An addition to the 34 reasons not to join, being guinea pigs in military medicine

[Galo]

Dear Medical Reporter:

This is to invite you to a telephone media roundtable with Dr. William Winkenwerder, Jr., Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs, on Monday, October 16, from 2:30 to 3:30 p.m. est. At that time, Dr. Winkenwerder will discuss the department's resumption of the mandatory Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program (AVIP) for military personnel, emergency-essential DoD civilians and contractors, based on geographic areas or roles. DoD anthrax immunizations will be administered consistent with the FDA-licensed dose schedule and current standards for medical practice.

To get on this conference call, dial 1 866 866-2244. The password will be 9120436.

If you have questions in advance of the roundtable, my contact information is below.



Terry D. Jones, APR
Office of Communications
Assistant Secretary of Defense (Health Affairs)
5111 Leesburg Pike
Skyline 5, Suite 601
Falls Church, VA 22041
(703) 681-1698
Fax: (703) 681-3656
DoD Health Affairs Web site: http://www.ha.osd.mil





This may not be an issue many of you have kept up with. However, with a family history of autoimmune diseases in my family, and with me having one already, I did a lot of research into the anthrax vaccine before I ever considered taking it. Though it was never offered to me, I had made it quite clear to all that I would not be taking an experimental vaccine. Its wierd that the DoD has decided to start an experimental vaccine where there is no threat. A vaccine that was deemed by a federal judge to be experimental, and stopped the mandatory program for close to a year. But through the back channels that the goverment has, the FDA suddenly said it was OK for inhalational anthrax, something that the vaccine was never licensed for.

Too much to get into, but if interested there is a book called Vaccine A, by Gary Matsumoto, that details the history of this vaccine from its inception.

Clearly yet another reason not to be in the military. You do not have the legal right to refuse a substance that is illegal, and you may be part of a large experiment.

Let the disbelief began.

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by Galo

Clearly yet another reason not to be in the military. You do not have the legal right to refuse a substance that is illegal, and you may be part of a large experiment.

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/DOCKETS/doc...-04-purged.pdf

--
R

[pgg]

Originally Posted by Galo

You do not have the legal right to refuse a substance that is illegal, and you may be part of a large experiment.

The anthrax vaccine is, at present, optional.

Characterizing the vaccine as illegal is misleading and incorrect. It has been FDA approved for cutaneous anthrax for a very long time. While it hasn't been proven effective at preventing inhalational anthrax, this does not magically make receiving the vaccine for indication A any more dangerous than receiving it for indication B.

At most, you could argue that the benefits may not outweigh the risks, given that benefits vs inhalational exposures have not been established. This same risk/benefit argument has been presented (unsuccessfully) to fight receiving the smallpox vaccine too. The smallpox vaccine is more likely to cause serious health problems for the recipient or family members and the risk of a smallpox attack appears far lower than the risk of an anthrax attack ... yet the courts have upheld the military's decision to require smallpox vaccination for all servicemembers without documented contraindications.

Citing the anthrax immunization program as a reason not to join the military is weak.


So, just curious here, are you shifting your web crusade's focus from merely dissuading people from joining the military medical corps, to the stance that people should not join the military in any capacity, because someone may give them orders based on risk/benefit assessments they may not agree with?

("No Sergeant, I will not go into that building full of insurgents because it's too risky. I disagree with your assessment of my personal risk vs the benefit to our mission. I ain't goin' in.")

[Galo]

I think its just another reason someone needs to know before joining. I am here primarily to disuade medical professionals, but people can read what they want into it. As seen by the recent demotion/separation of the navy lawyer who succesfully foiled Bush's tribunals, stupidity and bad decisions seem to be made in probably all fields where a professional is involved in the middle of military protocol.

The vaccine has never been tested for inhalational anthrax, and it manufacturing process has been changed many times all without FDA notification or approval. One of the main stockholders in Bioport was an high ranking general. There has been proven the use of squalene, an illegal adjuvant, being used during the first Gulf war. The people who sued the military finally had their day in court, and the vaccine was deemed illegal by a federal judge, and despite FDA OK, to use it for inhalational anthrax, the debate if far from over.

So yeah, taking an "illegal" vaccine that may harm your body when there is no clear threat, is stupid.

Much more on the production and manufacturing of the vast majority of bioweapons can be found in a book by Ken Alibek, the head of Russia's Biopreparat, their underground division that manufactured the most deadly of bioweapons. The anthrax he manufacture, and presumably the one you'd want to use as a weapon, has absolutely no vaccine or antibiotic that would do anything against it, as it was bioengineered for that purpose.

[DropkickMurphy]

"No Sergeant, I will not go into that building full of insurgents because it's too risky. I disagree with your assessment of my personal risk vs the benefit to our mission. I ain't goin' in."

That's when you just flatten the building (and surrounding area) with an airstrike. Problem solved.....

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by pgg

("No Sergeant, I will not go into that building full of insurgents because it's too risky. I disagree with your assessment of my personal risk vs the benefit to our mission. I ain't goin' in.")

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

---------------------------
Physicians are not infantrymen.

Doctors are not trained killers.

I call your straw man, and raise you the lives lost
due to the improper management of military medicine.

Your call.

--
R

[7by11thenout]

Originally Posted by DropkickMurphy

That's when you just flatten the building (and surrounding area) with an airstrike. Problem solved.....

Back when we joined that would have been the answer. Out job in the AIr Force was "to kill people and blow things up"...

Now our job in the Air Force and Military in general is to Keep peace, nation build and police the world... We are no longer allowed to do what we do best. We are expected to do things we are not designed or trained to do...

If a marine invades a building where insurgents are shooting at him and some civilians die he gets prosecuted for murder.... So I suppose that if we blew up the building and surrounding area we would also be prosecuted...

I guess this is another reason not to join the military... Get shot at and if you defend yourself you may just have to go to jail..........

Sorry for opening a can of worms but...

[doctorJP]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

Back when we joined that would have been the answer. Out job in the AIr Force was "to kill people and blow things up"...

Now our job in the Air Force and Military in general is to Keep peace, nation build and police the world... We are no longer allowed to do what we do best. We are expected to do things we are not designed or trained to do...

If a marine invades a building where insurgents are shooting at him and some civilians die he gets prosecuted for murder.... So I suppose that if we blew up the building and surrounding area we would also be prosecuted...

