Vascular surgery fellowship application

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Originally Posted by joanofarc0907

What I heard about Baylor when I was there for gen surg interview (backup to the vascular residency match) The main people that made Houston good left when Methodist separated and joined Methodist. Hope that helps

THanks. How is Indiana?

Although I've always thought academics all the way, I can see how people with an initial interest end up changing their minds. It seems as though it would take A LOT of time and energy to produce research of enough worth to land an academic position, especially if its basic science. AND that academic position is going to be paying much less than private practice... Hmmm, maybe I should reconsider my career objectives .

I also think the way research is built into general surgery residency is a bit odd. You leave after your 2nd or 3rd year. By the time you get to fellowship your research is likely to be outdated, isn't it? At that point trying to resurrect a meaningful research career can't be easy...

I think that the classic career dichotomy of academics vs. private practice is out-dated, particularly in the case of a vascular surgery career. Sure, at a traditional, big-name University, there will be expectations that you have a few publications, but you no longer need to be running a lab or bringing in external funding. NIH funding is now so competitive that you essentially can't be funded consistently without a PhD-level lab experience, and a year or two in the lab during residency simply won't cut it. At many universities, the real pressure is now for the practitioner to be financially viable (i.e. collections > salary+overhead) not so much to produce publications. Departmental decisions are increasingly financially-driven and no one is going to pay for you to play around in the lab for three days a week unless you can cover 60% of your salary with grants--and that is extremely difficult. In contrast, a busy clinical vascular practice with significant endovascular and venous components can be a huge money-machine for the university--the financial angle simply cannot be ignored.

And the current vascular surgery practice pattern simply doesn't lend itself to a traditional academic career track. I can't think of a single younger academic vascular surgeon who does both credible, externally-funded basic science research and has a full-spectrum clinical practice (complex open and complex endo). I just don't think it's do-able. Participation in outcomes research and device trials is a different story, but that isn't what the old-time academics would call "basic research."

Originally Posted by Guile

HitGirl, thanks for sharing your insight and thoughts on the programs you visited. This is great stuff.

Originally Posted by maverick_pkg

yeah thanks Hitgirl.

Indiana vs. Baylor Houston vs. Methodist Houston. - will have to drop one. Recommendations?

No problemo! Didn't venture to any of the above programs. I've heard Indiana is OK. Kind of middle of the pack. Why they're considered "OK" is beyond my knowledge. I was tempted to go to an interview there but when I went searching for their vascular website it hadn't been updated since ~2008. I don't know why I was shocked and appalled by this but I ended up canceling my interview. Plus its not that easy to fly into their airport!

Originally Posted by ESCrawford

I think that the classic career dichotomy of academics vs. private practice is out-dated, particularly in the case of a vascular surgery career. Sure, at a traditional, big-name University, there will be expectations that you have a few publications, but you no longer need to be running a lab or bringing in external funding. NIH funding is now so competitive that you essentially can't be funded consistently without a PhD-level lab experience, and a year or two in the lab during residency simply won't cut it. At many universities, the real pressure is now for the practitioner to be financially viable (i.e. collections > salary+overhead) not so much to produce publications. Departmental decisions are increasingly financially-driven and no one is going to pay for you to play around in the lab for three days a week unless you can cover 60% of your salary with grants--and that is extremely difficult. In contrast, a busy clinical vascular practice with significant endovascular and venous components can be a huge money-machine for the university--the financial angle simply cannot be ignored.

And the current vascular surgery practice pattern simply doesn't lend itself to a traditional academic career track. I can't think of a single younger academic vascular surgeon who does both credible, externally-funded basic science research and has a full-spectrum clinical practice (complex open and complex endo). I just don't think it's do-able. Participation in outcomes research and device trials is a different story, but that isn't what the old-time academics would call "basic research."

Wow. Actually, everything you said makes so much sense now that I'm analyzing programs in retrospect. I've been wondering why programs haven't been delivering a lot of heavy hitting research -- they don't have time! Some programs have PhDs associated w/ them, which seems like a good idea if faculty have to be operating all day. And there are A TON of clinical trials, industry partnerships for device development, etc.

That sucks I was dreaming of becoming a vascular surgeon with my own lab... Anything is possible I guess. I really don't want to join the outcomes research pack either though. Its important research given the changing health care climate, but just doesn't light my fire..

Any program which has still not sent out invites?

How r people doing? Impressions...

Just bumping this back up to see how things turned out for people. Where is everyone going?

Originally Posted by Guile

Just bumping this back up to see how things turned out for people. Where is everyone going?

