Hpsp Faq

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Hi all, Thank you all for taking the time to place your comments on here they are incredibly insightful, particularly for those considering applying for an HPSP scholarship. I have some specific questions that I would appreciate any and all comments/suggestions/feedback on any or all of my questions:

A brief background: I am primarily interested in the NAVY, as I would like to do GMO tour and save residency till after (primarily because I am interested in Neurology and residencies in Neurology do not tend to be as good in the armed services, as they shouldn’t be). I graduated from school in 2001 (so I’m already on the “older side”) and have been doing research at a hospital in Boston (I’ve already been accepted to med school).

1) It appears that individual satisfaction with one’s time during payback depends on: placement/location/proximity to family and length of time in service. To what extent can you control this? (e.g. applying for placement at a certain base/hospital?)

1a) I have heard of people stationed in the same spot for a majority of their 4-year payback (Dive Docs, flight surgeons), are their others or is this an exception?

2) What is the % of people deployed in wartime? Semi-wartime (Iraq, now)? To what extent does it depend on where/with who you are stationed?

3) What is the % of people of get their first choice of base/hospital? This application process depends on? med school scores? Rec letters? Time in service?

4) If one is deployed over sees, to what extent does the NAVY support moving a young family with you? Is it financially/logistically possible?

5) As a GMO is it more common to split your payback time between hospitals or in one spot? Do you have any say in this?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
-reg

Reg, I would start a new thread with this question and maybe you'll get some answers. You could also try PMing some of the more prolific Navy posters on the board. There's already been some threads about this, so I would recommend doing a search, reading about some old answers, getting some good contacts, and go from there. I could give you my opinion, but because I know little about the Navy, I can't really help you with your questions.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Pediatron47

BS.

A first year medical student reservist here at UCSD was recently deployed to Iraq.

Simply updating his/her MAS code as a reservist would have prevented that. It pays to listen when admin talks.

Hey there - I hate to break the anonymity bubble, but I would really like to speak with someone about this:

I'm really close to signing for the Air Force HPSP, and I have some questions about COT and the "45-day summer active duty." As I'm signing within the next month, I'd like to chat with someone who's gone through it and could talk a little about it. The Luke Ballard page is great -- I'd just like a more recent perspective. Feel free to PM me or e-mail, and I'd be happy to call on your schedule. Any info would help.

Hi, i know you probably all have gone through this a million times but i'm still not understanding exacly what is the time commitment after med shcool graduation. I understand that there is an 8 year commitement not 4 years as i previously thought. My questions specifically are:

Does the military residency (assuming I match to one) count toward active service?

what exactly happens during the 4 year non-active reserves duty- do they only call you when they need you or do i have to work in a military hospital until my 8 years are over?

I woulld really appreciate any info, thanks. also, if any of you are going to NYCOM my screen name on AIM is ohai1282, please contact me.

Originally Posted by DO2B802

Hi, i know you probably all have gone through this a million times but i'm still not understanding exacly what is the time commitment after med shcool graduation. I understand that there is an 8 year commitement not 4 years as i previously thought. My questions specifically are:

Does the military residency (assuming I match to one) count toward active service?

what exactly happens during the 4 year non-active reserves duty- do they only call you when they need you or do i have to work in a military hospital until my 8 years are over?

I woulld really appreciate any info, thanks. also, if any of you are going to NYCOM my screen name on AIM is ohai1282, please contact me.

Although your time in military residency will be an active duty years, counting towards your retirement, THEY will not count as a part of your obligation. Thus obligation years = post residency years. However if your residency years are longer than your years of scholarship then you are required to serve exactly equal to your years trained in the military residency.

Also the military can call you when they need you like in time of war during 4 year non-active reserves duty. During this time you can work in a civilian hospital.

Sir,
this is a great FAQ--thank you for maintaining it! I humbly submit the following for inclusion:

1. What are the benefits?

Performance Tickets from the USO: orchestral, theatrical, opera, ballet, etc. Here in Boston, we're constantly offerred Blue Man Group tickets, and annual tickets to the July 4th dress rehearsal (Boston Pops 1812 Overture on the Charles River Esplanade, last year had Mormon Tabernacle Choir, Liann Rimes (sp?), et al.).