I guess this is another reason not to join the military... Get shot at and if you defend yourself you may just have to go to jail..........

Sorry for opening a can of worms but...

Ya you could easily open a can with those naive ignorant comments. Police the world, spare me the BS. That is a great scenario you gave there about marines entering a building; the version I heard was some American soldiers were fired upon and a few were killed, so some lunatic marines went around and started killing people, somewhere in the 20's I believe.

Wouldn't it be great if you could just do what you were trained to do, seek and destroy things and move on to the next target. Hell, we may as well go back to 1939 and do it all over again, old school style. Do these thoughts go through everybodys head? I refuse to believe it.

[VolatileNavyDoc]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

If a marine invades a building where insurgents are shooting at him and some civilians die he gets prosecuted for murder.... So I suppose that if we blew up the building and surrounding area we would also be prosecuted...

As far as I know this doesn't happen. You have to look a man in the eye when you shoot him to get prosecuted. It's a good point though, and one that I think a lot people don't consider.

[VolatileNavyDoc]

Originally Posted by doctorJP

Ya you could easily open a can with those naive ignorant comments. Police the world, spare me the BS. That is a great scenario you gave there about marines entering a building; the version I heard was some American soldiers were fired upon and a few were killed, so some lunatic marines went around and started killing people, somewhere in the 20's I believe.

GRRRREAT. And the version I heard was that it wasn't really Marines, but an alien force from Pluto ticked off b/c they were no longer a planet and couldn't even get a loan from the Grameen Bank to help fund their cause.

It's great for everyone to throw stones at the U.S. military medical infrastructure and vent about their frustrations and injustices. It actually may persuade some poor, unsuspecting college senior that military medicine is not all that the recruiter told him it would be.

It's also OK to talk about the the danger of vaccines, and how all formula fed babies are going to be retarded, and how U.S. patients have to go to Mexico to be treated for brain tumors, etc....

Stick to what you know, and wax poetically, and use as many big words as you can find in the Funk and Wagnall. It makes you look smart, and those unsuspecting college students might think you know what you're talking about.

I doubt you have ever been on the ground with a battalion of Marines. So please spare us the conjecture of a "naive and ignorant" medical (student?) about what happens on the ground in war. Some general guidelines: "I heard from a friend who really knew this dude..." is not really an acceptable source of information. Neither is the news and neither am I. So unless you were with 3/1 in Haditha, stick to making general comments, b/c you really have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Now back to the Anthrax vaccine... All I can really add is that I think a lot of people would be surprised if they read the incident reports on any of the vaccines. (I hate to post without contributing to the OP).

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity" - Martin Luther King

"To act without clear understanding, to form habits without investigation, to follow a path all one's life without knowing where it really leads - such is the behavior of the multitude" - Mencius

aza anta trid an ttklm ba:ia alti anta la t"rf or?. mn fvlk ic?b ali mkan aor. (figure that one out... I'm sure there's someone here who can.)

(those are my token "smart guy" contributions)

[pgg]

Originally Posted by MedicalCorpse

Physicians are not infantrymen.

Doctors are not trained killers.

I call your straw man, and raise you the lives lost
due to the improper management of military medicine.

Your call.

I knew I was going to regret clicking the "view post" link next to your name. In any case, didn't you *plonk* me (and then have the smug condescending arrogance to think you needed to define the term with a link to wikipedia)? I'm halfway tempted to go back to all of the threads I've posted in lately to see what other asinine followups you've left.

This is not an issue of blindly following orders, though I can see where my over-the-top example might have led you to think I wanted to take the discussion in that direction.

The point, which you have so clearly missed, is that in the military, other people perform risk/benefit analysis without your input. They routinely make decisions for you, often based on information that is not available to you. It has always been this way; it always will be that way; it must always be that way.

Physicians are not infantrymen or trained killers, but physicians serving in uniform are (rightly) subject to a chain of command.

One is, of course, obligated to refuse unlawful orders and respectfully question orders thought to be unwise. In the specific case of the anthrax immunization program, this has clearly been done - very publicly and formally, in fact, to the point that the courts have taken the unprecedented step of making the anthrax vaccine optional. (It may be mandatory in the future, but only after a civilian court has reviewed the facts and made a decision.)

Once again, you're reduced to posting simply anti-military rhetoric. Which is fine, if your position is that volunteering for service in the US armed forces, in any capacity, is unwise. But it is still hard to tell how much of your hatred of military medicine is simply borne of your hatred of the military in general.

I'll de-killfile you for the duration of this thread, should you choose to respond.

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by pgg

I knew I was going to regret clicking the "view post" link next to your name.

Likewise.

This is not an issue of blindly following orders, though I can see where my over-the-top example might have led you to think I wanted to take the discussion in that direction.

When one gives "over-the-top" examples, one should not be surprised when one is called on them. I did not explicitly reject the remainder of your post. Note the part I quoted and responded to.

The point, which you have so clearly missed, is that in the military, other people perform risk/benefit analysis without your input. They routinely make decisions for you, often based on information that is not available to you. It has always been this way; it always will be that way; it must always be that way.

The point I have made throughout my website, my posts, and my military career is this: Following orders when it comes to taking buildings, doing pushups, or wearing uniforms is one thing. Blindly following orders regarding medical care of patients from people who are not board-certified physicians in your medical specialty which violate accepted standards of medical care, thus endangering my patient's life, is a crime against the Hippocratic oath, medical ethics, and, in my opinion, a crime against humanity. The UCMJ does not trump biomedical ethics. Period. I strove, while in uniform, to do what was right for my patients, as I saw it, in my medical judgment; to do any less would have been a disservice to my patients, the Air Force, and the Constitution.

Physicians are not infantrymen or trained killers, but physicians serving in uniform are (rightly) subject to a chain of command.

We keep going round and round. Chain of command with regard to the officer hat, yes. Chain of command with regard to the doctor hat: sometimes. No one can order me to do something I consider to be malpractice, whether that be performing anesthesia while "supervising" CRNAs simultaneously, committing anesthesia on a child when the facility is unable to care for the child perioperatively, or instructing line officers on how to poison pizzas. No one.

One is, of course, obligated to refuse unlawful orders and respectfully question orders thought to be unwise.

