Jason & Tippytoe

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I'm really curious about why professional people, Drs.!!!
Would come on a forum like this as much as you two have been for quite awhile now about a year, like its your job to post alot of negativity about your profession.

It just doesn't seem kosher that you guys have work, families , a life and this what you choose to do ???
Argue with this Shrunek guy and iemily and whoever else who doesn't want to hear what you have to say
.
You never really answer that question, its very weird.
And I agree with alot of things you have to say, but its just so weird, really creepy obsession.

Originally Posted by IandI

I'm really curious about why professional people, Drs.!!!
Would come on a forum like this as much as you two have been for quite awhile now about a year, like its your job to post alot of negativity about your profession.

It just doesn't seem kosher that you guys have work, families , a life and this what you choose to do ???
Argue with this Shrunek guy and iemily and whoever else who doesn't want to hear what you have to say
.
You never really answer that question, its very weird.
And I agree with alot of things you have to say, but its just so weird, really creepy obsession.

You know when you see on the news how some family loses a child or a loved one to a drunk driver or some other avoidable cause? They usually find some way to make it a purpose in life to prevent others from experiencing the same loss. Well, I lost my career to optometry. I'm leaving the profession for good, but I feel an obligation to warn others of what I didn't become aware of until it was too late. People can choose to listen and ignore, or listen and investigate on their own. It's up to them. That's why I'm here.

As an addendum, I've answered this questions several times before.

I already blocked Jason K but at least Tippy Toe is someone more reasonable to talk to and not just someone who blatantly rambles about the same thing two thousand times over no matter what you say.

Originally Posted by Jason K

Well, I lost my career to optometry.

After putting all that time, money, energy, and prime years of your life into optometry. Then having no payoff at the end would drive a man crazy. I think you lost more than a career. You lost ......happiness. Its the feeling of regret that always haunts a man.

But I also think you are not here to just troll others and even tippytoe for that matter. You really want others to not go through or suffer like you. Which others should understand. Although you do single out shnurek too much.

Hopefully your new business venture is a success.

Originally Posted by Jason K

You know when you see on the news how some family loses a child or a loved one to a drunk driver or some other avoidable cause? They usually find some way to make it a purpose in life to prevent others from experiencing the same loss. Well, I lost my career to optometry. I'm leaving the profession for good, but I feel an obligation to warn others of what I didn't become aware of until it was too late. People can choose to listen and ignore, or listen and investigate on their own. It's up to them. That's why I'm here.

It is what it is... but it is not even remotely close to "losing a child or loved one to some unadvoidable cause" .
No offense, I think you may need some pschological counseling, good luck.

Originally Posted by IandI

It is what it is... but it is not even remotely close to "losing a child or loved one to some unadvoidable cause" .
No offense, I think you may need some pschological counseling, good luck.

You asked the question, I answered it with a simple comparison. I never placed the two events on the same plane, you did.

Maybe this will be more pleasing to you:

Originally Posted by Jason K

"You know when you see on the news how some family that buys a 200K home that gets destroyed in a flood, and they have no flood insurance? They often find some way to make it a purpose in life to speak out and prevent others from experiencing the same loss. Well, I lost my career to optometry. I'm leaving the profession for good, but I feel an obligation to warn others of what I didn't become aware of until it was too late. People can choose to listen and ignore, or listen and investigate on their own. It's up to them. That's why I'm here."

I find it amusing that there are ODs on here who quietly agree with most of what I and other "naysayers" claim, and yet they're the first ones to criticize anyone who would take the time to point out the slope that optometry is sliding down. They're also the first ones to paint on a smile when the wide-eyed, bushy-tailed pre-optometry students come hopping into their office. Are you helping anyone by hiding the truth? What good are you doing by ignoring the realities that we both know are hidden from view?

Optometry is diseased and its days as a private, independent profession are numbered. It says nothing of its members, it just is what it is. You know it and I know it. Tippytoe knows it, and the vast majority of the ODs in the nation know it. You know who doesn't know it? The people who are placing their entire professional futures, spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a bet that optometry will provide a solid future. They're continuing to flood into a profession that can't support them while most of the ODs in the nation stand by and twiddle their thumbs saying "Not my problem." They complain, moan, and scream on ODWire, some angry, some sad, some just plain disappointed with what the profession has become and is becoming, but virtually none of them do anything to warn others about what they, themselves, already know.

Personally, I think it shows a degree of callousness that there aren't more ODs on here. The lack of presence certainly doesn't stem from a shortage of ODs who know the truth about what's coming. I'd feel a little guilty if I knew a store were selling broken, vastly over-priced, unwarranted computers, and then chose to stand outside the store and throw banana peels at the guy who was telling people that what they're buying is not what they think it is. That's pretty cold, dude....maybe you need the counseling.

I'm not on here to make friends. I'm not on here to make people feel good or bad about themselves, I'm not even on here to tell people not to go to optometry school. I'm on here to warn people about the fact that optometry, as a profession, is sick, and if they devote their entire future to it, they'd better be sure it is what they think it is. In most cases, it's not.

Originally Posted by Shnurek

I already blocked Jason K but at least Tippy Toe is someone more reasonable to talk to and not just someone who blatantly rambles about the same thing two thousand times over no matter what you say.

Funny how you "blocked" me, and yet you continue to read and respond to my posts. There's a difference between "blocking" and "not liking what someone has to say."

Originally Posted by IandI

I'm really curious about why professional people, Drs.!!!
Would come on a forum like this as much as you two have been for quite awhile now about a year, like its your job to post alot of negativity about your profession.

It just doesn't seem kosher that you guys have work, families , a life and this what you choose to do ???
Argue with this Shrunek guy and iemily and whoever else who doesn't want to hear what you have to say
.
You never really answer that question, its very weird.
And I agree with alot of things you have to say, but its just so weird, really creepy obsession.