Space Available travel. Free flights on military or DoD-chartered aircraft. Active duty + retired eligible for CONUS/OCONUS, with dependents. During HPSP/med school, CONUS only, no dependents. Most overseas ("OCONUS") options available from Baltimore-Washington Int'l, MD; Dover AFB, DE; Travis AFB, CA.

4. What will I make as a physician in the military?

While I understand you used average figures for your calculations, you might indicate ranges for some of the items. E.g.:

- Medical Education Loans Saved * 4 years: $154,000 Sounds a little low to me: our school (admittedly on the high side) is estimated at $70,000 per year, * 4 years ~= $280,000

- Military Pay: BAH of $10k (~$833/mo) sounds low. For example, Barksdale AFB, LA (low end?), zip code 71110, O-3 is $995 without dependents, $1313 with. Hanscom AFB, MA (high end?), zip code 01731, O-3 is $1857 without dependents, $2215 with. May I suggest a range of $1000-$2000 per month, $12k-$24k per year, is more accurate? (Source: dfas.mil/dtic.mil)

- ISP: $13.5k sounds low. Only 6 of 23 specialties on the pay table have ISP in this range ($14k or less). The others are in the $15k-$36k range. Perhaps a higher estimate is warranted? (Source: dfas.mil, pay table eff. 1 Jan 2005)

- Military Pay Post-Committment: "looses" should be "loses"

5. What will I make as a resident?
Again, the BAH estimate might be too low.

7. Where will I do residencies/rotations?
Might you mention the "deferred" (i.e. civilian) residency option here?

Also, USAF sites are available at:
http://ci.afit.edu/cimj/adt_locations.asp


Thanks for maintaining the FAQ!

-BlueSkies

Originally Posted by blueSkies

Performance Tickets from the USO: orchestral, theatrical, opera, ballet, etc. Here in Boston, we're constantly offerred Blue Man Group tickets, and annual tickets to the July 4th dress rehearsal (Boston Pops 1812 Overture on the Charles River Esplanade, last year had Mormon Tabernacle Choir, Liann Rimes (sp?), et al.).

-BlueSkies

Hi Blue Skies,

We're also in Boston, but don't receive this benefit... My fiance is currently finishing his first year of medical school on a Navy HPSP scholarship. When should we begin to receive free tickets to local performances?

Thanks!

Who am I, and why am I here? A candidate for V.P of the U.S. once began his nomination speech with this question.

I am a 52 year old Intern in Family Practice. I graduated Med School in '83. The reason I went to Med School was to become a Neurosurgeon. I was in the top 20% or so in my class, hard to tell exactly with Pass Fail. I got an 85% on my Part One. I started Neurosurgery at MCP and when the program lost accreditation I transferred to Northwestern as a PGY-5 in 1988. I was dismmissed (fired) in 1990.

I owed the Army for HPSP so I was sent to Panama, I had 10 years of deferred IRR so I made Major in months and was put in charge of the Fort Clayton Health Clinic until I returned to CONUS in '94 to be OIC of the ER at Ft Eustis. When I got out I was offered a job in Primary Care and as I had children going to college soon and was in no hurry to return to the joys of Residency after my previous experience I took the job.

After 10 years of Army employment as a Civil Servant and my "little one" had just graduated from college I decided continuing to play doctor without Board Eligibility was becoming increasingly untenable I appled to a local Family Practice Residency that as luck would have it is probably one of the best.

To answer the question from my perspective of 15 years of experience in military medicine, it really depends on what you want to be when you grow up. If you want to do Internal Medicine, or OB, or even Gen Surg I suppose HPSP might be worth looking at.

If you want to do something that is harder to get and has fewer openings, like Neurosurgery, ENT, Ophtho, or whatever it probably isn't smart unless your dad is a general or a senator or if you are a Service School grad (West Point or Annapolis, etc.)

The military has plenty of training for you to train on AD in Peds or FP, etc. which you want to do because you get paid better and it evens out the "less pay" as a staff physician. Also if you get screwed like I did, you have plenty of options to finish your training in another program. In Neurosurgery the Consultant to the Army Surgeon General knew the jerk that screwed me and before I could do anything I was in a foreign country trying to save my carreer (unsuccessfully).

