I just got of the phone with a recruiter at LECOM for the APAP program and she states effective immediately the MCAT requirement will be dropped. Thought some of you would like to know, if that's an option you had looked at.
LECOM remove mcat requirement
- Thread starter ck18
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Did you speak with Aroona? If not I would be circumspect but Aroona is our dedicated APAP coordinator and she would know. I haven't heard this but Dr Kauffman has been working on a formula to correlate PANCE/PANRE scores to substitute for MCAT. That would be a great boon for APAP!
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deleted6669
I'm calling BS until I see a change on their website....
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deleted6669
that would be sweet. what do you think a 700 Panre/99% = for MCAT?...
.....40+I think the original poster is likely pulling all of our legs on this one....
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I think so too? The sample size is too small for a correlation is it not?
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deleted6669
also pance/panre and mcat are not similar tests. one is a test of basic medical sciences and the others are clinical exams more like usmle/comlex step 2/3.
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its true.. currently the minimum percentile is set pretty high however, its in the works to decrease the PANCE/PANRE score to a more fair percentile. good luck all
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Hmmm...I guess I'll have to ask Dr K myself. Interesting. How high do you know it to be?
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deleted6669
IF I could do the program without having to take mcat based on my panre score and prior schooling alone I might have to consider this in 2 years after finishing my current doctorate program....
I would be in my mid 50s when done with residency but still worth considering...
I would be in my mid 50s when done with residency but still worth considering...
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deleted6669
why is there nothing about this on their website?
I would have already applied if this was the policy a few years ago. my pance and my panre are significantly > 95% and I got primary care and surgical honors on pance. so I'm sure I would make whatever their cutoff would be for these tests.
I have never taken ochem, however although I have done physics, doctorate level stats, and more bio than most bio majors, etc. (my wife the bio major had 8 upper division bio courses. I had 13 because I didn't have to take ochem/biochem/calculus as a medical anthro major).
my understanding from Dr. K a few years ago is that they will waive certain prereqs for certain candidates but that the MCAT was a hard and fast requirement.
no ochem and no mcat would make not applying a lot tougher....also I have no problem choosing a primary care slot for the program as I would do full scope rural fp if I became a physician. I also have no problem applying to only DO residencies. I would actually do so even given the option to apply to MD residencies.
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So let me get this right if you have all your pre-reqs done, have a bachelors, and are working as like a P.A and you want to do the bridge you don't have to take the mcat for lecom but just the other test?
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deleted6669
still a rumor...let's wait on official verification before we throw a party...
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Prima-
Will you do me a favor and inbox me. Need to ask a favor.
Will you do me a favor and inbox me. Need to ask a favor.
**********
11:14 AM (14 hours ago)
to me, Mark
Hi, ****. Attached is the explanation of our admissions process for your reference.
You may ignore reference to the MCAT requirement for the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway (APAP)…the decision to eliminate this entrance requirement was only made last week and I have not yet created an update to the attached file.
Any specific questions about the curriculum may be addressed to Dr. Mark Kauffman ([email protected]). As I mentioned on the telephone with you, he is the APAP director and highly responsive to potential applicants.
Thank you for your interest in osteopathic medicine and LECOM; please let me know if I may be of further assistance as you complete your physics coursework in preparation to apply during the 2014-15 cycle. Keep in mind that the earlier you apply, the better; we assume that all academic prerequisites will be satisfied by the end of the spring term of the year of matriculation (in your case, 2015).
Have a great day!
************
"Experience LECOM on the web" at www.lecom.edu
"Like us" at https://www.facebook.com/1LECOM
"Follow us" at https://www.twitter.com/1LECOM
It's a copy of the email I received after my phone conversation. Believe it or not I'm not a troll and trying to be nice. Take it or leave it. You're welcome to call and confirm for yourselves. Didn't mean to cause a stir. I was just trying to help out.
11:14 AM (14 hours ago)
to me, Mark
Hi, ****. Attached is the explanation of our admissions process for your reference.
You may ignore reference to the MCAT requirement for the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway (APAP)…the decision to eliminate this entrance requirement was only made last week and I have not yet created an update to the attached file.
