Watchout!! Here comes foreign labor

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QuikClot said:
Recall that no one has presented any evidence that what the OP "heard" has any truth to it. Good fun is good fun, I guess. Nothing wrong with a rousing game of Ultimate Red Herring.
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Amen to that. It seems like 90% of what sirus_virus posts is what a horrible profession medicine is and why it's foolish to go down that path at all.

Until there's a source here, this is all wasted breath. Anyone want to take bets on the validity that applicants in the match almost doubled?
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NonTradMed said:
The situation with residency program was also treated in a similar manner. Basically, the 25% of residency positions that goes unfilled will then go to foreigner MDs who are qualified. They are at a disadvantage in terms of language and education (stigma of studying in non US school) in competing against US MDs. I'm not sure why people are up in arms about this. What people should really be mad at is the lack of increase in med school slots, even though there are plenty of qualified individuals waiting for them in this country, when 25% of residency slots goes unfilled that we have to import people to take them.

Basically, allowing in educated immigrants is slightly different from allowing in uneducated immigrants. They both fill certain niches in the economy but I would argue that an educated immigrant also brings with them valuable human capital that is harder to replicate or find.
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You call it a red herring, then compare graduate students in the sciences (funded by Universities) with Residencies (funded by Medicare)? C'mon, give us all a break.

You presentation of the "25% of residency slots" that would otherwise go unfilled is the real red herring here. FMGs get access to the match for all sorts of highly competitive specialties, and do get into them. Not all FMGs end up in rural Kansas doing FP, a portion wind up in New York doing Radiology.

If your argument held any water, then they would first run the match for AMGs, and then fill the unfilled slots with IMGs. Or there would be a requirement to practice in underserved areas of the country. Or they would be limited to specific "under-filled and high need" speciaBut of course it doesn't work that way, because FMGs aren't being brough in to "fill a need", they're exploiting the generosity of an American government that has forgotten that it's priority is to it's own citizens first.

If FMGs weren't allowed in the match, then it would force more slots in American medical schools. More of the smart-but-whiny set from Pre-Allo would get acceptances, and the situation would balance out. As it stands, all FMGs are doing is artificially keeping down the number of AMGs, increasing the competitiveness of an already insanely-competitive system, and getting a free education off our tax dollars.
 
Canada used to run a two round match much like you propose (they still might, haven't looked into it in a while).
 
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Tired said:
As it stands, all FMGs are doing is artificially keeping down the number of AMGs, increasing the competitiveness of an already insanely-competitive system, and getting a free education off our tax dollars.
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I cant agree with this. They are hardly getting a free education. They are working their asses off just like we are AND they will practice in the US following their residency program. Residents are cheap labor and it is an absolute steal for a hospital to get a resident to "train" there.

They are probably keeping the numbers of AMGs artifically low but the benefit of this system is that it is regulated. We don't want to end up with a surplus of doctors, look at law and see how well this worked out! Plus, I don't think it is necesarrily a bad thing to keep medicine as competitive as it is. It drives up the caliber of applicants that do get admitted.
 
Critical Mass said:
(beats chest)

I'm not really that able to comment on relative board scores of IMG's because the last match outcome booklet I have is from 2005, but the data that I've seen suggests that US seniors outperform others on the USMLE I in general.

(beats chest)

Actually I am one of the rare med students sacrificing grades in favor of going over First Aid as an M1. I view both M1 and M2 as time well spent preparing for step 1. My class rank doesn't interest me that much because I think that my school's grading system is about the worst in the country.

(beats chest)

Regarding communication, the step 2 CS exam score should include ability to communicate as part of it IMO. Whether it does or not is unknown to me, but that is seemingly one part of the USMLE that could favor native English speakers.
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that beats chest thing is funny.:laugh:

Actually this whole thread is funny.
 
hey long dong whered you match I hope you got your #1
 
surebreC said:
They are working their asses off just like we are AND they will practice in the US following their residency program.
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Thank you. It seems like a lot of people are arguing that FMGs hop on a plane over here, steal a dermatology spot from a red-blooded, flag-waving Yankee, and then take their U.S government-subsidized training back to their home countries.

I don't have statistics on hand, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the vast majority of FMGs do stay in the U.S. post-residency and provide care to U.S. citizens. And they do have a harder time than U.S. grads in terms of matching in the first place. It's not like they're getting some kind of super-sweet deal that is denied to the rest of us.

But keep going. I love the smell of nativism in the morning. (Well, late night, actually -- but it's 8:40 AM in Tbilisi!)
 
lisichka said:
wow, it seems to me at times that this thread is from some backwards small country from the middle ages. C;mon, give me a break here. so if i am an AMG from a good US medschool, but have an accent, a patient will refuse an angioplasty, just because i have an accent:oops:

p.s. just to remind you, your great great great parents had an accent at some point.

also have you ever been to NYC? it seems like you have never left your backyard.

--ok there, i said it. my mad fumes are out.:mad:

*says lisichka as she is ready to move back to NYC*
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Holy shucks, a big city like NYC? Naw, I've never left good ol Tulsa Oklahoma.

I lived in NYC for a summer, I've been to about ten different countries, none of which is in any way relevant to the fact that patients often dislike doctors with foreign accents. I've seen it plenty of times; I've been the medical student that the patient asks after the FMG attending leaves "don't you have any American doctors I can see?". Not that that would ever happen in NYC, of course, because they are an enlightened liberal bastion where nobody would ever (diallo) do anything (louima) un-politically correct (bell) like in those racist flyover states.
 