Well come on now. At least somebody must have some impressions to share from the interview trail.

congrats to those who matched today

In my humble and extremely biased opinion, the best programs are those where you get autonomy, a wide variety of open/endo cases, and support getting a job after(open/academic).

Someone that puts outstanding programs like EVMS and Albany 3rd tier is clearly mis-informed. Surgeons come out of these places knowing how to operate independently from day 1.

Again I will say that I'm biased but I will tout Vandy's credentials

2 RO-1 funded attendings (only program in the country like that)
95th percentile case volume (50-50 open and endo)
Significant complex case volume mix.
All but one attending will get started with a case and then go check email etc... when the fellow gets comforable with operating independently (in my opinion the most valuable part of my experience.) I'm not saying I'm doing ruptures alone in the middle of the night, but there is a safe level of autonomy that is largely decreasing throughout the country.

Lastly, the best people to ask about programs are those that just matched(as they just finished interviewing)

Again just my opinion

Originally Posted by maverick_pkg

what I have heard:

1st tier: UCSF, Mass gen, Pitt, Brigham, Northwestern, Wash U, Dartmouth, UPenn, UCLA

1st-2nd tier: Emory, Wisconsin, Wake Forest, Michigan, Oregon, UTSW, UFlorida, Columbia-cornell

2nd tier: UVA, Henry Ford, Utah, Baylor Houston, methodist houston, Mayo rochester, Stanford, Indiana, Maryland, CClinic, UT Houston

2nd-3rd tier: Vandy, Tufts, UChicago, Loyola, Hopkins, Texas A&M, UCLA harbor, Yale, Georgetown, BIDMC, U Mass, UNC, Duke, Jeffreson, U wash, Mayo AZ, Geisenger

3rd tier: Eastern Virginia, Minnesota,U S. Florida, UArkansas, UArizona, U S. Carolina, Temple, Albany

4th tier: Rest of the programs

what do you think about these tiers? Accurate.

I can think of at least one other program with two RO1 and 95th percentile volume.. Still impressive nonetheless

Hey everyone,

Anyone else throwing their hat in the ring this cycle for vascular/endovascular fellowship?

Looking forward to checking ERAS to see who is downloading applications early & hope to see interviews start flowing...

I'm applying as well. I sent out approximately 40 applications across the country

I sent out 35 or so. Would be curious to hear when you start hearing back from programs.

Good luck

Heard today from UConn. Interviews this year apparently two consectuvite dates; on Feb 27,28.

Wow. U all sent out 30-40 apps? I only did 19 total. Am I under shooting the amount??? I haven't heard back from any program I applied to yet.....

I am a DO applicant so I wanted to err on the side of over-applying. 19-20 sounds more reasonable for a any MD grad.

I ultimately hope to do enough interviews to be able to rank at least 12-15. Again, probably over-zealous but I would hate to not match & traditionally vascular hasn't been terribly competitive for matching somewhere.

As always, big names will always be competitive but....

I'm a DO applicant as well. I figured that I would receive some rejections being that I am from an AOA accredited program. There have been other applicants from my program that applied in recent years and received interviews at approximately half of the programs that they applied to. 40 programs was probably a little excessive.

Ok, I was thinking that vascular wasn't extremely competitive, but when I saw your numbers, had me thinking twice about applying at more programs.

You guys heard from any programs at all yet?

The only program I've heard anything from at all is UConn.

If it makes you feel any better, being DO's, we can only expect to even get considered for interviews at probably half the programs we applied to....

To bad this AOA/ACGME merger didn't happen a few years ago.........

Heard from Greenville, SC yesterday . Interviews offered in Jan., Feb., and March.

Invites from Carolinas (Charlotte) and East Carolina today. Carolinas offers 4 dates, ECU only offered 1.

I'm an MD applicant. I applied to 40 programs too.

So far I've heard from the following: OSU, MCW, University of Minnesota, and Greenville SC.

Talking it over with the present fellows at my program (one a DO and the other an MD) they both said the interviews started rolling in AFTER the holidays... which is the only thing keeping me from chewing my nails off.

How many interviews are you all trying to shoot for?

I'm hoping to go on 10-15 interviews.

Originally Posted by DTD

I'm hoping to go on 10-15 interviews.

This ^ ^ ^

Glad to hear the comment that most of the replies came after the holidays. Starting to incessantly check my phone every time I hear the email notification.

I can probably only manage 6 to 8 interviews

I'm hoping to get 10-15. But it will be tight and I'm certainly going to have to play the call schedule correctly

I'm hoping for invitations from about 10-15, but I'll only be able to interview at around 6-7 good to hear that interviews start rolling after the holidays.

hey everyone,

I am applying to vascular surgery fellowship I applied on december 16 i thought the match starts at that date I see you all applied earlier? did I apply late then?