Actually I've been on SDN since 2002 (under a different name). My views of optometry were vastly different back then. I was very much pro-optometry and even got into some pissing matches with some OMDs while defending my profession.

Since then, I've seen the light. I've been beaten down by patients, insurance companies, my professional organizations, and all my competitors, who have doubled in my relatively small city since I started. I've had the chance to talk to hundreds of ODs. I originally came on just to voice my one opinion. Then a host of high school, and pre-OD and OD students came on to say I was crazy and a loser and a failure, etc.... when in fact, I have a very successful private practice, started cold a few months after I graduated. I started with absolutely ZERO patients and built it up on my own (despite what idiot Obama says). BUT, and this is the crux of my concern, it's a practice that I could not possibly build today if I had to start over from scratch.

So I only felt it necessary to show them that I am right in my assessment. And try to point out that a person acutally doing the job is ALWAYS more knowledgable than a person looking at it from the outside.......be it a bridge builder, an airline pilot or even an optometrist.

It pains me to see, what I believe to be, terrible mistakes being made by young people that have their whole life ahead of them. Most have the ablity to do better and go farther than optometry will allow them to go. It is very much a dead-end job now. There are virtually no chances of upward mobility. Their starting pay is likely to be the highest pay they can hope to achieve in their career now. Their life will be that of a nomadic optometrist moving from one 10 x 10 foot doc-in-a-box location to another, working feverishly for a high school graduate that just moved from the garden shop to the optical.

Unfortunately, it seems many, many of the generation Y crew seem to know it all. They can do no wrong. They can think no wrong. Everything has been handed to them so they believe all they have to do is go through the motions and it will be.

I'm only here to tell them optometry has changed almost 180 degree from what it was when I graduated and before. We have many more players in the game. Powerful players that crush the little ODs and make life much harder than it should be for a well-educated doctoral-level individual.

I'm fully aware that the know-it-all will not listen. But there are some that will read what we write and investigate a little more and decide that optometry is not what they thought it was. I would have given anything to have the internet when I was a college student. There is so much more infomation available now. When I was interested in optometry school, I could not log onto their website and learn everything. I had to go down to the local library and look them up in the old microfish rolls. It took hours to go through it all. I did not have varied opinions. All I had was a few old local ODs that graduated in 1958 and 1969 to talk to.

So if I stop just one or two people from making what I think is a mistake, I've done my job here. For the ones that are dead-set on going to OD school, nothing I or anyone else can say will change their mind. We are not talking to those people (unless they insult us.

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

Actually I've been on SDN since 2002 (under a different name). My views of optometry were vastly different back then. I was very much pro-optometry and even got into some pissing matches with some OMDs while defending my profession.

Since then, I've seen the light. I've been beaten down by patients, insurance companies, my professional organizations, and all my competitors, who have doubled in my relatively small city since I started. I've had the chance to talk to hundreds of ODs. I originally came on just to voice my one opinion. Then a host of high school, and pre-OD and OD students came on to say I was crazy and a loser and a failure, etc.... when in fact, I have a very successful private practice, started cold a few months after I graduated. I started with absolutely ZERO patients and built it up on my own (despite what idiot Obama says). BUT, and this is the crux of my concern, it's a practice that I could not possibly build today if I had to start over from scratch.

So I only felt it necessary to show them that I am right in my assessment. And try to point out that a person acutally doing the job is ALWAYS more knowledgable than a person looking at it from the outside.......be it a bridge builder, an airline pilot or even an optometrist.

It pains me to see, what I believe to be, terrible mistakes being made by young people that have their whole life ahead of them. Most have the ablity to do better and go farther than optometry will allow them to go. It is very much a dead-end job now. There are virtually no chances of upward mobility. Their starting pay is likely to be the highest pay they can hope to achieve in their career now. Their life will be that of a nomadic optometrist moving from one 10 x 10 foot doc-in-a-box location to another, working feverishly for a high school graduate that just moved from the garden shop to the optical.

Unfortunately, it seems many, many of the generation Y crew seem to know it all. They can do no wrong. They can think no wrong. Everything has been handed to them so they believe all they have to do is go through the motions and it will be.

I'm only here to tell them optometry has changed almost 180 degree from what it was when I graduated and before. We have many more players in the game. Powerful players that crush the little ODs and make life much harder than it should be for a well-educated doctoral-level individual.

I'm fully aware that the know-it-all will not listen. But there are some that will read what we write and investigate a little more and decide that optometry is not what they thought it was. I would have given anything to have the internet when I was a college student. There is so much more infomation available now. When I was interested in optometry school, I could not log onto their website and learn everything. I had to go down to the local library and look them up in the old microfish rolls. It took hours to go through it all. I did not have varied opinions. All I had was a few old local ODs that graduated in 1958 and 1969 to talk to.

So if I stop just one or two people from making what I think is a mistake, I've done my job here. For the ones that are dead-set on going to OD school, nothing I or anyone else can say will change their mind. We are not talking to those people (unless they insult us.

This is the case with nearly every health profession now. Go read the dental or pharmacy boards and tell me what you find. You have to understand that, while as an optometrist, you may not be driving Maserati's or sipping the most expensive wines, but you will be better off financially than 95% of the population.

Originally Posted by artvandelay786

This is the case with nearly every health profession now. Go read the dental or pharmacy boards and tell me what you find. You have to understand that, while as an optometrist, you may not be driving Maserati's or sipping the most expensive wines, but you will be better off financially than 95% of the population.