This is the crux of the issue. I was taught in 1981 in ROTC that the Chain of Command would protect officers who refused illegal orders. In 2006, it is not true (and has not been since, oh, around 2001, for some coincidental political reason). In fact, the Air Force Core Value of Shut the F*** Up "outranks" all other ethical considerations.

Once again, you're reduced to posting simply anti-military rhetoric. Which is fine, if your position is that volunteering for service in the US armed forces, in any capacity, is unwise. But it is still hard to tell how much of your hatred of military medicine is simply borne of your hatred of the military in general.

I loved the military. I thought the military paid umpteen hundreds of thousands of dollars to educate me to be a board-certified consultant anesthesiologist specialist physician so that I could do the right thing for my patients. I thought the military would respect the opinion of a senior major (later LtCol) who spoke out for patient safety. Imagine then my horror at my betrayal by a military system I had grown up in since age 17, when my life and career were destroyed because I naively thought the Air Force cared more about "doing the right thing" than "shutting up and following orders".

Integrity...um...anyone? Excellence in all we...um...? My problem was, I never dreamed that the military, and especially the USAF, would promulgate Core Values, then turn around and execute anyone who tried, in all honesty and with the best of intentions, to follow them.

The existential trauma inflicted upon me when the system I loved refused to realize that only those who cared spoke out, while those who did not care about doing the absolutely, objectively right thing shut up, made rank and gave reprimands, resulted in (diagnosed) PTSD. If I "hated' the military, would I have been wasting my precious time and money all these months by posting here, buying ads on SDN, and running my website with my own money? Or would I have done what 95% of all physicians do at ETS: throw out their uniforms, try to forget about their military medical system frustrations, and move on, without trying to do anything to fix the system from without (given that fixing it from within is impossible, due to the inevitable LORs, LOAs, and LOCs given out to anyone who refuses to toe the line laid down by [increasingly non-physician] administrators)?

I hate what the military system has done to the formerly proud institution of military medicine. I hate that our brave, injured troops get shoddy care by an inadequate number of inadequately experienced non-physicians, when they deserve 100 times more. I hate that our honored retirees have been thrown to the lions of TRICARE, rather than being able to receive the MTF care they were promised. That's what I hate.

I'll de-killfile you for the duration of this thread, should you choose to respond.

Ditto. I find myself hitting the brick wall of your basic incomprehension of my position too much. I don't think it's a productive use of my time. But I cannot let these groundless accusations go ("hatred of the military in general" my @ss).

Nemo Me Impune Lacessit, Y'all.

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by NavMtnDoc

It's great for everyone to throw stones at the U.S. military medical infrastructure and vent about their frustrations and injustices. It actually may persuade some poor, unsuspecting college senior that military medicine is not all that the recruiter told him it would be.

It actually may persuade someone, somewhere to start fixing the infrastructure and injustices. That's what I hope. Telling potential medical students the truth about the situation "on the ground" in military medicine, stripped of propagandistic, hyper-patriotic lies and distortions, is a secondary objective, to me, at least.

Stick to what you know, and wax poetically, and use as many big words as you can find in the Funk and Wagnall.

Um, it's wax poetic. And the definite article before "Funk" is not necessary. Sorry.

I doubt you have ever been on the ground with a battalion of Marines. So please spare us the conjecture of a "naive and ignorant" medical (student?) about what happens on the ground in war. Some general guidelines: "I heard from a friend who really knew this dude..." is not really an acceptable source of information. Neither is the news and neither am I. So unless you were with 3/1 in Haditha, stick to making general comments, b/c you really have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

7by11 is not a naive and ignorant anything, let alone a medical student. If you would read her posts, you would realize that she's a board-certified anesthesiologist. She is also a personal acquaintance of mine, so both you and JP would be well advised to keep the name-calling to yourselves.

aza anta trid an ttklm ba:ia alti anta la t"rf or?. mn fvlk ic?b ali mkan aor. (figure that one out... I'm sure there's someone here who can.)

Aza anta and ttklm are from Arabic--probably coincidence. The text seems to be a substitution cipher (given the use of :, ", and ? to represent letters; unlikely to be a Romanization of Arabic).

(those are my token "smart guy" contributions)

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

[7by11thenout]

Originally Posted by doctorJP

Ya you could easily open a can with those naive ignorant comments. Police the world, spare me the BS. That is a great scenario you gave there about marines entering a building; the version I heard was some American soldiers were fired upon and a few were killed, so some lunatic marines went around and started killing people, somewhere in the 20's I believe.

Wouldn't it be great if you could just do what you were trained to do, seek and destroy things and move on to the next target. Hell, we may as well go back to 1939 and do it all over again, old school style. Do these thoughts go through everybodys head? I refuse to believe it.

Ok well Call me ignorant if you want to I really dont care you do not know me or my beliefs. I am very pro american Pro Bush Pro Military and I have been associated with the Military both US Army and US Air Force since 1991. My point on that post was that we are trained to search and destroy - nation builiding is a new concept for us and it is a POLITICAL thing - the military is not a diplomatic institution. As for your quote above I think the "Lunatic" marines deserve the benefit of the doubt that they are over there fighting for for both The USA and IRAQI citizens which is Innocent until PROVEN guilty. IF they are guilty hang them I dont care, but I dod not like the way the CONGRESS or MEDIA treated them as if GUILTY - did you know that before they were even arrested they were detained and in 23hr lock down. NOw we have bleeding heart librals (sorry my LWF) who want to give AMERICAN rights to non military enemy combatants who do not follow the Geneva conventions so I think the least we could do is offer that same set of value to our troops...... THe fact that a congress man got on TV before an arrest was made and called them GUILTY is what I was talking about - How are they ever supose to get a fair trial with that kind of POLITICAL RHETORIC - Actually it might be grounds to throw out the whole case and if they are guilty they could get off...


I am not naive about us being asked to police the world. THat is what we do. The USA gives more money to the world for charity and humanitarian things, we go more places to act as police... I dont necessarily think it is a bad thing for us to do this especially if it keeps ALL OF US SAFER - but If you ask us to police something and then tie our hands with what we can do to defend ourselves then that is wrong.

AS A MEDICAL OFFICER I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CARRY MY WEAPON TO DEFEND MY SELF AND MY PATIENTS.. RIGHT NOW IN A WAR ZONE OUR WEAPONS ARE TAKEN FROM US UPON ARRIVAL IN THEATER. However at some military bases US forces are being forced to sleep with (in the same quarters ) with ARMED IRaqi forces (as we know by what happened to out two marines not allof the Iraqi forces are pro Iraqi some are infiltrators).