So this is something you might want to consider. Sure the Recrutier told me as a Freshman, "There won't be any trouble getting Neurosurgery Training in the Army, we have a residency at Walter Reed." I was a little dismayed to find out when I went there for a 4th yr rotation that of the 5 residents (one per year) 4 were West Point Grads and the other's dad was a general. So unless you have serious pull, forget training in the military in one of those low numbers, hard to get residencies.

Once you finish training in the specialty of your choice what will you do? Well, if you train in Gen. Surgery you might be dismayed to find out that you get sent to a hospital with no ICU, no "step down", no this or that and you are limited to doing the occaisional appendectomy and lots of colonoscopies. Makes you wonder why you spent years learning to do a Whipple, doesn't it? If you do Ortho you may find that you get sent to a hospital that is a Community Hospital and the military has a Reg. that "no spine surgery will be performed at commuinty hospitals, only Med Cens." I suppose that is O.K. if you don't care for spine anyway, and I suppose nowdays Orthpods have to do fellowships to do Spine anyway, but you get my drift.

As other posters have pointed out, the most aggressive docs tend to bail at first opportunity. There is a strange phenomenon at work in the military. At ranks above Major, the nurses are the best paid in the U.S. so Army nurses tend to be very competetive, very aggressive, and supercharged. The Army Docs above Major tend to be some of the least aggressive Docs in America. It creates a strange situation. The hospital commander is in charge but is constantly giving in to the Director of Nursing who usually pounds that table and in other ways plays hardball. So anytime it comes to nurses vs. docs, guess who wins. You will be doing things that nurses in civilian life do because of this. Several years ago Congress recognized this little flaw and changed the rules so now anyone can be a hosital commander. They seem to like physical therapists, so who knows what that is going to turn into.

If you really want to be a "medicine manager" you might seriously consider military medicine, because as you progress in rank as a senior Major or LTC you will be given more and more management responsibilities and less and less patient care. If this is what you want, certainly go for it. When you retire as an 0-6 you are pretty well positioned to manage a clinic or small hospital I am sure. Who knows, you may even be one of the handful who "get a star" and can do 30 yrs. and retire for keeps.

I hope I haven't come across as too cynical, I have really tried to be objective. If anyone wants to b-mail me you can but I have pretty much laid it out here. If others have different opinions, realize they have different perspectives. My military experience was not in Med Cens, but from what I understand from folks I BS'd with over the years they are perhaps a notch above VAs. I do have experience with some 6 different VAs over the years.

Our military does need people and we are a nation at war. If you really feel you should contribute (which to my way of thinking everyone who is able should, my family has had someone in uniform in almost every conflict right back to the Revolution) join up after you finish school and residency and make the military come to your terms. You may find them falling all over themselves if you have no obligation, and if getting a slot you don't want means you walk you probably won't ever be offered anything you don't want.

Originally Posted by wastoute

join up after you finish school and residency and make the military come to your terms. You may find them falling all over themselves if you have no obligation, and if getting a slot you don't want means you walk you probably won't ever be offered anything you don't want.

Outstanding piece of advice!!!!

Originally Posted by militarymd

Outstanding piece of advice!!!!

outstanding agreement on some outstanding advice.

you can still serve your country,still get the bills paid, and please believe me when I say that if you wait, you will at least be able to call some of the shots (and if you can't call some of the shots nowadays, you will likely regret your decision).

Anyone out there (preferably Navy) on active duty have an example of what the contingent letter of resignation looks like. I have checked out the MILSPERMAN but was looking for a draft someone else used.

Originally Posted by Navypsych

Anyone out there (preferably Navy) on active duty have an example of what the contingent letter of resignation looks like. I have checked out the MILSPERMAN but was looking for a draft someone else used.

Sorry, I couldn't find it in my files.....it is really simple....just a memo.

Originally Posted by wastoute

join up after you finish school and residency and make the military come to your terms. You may find them falling all over themselves if you have no obligation, and if getting a slot you don't want means you walk you probably won't ever be offered anything you don't want.

This is exactly what my plan is. Since med school seems like a far off place right now, I'm not overly concerned. However when the time comes that's my plan exactly. I would need to do 10 years to retire but the more docs I meet who get out with 14+ the less inclined I am to go back in.