Dr. Costanza,

This line of thinking is pretty common and it’s a fail, every time. Here's why:

Guy who lives in a tin hut in Bangladesh: "Boy, times are tough in this economy."
Guy who lives in the projects in Chicago: "Boy, times are tough in this economy."
Guy who lives in a middle class neighborhood: "Boy, times are tough in this economy."
Guy who lives in a 7 BR mansion in Beverly Hills: "Boy, times are tough in this economy."

We all complain about something, it does not mean we are all in the same place. It is understandable, that as an outsider, the difficulties faced by optometry might seem the same as dentistry and medicine, but they are not – not even close. No one on here would argue that things are perfect in dentistry, medicine, or any other field, but to say that optometry is “the same as the rest,” is totally unfounded.

Originally Posted by Jason K

I'm on here to warn people

Originally Posted by Tippytoe

I've done my job here.

I'm not questioning that you both have extraordinary insights into Optometry as a career choice.
I think everything, everything you say about the current state of Optometry and its future is absolutely acurate.
I just think it so strange that you both seem obsessed to set everyone straight over and over and over again
I guess I'm cold, not as warm as you guys.
Your altruism is amazing, thank you so much.

You have promptly commented on every post and pretty much made your point and crushed any dissent, its very clear now how you feel.
You two are very eloquent and witty great guys, anybody who says different is crap.
People have been warned Jason, you have done your job here Tippytoe.
You have made a difference

Originally Posted by IandI

I'm not questioning that you both have extraordinary insights into Optometry as a career choice.
I think everything, everything you say about the current state of Optometry and its future is absolutely acurate.
I just think it so strange that you both seem obsessed to set everyone straight over and over and over again !

You have promptly commented on every post and pretty much made your point and crushed any dissent, its very clear now how you feel.
You two are very eloquent and witty great guys, anybody who says different is crap.
People have been warned Jason, you have done your job here Tippytoe.
You have made a difference.

I appreciate what you've said here, but the reason I don't just "hang it up," is because there are new visitors and "invisible visitors" to this site every day. I get PMs from them quite often. My inbox is full of people saying "Thanks, dude - everything you say checks out when I've asked around to ODs in my area." They deserve to know the truth just as much as the folks who've been on here for years. I can only wish I would have spent time on here when I was a pre-opt. It would have saved me a ton of grief.

I'm doing my part to keep money out of the pockets of those who would profit from students ill-fated professional aspirations and to give fair warning to students who would accept advice from someone who's "been there." If they choose to ignore what I say and enter the profession, I wish them well, and at least they can't say they weren't warned.

Every OD I know complains about the rampant oversupply of ODs and how it's crushing the profession, but very few of them take the time to share what they know with those who don't. If more of them did, we might not be in the mess that we're in. I'm sorry to say I'm thrilled to be leaving the very expensive dead weight behind me, but like others who have or will leave optometry, it's been a very expensive mistake.

On several occasions, I've heard numerous ODs say "If the AOA would only come out and make a statement indicating that we have a sufficient supply of ODs, we'd be done with the new school problem." Why not take the reverse approach? If every OD out there who sees the problem for what it is would simply be honest with a the students who approach them, the problem might solve itself. It's really too late now for that anyway, but at least by keeping people informed, it might limit the money flowing into greedy pockets of private school administrators, the AOA, and commercial entities that are strangling the profession with wire supplied by the profession itself.

I think as an ophthalmologist what tippytoe and Jason K have to say are valid. I had a classmate in medical school who wanted to go into pediatrics. She matched and on match day she was talking about the mercedes she was going to buy when she became an attending. I thought to myself when she said that "Wierd..not sure if she fully researched this but whatever..." Well...her starting salary when she got a job at children's hospital was about 70K and she was like WTF..Several years later she essentially stopped practicing pediatrics and applied for and got a spot as an anesthesiology resident. If someone had just told her it probably wouldve avoided all the headache and heartache. The reality of the situation is that when students who are between 18 and 25 are choosing what career they are going to have for the rest of their lives, their decision is based on their perceptions and what others tell them. Now..for medicine sometimes that information could be completely wrong like "You can't do OB if you want to have a family" or "Ophthalmology residency is really chill". So what happens? People join their specialty and become frustrated and then end up not practicing or switching careers.
In ophthalmology this happens. Med students are told by other doctors, "Ophthalmology is the rolls royce of all specialities. You will be rich and hardly do any work". Yeah..well that was true about 30 years ago. People join ophthalmology and in the residency they are shell shocked with all the work and call they have to do. We have first year residents with a glazed look over their eyes in the first couple weeks when they realize how hardcore the residency is. Then they realize the starting salary is nowhere what they thought it was going to be. They grow frustrated when patients get confused between an optometrist and ophthalmologist or friends from college as them "to hook them up with contacts". All of a sudden, there is a resident dropping out of ophthalmology to do something else. Look up sfmatch.org at the open residency spots. It happens all the time.

In optometry I am sure similar things happen. Shadowing someone is only going to give you a small sense of what a career is like. I am a surgeon. I watched surgery as an undergraduate and I will tell you watching surgery and actually doing surgery are two total different things. In hindsight, me going into the OR and watching someone operate gave me very little insight into what it is like to be a surgeon. I believe shadowing ODs will give people small insight into the actual career unless people like Jason K and Tippytoe speak up. Also we need people on the other side of the coin to speak up as well if they think things are great. It is a mistake however to run off Tippytoe and Jason K just because their viewpoint is unfavorable or not what people here (students) want to hear. I understand why they don't want to hear it. If I was in residency and someone told me being an ophthalmologist wasn't as good as I thought it makes it hard to push through the training etc.. for the light at the end of the tunnel. If I tell you the pot at the end of the rainbow doesn't have gold but coal instead, shoot how motivated am I going to be to find the end of the rainbow now. However to dismiss them in their entirety or ridicule them for speaking out is foolish and shortsighted. These message boards are an exchange for ideas,opinions and thoughts.