AS FAR AS YOUR SECOND PARAGRAPH I REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING - I never said that was all I wanted us to do. I would love to debate all of you but since just after one post you called me ignorant and naive I guess you really dont want to have conversation and want to resort to name calling. I have been called worse and my skin is thicker so keep trying

[7by11thenout]

Rob - using his big brain again... I have no idea what the following means:


aza anta trid an ttklm ba:ia alti anta la t"rf or?. mn fvlk ic?b ali mkan aor. (figure that one out... I'm sure there's someone here who can.)


BUT I have one which I think is pertinant to 34 reasons why not to join the military as well as become a guinnea pig

MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN

IF you know what it means you know where its from and I hope that the high up in military medicine do heed the warning and fix the problems before it is too late like it was for the person who received that message. Only my wish is secular and I want to fix the problems here for our Wonderful TROOPS

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

Rob - using his big brain again... I have no idea what the following means:


aza anta trid an ttklm ba:ia alti anta la t"rf or?. mn fvlk ic?b ali mkan aor. (figure that one out... I'm sure there's someone here who can.)


BUT I have one which I think is pertinant to 34 reasons why not to join the military as well as become a guinnea pig

MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN

IF you know what it means you know where its from and I hope that the high up in military medicine do heed the warning and fix the problems before it is too late like it was for the person who received that message. Only my wish is secular and I want to fix the problems here for our Wonderful TROOPS

Hey, 7by11, you stole my line!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...5&postcount=21

The handwriting on the proverbial wall from the Christian Bible:

COUNT COUNT WEIGH DIVIDE, usually translated as:

You have been weighed on the balance and found wanting.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/me/Mene-Men.html

So true, it needs to be repeated.

As far as the post by Navymeister: It's not a simple substitution cipher. It appears to have some elements of Arabic (ttklm = talk, speak). I will give him the props that he has stumped me thus far...awaiting translation for us hoi polloi.


P.S. Everything I have written in fern languages (including Klingon) can be easily translated by plugging them into Google (only fair, I think).
--
R

[doctorJP]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

Ok well Call me ignorant if you want to I really dont care you do not know me or my beliefs. I am very pro american Pro Bush Pro Military and I have been associated with the Military both US Army and US Air Force since 1991. My point on that post was that we are trained to search and destroy - nation builiding is a new concept for us and it is a POLITICAL thing - the military is not a diplomatic institution. As for your quote above I think the "Lunatic" marines deserve the benefit of the doubt that they are over there fighting for for both The USA and IRAQI citizens which is Innocent until PROVEN guilty. IF they are guilty hang them I dont care, but I dod not like the way the CONGRESS or MEDIA treated them as if GUILTY - did you know that before they were even arrested they were detained and in 23hr lock down. NOw we have bleeding heart librals (sorry my LWF) who want to give AMERICAN rights to non military enemy combatants who do not follow the Geneva conventions so I think the least we could do is offer that same set of value to our troops...... THe fact that a congress man got on TV before an arrest was made and called them GUILTY is what I was talking about - How are they ever supose to get a fair trial with that kind of POLITICAL RHETORIC - Actually it might be grounds to throw out the whole case and if they are guilty they could get off...


I am not naive about us being asked to police the world. THat is what we do. The USA gives more money to the world for charity and humanitarian things, we go more places to act as police... I dont necessarily think it is a bad thing for us to do this especially if it keeps ALL OF US SAFER - but If you ask us to police something and then tie our hands with what we can do to defend ourselves then that is wrong.

AS A MEDICAL OFFICER I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CARRY MY WEAPON TO DEFEND MY SELF AND MY PATIENTS.. RIGHT NOW IN A WAR ZONE OUR WEAPONS ARE TAKEN FROM US UPON ARRIVAL IN THEATER. However at some military bases US forces are being forced to sleep with (in the same quarters ) with ARMED IRaqi forces (as we know by what happened to out two marines not allof the Iraqi forces are pro Iraqi some are infiltrators).


AS FAR AS YOUR SECOND PARAGRAPH I REALLY DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING - I never said that was all I wanted us to do. I would love to debate all of you but since just after one post you called me ignorant and naive I guess you really dont want to have conversation and want to resort to name calling. I have been called worse and my skin is thicker so keep trying

I would take the time to do the individual quotes I would like to respond to, but that would be too many in number, so I'll try and give a general response. A naive medical student who doesn't know much about combat....perhaps you are right. I do not deny the key roles the US has played in shaping (for better or worse) the world today. I do not like the term "policing the world", as that implies (to naive people like me) the US has the right to change something they do not like. Why should one country have this power?

I doubt you have ever been on the ground with a battalion of Marines. So please spare us the conjecture of a "naive and ignorant" medical (student?) about what happens on the ground in war. Some general guidelines: "I heard from a friend who really knew this dude..." is not really an acceptable source of information. Neither is the news and neither am I. So unless you were with 3/1 in Haditha, stick to making general comments, b/c you really have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Have I ever done a 3/1 Haditha, I don't even know what that is? If I had, do you think I would be in a better position to make accurate comments? You think I just read CNN and believe what I see? I can assure you that is not the case. I could write 10 pages responding to these comments, but you my friend are not worth my time.

Back to 7by11: the thing that upset me was the comment about soldiers being prosecuted for innocent deaths, in a siutation you described. When does this happen? Please provide examples as I would be interested to know about them. I do not have the luxary of being a long-time member of this forum, so I only recognize a few of the constant posters, like Galo, resxn, corps, etc. Just read your first post and read your post replying to mine; they seem like different people to me, but that's just me. I withdraw my comment of naive and ignorant, those were not an accurate description. Though we may have completely different viewpoints, I will readily acknowledge any mistakes I may have made, or when someone makes a legitmate point. As for my second paragraph, I gathered from your original post that your solution to things such as insurgency was to do what you were trained to do, and "to kill people and blow things up"... This reminded me of WWII. Countries going around imposing their will on other people, whether they asked for it or not. I believe Poland was the first country to go.

In any event, I gather now that you did not simply mean we should resort to our old ways. I will not debate war policies on this forum because it's a military medical forum, not a political forum. I might not have 15 years experience in the US military, and I might only be 26, but I do not consider myself a naive and ignorant medical stuent (quoted from navmtndoc).