BTW, great post!

Originally Posted by Homunculus

(courtesy Texdrake)

FAQ by Lt. Ellenbecker
...

7. Where will I do residencies/rotations? [/B]

http://www.mods.army.mil/MedicalEducation/
...

__________________

I'm having trouble getting that link to work - can someone doublecheck that for me? I'm currently in Canada, so would that be causing trouble trying to get to that website?

Originally Posted by DieselDoctor

I'm having trouble getting that link to work - can someone doublecheck that for me? I'm currently in Canada, so would that be causing trouble trying to get to that website?

I checked it. It works.

Does anyone know if there is a limit on how much tuition HPSP covers?

Are there many DO's in these military medical programs? Also, is a DO at any disadvantage when applying to the more competitive military residencies? OK, one last question, is the USMLE required or is the COMLEX sufficient?
Thank you all very much~

Originally Posted by gobeavers

Are there many DO's in these military medical programs? Also, is a DO at any disadvantage when applying to the more competitive military residencies? OK, one last question, is the USMLE required or is the COMLEX sufficient?
Thank you all very much~

Lots of DO's now, I'd say a third of my OBC class seemed like it was DO (probably grossly exaggerated, but there were still crap loads of us).

Competitiveness - my military classmates at my school matched into: Radiology X 2, Derm, Peds, IM, FP, Neuro, ER X 2 , Surgery, and a few more i can't remember. Take it for what you will.

And you take the COMLEX, USMLE not needed. You're free to take the USMLE, you just won't be reimbursed for it.

I've got a couple of questions...

When I graduate, will I be an 03 with 4 years of service, or an 03 with 0 years of service?

If I have to go overseas for a GMO tour, will my spouse be able to fly Space-A to visit?


Thanks!

I'm pretty sure that time in medical school on the scholarship doesn't count toward time in grade. So you'll be O-3 with 0 years. Not sure about Space A for overseas...

Originally Posted by turkish

I've got a couple of questions...

When I graduate, will I be an 03 with 4 years of service, or an 03 with 0 years of service?

If I have to go overseas for a GMO tour, will my spouse be able to fly Space-A to visit?


Thanks!

Depends if you are stationed overseas vs deployed overseas. Also with being stationed overseas you can get accompanied orders and unaccompanied.

As far as your utilization of space A. As soon as you are AD you can use it, although I checked into it once and it was a big waste of time and effort. Its hard to get where you want to go when you want to get there.

Originally Posted by turkish

I've got a couple of questions...

When I graduate, will I be an 03 with 4 years of service, or an 03 with 0 years of service?

If I have to go overseas for a GMO tour, will my spouse be able to fly Space-A to visit?


Thanks!

Time in school doesn't count for anything, as far as service credit goes. That rule was implemented in 1981.

While in school you're an 0-1. On graduation day you become an 0-3. If you have no prior service at all, then you're considered an "0-3 under 2 years" for pay purposes. The pay chart gives little step raises, within the same rank, for increased years of service.

If, say, you had served 10 years enlisted before going to college/med school, you'd then be an 0-3 over 10 on the pay chart upon graduating med school.
That can amount to several hundred dollars difference per month as compared to a new 0-3 under 2.

The step raises are independent of rank - they are based strictly on how many continuing years of service you have. Consider them longevity pay.

In another post I got the impression someone was mixing apples and oranges in their mind. The "0-3 under 2; 0-3 over 2, etc" refer to paygrade and how many step raises you're entitled to on the pay chart and is a continuous flow throughout your career. On the other hand, time-in-grade refers strictly to how many years you've served at your current rank. TIG goes back to zero each time you get promoted.

Most officer ranks require 5-7 years TIG before being eligible for consideration for promotion.

The exception for HPSP student on TIG is for folks with prior service as a commissioned officer. You get 50% TIG credit for time already served at a particular rank.

My case: I'm already a Nurse Corps O-4, with seven years as an O-3 (promotions are slower in the reserves). Take my seven years served as an O-3 multiplied by 50%. On graduation day, when I become a physician 0-3, I will already have 3.5 years TIG credit applied towards my promotion eligibility to O-4, meaning I"ll be "in the zone" for promotion 3.5 years sooner than my HPSP peers with no prior commissioned service as an O-3.