Originally Posted by IandI

I'm not questioning that you both have extraordinary insights into Optometry as a career choice.
I think everything, everything you say about the current state of Optometry and its future is absolutely acurate.
I just think it so strange that you both seem obsessed to set everyone straight over and over and over again
I guess I'm cold, not as warm as you guys.
Your altruism is amazing, thank you so much.

You have promptly commented on every post and pretty much made your point and crushed any dissent, its very clear now how you feel.
You two are very eloquent and witty great guys, anybody who says different is crap.
People have been warned Jason, you have done your job here Tippytoe.
You have made a difference

I want to add that Jason and Tippytoe both have a lot of patience. I couldn't help but get really frustrated when i read many of the posts that are written by clueless pre-ops and OD students on here. Thanks for speaking the truth and for representing me in educating these students, whether or not they want to listen. Wish I could have more time to spend on here to share my experience.

If only Jason and Tippytoe were on here back in 2004 when i was deciding to enter OD school, i would not have made this expensive mistake about my future and my life.

Originally Posted by Jason K

Dr. Costanza,

This line of thinking is pretty common and it’s a fail, every time. Here's why:

Guy who lives in a tin hut in Bangladesh: "Boy, times are tough in this economy."
Guy who lives in the projects in Chicago: "Boy, times are tough in this economy."
Guy who lives in a middle class neighborhood: "Boy, times are tough in this economy."
Guy who lives in a 7 BR mansion in Beverly Hills: "Boy, times are tough in this economy."

We all complain about something, it does not mean we are all in the same place. It is understandable, that as an outsider, the difficulties faced by optometry might seem the same as dentistry and medicine, but they are not – not even close. No one on here would argue that things are perfect in dentistry, medicine, or any other field, but to say that optometry is “the same as the rest,” is totally unfounded.

So, perhaps the solution is to be content with pulling in an income higher than ninety-five percent of your countrymen.

Honestly, no health profession is perfect; they all have their flaws and the future is unpredictable:

Dentistry: introduction of mid-level providers, recently developed products to eliminate a large number of dental conditions, the rise of corporate dentistry (yes, seriously), saturation in various metropolitan areas

Medicine: Decrease in reimbursements from Medicare/Medicaid, increased regulation and red-tape, HMOs, more medical schools opening up, push toward poorly-compensated primary care

Pharmacy: too many pharmacy schools, technology/automation of pharmacy, mail-order pharmacy, old pharmacists not retiring as fast as expected

As you can see, optometry is not the only field with a problem. If everyone thought like you, nobody would work -- too much risk, too many cons.

just because the other fields have issues as well does not negate the problems seen in optometry..
that is like telling a prisoner who is being tortured "Well you are getting electrocuted but the other guy is getting whipped, and your cellmate is being starved" It doesn't make it better

You're missing my point. The outlook for several other professions doesn't look all that bright -- are you suggesting that nobody go into dentistry, medicine, pharmacy, etc. as well?

Originally Posted by artvandelay786

You're missing my point. The outlook for several other professions doesn't look all that bright -- are you suggesting that nobody go into dentistry, medicine, pharmacy, etc. as well?

They are saying go to dentistry or medicine instead since they have less problems. Just not optometry or pharmacy.

Originally Posted by artvandelay786

So, perhaps the solution is to be content with pulling in an income higher than ninety-five percent of your countrymen.

As an OD, you will certainly NOT be making more than 95% of your countrymen so I'm not sure where you got that figure. After paying your loans, if you borrowed 150K at 6.8%, you'll be making 60K per year, but you'll be paying taxes on nearly your full income since there's a cap on deduction for student loan interest. Sixty thousands dollars is nowhere near the 95% mark for income in the US. If you borrowed 200K, you'll be paying 18K per year for an income of about 57K per year....again, before taxes.

Now, 57K per year is not terrible, but it certainly takes the fun out of it when you realize you've gone to school for 8-10 years to be capped in the 50-60K income level for a good portion of your career, if not your entire career. The reasoning that points to "a passion for eyes," doesn't hold water since the vast majority of folks entering the profession now will be career refractionists - the addition of many, unnecessary new schools virtually guarantees that reality.

Originally Posted by artvandelay786

Honestly, no health profession is perfect; they all have their flaws and the future is unpredictable:

Dentistry: introduction of mid-level providers, recently developed products to eliminate a large number of dental conditions, the rise of corporate dentistry (yes, seriously), saturation in various metropolitan areas

Medicine: Decrease in reimbursements from Medicare/Medicaid, increased regulation and red-tape, HMOs, more medical schools opening up, push toward poorly-compensated primary care

Pharmacy: too many pharmacy schools, technology/automation of pharmacy, mail-order pharmacy, old pharmacists not retiring as fast as expected

As you can see, optometry is not the only field with a problem. If everyone thought like you, nobody would work -- too much risk, too many cons.

I'm not sure how else to say this, but I'll say it again.....No one on here has ever said that dentistry or medicine are perfect. Your line of reasoning is tantamount to someone claiming that HIV, the flu, and the chicken pox are all pretty much the same since they're all viral infections and people complain about the symptoms.

Dentistry and medicine, while they do face problems, are immeasurably more robust than optometry for a wide variety of reasons. While commercial forces have tried to get into dentistry, there's a built-in resilience that lies int he fact that you can't buy braces on 1800Braces. You can't buy a cavity filling on 1800ClassOneFillings, and you can't buy a root canal on 1800GuttaPercha. Get the point?

Medicine is certainly plagued by te insurance mess, just like optometry. Personally, I wouldn't go to medical OR optometry school now, even if I could rewind the clock. But if you do decide on an MD, your potential career options are infinitely wider than those who choose an OD.