I'm not here to troll or get people aggrevated, only to offer a perspective that is not American. Maybe I need to present these perspectives with more suave and sophistication, but I'm still learning. Maybe Rob can help me out.

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by doctorJP

I'm not here to troll or get people aggrevated, only to offer a perspective that is not American. Maybe I need to present these perspectives with more suave and sophistication, but I'm still learning. Maybe Rob can help me out.

You have to understand 7by11 has only the best interest of U.S. troops at heart. Her comments about blowing up things and police actions were meant sarcastically.

I guess it was the "naive", "ignorant" and "medical student" names being thrown around, not one of which applies to 7by11, with whom I have worked personally "in the trenches" of U.S. military medical care, that really got both our goats. And when *both* of our goats are gotten, by golly...

And, 7by11, JP is a well-meaning and honorable chap who has very cogent insights into the U.S. military medical fiasco, given his perspective as a Canadian; see this post, and the remainder of his thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...22&postcount=7

Can't we all just get along?

Still waiting to hear what the Arabic/ciphertext phrase from NavyMtnDoc means. At least my Elvish and Welsh stuff is easily googled. Let's give them something to ttklm about...

--
R

[VolatileNavyDoc]

Originally Posted by MedicalCorpse

I guess it was the "naive", "ignorant" and "medical student" names being thrown around, not one of which applies to 7by11, with whom I have worked personally "in the trenches" of U.S. military medical care, that really got both our goats. And when *both* of our goats are gotten, by golly...

7by11: Sorry, none of that post was in response to your comments. It was all in response to someone sitting in their armchair, watching CNN, and calling a bunch of Marines "lunatics".

Medicorpse: Thanks for the grammar lesson. Though your logic is sometiems flawed, nobody can fault your grasp of the English language or cryptologic capabilities.

JP: Yes, you made my point by stating "do" a 3/1. That does have a nice ring though. Maybe it could be a new dance or something.

[7by11thenout]

Originally Posted by NavMtnDoc

7by11: Sorry, none of that post was in response to your comments. It was all in response to someone sitting in their armchair, watching CNN, and calling a bunch of Marines "lunatics".

no biggie, I understood your post was talking to JP not me. no offense taken

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by NavMtnDoc

Medicorpse: Thanks for the grammar lesson. Though your logic is sometiems flawed, nobody can fault your grasp of the English language or cryptologic capabilities.

Still waiting for you to translate your Arabic quote...the letter frequency analysis suggests it is not a ciphertext based on English. Ttklm, dude.

--
R

[7by11thenout]

Listen I was not there - I am not a god or godess as medical corpse would say nor an I a judge I am just a humble country anesthesiologist who wants to assume the good in our miltary people especially thosee people who have to do patrols, or go in and storm a building. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. MY point was with my post that in out new situation of spreading democracy (AKA nation destruction and rebuilding) we are being asked to do things no other military has been asked to do before. We used to be the muscle behing the political machine who would set sanctions and conventions after the war and the military would come home. This is not the case now - so if our soldiers, airmen, marine, and sailors have to stay to act as police and to train up natives, if they find themselves in danger and react they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

There was the case of the marine who was prosecuted a couple of years ago for "shooting" a dead body which flinched (which does happen after death) when just prior to that he witnessed a fellow marine die from an insurgent who pretended to be dead.... He ultimatly was found not guilty but not until he was fried and prosecuted in the media,

As for Haditha- my point was written that Congressmen and MEdia should allow them due process. If they are guilty I say fry them, but not until they are found guilty. However the media attention surrounding these kinds of trials is detrimental to us all in the MILITARY including MEDICAL OFFICERS and here is why

1. I want the people responsible for keeping my hospital safe to be able to make descisions about when to shoot or not to shoot, and not fear being prosecuted. If they delay a split second it could mean their death, or my hospital being overrun

2. I do not want this kind of guilty until proven inocent mentality to spread. I remember watching the news when they found al zarkawi (spelling?) and thinking I hope the corpsman or medic who was a first responder does not make an error (we are humans and do make mistakes) , but if he/she did make a mistake would they be prosecuted criminally. You may think that it has never happened, but doctors and nurses can be prosecuted criminally for medical mistakes - usually it has to be very eggregious error found wanton and neglectful or illegal, but with our antimilitary world, country and media they can spin anythingor at least some of us are becoming more afraid of this possibility. Basically if a soldier in a combat situation gets prosecuted for killing then why cant a doctor or nurse be prosecuted for not saving? I may sound paranoid and it may sound far stretched, but those thoughts do cross our minds. ESPECIALLY AFTER YOU EXPERIENCE SOME THINGS I HAVE AS A PHYSICIAN:

such as a line officer asking the hospital what kind of drug to put on a pizza to take down the enemy and my commander calling me to relay the question... This violates hippocratic oath, geneva conventions and LOAC. OR the fact that while deployed to IRAQ I know several MEDICS WHO had to pull gate guard duty and patrols on their off time... - They were not trained for this and by picking up those weapons they are violating their status as "protected " under G.C LOAC - these are illegal orders being given to medical professionals and where is the line? if that medic is spyied by the enemy tonight acting as an MP then tomorrow in the hospital the enemy can legally say the hospital was just a front for a combatant facility not a hospital and could legally get away with destroying it - OF course this assumes our enemies in the current war follow those laws, but we should even if they dont.

Sorry for the long post

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

OR the fact that while deployed to IRAQ I know several MEDICS WHO had to pull gate guard duty and patrols on their off time... - They were not trained for this and by picking up those weapons they are violating their status as "protected " under G.C LOAC - these are illegal orders being given to medical professionals and where is the line? if that medic is spyied by the enemy tonight acting as an MP then tomorrow in the hospital the enemy can legally say the hospital was just a front for a combatant facility not a hospital and could legally get away with destroying it - OF course this assumes our enemies in the current war follow those laws, but we should even if they dont.

Did some more research...erased my prior entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_medic

Medics are allowed to have weapons to be used only for defensive purposes (this is usually interpreted to mean defense of themselves and their patients, not the entire base/post): http://www.hrweb.org/legal/geneva1.html#Article%2022

They should not be assigned to gate guard duty, and certainly never to patrols.