Originally Posted by trinityalumnus

If, say, you had served 10 years enlisted before going to college/med school, you'd then be an 0-3 over 10 on the pay chart upon graduating med school. That can amount to several hundred dollars difference per month as compared to a new 0-3 under 2.

Actually, it makes a difference of over $1,600 per month. If you have prior service, even just a couple years, you get a lot more cash during residency.

Originally Posted by Mirror Form

Actually, it makes a difference of over $1,600 per month. If you have prior service, even just a couple years, you get a lot more cash during residency.

One significant reason to go service for residency if you already have prior service, besides retirement time accrual. If you come in after med school, the benefit isn't as great.

Also, prior enlisted time for commissioned officers' pay is assessed for longevity under a separate O "E" scale.

I'm having trouble getting to the bottom of this:

I know the four years in med school do not count towards the 20 needed for retirement. But if you serve 20 years active duty after med school, then retire, do you get the four years of med school added to your service credit, thus giving you retirement pay at 24 years rate versus 20 years?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by trinityalumnus

I'm having trouble getting to the bottom of this:

I know the four years in med school do not count towards the 20 needed for retirement. But if you serve 20 years active duty after med school, then retire, do you get the four years of med school added to your service credit, thus giving you retirement pay at 24 years rate versus 20 years?

Thanks.

only if you go USUHS

That's not what they told us at OBC. They said if we do the full 20 and had a 4 year scholarship, our medical school time counts, giving us 24 once we hit the 20 year mark.

Originally Posted by delicatefade

That's not what they told us at OBC. They said if we do the full 20 and had a 4 year scholarship, our medical school time counts, giving us 24 once we hit the 20 year mark.

There's a bridge in San Franciso that I want to sell you....cheap.....and you make the money back real quick collecting the tolls.

PM me real soon....or someone else will get this great deal.

Originally Posted by delicatefade

That's not what they told us at OBC. They said if we do the full 20 and had a 4 year scholarship, our medical school time counts, giving us 24 once we hit the 20 year mark.

for whatever it's worth, i've heard this too, although i can't remember the source.

Originally Posted by trinityalumnus

I'm having trouble getting to the bottom of this:

I know the four years in med school do not count towards the 20 needed for retirement. But if you serve 20 years active duty after med school, then retire, do you get the four years of med school added to your service credit, thus giving you retirement pay at 24 years rate versus 20 years?

Thanks.

If the recruiter is telling you this, he/she is LYING! You only get credit for the four years of med school if you go to USUHS. So, once and for all, let's put that rumor out of our misery. Tell your recruiter to lay off the Kool Aid.

Originally Posted by Heeed!

If the recruiter is telling you this, he/she is LYING! You only get credit for the four years of med school if you go to USUHS. So, once and for all, let's put that rumor out of our misery. Tell your recruiter to lay off the Kool Aid.

There are two entirely different kinds of retirement you need to be aware of when it comes to talking about which service counts for what: active-duty retirement and reserve retirement.


The medical school time you spent in the HPSP may count as reserve time toward a reserve retirement, and it may be used as reserve time in calculating your active-duty retirement pay, but it does not count toward satisfying your minimum 20-year active-duty service obligation for an active-duty retirement.

If you get out after completing your payback and then enter the active reserves and complete enough "good" years to complete the reserve retirement minimums, those years do count--toward your total reserve year count (as do your active-duty years, too). But the reserve retirement is a whole different type of benefit, and a lot less money, than an active duty retirement, which is what the recruiter is not clarifying enough for you. The difference in benefits is huge.

When do you start making MASP? After residency?

Originally Posted by orbitsurgMD

There are two entirely different kinds of retirement you need to be aware of when it comes to talking about which service counts for what: active-duty retirement and reserve retirement.

AND, to make matters worse, you lose the eligibility to use those four years of medical student time towards your reserve retirement if you EVER augment.
(ie. HPSP graduates all started life as USNR folks, even when we went on active duty. Used to be people who were going to stay in for careers would "Augment" request to become regular USN. As of May 2006, everyone is being forced to Augment. Goodbye to 4 years of med school counting for jack.)

