea of being completely lifeless for 3 years. Please let me know your thoughts, thanks!

Originally Posted by SMC123

I am a current medical student that seems to be losing interest. I have realized this is a very long and tiring road. Currently, I am a third year med student and just want to keep moving forward and finish my degree. I do not want to go into a field that requires demanding residency.

According to this thread, it has been stated that PMR, family, psych, all offer well residencies that run from about 9-5, no weekends, and no real calls. Is this still true?

The other field I was interested in was internal med, but I really don't like the idea of being completely lifeless for 3 years. Please let me know your thoughts, thanks!

IM is not completely lifeless, particularly with the new rules, and as you progress in training. Psych, PMR, derm, FM +/- and depending on program, occupational medicine, preventive medicine, rad onc are all residencies that are pretty cush. MD with no residency whatsoever limits you, but you can potentially do healthcare consulting, epic consulting, research, venture capitalist, work with pharm companies.

Originally Posted by SMC123

I am a current medical student that seems to be losing interest. I have realized this is a very long and tiring road. Currently, I am a third year med student and just want to keep moving forward and finish my degree. I do not want to go into a field that requires demanding residency.

According to this thread, it has been stated that PMR, family, psych, all offer well residencies that run from about 9-5, no weekends, and no real calls. Is this still true?

The other field I was interested in was internal med, but I really don't like the idea of being completely lifeless for 3 years. Please let me know your thoughts, thanks!

- Radiology or Radiation Oncology (if you can do an intern medicine/transitional year)
- Dermatology
- Pathology
- PM&R
- Psychiatry

FM depends on the program. There are probably some IM programs that are more chill than some FM programs.

Originally Posted by sunset823

- Radiology or Radiation Oncology (if you can do an intern medicine/transitional year)
- Dermatology
- Pathology
- PM&R
- Psychiatry

FM depends on the program. There are probably some IM programs that are more chill than some FM programs.

Rads is a long residency, and weekends/call is had so no, not a chill residency. Is it better than something like surgery? I think so, but def not chill.

Originally Posted by sunset823

- Radiology or Radiation Oncology (if you can do an intern medicine/transitional year)
- Dermatology
- Pathology
- PM&R
- Psychiatry

FM depends on the program. There are probably some IM programs that are more chill than some FM programs.

Rads, rad onc, derm, PM&R all require a prelim or transitional year, all will have call that year if not throughout residency.

But I honestly don't think you could stand any of these just for the schedule -- you have to actually like it. Your interests, not your work adverse nature needs to be your guide or 60 hours will seem like 100.

Almost no residents work 9-5.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Almost no residents work 9-5.

Agree. Even with psychiatry there are often morning lectures at 7:30 or 8 am you will need to attend. However, you will often be out of the clinic/hospital by 4:30/5

Originally Posted by michaelrack

Agree. Even with psychiatry there are often morning lectures at 7:30 or 8 am you will need to attend. However, you will often be out of the clinic/hospital by 4:30/5

You also have to note that Psych is also mentally taxing and might not be for everybody. While the field is stereotyped as the art/music of medicine (johnnydrama occasionally espouses this) it would be more accurate if he included the possible agitation of the psychotic or one of peaceful patients going into anxiety. Heck, what if they escape the ward? You would be in a big malpractice suit if they somehow think it is your fault.

Originally Posted by michaelrack

Agree. Even with psychiatry there are often morning lectures at 7:30 or 8 am you will need to attend. However, you will often be out of the clinic/hospital by 4:30/5

Upper level psych resident here, and I'll work close to 8 to 5 most days for the rest of my 2 years. However that doesn't include documentation, reading and even supervision, so it's still not that easy. And prior to this, I spent 2 years averaging 60 to 70 hours a week and on call every other weekend. I know it's easier than lots of other specialties, but it's still a lot harder than your usual 40 hour/week type of job.

As for stresses in psychiatry, yeah, they're there, but it's not so much the psychotic patients. It's the borderline patients and the suicidal patients that can get to you. You also have to absorb a lot of emotions throughout the day, which is really taxing. When you get to inpatient work, you feel the need to focus on pretty everything that's said or done in the room, which can also be exhausting.