Any specific questions about the curriculum may be addressed to Dr. Mark Kauffman ([email protected]). As I mentioned on the telephone with you, he is the APAP director and highly responsive to potential applicants.
Thank you for your interest in osteopathic medicine and LECOM; please let me know if I may be of further assistance as you complete your physics coursework in preparation to apply during the 2014-15 cycle. Keep in mind that the earlier you apply, the better; we assume that all academic prerequisites will be satisfied by the end of the spring term of the year of matriculation (in your case, 2015).
Have a great day!
************
"Experience LECOM on the web" at www.lecom.edu
"Like us" at https://www.facebook.com/1LECOM
"Follow us" at https://www.twitter.com/1LECOM
It's a copy of the email I received after my phone conversation. Believe it or not I'm not a troll and trying to be nice. Take it or leave it. You're welcome to call and confirm for yourselves. Didn't mean to cause a stir. I was just trying to help out.
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deleted6669
thanks, I will email Dr. K to discuss my situation.
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Prima-tried to send you a pm but your mailbox is full.
If one were not working at all how doable is the APAP MS1 PBL pathway with some semblance of maintaining a family life?
I will be done with the DHSc in 2 years. would be in my late 40s with teenagers who I have just uprooted and dragged across country and a wife who I pulled away from living in the same town with her elderly parents.
I would probably do the seton hall campus option.
if single, this would be a no brainer.
tough choice. I want to remain married and be around for my kids as a teenagers. if I can't do that it's not an option.
I currently have several jobs where I work either solo or with 1 doc alternating charts regardless of acuity. I make good money and am not worried about retirement.
it's really more about autonomy, scope of practice, and respect for me than anything else. as a doc I would do FP and try to do what cabin builder does but in the same place all the time; a small town where I am "it" or part of the only group in town covering er, icu, floor admits, clinic, low risk ob +/- c-sections, etc
I wish they had decided on the no mcat deal 4 years ago. I would have applied for the inaugural class with you. The DHSc is good, interests me, and advances my knowledge of global health. it will allow me to teach a bit and be better prepared for my international and disaster work but I don't ever see myself as full time faculty.
If one were not working at all how doable is the APAP MS1 PBL pathway with some semblance of maintaining a family life?
I will be done with the DHSc in 2 years. would be in my late 40s with teenagers who I have just uprooted and dragged across country and a wife who I pulled away from living in the same town with her elderly parents.
I would probably do the seton hall campus option.
if single, this would be a no brainer.
tough choice. I want to remain married and be around for my kids as a teenagers. if I can't do that it's not an option.
I currently have several jobs where I work either solo or with 1 doc alternating charts regardless of acuity. I make good money and am not worried about retirement.
it's really more about autonomy, scope of practice, and respect for me than anything else. as a doc I would do FP and try to do what cabin builder does but in the same place all the time; a small town where I am "it" or part of the only group in town covering er, icu, floor admits, clinic, low risk ob +/- c-sections, etc
I wish they had decided on the no mcat deal 4 years ago. I would have applied for the inaugural class with you. The DHSc is good, interests me, and advances my knowledge of global health. it will allow me to teach a bit and be better prepared for my international and disaster work but I don't ever see myself as full time faculty.
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Sorry guys know my inbox is full but can't seem to purge it on my phone--tried yesterday. I'm on my way to take COMLEX 2 but if I don't faint from exhaustion will try to sign on later today on my laptop.
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OK guys, sorry for the delay but my inbox is now purged of messages dating back to 2005
This is a very interesting development. My thoughts are the PANCE/PANRE score would need to be sufficiently high (550-600+) to substitute for MCAT. Not difficult IMO...my initial PANCE was 580s in 2000, PANRE #1 630ish in 2006 (with almost zero studying but 6 years in FM) then PANRE #2 800 after a year of med school. I truly believe that most of that almost 200-point jump is due to test-taking experience and not much due to new knowledge gained, but I certainly have learned a whole lot in med school that I never knew as a PA student or a practicing PA. Sure, lots of it is esoteric bull**** but I still like knowing it
Ask away. Finished COMLEX-2 CE today and unless I take USMLE step 2 I don't have to take another test until JANUARY! (except for a couple minor shelf exams, not too worried about those).