Although some might argue that Commanders have the right to order non-physician medics to take up arms, thus consciously vacating their protection under the Geneva Convention, how many here think that that is a good idea, either for our medics' morale, the welfare of their patients, or the reputation of our country?

Not good.

--
R

[pgg]

Originally Posted by MedicalCorpse

I loved the military.

[...]

I hate what the military system has done to the formerly proud institution of military medicine. I hate that our brave, injured troops get shoddy care by an inadequate number of inadequately experienced non-physicians, when they deserve 100 times more. I hate that our honored retirees have been thrown to the lions of TRICARE, rather than being able to receive the MTF care they were promised. That's what I hate.

OK, fair enough. I stand corrected.

My day to day experience, here in the somewhat sheltered environment of military residency, is that patients - whether active duty, dependents, or retirees - get consistently high quality care. I simply take offense to the oft-presented notion that military medicine is damaged beyond repair, and the open campaigning to tear it down completely.

I'm not quite sure why you, particularly, get under my skin when Galo, USAFdoc, militarymd, and others do not.

Please consider this the virtual equivalent of an olive branch; I believe you have the best interests of the people those of us on active duty serve, though I don't quite agree with your tactics.

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by pgg

OK, fair enough. I stand corrected.

Thanks.

My day to day experience, here in the somewhat sheltered environment of military residency, is that patients - whether active duty, dependents, or retirees - get consistently high quality care.

I thought the same thing during my residency at the USAF's prior "Mecca" (WHMC). I started to have doubts five years after serving at Travis as staff. I had no doubts whatsoever after one year at Andrews, which had devolved from a "Medical Center" during my 1990-91 internship into barely a superclinic...and which was poised to lose 250 officer slots under MAPPG-06 when I left in June, 05.

One's perspective changes dramatically when one becomes staff, with the concomitant ultimate responsibility for medical care of one's patients. I hope and trust that my attitude, anecdotes, and "tactics" make more sense after you've been an attending for a few years.

I'm not quite sure why you, particularly, get under my skin when Galo, USAFdoc, militarymd, and others do not.

Everyone has splinter skills. My autistic son can breach almost any lock. I guess I'm just special in my superhuman annoyance factor. I wonder if I could get into the next X-Men movie with this talent..."AnnoyingPedanticMan"...hmmm...

Please consider this the virtual equivalent of an olive branch; I believe you have the best interests of the people those of us on active duty serve, though I don't quite agree with your tactics.

Fair enough. Olive branch accepted. For what it is worth, sir, you are officially unplonked. May we both strive, in our own ways, to improve the military medical system...you, from within; I, from without.

Peace,

--
Rob

[doctorJP]

Originally Posted by NavMtnDoc

7by11: Sorry, none of that post was in response to your comments. It was all in response to someone sitting in their armchair, watching CNN, and calling a bunch of Marines "lunatics".

Medicorpse: Thanks for the grammar lesson. Though your logic is sometiems flawed, nobody can fault your grasp of the English language or cryptologic capabilities.

JP: Yes, you made my point by stating "do" a 3/1. That does have a nice ring though. Maybe it could be a new dance or something.

Please enlighten me with the point you were trying to make. So I skimmed over your post and thought you were talking about some rotation in Haditha. You dare to call me naive when I know more about US politics, geography, etc. than most Americans know about their own country. What do you know about Canada? Do you read CBC or BBC to see what is going on in my country? I choose to read international news (including the US sources, except FOX of course) because I am interested in it and I like to be informed. I don't pretend to know everything in the world, but it's always good to have a working knowledge.

Sitting in an armchair watching CNN, I like that. What do you call soldiers going around to houses and killing people? I call those soldiers "lunatics" if they are found guilty, not the entire marine corps. Oh, and I guess if I say that I must be completely anti-American because no American would ever say that about their own soldiers.

7by11: I agree with your point about protecting your patients and knowing when to fire, because that split second can mean life or death. The situation sucks over there for everybody, and inevitably there will be some civilian deaths, that is the nature of war. People should never be guilty until proven innocent, or you may as well flush the Declaration of Independence and democracy down the toilet. Unfortunately, it happens all the time, especially when the media gets ahold of a big time story. Hell, wasn't OJ guilty? Where do you draw the line though? It looks like the military is looking for a martyr because last time I read the news, between Haditha and Abu Ghraib, they were getting some pretty bad publicity. In any war situation, there are always atrocities that are committed and never go reported. Nobody said that war was pretty, and people can't always be expected to perform rationally under those circumstances.

2 more soldiers were killed in Afghanistan this weekend. This is a media frenzy everytime a soldier dies overseas; the media use it for 2 things: 1) to criticize the current government for it's Republican/American/GWB-like policies and 2) to more or less poke holes in our military forces.

I'm not an advocate of war, though being a member of the CF might seem like a contradiction. Haven't quite figured out what to put after this line, the few paragraphs I had would have probably stirred up the pot a bit too much. How to some up my feelings: Something like "I live in a country that doesn't do enough, which is next to a country that does way too much". The vague terms "enough" and "too much" can refer to anything you wish, though I'm sure you catch my drift.

Hey Rob, you asked if we can all get along? I have been asking that question to myself, regarding all the useless conflicts in our world today (and those soon to come.........what is the closet military base to NK again?).

[7by11thenout]

Originally Posted by doctorJP

Do you read CBC or BBC to see what is going on in my country? I choose to read international news (including the US sources, except FOX of course) because I am interested in it and I like to be informed. I don't pretend to know everything in the world, but it's always good to have a working knowledge.

JP you should try FOX to get a feel of what many of us down home people feel. THe BBC and CNN are very anti american, I must confess I do not have access to canadian TV. It is my opinion that only fox represents my opinion fairly although I know many would not agree.

You are correct in saying most Americans don't know about their country that is a problem we have here. We have dumbed down our education to try to accomodate everyone in the interest of Political Correctness and fairness. This is what I can see is one problem with our society and with the immigration problem it is only getting worse. My friends who are teachers have been told here in CA at a PRIVATE school that they are teaching above the level of the students - that same level that these teachers taught at at public school in another state... Do you understand the problems this causes? and will cause in the future? Right now my country is in a big political battle for the direction of our future and many dont even realize it. On one side there are the socialist who want to give everything to everyone and make everyone equal despite us being a capitolist nation, and on the other side there are the politicians who see us having our hands everywhere we can, and dividing everything, to invade and spread our governmental policies to everyone else - neither side represents the majority of us, but that is the pull. And the state of our Congressional body is atrocious. I am a republican as you may be able to tell, but our congress both parties seem to be above all laws - they can assault cops, money launder, murder, molest, hide money in refridgerators, drive under influence and never be arrested, yet our military men and women are "made examples of" before even being given due process... What are we really fighting for?