So, you can say until you're blue in the face, that optometry, medicine, and dentistry all face similar obstacles, and you'd be right in that statement, but that's not the issue. The issue is not what troubles they face, it's the effects that those pressures actually exert on professionals in the fields. That's what matters.

Just be grateful that you picked dentistry. In about 10 years, you'll look back on this thread and thank yourself for doing so. Be sure to buddy up with some ODs while you're in school. After you graduate, if you ever get bummed about the fact that your back aches (about the only complaint I hear from my dental friends), just call up one of the ODs you know and ask how their career is going. You might have to ask them to talk loudly on the phone since they'll have to speak over the background noise from the TV section, the lady handing out samples of little hotdog pieces, and possibly a Vitamix demo.

Impressive.. you can really tell that jason and tippy are highly intelligent. I believe I just read some of their best posts ever (especially those 2 at the start explaining why you donate your time to preventing others from making the same mistake). I find it continually amazing that people blatantly ignore what practiced optometrists say. On the med forums for a pre-med to ignore an attending, they would get laughed off the site almost.

I think that Jason and Tippytoe are a bit over the top but a lot of what they say is based in fact.

I would ask them...if someone was intent on going into optometry school and they want to own a private practice when they graduate, what steps would you suggest they take to make that dream a reality?

Honest question....please try to refrain from saying "it's impossible or don't go to optometry school." What would you suggest they do?

Originally Posted by KHE

Honest question....please try to refrain from saying "it's impossible or don't go to optometry school." What would you suggest they do?

Well, the first thing I’d suggest would be a healthy affinity for risk-taking…..something on the order of base-jumping with a large umbrella instead of a pair of parachutes. Someone coming out of school in the next 5 -10 years would have to be borderline insane to consider putting up the capital for a practice startup or purchase since private practice optometry is on its way out, but if they did, they’d better figure out some way to learn all of the things they will never be taught in optometry school, particularly the ins and outs of billing and coding and small business management. A new grad starting up today, with no knowledge of coding and billing, will faceplant horribly if they were to try and start cold, in my opinion. I can name several new grads in the last couple of years who have lost most of what they put up for a few cold starts that went south quickly, and I’m sure that was a large part of it. You just can’t afford to leave money on the table anymore. You also should be prepared to move to a place that’s thousands of miles from where you’d like to live – away from family and friends and everything you’re familiar with.

In my opinion, a buy-in into a group probably would make the most sense. As I’ve said too many times to count, there will be a few “good landing spots.” That would be an example of such a spot. The reality is, there will be very few opportunities like that in the coming years, while the other 99.999% of grads will funnel right into the mouth of the commercial lion. So, trying to link up with a group practice that might be open to an associate to buy-in situation would be a good idea. This would be the optometric equivalent to winning the lottery, however.

That’s the problem. You’re speaking to the miniscule percentage of future grads who might get out and find their way into a “good” spot. I’m speaking to the other 99.999% who will be very expensive cannon fodder. Here's the key: The latter will destroy the profession for the former.

Originally Posted by Jason K

So, trying to link up with a group practice that might be open to an associate to buy-in situation would be a good idea. This would be the optometric equivalent to winning the lottery, however.

Other than conscience, what is stopping those that are established and heading up these groups from totally low-balling those trying to join up in regards to their salary and compensation?

I'd imagine the docs in these positions are well aware of the job market and the opportunities that are available to new grads. This is hypothetical, but you ODs may know the reality; I can imagine an established office opening up a slot and getting 20 applicants that get into a bidding war over who will accept the lowest salary.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

Other than conscience, what is stopping those that are established and heading up these groups from totally low-balling those trying to join up in regards to their salary and compensation?

I'd imagine the docs in these positions are well aware of the job market and the opportunities that are available to new grads. This is hypothetical, but you ODs may know the reality; I can imagine an established office opening up a slot and getting 20 applicants that get into a bidding war over who will accept the lowest salary.

Thoughts?

In that scenario, it's no different than hiring staff. If you simply want a trained monkey to do your bidding then you can lowball people. Most doctors however will not do that because the young doctor, just like with staff will move on as soon as something better comes along.

If you're looking for someone long term, or for a potential partner then it makes little sense to try to abuse them. You need a scenario that works for both parties.

Sort of like dating...if you want to get married, and you take a girl out on a date and at the end of the date you slap her, how likely is it that you'll get married?

Originally Posted by KHE

If you're looking for someone long term, or for a potential partner then it makes little sense to try to abuse them. You need a scenario that works for both parties.

It makes little sense, but it happens all the time. The hiring doc thinks "Well, if he leaves, there will be another 20 right behind him willing to work for the same or less." I see that scenario more frequently than I see a new grad treated fairly. Your practice and hiring philosophy are in line with what Williams Group suggests, but I'd argue that it's not the norm, especially these days.

Originally Posted by Jason K

It makes little sense, but it happens all the time. The hiring doc thinks "Well, if he leaves, there will be another 20 right behind him willing to work for the same or less." I see that scenario more frequently than I see a new grad treated fairly. Your practice and hiring philosophy are in line with what Williams Group suggests, but I'd argue that it's not the norm, especially these days.

I don't think hiring doctors hire with the intention of abusing young doctors, particularly in private practice. I can't speak for commerical places but I think the biggest problem in private practice hiring is that the hiring doctor is unclear about what he really wants.

The result of that is that the hired doctor is left with unclear expectations and it doesn't work out for either side as they become disillusioned with each other.

Originally Posted by KHE

I don't think hiring doctors hire with the intention of abusing young doctors, particularly in private practice. I can't speak for commerical places but I think the biggest problem in private practice hiring is that the hiring doctor is unclear about what he really wants.