This is a very interesting development. My thoughts are the PANCE/PANRE score would need to be sufficiently high (550-600+) to substitute for MCAT. Not difficult IMO...my initial PANCE was 580s in 2000, PANRE #1 630ish in 2006 (with almost zero studying but 6 years in FM) then PANRE #2 800
after a year of med school. I truly believe that most of that almost 200-point jump is due to test-taking experience and not much due to new knowledge gained, but I certainly have learned a whole lot in med school that I never knew as a PA student or a practicing PA. Sure, lots of it is esoteric bull**** but I still like knowing it Ask away. Finished COMLEX-2 CE today and unless I take USMLE step 2 I don't have to take another test until JANUARY! (except for a couple minor shelf exams, not too worried about those).
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OK guys, sorry for the delay but my inbox is now purged of messages dating back to 2005
This is a very interesting development. My thoughts are the PANCE/PANRE score would need to be sufficiently high (550-600+) to substitute for MCAT. Not difficult IMO...my initial PANCE was 580s in 2000, PANRE #1 630ish in 2006 (with almost zero studying but 6 years in FM) then PANRE #2 800
Ask away. Finished COMLEX-2 CE today and unless I take USMLE step 2 I don't have to take another test until JANUARY! (except for a couple minor shelf exams, not too worried about those).
I'm quite curious to hear more about your education as a PA vs DO. You said you've learned more, but most of it is esoteric. Could you elaborate? Are there things you've learned in medical school that will change how you practice, or do you think your diagnoses and treatment protocols will be the same going forward as they would have been had you stayed a PA?
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I'm much more scientific in my approach to patient problems now. It's been a real pleasure to me to understand in depth the pathophysiology underlying common problems I thought I knew well: hypertension, diabetes, strep throat. I often explain that PAs learn the what and what to do in medicine, and some of the how and why. What makes medical school tedious is that we first learn the how and why, and then the what, and much later what to do. It's kinda interesting to already know the management of a condition and then be able to relate the management and diagnosis to the deeper physiologic and biochemical processes underlying the problem.
I have always been a reader. I was always highly motivated to understand my patient's illnesses and to provide them the most up-to-date treatment. The difference is that I am much more confident in my H&P skills (particularly history) because I know all those little details that might seem inconsequential but can flesh out a differential diagnosis without a bunch of expensive tests.
BTW, forget the idea that PAs work by "treatment protocols"--NPs do that, and not all NPs. The best learn differential diagnosis and pathophys. PAs learn a great deal of pathophys but at a more superficial level than MD/DOs. With time and strong mentoring, any PA or NP can and does become an outstanding clinician if he or she wishes to become so. I just wasn't willing to be a dependent provider for the rest of my career.
Lastly, I was skeptical about osteopathic programs, but I really do believe my diagnostic abilities are enhanced by all the manual medicine we are taught. It's truly gratifying to be able to fix multiple musculoskeletal problems in one brief treatment (the body is a unit...it's all related) and have the patient leave the office or ED much improved. Didn't learn that in PA school
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I'm much more scientific in my approach to patient problems now. It's been a real pleasure to me to understand in depth the pathophysiology underlying common problems I thought I knew well: hypertension, diabetes, strep throat. I often explain that PAs learn the what and what to do in medicine, and some of the how and why. What makes medical school tedious is that we first learn the how and why, and then the what, and much later what to do. It's kinda interesting to already know the management of a condition and then be able to relate the management and diagnosis to the deeper physiologic and biochemical processes underlying the problem.
I have always been a reader. I was always highly motivated to understand my patient's illnesses and to provide them the most up-to-date treatment. The difference is that I am much more confident in my H&P skills (particularly history) because I know all those little details that might seem inconsequential but can flesh out a differential diagnosis without a bunch of expensive tests.
BTW, forget the idea that PAs work by "treatment protocols"--NPs do that, and not all NPs. The best learn differential diagnosis and pathophys. PAs learn a great deal of pathophys but at a more superficial level than MD/DOs. With time and strong mentoring, any PA or NP can and does become an outstanding clinician if he or she wishes to become so. I just wasn't willing to be a dependent provider for the rest of my career.