So no pity party, but psych's not super easy in spite of being an easier residency than most.

Originally Posted by sunset823

- Radiology or Radiation Oncology (if you can do an intern medicine/transitional year)
- Dermatology
- Pathology
- PM&R
- Psychiatry

FM depends on the program. There are probably some IM programs that are more chill than some FM programs.

Yeah, not radiology. Those guys can have miserable call. Rad Onc maybe, but it's super hard to get into. I think 8 to 5 is fairly typical in that field, though. Derm, maybe, but they do have some on call responsibilities. I heard the derm folks at my hospital work an average of 50 hours/week, but their boards are super hard, which might contribute to stress. Pathology seems to have a lot of knowledge requirements, which could be stressful in its own way. I don't know about PM&R, but yeah, I'd say neither FM nor IM are particularly chill.

Originally Posted by SMC123

I am a current medical student that seems to be losing interest. I have realized this is a very long and tiring road. Currently, I am a third year med student and just want to keep moving forward and finish my degree. I do not want to go into a field that requires demanding residency.

According to this thread, it has been stated that PMR, family, psych, all offer well residencies that run from about 9-5, no weekends, and no real calls. Is this still true?

The other field I was interested in was internal med, but I really don't like the idea of being completely lifeless for 3 years. Please let me know your thoughts, thanks!

I agree with the +/- depending on the program. I'm in PM&R just starting PGY3 year and PGY2 was worse than my intern year, thanks to the ++ from the program. Average start time 7am with many 12+ hour days during PGY2 year. Call from home but rounding in house on the weekend.

Life style of the attendings we're in contact with aren't exactly the low key lifestyles I was expecting, but relative to a surgeons' they sure are.

I recommend finding/maintaining a hobby that keeps you sane. I enjoy moonlighting, something uplifting about making $100/h as a resident.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

Rads, rad onc, derm, PM&R all require a prelim or transitional year, all will have call that year if not throughout residency.

But I honestly don't think you could stand any of these just for the schedule -- you have to actually like it. Your interests, not your work adverse nature needs to be your guide or 60 hours will seem like 100.

Almost no residents work 9-5.

Would anyone throw EM into the mix?

Not exactly low-stress, especially at Level 1 places, but if you like it enough to consider it and don't mind doing some night/weekend/holiday shifts, the hours in residency and schedule/pay as an attending aren't half bad.

Originally Posted by TheThroat

No residency is "easy", but some that I think have lighter schedules are path, rads, and psych. All surgical fields are not the easiest and medicine and its derivatives are also out as well.

I wouldn't do path if you're looking for cush. It's certainly not a 9-5 job. the hours range from 11-14 hrs daily of clinical duties with lots of presentations and conferences to prepare for off hours. Every day you beat yourself up for not knowing enough.

Originally Posted by medicomel

... Every day you beat yourself up for not knowing enough.

I would hope as a resident you feel this way in every specialty.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

I would hope as a resident you feel this way in every specialty.

Goodness, I would hope not! Residents in any specially should certainly be aware of how much they don't actually know, take note of areas in which they can learn more, and strive to become more knowledgeable. But to "beat yourself up" on a daily basis for not knowing enough is undoubtedly an unhealthy way to learn.

Originally Posted by CopperStripes

Goodness, I would hope not! Residents in any specially should certainly be aware of how much they don't actually know, take note of areas in which they can learn more, and strive to become more knowledgeable. But to "beat yourself up" on a daily basis for not knowing enough is undoubtedly an unhealthy way to learn.

It can be demoralizing. That's why it's going the way of subspecialty. You simply can't know everything.

(Quote...) "According to this thread, it has been stated that PMR, family, psych, all offer well residencies that run from about 9-5, no weekends, and no real calls. Is this still true?"

I'm in psychiatry, PGY3 and there is call. I can't imagine a residency with no "real call". I'm in a very call friendly program and we have about 2-3 q month of 5pm to 8am, with lots of awake time.

Have you considered you're depressed? You sound it, no injury intended. Just hope you regain your vigor if that's the way for you.

All the best!!

Originally Posted by Psych2014

(Quote...) "According to this thread, it has been stated that PMR, family, psych, all offer well residencies that run from about 9-5, no weekends, and no real calls. Is this still true?"