The result of that is that the hired doctor is left with unclear expectations and it doesn't work out for either side as they become disillusioned with each other.

I agree that outright abuse is the exception, not the rule, but hiring docs are subject to market pressures and they're not going to be throwing great deals around very often, even though it would be to their benefit if they found the right person with the right motivation. For the most part, they're going to be offering market value for an OD, which is dropping year after year. It's not necessarily out of callousness or abuse, it's just supply and demand.

Originally Posted by thiaeyemd

The reality of the situation is that when students who are between 18 and 25 are choosing what career they are going to have for the rest of their lives, their decision is based on their perceptions and what others tell them. Now..for medicine sometimes that information could be completely wrong like "You can't do OB if you want to have a family" or "Ophthalmology residency is really chill". So what happens? People join their specialty and become frustrated and then end up not practicing or switching careers.
In ophthalmology this happens. Med students are told by other doctors, "Ophthalmology is the rolls royce of all specialities. You will be rich and hardly do any work". Yeah..well that was true about 30 years ago. People join ophthalmology and in the residency they are shell shocked with all the work and call they have to do. We have first year residents with a glazed look over their eyes in the first couple weeks when they realize how hardcore the residency is. Then they realize the starting salary is nowhere what they thought it was going to be. They grow frustrated when patients get confused between an optometrist and ophthalmologist or friends from college as them "to hook them up with contacts". All of a sudden, there is a resident dropping out of ophthalmology to do something else. Look up sfmatch.org at the open residency spots. It happens all the time.

So why is it that on the OMD forums when we ask straightforwardly "What kind of compensation can we expect a minimum/average?" we end up getting repeatedly shot down? No one is forthcoming with this information and you obviously can't ask attendings because you would be immediately labeled as someone who was interested in the specialty for only financial reasons (which is fairly absurd seeing as everyone will say "it isn't much money"). Please be honest with medical students. It's insane when people think that the residency is so easy when in reality it's 1:3 call with a lot of busy nights and long days in clinic on top of an endless amount of reading and studying for which you really don't have time.

Originally Posted by Jason K

I appreciate what you've said here, but the reason I don't just "hang it up," is because there are new visitors and "invisible visitors" to this site every day. I get PMs from them quite often. My inbox is full of people saying "Thanks, dude - everything you say checks out when I've asked around to ODs in my area." They deserve to know the truth just as much as the folks who've been on here for years. I can only wish I would have spent time on here when I was a pre-opt. It would have saved me a ton of grief.

I'm doing my part to keep money out of the pockets of those who would profit from students ill-fated professional aspirations and to give fair warning to students who would accept advice from someone who's "been there." If they choose to ignore what I say and enter the profession, I wish them well, and at least they can't say they weren't warned.

Every OD I know complains about the rampant oversupply of ODs and how it's crushing the profession, but very few of them take the time to share what they know with those who don't. If more of them did, we might not be in the mess that we're in. I'm sorry to say I'm thrilled to be leaving the very expensive dead weight behind me, but like others who have or will leave optometry, it's been a very expensive mistake.

On several occasions, I've heard numerous ODs say "If the AOA would only come out and make a statement indicating that we have a sufficient supply of ODs, we'd be done with the new school problem." Why not take the reverse approach? If every OD out there who sees the problem for what it is would simply be honest with a the students who approach them, the problem might solve itself. It's really too late now for that anyway, but at least by keeping people informed, it might limit the money flowing into greedy pockets of private school administrators, the AOA, and commercial entities that are strangling the profession with wire supplied by the profession itself.

Regardless of what anyone says I think we need more ODs like Jason K. Your field (Optometry) is saturating the country with eye doctor oversupply. It's bad for ALL of us, ODs, OMDs, Opticians, COMTs, COTs - everyone in eye care. SPEAK UP about it before we're ALL working for walmart making $20,000 /yr.

No one talks about compensation in medicine because it isn't considered cool or appropriate. (not necessarily rightly so..) Remember the historical feeling in medicine is that it isn't considered ok to talk about money. In optometry and pharmacy it is considered more appropriate because historically optometry and pharmacy have had a retail component which makes that conversation ok. We probably should talk about money in medicine. To quote our office manager when we said we would still take medicaid" Are you guys running a charity here? because if so we can apply for a 501c3 and get some grants from the government. Remember we live in a capitalist country..you have to pay your rent at the end of the day". It was like a parent talking to a child that had no concept of money but totally needed and true.

The stereotypes for chill ophtho residency are based on the fact that we are not on the floors with inpatients constantly. So as a result a medicine team may only see us once a week and think "those optho guys are chilling". Little do they realize that every service in the hospital has consulted the optho resident so the ophtho resident is seeing 15 consults in the hospital per day. The same thing happens in derm, radiology. People don't directly interact and the specialties are more isolated and so people assume they must be relaxing

Originally Posted by thiaeyemd

No one talks about compensation in medicine because it isn't considered cool or appropriate. (not necessarily rightly so..) Remember the historical feeling in medicine is that it isn't considered ok to talk about money. In optometry and pharmacy it is considered more appropriate because historically optometry and pharmacy have had a retail component which makes that conversation ok. We probably should talk about money in medicine. To quote our office manager when we said we would still take medicaid" Are you guys running a charity here? because if so we can apply for a 501c3 and get some grants from the government. Remember we live in a capitalist country..you have to pay your rent at the end of the day". It was like a parent talking to a child that had no concept of money but totally needed and true.

The stereotypes for chill ophtho residency are based on the fact that we are not on the floors with inpatients constantly. So as a result a medicine team may only see us once a week and think "those optho guys are chilling". Little do they realize that every service in the hospital has consulted the optho resident so the ophtho resident is seeing 15 consults in the hospital per day. The same thing happens in derm, radiology. People don't directly interact and the specialties are more isolated and so people assume they must be relaxing

I think we need to get over that hesitance to talk about compensation before everyone else decides for us how much we deserve to make.