Lastly, I was skeptical about osteopathic programs, but I really do believe my diagnostic abilities are enhanced by all the manual medicine we are taught. It's truly gratifying to be able to fix multiple musculoskeletal problems in one brief treatment (the body is a unit...it's all related) and have the patient leave the office or ED much improved. Didn't learn that in PA school
Very interesting. I don't know if you've read my other threads, but I'm an RN likely going on to become an NP because all of the PA/MD schools near me charge an arm and a leg for tuition. I'm frustrated by what looks like a very dumbed down curriculum for NPs, as I too like to read and actually enjoy learning about pathophys and how medications work vs. just following an "X symptom means Y treatment" education system. You believe NPs are taught treatment protocols and PAs are not?
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I've never heard of that. That's rather discouraging. Yet another chink the armor for the NP profession.
Sigh. Anyone else heard of this?
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Ok so I did some searching on these NP protocols, and I think what you are referring to is the practice protocols that NPs must submit in states that do not allow independent practice of NPs. One example is Florida, where I found an example practice protocol on the BON website:
http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/protocolsample.htm
It seems from reading this that the "protocols" are not really treatment plan examples, but rather an agreement by the NP and their supervising physician on what the NP can do. It simply lists the duties of the NP, as well as which conditions the NP is allowed to treat solo and which conditions require the NP to consult with the physician. It also provides for a list of medications the NP is allowed to prescribe under the physicians license...but even in the example from the Florida BON, they list "Any prescription medication which is not listed as a controlled substance and which is within the scope of training and knowledge base of the nurse practitioner." as those allowed. If this is the protocol you are referring to (and I think it is), I'm not as aghast as I was at first. Florida is known for being one of the most restrictive states for NP practice, and even in this protocol it doesn't require a flowsheet of exactly how the NP would treat every type of condition..
http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/protocolsample.htm
It seems from reading this that the "protocols" are not really treatment plan examples, but rather an agreement by the NP and their supervising physician on what the NP can do. It simply lists the duties of the NP, as well as which conditions the NP is allowed to treat solo and which conditions require the NP to consult with the physician. It also provides for a list of medications the NP is allowed to prescribe under the physicians license...but even in the example from the Florida BON, they list "Any prescription medication which is not listed as a controlled substance and which is within the scope of training and knowledge base of the nurse practitioner." as those allowed. If this is the protocol you are referring to (and I think it is), I'm not as aghast as I was at first. Florida is known for being one of the most restrictive states for NP practice, and even in this protocol it doesn't require a flowsheet of exactly how the NP would treat every type of condition..
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Yep. In my first state practicing they let go of an NP due to her not being able to take care of children due to protocols restricting acute care NP(I think it was acute care it's been a long time ago) to do so.
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Scope of practice protocols are different than practice protocols. There are comprehensive books of them. Not necessarily a bad thing, we all like lists (I'm a fan of Ferri's 5 Minute Clinical Consult when you just need a quick refresher) but to overly rely on algorithms is problematic when the undifferentiated patient presents uncommonly with a common problem or even with an UNcommon problem. That's when knowing detailed pathophys and being able to formulate a broad differential diagnosis is really key.
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Consider medical school. There are ways to get your debts paid off.
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Adult acute Care NPs cannot see children. That's not a proticil but rather a scope of practice no different than a pediatrician not seeing adults..
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RedCole: google "nurse practitioner protocols" and you will see what I mean. On Amazon alone there are several notebooks and binders for sale on this (family practice, women's health, peds NP etc.)
You are right about scope of practice. FNP has the broadest scope among NPs. PAs are trained as generalists so their scope of practice is defined by their work setting and their supervising physician's SOP.
Makati's advice is solid re: med school. Both he and I have been PAs for some time (me for a long time) before going back to med school. It's definitely a longer route and a more expensive way to do it but I don't have any regrets.
You are right about scope of practice. FNP has the broadest scope among NPs. PAs are trained as generalists so their scope of practice is defined by their work setting and their supervising physician's SOP.