I'm in psychiatry, PGY3 and there is call. I can't imagine a residency with no "real call". I'm in a very call friendly program and we have about 2-3 q month of 5pm to 8am, with lots of awake time.

Have you considered you're depressed? You sound it, no injury intended. Just hope you regain your vigor if that's the way for you.

All the best!!

are you saying that every 2-3 months you have call from 5pm to 8pm. If thats the case i wouldnt exactly qualify that as "call". This friday Ill be at the hospital from 7am Friday until like noon on saturday and pretty much guaranteed that will all be "wake time"......

Originally Posted by BolderNewfy

are you saying that every 2-3 months you have call from 5pm to 8pm. If thats the case i wouldnt exactly qualify that as "call". This friday Ill be at the hospital from 7am Friday until like noon on saturday and pretty much guaranteed that will all be "wake time"......

Did you guys not change to the night float system?

Originally Posted by BolderNewfy

are you saying that every 2-3 months you have call from 5pm to 8pm. If thats the case i wouldnt exactly qualify that as "call". This friday Ill be at the hospital from 7am Friday until like noon on saturday and pretty much guaranteed that will all be "wake time"......

He said 8 am not 8 pm, so they're overnight calls 2-3 times a month. Interestingly, as a psychiatry PGY3, I'd consider this call intensive. I'm on overnight call about one a month now, but that's because we're down one person in our call pool. It should only be once every 6 to 12 weeks. Not to say I haven't done a ton of overnight call in my first two years, so he/she is right -- there's still call in psychiatry.

Originally Posted by DrAwsome

Did you guys not change to the night float system?

Our night float is Sunday through Thursday, so other people still have to do overnights on the weekends. With a smaller program, it's hard to have nightfloat expand to cover all overnight call.

Originally Posted by BolderNewfy

are you saying that every 2-3 months you have call from 5pm to 8pm. If thats the case i wouldnt exactly qualify that as "call". This friday Ill be at the hospital from 7am Friday until like noon on saturday and pretty much guaranteed that will all be "wake time"......

PGY3 here have 1-2 calls per month, from 5pm to 8am (overnight). In the first few months of training interns to competency we have 2-3. So, I consider that ok. PGY-4 is ZERO call. God, I can't wait. Even at 2/month, I so hate call.

Originally Posted by Doctor Bagel

Upper level psych resident here, and I'll work close to 8 to 5 most days for the rest of my 2 years. However that doesn't include documentation, reading and even supervision, so it's still not that easy. And prior to this, I spent 2 years averaging 60 to 70 hours a week and on call every other weekend. I know it's easier than lots of other specialties, but it's still a lot harder than your usual 40 hour/week type of job.

As for stresses in psychiatry, yeah, they're there, but it's not so much the psychotic patients. It's the borderline patients and the suicidal patients that can get to you. You also have to absorb a lot of emotions throughout the day, which is really taxing. When you get to inpatient work, you feel the need to focus on pretty everything that's said or done in the room, which can also be exhausting.

So no pity party, but psych's not super easy in spite of being an easier residency than most.

Not to mention the crazy attendings, transfer dumps, clinical contracts that are outside the city limits (because of funding issues), and no patient caps (unlike IM). The psychotics are actually the bright spot of the day for many residents - at least something can be done for those patients.

I have always thought the ghetto-safenet career choice of having an MD degree is teaching MCAT at Kaplan. You may be easily promoted to a director of something. If you know absolutely nothing after 4 years of medical school, at least you know how to get into medical school.

Originally Posted by ny skindoc

Consider a public health residency,I dont think they require a traditional internship and can open avenues in the public sector or private industry.

What is a "public health residency"?! If you mean Preventive Medicine residency, then they require at the very least 1 year in a primary care specialty. Most prefer to take applicants who had already completed a full residency.

Originally Posted by beyond all hope

There are some pretty cushy residencies for those who don't want to work too hard, especially in Family Medicine, PM&R and Psychiatry. Some FM residencies have almost zero call, 9-5 work hours and weekends off, and they're pretty easy to get.

I have never heard of a FM residency that does not have call, 9-5, with no weekends!!! Extremely impossible.

thanks! you have a great idea..ill try this.