And I think you're right about the stereotype, they don't see the packed clinic that you're working when they page you so they just think you must have been twiddling your thumbs for an hour before you made it to the floor to see their patient. It's not an easy residency, it's high patient load and surgical.

$97,500 to $99,999 846 0.74% 83.33%
$100,000 to $149,999 11,940 9.89% 84.07%
$150,000 to $199,999 3,595 3.17% 93.96%
$200,000 to $249,999 1,325 2.37% 97.13%
$250,000 and above 1,699 1.50% 98.50%

These are income percentiles in the US from wikipedia. If you think ODs are averaging almost 200K a year you are kidding yourself. The more realistic value is between 65K to 125K. Yes there are some outliers but these values represent the 10% to 90% for ODs. I don't know where people are getting "you will make more than 95% of the general population". This just promotes more myths in the specialty that Tippytoe and JasonK are trying to dispel.

In terms of hiring young docs, there are those ODs who view hiring a person as getting a potential partner and those that view it as just an income addition. If you are interested in just income addition then its all about getting the maximum, giving the minimum and then turning over to a new person once the contract is over. There will be some new docs who are too insecure, lazy, risk averse that they will take a bad deal for years. How the old OD views it will affect how they treat the young OD. The better analogy is if you go on a date with a girl with an intention of making them your girlfriend, you wouldn't want to slap them but if you are interested in just getting laid that night and never seeing them again, then why would it matter. Some people like to get slapped.

I interview between 15-20 people per slot. I am more interested in getting quality people than the lower priced person. The 20K difference is no big deal and to geta quality person is worth much more than that. A bad person will shoo people from your practice

Originally Posted by thiaeyemd

I think as an ophthalmologist what tippytoe and Jason K have to say are valid. I had a classmate in medical school who wanted to go into pediatrics. She matched and on match day she was talking about the mercedes she was going to buy when she became an attending. I thought to myself when she said that "Wierd..not sure if she fully researched this but whatever..." Well...her starting salary when she got a job at children's hospital was about 70K and she was like WTF..Several years later she essentially stopped practicing pediatrics and applied for and got a spot as an anesthesiology resident. If someone had just told her it probably wouldve avoided all the headache and heartache. The reality of the situation is that when students who are between 18 and 25 are choosing what career they are going to have for the rest of their lives, their decision is based on their perceptions and what others tell them. Now..for medicine sometimes that information could be completely wrong like "You can't do OB if you want to have a family" or "Ophthalmology residency is really chill". So what happens? People join their specialty and become frustrated and then end up not practicing or switching careers.

I know this wasn't the main point of your post, but you could easily buy an older model Mercedes or even lease a new one on 70K per year. You can have some items of the "high life" on these kinds of salaries--you just can't be that way with every part of your life.

Originally Posted by BeesKnees22

I know this wasn't the main point of your post, but you could easily buy an older model Mercedes or even lease a new one on 70K per year. You can have some items of the "high life" on these kinds of salaries--you just can't be that way with every part of your life.

...the only time leasing a vehicle makes financial sense is when you have already invested $150k-$200k into an education that earns you $70k.

Have some pride, man. For $70k a year you're putting yourself in the same earnings category as a college professor blithering about his interpretation of "Where the Sidewalk Ends"

Originally Posted by mydodger

I think we need to get over that hesitance to talk about compensation before everyone else decides for us how much we deserve to make..

You mean like how the Centers for Medicaid/Medicare and insurance companies have already done?

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

...the only time leasing a vehicle makes financial sense is when you have already invested $150k-$200k into an education that earns you $70k.

Have some pride, man. For $70k a year you're putting yourself in the same earnings category as a college professor blithering about his interpretation of "Where the Sidewalk Ends"

Leasing a car never makes financial sense...unless someone else is paying for it!

Originally Posted by namams

Leasing a car never makes financial sense...unless someone else is paying for it!

That's not true..I pay $200 a month for my car and get to give it back in 3 years. I don't put a lot of miles on it since everything is close to me. I get bored with cars easy and this makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Blondiechick919

That's not true..I pay $200 a month for my car and get to give it back in 3 years. I don't put a lot of miles on it since everything is close to me. I get bored with cars easy and this makes perfect sense.

Leasing fits your lifestyle, but it doesn't make financial sense.

Originally Posted by Blondiechick919

That's not true..I pay $200 a month for my car and get to give it back in 3 years. I don't put a lot of miles on it since everything is close to me. I get bored with cars easy and this makes perfect sense.

Wait a minute, you "get" to give it back? You're allowed to give a car that you've paid $7200 for, back to the dealer? You're thinking just like the dealership wants you to think!

Option A
Continuous 3 year lease terms....

3 year lease: $7200
3 year lease: $7200
3 year lease: $7200
TOTAL=$21,600


Option B
1 year old used car with low mileage (same make/model/year as above)....

Price from dealer if bought new: $14,000
Purchase price with balance of manufacturer's warranty: $8500 loan @ 3% for 48 months

TOTAL w/ Interest: $9,030


So, after 4 years with option A, you'll have paid just under $10,000 and you'll still have 2 more years left on a car you don't own. After 4 years with option B, you'll have paid about 9K and you'll own your car outright - no more car payments.

What's the difference? You don't get to drive a shiny new car every three years. It just about never makes sense to lease, from a financial perspective. It might make "life" sense, if you've got money to burn and you want the cool new car every couple of years, but that doesn't make it a financially sound decision. Some people find ways to write off their car lease, but that won't be you as an OD.