Originally Posted by turkish

When do you start making MASP? After residency?

You will get ASP anytime you are not in a training status. GMO, BCP at a teaching hospital, BCPserving in an operational billet, FS, or DMO.

Another question, thanks for the help previously.

Is there any financial benefit to getting your medical license? (i.e. specialty pay of some sort?)

I understand you have to be a US citizen or a green card holder to apply for this stipend? Studying in the US with some visa won't do?

Originally Posted by Dave09

I understand you have to be a US citizen or a green card holder to apply for this stipend? Studying in the US with some visa won't do?

Must be a citizen. You will be given a commision in the US Armed Forces and to obtain that, you have to be a full fledged citizen. Green Cards need not apply cuz we can't even look at you.

I'm about two months away from taking the MCAT and applyin to USUHS (top choice) as well as a few others with expectation of an Army HPSP. Possible drawbacks of attending USUHS aside, the active duty pay one receives while attending USUHS is significantly more than what the HPSP stipend would provide per month.

I'd say $1200 HARDLY covers living expenses and rent for a month in a majority of US cities...so how are some of you HPSPer's making up the difference to pay for your living expenses? Are you still able to take out small loans from your university to assist with these expenses?

I'm asking all this because although USUHS is my top choice, if I happen to blow away the MCAT and get into Johns Hopkins or Duke...I would probably have a moment of hesitation before immediately going the USUHS route.

I hope some of you will comment with specific experiences. Thank you.

Originally Posted by LumberJack

I'm about two months away from taking the MCAT and applyin to USUHS (top choice) as well as a few others with expectation of an Army HPSP. Possible drawbacks of attending USUHS aside, the active duty pay one receives while attending USUHS is significantly more than what the HPSP stipend would provide per month.

I'd say $1200 HARDLY covers living expenses and rent for a month in a majority of US cities...so how are some of you HPSPer's making up the difference to pay for your living expenses? Are you still able to take out small loans from your university to assist with these expenses?

I'm asking all this because although USUHS is my top choice, if I happen to blow away the MCAT and get into Johns Hopkins or Duke...I would probably have a moment of hesitation before immediately going the USUHS route.

I hope some of you will comment with specific experiences. Thank you.

depending on your school, you can apply for stafford loans. I can receive an additional $22000/year, subsidized and unsubsidized, if I want. That's enough to pay for two cars, rent, living expenses, and keeping up a fiancee and wedding in December
Correct me if I am wrong, but if you want to go to hopkins or duke are you interested in research? I heard that the military IS NOT the way to go for many people, especially if you want to do research.
I reiterate over and over again, loans will not be an issue if you become a doctor.

Originally Posted by HumptyDumptyMil

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you want to go to hopkins or duke are you interested in research? I heard that the military IS NOT the way to go for many people, especially if you want to do research.

I am fairly interested in the prospect of doing research in emerging infections and biodefense, and it does seem the military is a good place to do this sort of work. Maybe you could comment on that as well.

I was actually being completely hypothetical with the mention of Duke and Hopkins. My other choices will more than likely be places a little closer to home (UAB, S. Alabama, Tulane, Emory, Baylor). I was more interested in the financial implications of HPSP during medical school. And to that end, you answered my question perfectly...thanks!

USUHS, you get full ensign pay, plus DC BAH. The BAH alone probably comes close to the HPSP stipend. The ensign pay is essentially double HPSP pay. The catch, much longer payback. And if you have read more than two threads on this board, that is the majority complaint, that they can't get out and were screwed over by the system. If you go USUHS, you are doubling the time in which to develop these feelings.

I interviewed my first year at USUHS and ranked it as my top choice, and was wait listed, personally I like to believe because I was a late applicant. But I wasn't scared by the commitment, as I am a prior and need another 13 to retire. I declined my interview the second year as I had already been accepted elsewhere, didn't want to take time off my job, and knew that I hadn't done a lot clinically/volunteer wise to help me out. My feelings are USUHS is a great program, but you had better have some volunteer experience, as they seem to put a lot of weight on that. Being an outsider, I would weigh the commitment though. There are some added perks beside the pay.