I still did not hear about interviews...

What are the top tier places in vascular?

good luck for everyone

Programs could begin to download our applications on December 1st. A few programs that I applied to still haven't downloaded my application. I don't think you applied too late.

Thanks man. How can you tell if programs have downloaded the application?

Click on the ADTS tab

thanks DTD that was very helpful..

only baylor, tufts, u penn and wash u have not downloaded my application yet (or I just missed the boat i guess they did so very early)

still waiting to hear: no interviews, no rejections so far out of the 25 programs that I applied to

I hear interviews should start flowing after the holidays, good luck to all (and Merry Christmas to all

Baylor still hasn't downloaded mine either (as of 12/23---I promised a certain someone I'd stop obsessively checking that website till 12/30) so I'm not certain you really missed the boat.

Just heard from University of Wisconsin today. Interviews offered 2/25 and 3/19

good luck buddy! I heard they have an excellent vascular program.. I only applied east coast and south.. Whats the word on the top 10 programs these days in vascular I keep hearing different things some programs though remain there kind of like: Emory, Baylor, Mass General, Dartmouth... what do you guys think?

As this thread continues to get more posts, I have to say I am a little suprised to see that there are 6 of us SDN-ers that have all applied to vascular...usually there are not too many additional applicants than available positions...

Either SDN represents a disproportionate amount of those of us who are gluttons for punishment or is vascular going to be a more popular specialty this year?

Originally Posted by Krazykritter

As this thread continues to get more posts, I have to say I am a little suprised to see that there are 6 of us SDN-ers that have all applied to vascular...usually there are not too many additional applicants than available positions...

Either SDN represents a disproportionate amount of those of us who are gluttons for punishment or is vascular going to be a more popular specialty this year?

you are right I was gonna say the same thing!
I just heard from Eastern Virginia today they will send their invitations by jan 18 2013

From talking with my program's fellowship director this does look to be a competitive year---they've gotten 75 applicants when traditionally they get 40-50.

Plus, I think this is the first year we are really going to see the impact of the 0-5 programs reducing some of the fellowship spots :/ sucks to be a dinosaur but I wouldn't have given up my general surgery training to go straight into vascular.

what would you guys consider as top 10 program in vascular

I don't have a definitive list but I've heard highly of : Pittsburg, Hopkins, and Baylor (bias is as always expected)----anyone else have a ballpark idea?

Baylor I definitely heard highly of, hopkins i hear its great for open vascular experience including thoracic outlet and open AAA.. but not so much on endovascular, I dont know if Pittsburgh is top tier? theres also: U Penn, U of maryland, Mass General, Dartmouth, Emory, UT houston...

I dont know if anybody wanna add, but I think these are definitely top programs

Looks like Baylor sent out their invits: dates in February/March....Anyone heard from Mayo in Rochester?

I'm hoping the bulk of places start sending out invites later this week: my nailbeds could use a break.

On the plus side~ most the places that I've heard from seem to have a reasonable interview day timeline. Here's hoping I only have to blow one day of precious vacation time per interview instead of two.

How may days off are you all allowed to take from your program>? My PD is pretty lenient (aka rounding in the morning 'counts' as a day of work) but even his benevolence has limits.

Baylor still hasn't even downloaded my app yet.....

Most of the places still have a night before interview dinner/orientation from what I am seeing, so it looks unlikely that a single day will be enough (unless of course you could get a Noon flight out & still be able to round).

I think the standard answer is 20 vacation days/year....we also are alloted 5 CME days but our coordinator says that these are technically not supposed to be used for interviews. I think that's a load of BS since these are for fellowship (it would be different if you were being wined & dined by a hospital like the guys going into general).

Originally Posted by Krazykritter

Baylor still hasn't even downloaded my app yet.....

Most of the places still have a night before interview dinner/orientation from what I am seeing, so it looks unlikely that a single day will be enough (unless of course you could get a Noon flight out & still be able to round).).

I'm trying to set it up that I'm post call the day of the dinner (aka doesn't count as a day off/early leave) then the next day is a 'vacation' day for the interview. Fortunately, I'm on a service which has a plethora of fellows so my presence is not critical to patient care though I'm buying the intern coffee giftcards to make up for my guilt for the direction the $#*+ flows

Originally Posted by wolf13

What are the top tier places in vascular?

good luck for everyone

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=783197

Originally Posted by filter07

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=783197

Thanks for the bump very helpful.