If you're going to be living on an OD's income, with student loans to pay, you're going to have to start making smart financial decisions right now. You probably won't be able to afford to blow money on a car lease simply because you want to drive a new car every couple of years. Orthodontists can pull that off, future ODs won't be doing that, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

Have some pride, man. For $70k a year you're putting yourself in the same earnings category as a college professor blithering about his interpretation of "Where the Sidewalk Ends"

Wow, that's not condescending towards another group of professionals at all. What pleasant people we have here on these forums.

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

Leasing fits your lifestyle, but it doesn't make financial sense.

Agree. We bought our car new for straight cash. They tried to upsell us with extended warranty and other crap-o-la but we just said No and you could just see the pissed off look on the salesman's face. I take good care of it and it is an investment (devestment depending how you look at it) for the next 10-15 years.

Originally Posted by Superblyme

Wow, that's not condescending towards another group of professionals at all. What pleasant people we have here on these forums.

Which group was I apparently getting my condescension on towards?

If it was poetry professors:

- I apologize if my post wasn't absurd enough to communicate the intended humor
- The statement was based on an actual professor; if you were there you'd still be making fun of them too. You should've been there man, should've been there. His beard was epic.
- I am one of the more pleasant people you'll come across on these boards, tour the med and dental boards sometime, you're in for a treat.

If it was ODs:

- Then shame on you for being happy with making $70k/year after being in school for 4 years at a cost of around $30k/year. You are worth far more than that.

Either way, the ignore button is your friend.

Originally Posted by mydodger

So why is it that on the OMD forums when we ask straightforwardly "What kind of compensation can we expect a minimum/average?" we end up getting repeatedly shot down? No one is forthcoming with this information and you obviously can't ask attendings because you would be immediately labeled as someone who was interested in the specialty for only financial reasons (which is fairly absurd seeing as everyone will say "it isn't much money"). Please be honest with medical students. It's insane when people think that the residency is so easy when in reality it's 1:3 call with a lot of busy nights and long days in clinic on top of an endless amount of reading and studying for which you really don't have time.

mydodger... didn't you get your compensation questions answered yet?

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

Which group was I apparently getting my condescension on towards?

If it was ODs:

- Then shame on you for being happy with making $70k/year after being in school for 4 years at a cost of around $30k/year. You are worth far more than that.

Either way, the ignore button is your friend.

Come on cgr you were one of us, remember? Don't throw us under the bus so quickly. lol

Originally Posted by q1we3

Come on cgr you were one of us, remember? Don't throw us under the bus so quickly. lol

I really don't see how anyone has been thrown under the bus here. I think, when you finish school, and you realize the truth in what he's saying, you'll be on board. Four years of undergrad (for a cool 60K to 100K+ in expenses), four more years of optometry school (for another 100-200K in expenses), maybe a year of residency (that'll cost you about 40K when you factor in lost income as well as interest that you can't pay because your income is in the low 30s.) Add all that up, and if you can't see that it's worth more than 70K per year (less about 12K per year for loan payments), then you might actually be thrilled with the income that future optometrists will enjoy.

It's true that there are TONS of Americans out there who would kill to make 70K, 58K, or even to just have a job, but the fact is, the great majority of those folks didn't drop hundreds of thousands of dollars into their education along with 8-10 years of study, and commit to paying back student loans for a good portion of their professional lives.

Originally Posted by BeesKnees22

I know this wasn't the main point of your post, but you could easily buy an older model Mercedes or even lease a new one on 70K per year. You can have some items of the "high life" on these kinds of salaries--you just can't be that way with every part of your life.

....spoken like a true optometry student

Originally Posted by Blondiechick919

That's not true..I pay $200 a month for my car and get to give it back in 3 years. I don't put a lot of miles on it since everything is close to me. I get bored with cars easy and this makes perfect sense.

lol... ....definitely spoken like a true optometry student (sorry i'm still laughing at that ''get'' to give it back comment.. rofl..)




From all of the reading I've done on the OD forums, to be an optometry student in this day and age you have to be able to willfully reject economic realities and substitute your own, false reality that will be proven so in T-minus-a few or so years..

I think micro/macroeconomics should be a required pre-req course for all pre-professional schools

Originally Posted by q1we3

Come on cgr you were one of us, remember? Don't throw us under the bus so quickly. lol

I'd be the last person to bash ODs.

I'm telling you guys that y'all need to reasonably recognize the worth of your abilities and knowledge and demand to be compensated properly.

Shoot, I still come on to the pre-opt threads and reply to those asking about how to study for the OAT and junk like that.

Originally Posted by thecgrblue

I'd be the last person to bash ODs.

I'm telling you guys that y'all need to reasonably recognize the worth of your abilities and knowledge and demand to be compensated properly.

Shoot, I still come on to the pre-opt threads and reply to those asking about how to study for the OAT and junk like that.

That is true, I have seen your posts. I was just kidding, by the way. I think quite commendable that you still here and help out pre-optometry students. Nothing but best wishes for your medical career.

Originally Posted by ineed2stpsmurfn

From all of the reading I've done on the OD forums, to be an optometry student in this day and age you have to be able to willfully reject economic realities and substitute your own, false reality that will be proven so in T-minus-a few or so years..

Unless you live at home, near the second cheapest OD school in the country and are willing to move to unsaturated areas after graduation

Originally Posted by Shnurek

Agree. We bought our car new for straight cash. They tried to upsell us with extended warranty and other crap-o-la but we just said No and you could just see the pissed off look on the salesman's face. I take good care of it and it is an investment (devestment depending how you look at it) for the next 10-15 years.

Ya my parents just bought a new car and didn't bother for the extended warranty. Gotta agree with everyone on here that leasing is a bad financial investment.