I do not watch BBC because I get enough anti american crap here - I honestly dont want to see what everyone else thinks. I know my country is not perfect and we have done bad things, but we also do MANY GOOD THINGS that no one seems to notice... We give more money to the world, we send troops everywhere, we support the UN who hates us and who allows dictators to come on our soil and make fun of our government - Ironic when in his own country people would die if they did that to him....

My ancestors have been here since the 1600's, I know alot about my nation the good the bad and the ugly and I am worried for her for her current world opinion being so low of her because despite all her bad stuff she is still good, and this is demonstrated by the fact that many people want to come here to become one of us...

As for Canada, I will not speak, I do not understand your politics nor will I pretend to - my feelings about Canada and Mexico are this: you are so close to us that we will protect you at all costs because that protects Me. You can hate us, but we should protect you no matter what you do to us...

It gets old as an american to always be called the bad guy... Remember we would all be speaking German and Japanese if the USA hadn't been brought into the war, isolationism didnt work then, I suspect it wont work now, but sometimes I do wish we were a little more isolationist here, but that is not our nature.

[7by11thenout]

Could you imagine the outcome of WWI and WWII if every death was published like what has happened in this war?

I do not want to forget our hero's sacrifices, but putting their names on antiwar t-shirts or media propaganda is atrocious....

Our military Medical system has improved our response time and more soldiers are surviving than in any ther war - of course this leave more disabled people but they are alive and it is because of Men and Women like those on this website who give to our military despite all our problems that we fuss about here.

[NavyFP]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

Could you imagine the outcome of WWI and WWII if every death was published like what has happened in this war?

I do not want to forget our hero's sacrifices, but putting their names on antiwar t-shirts or media propaganda is atrocious....

Our military Medical system has improved our response time and more soldiers are surviving than in any ther war - of course this leave more disabled people but they are alive and it is because of Men and Women like those on this website who give to our military despite all our problems that we fuss about here.

Consider the firebombings of Tokyo and the leveling of Dresden. We were not overly concerned with collateral damage. If we had a repeat of the casualty rates of D-day or the invasions of many of the Pacific Islands, how would we respond? Based on current behavior, our society cannot stomach that carnage. We have lost just over 2000 in Iraq and Afghanistan. How many were murdered in New York last year? I too fear for the future. We seem to have lost our will to win.

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

JP you should try FOX to get a feel of what many of us down home people feel. THe BBC and CNN are very anti american, I must confess I do not have access to canadian TV. It is my opinion that only fox represents my opinion fairly although I know many would not agree.

Ah, yes, "Fair and Balanced", just like our national budget. The best thing about being Fox News is never having to say you're sorry: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/1...ey-a-democrat/

You are correct in saying most Americans don't know about their country that is a problem we have here. We have dummed down our education to try to accomidate everyone in the interest of Political Correctness and fairness.

(addressing this via PM to my friend; hint: free IESpell in upper right corner of text editor)

I do not watch BBC because I get enough anti american crap here - I honestly dont want to see what everyone else thinks.

This is one reason why we continue to support inherently flawed foreign policies: aggressive ignorance. "I don't know, and I don't want to know."
Sadly, most British and Canadian people I have met know more about American history than your average 'Merkin.

Being here since the 1600s does not give one's family more validity than a family which was naturalized as citizens yesterday. If that were true, we should all listen to Native Americans first, then everyone else second (ya, that happens).

7by11 and I may disagree about political things, but we both agree that our soldiers deserve to be treated as innocent until proven guilty by courtmartial. If only American citizens accused without proof of being "enemy combatants" were extended the same rights:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/....ap/index.html
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/detenti...s20061017.html

I'll leave it to others to post the Fox News URL for this story...

Later,


--
R

[dpill]

Originally Posted by pgg

The anthrax vaccine is, at present, optional.

Yeah, not so much "optional" anymore. This mandatory "let's see how far the military can go to take away any shred of free will" program is asinine and it has been since the beginning. (From the article below) : "This rate of vaccination not only put the service members at risk, but also jeopardized unit effectiveness and degraded medical readiness." Wasn't Saddam the one that was supposed to have all of those stockpiles of anthrax, anyway? Maybe Chonger will ditch his current nuke efforts and just unleash his massive anthrax lot on all of the unvaccinated American troops...right. Or maybe this illustrious administration already has plans to invade Iran... It is such a good recruiting tool, too- in a time that everyone is flocking to the military.

10/16/2006 - WASHINGTON (AFPN) -- The Department of Defense announced Oct. 16 a resumption of the mandatory Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program (AVIP) for military members, emergency-essential DOD civilians and contractors, based on defined geographic areas or roles.

For the most part, mandatory vaccinations are limited to military units designated for homeland bioterrorism defense and to U.S. forces assigned to the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility and Korea.

The undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness will issue implementing instructions to the military services for resuming the mandatory vaccination program within 30 to 60 days.

"The anthrax vaccine will protect our troops from another threat -- a disease that will kill, caused by a bacteria that already has been used as a weapon in America, and that terrorists openly discuss," said Dr. William Winkenwerder Jr., assistant secretary of defense for health affairs.

The policy also allows those previously immunized against anthrax, who are no longer deployed to higher threat areas, to receive follow-up vaccine doses and booster shots on a voluntary basis

Under the voluntary vaccination policy, implemented during the period of a court injunction throughout 2005, the voluntary acceptance rate was about 50 percent.

"This rate of vaccination not only put the service members at risk, but also jeopardized unit effectiveness and degraded medical readiness. The threat environment and the unpredictable nature of terrorism make it necessary to include biological warfare defense as part of our force protection measures," Dr. Winkenwerder said.

Anthrax is a deadly infection, and the anthrax vaccine is an important force protection measure to combat it. In the fall of 2001, 22 cases of anthrax resulted from attacks with anthrax spores through the U.S. postal system. Five people died in these attacks.