Makati's advice is solid re: med school. Both he and I have been PAs for some time (me for a long time) before going back to med school. It's definitely a longer route and a more expensive way to do it but I don't have any regrets.
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Kind of except a peds doc could see adults (some treat up age 21) and what's to stop a peds doc to practice as a GP(all you need is tri/ one year residency and you can be issued a license but good luck on reimbursement and malpractice...) and you are correct it's a scope of practice issue.
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I meant to point this out. Just finishing my peds rotation and my doc follows 120+ adults with chronic illness and developmental disability in a local residential facility. When they're admitted to the hospital she and her team (PA, 2 NPs) manage them because they know them best. No SOP problems there.
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I did google it, the first Amazon result was for a textbook called NP Protocols, yet the description states that is for NPs and PAs. If anything, it is simply a book to guide any clinician toward probable diagnoses and treatment plans.
Anyway, as I mentioned before, I definitely believe NP education is lacking at most programs, but I don't think most NPs practice like a computer - put in a list of symptoms and they spit out a diagnosis. Like any healthcare provider, I believe NPs use clinical judgement combined with their experience and education to point in the right direction. Yes, PAs have a more sound scientific footing on which to stand, and I think for as a new graduate a PA is far ahead of an NP (unless the NP had been practicing as an RN for many years in an ICU or ED role, but that's for another post). The science-based courses and higher clinical hours of a PA program make that point rather obvious. Despite that, I feel an intelligent NP who applies him or herself fully to their career can practice at a level equal to or exceeding their fellow PA graduate. An excellent clinician is not made in school - it comes from years of patient interaction, reading diagnostics, and formulating treatment plans.
So, my main point: PA education is superior to NP education on average, but both programs create competent providers. While the learning curve may be a little more steep for the NP initially, they are fairly indistinguishable after 5-7 years in the same field. I don't think any experienced NP relies on pre-established protocols for how to treat their patients, and certainly I've never heard of a state board requiring such protocols as a barrier to practice. Looking through all of the google results for "Nurse practitioner protocols" showed me nothing of the sort, other than the physician-NP protocols giving an NP permission to practice in more restrictive states. In fact, from the Texas Coalition of Nurses in Advanced Practice:
"Protocols are required when an NP performs medical aspects of care. If an NP is not actually taking a verbal or telephone orders from a physician, it is inappropriate to use this as a method to document the source of authority for this order. Some NPs and physicians avoid writing protocols because they think they have to be very specific. However, this is not the case. "Protocols" in §221.1 (12) is defined as
Written authorization to provide medical aspects of patient care which are agreed upon and signed by the advanced practice nurse and the physician, reviewed and signed at least annually, and maintained in the practice setting of the advanced practice nurse. Protocols or other written authorization shall promote the exercise of professional judgment by the advanced practice nurse commensurate with his/her education and experience. Such protocols or other written authorization need not describe the exact steps that the advanced practice nurse must take with respect to each specific condition, disease, or symptom and may state types or categories of drugs which may be prescribed rather than just list specific drugs."
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deleted6669
I can confirm the MCAT requirement is gone per a personal email from the director.
I would need to take a single ochem course to be eligible as I have no ochem exposure but have all other standard prereqs done. online courses such as UNE are acceptable.
I would need to take a single ochem course to be eligible as I have no ochem exposure but have all other standard prereqs done. online courses such as UNE are acceptable.
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No worries emedpa. I've heard rumors that LECOM will be starting a 100 percent online program where you can work full time anywhere in the world and check in for online classes at night. You can also take your tests online, do your clinicals online, and BAM you got your medical degree!
I plan to sign up for this "LECOM flex program" so that I can take a few online tests without having to be on campus or take time out of my busy schedule to worry about in-person clinicals. I'm sure I can convince them to cut down the program to 9 months also.
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deleted6669
I know you hate ochem, but it's not that bad. I was terrible at general chemistry, but ochem for me was like wiping the slate clean. It's a different animal, and kind of fun. It's like puzzles with little rules. If ochem is the only thing holding you back, you might be surprised at how well you'd do. The key for me was just being disciplined enough to study every night in little bites.