Originally Posted by wolf13

what would you guys consider as top 10 program in vascular

not in any particular order... I'm guessing this is going to generate some controversies...

ucsf
northwestern
cleveland clinic
mgh
darthmouth
stanford?
ucla?
u of florida?
michigan?
university of washington?

Originally Posted by maverick_pkg

what I have heard:

1st tier: UCSF, Mass gen, Pitt, Brigham, Northwestern, Wash U, Dartmouth, UPenn, UCLA

1st-2nd tier: Emory, Wisconsin, Wake Forest, Michigan, Oregon, UTSW, UFlorida, Columbia-cornell

2nd tier: UVA, Henry Ford, Utah, Baylor Houston, methodist houston, Mayo rochester, Stanford, Indiana, Maryland, CClinic, UT Houston

2nd-3rd tier: Vandy, Tufts, UChicago, Loyola, Hopkins, Texas A&M, UCLA harbor, Yale, Georgetown, BIDMC, U Mass, UNC, Duke, Jeffreson, U wash, Mayo AZ, Geisenger

3rd tier: Eastern Virginia, Minnesota,U S. Florida, UArkansas, UArizona, U S. Carolina, Temple, Albany

4th tier: Rest of the programs

what do you think about these tiers? Accurate.

the vascular programs are a bit like the MLB teams. there are many big names with good tradition of winning but their qualities fluctuate every few years (when they lose key free agents and many actually rebuild). the fellows only stay for two years and interview a year ahead of time. it's important to keep that in mind while ranking the programs - things change.

the list is large accurate and IMHO:

1. emory has lost quite a few "free agents" in recent years. it would have been a top 10 lock but i'm not sure about it at this point. same is true for vanderbilt - a traditional winner but its faculty stability is in question (as of a few months ago). columbia/cornell program is also having a lot of changes as we speak. baylor is nowhere near the baylor 5 years ago. they divorced methodist but only got a car out of it while methodist kept the house, it seems...

2. on the other hand, wisconsin is definitely on its way up. it didn't match a fellow just a few years ago but now with matsumora and kent, it's becoming a major player. same can be said about university of florida. since dr. seeger's passing, they have rebuilt their program very well - they have three graduates from darthmouth; they certainly know what they're doing. chicago is on its way up with their expansion and hiring of ross milner.

3. mayo az is a relatively new program (so are minnesota and uc davis) so there is always special considerations paid to when it comes to new programs.

4. NYU remains a strong player with a good reputation. it probably belongs to the 2nd tier. LIJ is a busy program with many big cases but doesn't carry the same name. cleveland clinic probably belongs to the first tier given its prowess but i don't know their training experience for fellows. loyola lost ross milner and unless they make a major move, they'd be in a lower tier. u of arizona is a powerhouse for those that enjoy limb salvaging and i'm a fan of joe mills. they probably belong a tier higher. USC has a very strong clinical training program probably just as good as UCLA but doesn't have the academic recognition.

Having now started a fellowship and having gained the trail and more meeting experience would definitely revise the list. Also as mentioned above the MLB analogy is right on. Several programs have changed over the years

Revised one IMHO

[QUOTE=maverick_pkg;10583752

1st tier: UCSF, Mass gen, Pitt, Brigham, Northwestern, Wash U, Dartmouth, UPenn, Wisconsin, UFlorida, CClinic

1st-2nd tier: Michigan, Oregon, UTSW, Columbia-cornell, UCLA, Stanford

2nd tier: UVA, methodist houston, Mayo rochester, Indiana, Maryland, UT Houston, Emory, Wake forest, Albany, Eastern Virginia, Vandy, UChicago

2nd-3rd tier: Tufts, Hopkins, Texas A&M, UCLA harbor, Yale, Georgetown, BIDMC, U Mass, UNC, Duke, Jeffreson, U wash, Mayo AZ, Geisenger, NYU

3rd tier: Minnesota,U S. Florida, UArkansas, UArizona, U S. Carolina, Temple, Henry Ford, Utah, Baylor Houston, Loyola, U Alabama, UT Knoxville

4th tier: Rest of the programs

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by ChOiRDoG

not in any particular order... I'm guessing this is going to generate some controversies...

ucsf
northwestern
cleveland clinic
mgh
darthmouth
stanford?
ucla?
u of florida?
michigan?
university of washington?

This is fun. Top 10 List of fellowship training in no particular order IMHO.... (Where autonomy, volume/fellow, open/endo mix, variety of cases, repute are important)

Dartmouth
Northwestern
UCSF
Pitt
U Wisconsin
CClinic
Penn
Mass Gen
Wash U
U Florida