To put this thread to rest, regardless of wheter you augment or not, and you have to retire, the four years at USUHS are ghost years until you hit twenty, then they magically appear in your retirement. The way it works for retirement is this. Do twenty years, get 50% of BASE pay. Thus go to the pay tables, look at what an 0-5/20 makes and divide by half. Bonuses, BAH, BAS are factored out. For every extra year you do, you get an extra 2.5%, up until 30 years, where you max out at 75%. So every officer retiree is at par with one another despite designator. This means a Dr. makes the same as a sub officer, surface officer, aviator, SEAL. The pension is a good deal, normalizing it is a bad deal.

Base your choice of medical school after interviewing, which do you think is strongest? If necessary, take the debt. I'm lucky, I have a working wife who can make up for the meager stipend. Don't know if she'll be here in two years, but that's a different story. I in no way feel bad about not pursuing USUHS. There are a lot of good and bads about living in DC, and I'd rather be here. I love my class, and I love the focus on practicing medicine. However, in another three years, the best view I will have of Memphis will be in the rear view mirror.

Megadon, thanks for taking the time to type up that very helpful information. One quick question before I proceed: What kind of volunteer/clinical experience did it seem like USUHS expected out of a competitive applicant? Are we talking several shadowing/ER volunteer experiences...or more along the lines of general community service?

I think I'll just have to feel things out, like you said, when I do my interviews. I don't have a working wife's income to supplement the HPSP stipend, but I'm not entirely opposed to taking out a small loan to make ends meet if I decide USUHS is a bad choice (assuming I get accepted). I'm probably incredibly naiive about what a military career would involve, but right now I'm really attracted to the IDEA of serving the country while performing a very important job as a physician. My feelings could very well change in the next few years, especially if a wife and kids ever enter the picture. At some point, the harsh realities of financial security and career stability may crush my idealism. I'm sure this is a common tale.

My mentor, a retired Army doc, painted a much different picture of military medicine compared to what I've seen on this forum. Things have apparently changed a lot in the 10 years since he retired. If everyone on this forum spoke about their careers the way he spoke about his, I think USUHS would be a much easier commitment to make.

In conclusion: Thanks to everyone for providing such valuable advice. I've been a member of the forum a very short while, but I feel like I've learned a lot.

Originally Posted by LumberJack

I'm about two months away from taking the MCAT and applyin to USUHS (top choice) as well as a few others with expectation of an Army HPSP. Possible drawbacks of attending USUHS aside, the active duty pay one receives while attending USUHS is significantly more than what the HPSP stipend would provide per month.

I'd say $1200 HARDLY covers living expenses and rent for a month in a majority of US cities...so how are some of you HPSPer's making up the difference to pay for your living expenses? Are you still able to take out small loans from your university to assist with these expenses?

I'm asking all this because although USUHS is my top choice, if I happen to blow away the MCAT and get into Johns Hopkins or Duke...I would probably have a moment of hesitation before immediately going the USUHS route.

I hope some of you will comment with specific experiences. Thank you.

My "small loans" for living expenses in LA amounted to over $110k.

But I wish I was like my classmates that have $250k.

Yeah, the apparent condition military medicine is in right now certainly makes a tough decision for anyone, like myself, who is weighing the benefits and risks of attending USUHS or accepting an HPSP offer to another school.

Let's say I do Army HPSP. I receive a meager stipend of $1200 a month, and supplement that with a Stafford loan. Over four years, let's just say that comes to $80,000 in debt. In one scenario, I graduate, go through residency, practice in the Army for the required 4 years, and decide I hate military medicine. No problem...I get out and get a civilian job paying $300,000 or more a year and my loans are gone! In the other scenario, I end up LIKING military medicine a lot and want a career in the Army. Now I'm making much less money and having to pay off that debt on a military doctor's salary.

Attending USUHS eliminates the necessity for that "cost of living" Stafford loan because I'd receive ~$3800 a month as an active duty 2LT (including BAH, etc.) It would be GREAT if I actually fell in love with military medicine afterwards, but if I don't I'm locked into at least a 7-year commitment, and I'd basically be a fool not to stay in for 20 at that point just for the pension benefits.