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Couldn't agree more. Gen Chem made me want to puke every day. I did ochem 1 and 2 and enjoyed it and now I tutor it. Now the lab....sucks.
Per you Email EMed. Just wanted to say "Told ya so " . I am really considering the program. They even have the 3 yr primary care program as well. Either way 3 yrs and you're done. I spoke with him and he was very nice about trying to get me set up and in. My issue would be I live 6 hrs away and would have to cut down to 1 income and keep up 2 homes. Not sure how feasible that will be. I also dont want to drown in debt when I get out. I'm weighing my options carefully. Any ideas on funding beyond traditional loans?
" . I am really considering the program. They even have the 3 yr primary care program as well. Either way 3 yrs and you're done. I spoke with him and he was very nice about trying to get me set up and in. My issue would be I live 6 hrs away and would have to cut down to 1 income and keep up 2 homes. Not sure how feasible that will be. I also dont want to drown in debt when I get out. I'm weighing my options carefully. Any ideas on funding beyond traditional loans?
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deleted6669
State or federal loan repayment, public health service, military, etc
Public health service wouldn't bother me one bit. My only question would be how common is it to get funding from that? Military wont take me. Tried years ago when I was 18. Apparently asthma control meds is a no go. Thanks so much for the info.
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Try to find a rural hospital that wants to send someone to school. That is what I am doing. Long contract but great stability.
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Nope, that's the NP bridge option.....
Damnit Emed....I just had to wipe my rum & coke off my keyboard!
You would be "late" 40's? Are you older than me? That running thing must keep you young.
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I think the biggest factor in Ochem & Biochem is who teaches it. I took a "lower-level" Ochem course from a community college in Massachusetts. It was taught by a chemist who was actively working in a pharmaceutical laboratory and I learned a TON. This professor only taught the class because she LOVED teaching, and she was great at it.
But a "lower-level" OChem course wouldn't have been accepted by several programs I applied to, so I took an upper level one at a "State University" and it was an absolute joke. The professor didn't give a $hit about teaching, and the student teachers who ran the lab couldn't speak English.
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Damnit Emed....I just had to wipe my rum & coke off my keyboard!
You would be "late" 40's? Are you older than me? That running thing must keep you young.
If I am remembering correctly I think I am 3-4 yrs older than you. when we met for drinks at SEMPA last year I was the oldest one at the table by several years.
and yes, the running helps. I'm frequently mistaken for someone of a much younger age by patients.
I'm currently in my mid 40s.
A lot can hinge on having a supportive environment, whether it's small class size, a decent instructor, or an excellent study group. I'm not a study group kind of guy in general, but I took the ochem series while at a tight knit school where we all lived in close enough confines to get together each weeknight to go over stuff for at least an hour. The instructor (also from industry) had generous office hours that turned into study sessions. Even if it was just one other buddy I'd meet with, it was good to have instant input for when I was wrong about something rather than have to hunt it down myself and waste time. My lab partner benefitted from this more than me it seems, because he ended up with better marks than me, and I was he one explaining things to him most of the time while his wife made us nachos and picked up pizza for us.
Hello all,
I am considering applying to the APAP at LECOM in the next year or so. My question regards my attractiveness as a candidate and potential for acceptance, any information would be greatly appreciated! I had some academic improprieties when first in college (98-00) with a pathetic GPA in the 2.5 range fueled mostly by apathy and laziness. I have since went to paramedic school followed by PA school (PANCE 0f 680 and recent PANRE of 716) and earned associates, bachelors, and masters degrees with GPAs of 3.6, 3.7, and 3.8. I've also been practicing in EM for six years and have a leadership position in my group with heavy responsibilities in education for both the PAs/NPs and docs, and sit on a couple committees at my hospital. I'm sure I could generate a couple of excellent letters of recommendation to help pad things as well. I'm not sure how selective the school is in terms of earlier academic misgivings... In other words, would my not taking college seriously as a teenager preclude my getting accepted now despite all I've done since then? Again, any advice you all could give would be tremendously helpful. Thanks!