The Food and Drug Administration has repeatedly found, and independent medical experts have confirmed, that anthrax vaccine is safe and effective.

For more information on the anthrax vaccination program, visit http://www.vaccines.mil/ or http://www.vaccines.mil/anthrax.

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by dpill

Yeah, not so much "optional" anymore. This mandatory "let's see how far the military can go to take away any shred of free will" program is asinine and it has been since the beginning.

Word. I got out of the smallpox vaccination because I have eczema (risk of fatal eczema vaccinatum). My main question is: how will DoD care for military members who suffer adverse effects from the anthrax vaccine? It has been 17 months now, and I am still waiting for my VA disability determination for my multiple (non-vaccine-related) service connected disabilities/conditions. Every time I call the VA, they emphasize how swamped they are with veterans leaving the service with severe problems due to service in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Can the system cope with an influx of new veterans harmed by the anthrax vaccine? I think not.

10/16/2006 - WASHINGTON (AFPN) -- The Department of Defense announced Oct. 16 a resumption of the mandatory Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program (AVIP) for military members, emergency-essential DOD civilians and contractors, based on defined geographic areas or roles.

I am no vaccine expert; I don't even play one on TV. However, I do know that thousands of active duty troops have suffered severe reactions, and some have died, from the anthrax vaccine.

Here are a few websites regarding anthrax to look at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax_vaccine
http://www.anthraxvaccine.org/
http://www.gulfwarvets.com/anthrax.htm

Anyone considering joining military medicine in 2006 and beyond should consider carefully: You will be made to take anthrax and possibly smallpox vaccines. Neither of these will protect you as well as lead-lined underwear, however, when you get deployed to the North Korean or Taiwan fronts.

--
R

[newguy357]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

JP you should try FOX to get a feel of what many of us down home people feel. THe BBC and CNN are very anti american, I must confess I do not have access to canadian TV. It is my opinion that only fox represents my opinion fairly although I know many would not agree.

You are correct in saying most Americans don't know about their country that is a problem we have here. We have dummed down our education to try to accomidate everyone in the interest of Political Correctness and fairness.

...

Thanks for this excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly. Back to lurking.

[VolatileNavyDoc]

Originally Posted by dpill

For the most part, mandatory vaccinations are limited to military units designated for homeland bioterrorism defense and to U.S. forces assigned to the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility and Korea.

???? Although I haven't heard of this, I'll be in the CENTCOM AOR VERY soon..... That plan doesn't sound very limited. How many military people are out there who aren't assigned to Central Command right now in one way or the other? For those of you who don't know, Central Command encompasses Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course there's 3 MEF.. Oh wait, that's Korea.

I don't really know what the Anthrax threat is in the Helmand province, but I would definitely be more worried about the guy with the shovel or the poppy farmer with the binoculars. Just my humble opinion.

[7by11thenout]

Originally Posted by MedicalCorpse

Being here since the 1600s does not give one's family more validity than a family which was naturalized as citizens yesterday. If that were true, we should all listen to Native Americans first, then everyone else second (ya, that happens).




Later,


--
R

My point was not that I am better than anyone else, only that I get tired of being called an immigrant. I do not consider myself an immigrant I AM AN AMERICAN not a European American, not a Cherokee Indian American, Not anything but an AMERICAN. I love my history, and I can trace some of the ancestor back in England and I am proud of that, and I am proud that my Great Grandmother was Cherokee, but it does not change my bottom line which is that I am an AMERICAN and proud of it. I am not trying to be ignorant of the world view of me. I have traveled abroad and been called names and yelled at just because I am an AMERICAN, I know others view things differently than I, but I still feel I am part of a GREAT Nation and I get tired of everyone including the U.S. Media only pointing out everything we do bad, and nothing we do right


I type fast and do not proof read, i'll try to do better in the future. I made all 100's on my spelling tests in elementary school, to bad it was words like dog, cat, bat and hat (ha ha)

[MedicalCorpse]

Originally Posted by 7by11thenout

... but I still feel I am part of a GREAT Nation and I get tired of everyone including the U.S. Media only pointing out everything we do bad, and nothing we do right

That's the function of a free press. The government and its websites are free to put out happy reports of liberated children being fed candy by our brave soldiers. I am sure this happens on a daily basis. In fact, the U.S. government has paid to have its happy message (read: propaganda) placed in Iraqi newspapers: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1130-07.htm

The critical function of a free press, as our AMERICAN Founders realized, was to serve as a crucial check on the absolute power of the Executive (President). Not to report "happy" things...but rather to criticize, snipe, pillory, and otherwise act as a thorn in the side of a government that MIGHT become a dictatorship in the absence of public criticism, shaming, and exposure of wrongdoing. This is why Freedom of the Press is enshrined in the First Amendment to our Constitution.

James Madison wrote, in the Virginia Report of 1799:

Some degree of abuse is inseparable from the proper use of everything; and in no instance is this more true, than in that of the press. It has accordingly been decided by the practice of the states, that it is better to leave a few of its noxious branches to their luxuriant growth, than by pruning them away, to injure the vigour of those yielding the proper fruits. And can the wisdom of this policy be doubted by any who reflect, that to the press alone, chequered as it is with abuses, the world is indebted for all the triumphs which have been gained by reason and humanity, over error and oppression; who reflect, that to the same beneficent source, the United States owe much of the lights which conducted them to the rank of a free and independent nation; and which have improved their political system into a shape so auspicious to their happiness.

Folks who complain that the press doesn't say enough happy things about (Bush/the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan/massive budget deficits/any other Republican policy) forget how it was when Clinton was in office. At the time, these same folks didn't harrumph up to microphones to argue that the press needs to look on the bright side of getting bl0wj0bs from interns, rather than always portraying it as being so N E G A T I V E. I mean, heck, a relaxed President is a peaceful President, right? Maybe that's why Clinton kept us out of a ground war in Bosnia, while Bush, um, well, isn't nearly as relaxed...

I type fast and do not proof read, i'll try to do better in the future. I made all 100's on my spelling tests in elementary school, to bad it was words like dog, cat, bat and hat (ha ha)

Heh. Roger that. The only D I got in any class in my life was in 4th grade penmanship (Thanks, Ms. Decker, ya biotch!). According to the Post, penmanship is going the way of the dodo bird...luckily, I also type around 100 wpm...

Peace,

As ever, your LWF,

--
R