I am sure many of you will simply recommend to abandon HPSP and USUHS as options altogether. At this point, that's not really an option for me. If I didn't pursue a service career to some degree, I would feel like I've sold myself short. Yes, medicine is my intended career, but the fact that I want to be a soldier just as much as a doctor tells me that I need to pursue one of these mil med options. I'm only 23 years old, and I have no wife or children to provide for. I really hate that I'm discovering so much negative sentiment for military medicine right now; it's certainly a different picture from what people of last generation's military medicine have told me about.

This post isn't exactly a question for anyone to respond to, but these are the current thoughts of an epidemiology graduate student who hears a strong calling to both the military and to medicine. Mock my greenhorn attitude about the whole thing if you must, but I appreciate any advice or responses you guys may have.

Where would you be living that you took out 20K extra in loans from what the military provides? I think, once the difference is calculated for me, I can only take out about 4-5K a year.
It's a tough decision to mak, Lumberjack. However, realize that the opinions posted on this board are pretty one-sided. I shadowed numerous military physicians before applying to med school, and they all loved their jobs. And, while the whole GMO thing is pretty unpopular beforehand, a lot of people ended up loving their tour.
Good luck.

Originally Posted by LumberJack

I am sure many of you will simply recommend to abandon HPSP and USUHS as options altogether. At this point, that's not really an option for me. If I didn't pursue a service career to some degree, I would feel like I've sold myself short. Yes, medicine is my intended career, but the fact that I want to be a soldier just as much as a doctor tells me that I need to pursue one of these mil med options. I'm only 23 years old, and I have no wife or children to provide for. I really hate that I'm discovering so much negative sentiment for military medicine right now; it's certainly a different picture from what people of last generation's military medicine have told me about.

This post isn't exactly a question for anyone to respond to, but these are the current thoughts of an epidemiology graduate student who hears a strong calling to both the military and to medicine. Mock my greenhorn attitude about the whole thing if you must, but I appreciate any advice or responses you guys may have.

I'm sure many of these doctors here were in your shoes: idealistic, 23, without anything holding you down.

I'll also bet a lot of them realize what a sacrifice they're asked to make when they're 27, their friends are all pursuing exciting fields mostly of their choice, and you're facing a GMO year (or worse, in Podunk, Montana), entering a broken system that offers substandard training options and below market pay when boarded.

Why is FAP not a good choice? You can go through school with the OPTION of getting into the military when you're good and goddamn ready. If you still feel idealistic urges, you can at least enter knowing with certainty what the state of military medicine is. I am consistently stunned that people want to mortgage their future 11 (!!!!) years down the road when they've nary had so much as a full time job before.

[quote=West Side;5054398]I'm sure many of these doctors here were in your shoes: idealistic, 23, without anything holding you down.

I'll also bet a lot of them realize what a sacrifice they're asked to make when they're 27, their friends are all pursuing exciting fields mostly of their choice, and you're facing a GMO year (or worse, in Podunk, Montana), entering a broken system that offers substandard training options and below market pay when boarded.
quote]

What is your background/evidence for these statements?

Many military physicians were nontraditional students and did not start med school at 23.

Substandard is a very strong word. Most IM and IM subspecialty programs may not be on par with top notch civilian programs but are better than many community-based programs.

As for pay, it totally depends on specialty and location for whether someone's pay is "below market." Our rheumatologist took a pay cut upon entering private practice.

I've never seen any data suggesting that civilians are more or less likely to get the specialty "mostly of their choice."

Finally, GMO tours are almost never one year, they are 2-3 years.

There is great information on here about the current state of military medicine and I probably would not have chosen to join in the current environment, but these statements are over the top.

Quick question: I'm an MSI and supposed to attend OBLC this summer. If I can't go for medical reasons, do I still get paid my regular academic year stipend, or do I get no stipend?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by StarboardMD

Quick question: I'm an MSI and supposed to attend OBLC this summer. If I can't go for medical reasons, do I still get paid my regular academic year stipend, or do I get no stipend?

Thanks!

Your stipend would continue, its not really 10.5 months, its just they pay you it whenever you aren't on active duty.

However, I was planning on doing this after MSI and the Navy automatically signed me up for school orders, so make sure that doesn't happen.