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For those of you that are alright with bringing in a bunch of FMG's in the name of "competitiveness" - I'm honestly fine with that as long as we realize that this same argument ought to apply to outsourcing American labor to other countries where it's cheaper and more efficient - ie more "competitive".

Why Americans whine about jobs going overseas but are OK with foreign labor coming in and working American jobs (such as in this thread's example)is beyond me. Either way it's an American job lost. So pick one and go with it, America. Outsourcing our labor is either OK or it is not.
 
Writer1985 said:
It's not like they're getting some kind of super-sweet deal that is denied to the rest of us.
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Actually they are getting a sweet deal, because the US is the only industrialized nation that has such a liberal FMG policy. Can I go to Canada or Europe with the same ease that FMGs come to the states? I think not.

Now if all nations had the same kind of FMG policy, then I might be willing to "open the borders" to FMGs, but as it stands now, its clealry not a level playing field. USA is one of hte easiest nations in the world for FMGs to come to, most other first world nations have ridiculous hurdles you have to jump that are much stiffer than the american system.

I favor a 2 round system. First match for AMGs, then FMGs can take the leftovers. If they dont like it, they can take their chances in their own country. Lets be honest, the vast majority of foreign docs would give their right arm to practice in the states. Its a privilege, not a RIGHT to come here and we can set any hurdles we wish.

USA takes more FMGs than all other nations COMBINED. And yet I have to listen to more FMG complaining every year. What a crock.
 
MacGyver said:
Actually they are getting a sweet deal, because the US is the only industrialized nation that has such a liberal FMG policy. Can I go to Canada or Europe with the same ease that FMGs come to the states? I think not.

Now if all nations had the same kind of FMG policy, then I might be willing to "open the borders" to FMGs, but as it stands now, its clealry not a level playing field. USA is one of hte easiest nations in the world for FMGs to come to, most other first world nations have ridiculous hurdles you have to jump that are much stiffer than the american system.

I favor a 2 round system. First match for AMGs, then FMGs can take the leftovers. If they dont like it, they can take their chances in their own country. Lets be honest, the vast majority of foreign docs would give their right arm to practice in the states. Its a privilege, not a RIGHT to come here and we can set any hurdles we wish.

USA takes more FMGs than all other nations COMBINED. And yet I have to listen to more FMG complaining every year. What a crock.
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Good question.
 
notdeadyet said:
Amen to that. It seems like 90% of what sirus_virus posts is what a horrible profession medicine is and why it's foolish to go down that path at all.
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If you don't want to hear what I am saying, simply go to your user options and block my username. You can also kick it up a notch by adding all the confetti vomitting users who think medicine is all gravy to your buddy list.

PS: I am not saying it is foolish to go down this path, I am just saying the pricetag placed on being a doctor by both medschools and premeds is way higher than what it's worth.
 
Even though I'm not an allopath, nor pre-allopath - but instead I am a physical therapy doctor who went to physical therapy medical school - I support the 2 round system. FMGs should just be picking the leftovers. Its infuriating to see my friend doctors graduate with 200k in debt, while some foreign ho-ho from a no-name podunk medical school in some cesspool spends about 10 bucks on a useless "MBBS" and catches the first boat to the states, hoping to get into IM, FP or anesthesia. A good 90% of them can't even speak the darn language. Thank god for the PT profession, when u go for physical therapy, you know u're going to someone who's US educated, US trained, US certified.

Beware of the MBBS
 
Even though I'm not an allopath, nor pre-allopath - but instead I am a physical therapy doctor who went to physical therapy medical school - I support the 2 round system. FMGs should just be picking the leftovers. Its infuriating to see my friend doctors graduate with 200k in debt, while some foreign ho-ho from a no-name podunk medical school in some cesspool spends about 10 bucks on a useless "MBBS" and catches the first boat to the states, hoping to get into IM, FP or anesthesia. A good 90% of them can't even speak the darn language. Thank god for the PT profession, when u go for physical therapy, you know u're going to someone who's US educated, US trained, US certified.

Beware of the MBBS
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Yep, beware of the MBBS.

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/sarcasm off
 
BigBucksPTA said:
Its infuriating to see my friend doctors graduate with 200k in debt, while some foreign ho-ho from a no-name podunk medical school in some cesspool spends about 10 bucks on a useless "MBBS" and catches the first boat to the states, hoping to get into IM, FP or anesthesia. A good 90% of them can't even speak the darn language.
Beware of the MBBS
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Doing well on the USMLE is tough enough, I can't imagine having to do it in a language I couldn't speak. FMG's must have at least passable english to do well enough on the USMLEs to match. I can speak pretty good German but there's no way I'd be willing to take the USMLE in all German.
 
BigBucksPTA said:
Even though I'm not an allopath, nor pre-allopath - but instead I am a physical therapy doctor who went to physical therapy medical school - I support the 2 round system. FMGs should just be picking the leftovers. Its infuriating to see my friend doctors graduate with 200k in debt, while some foreign ho-ho from a no-name podunk medical school in some cesspool spends about 10 bucks on a useless "MBBS" and catches the first boat to the states, hoping to get into IM, FP or anesthesia. A good 90% of them can't even speak the darn language. Thank god for the PT profession, when u go for physical therapy, you know u're going to someone who's US educated, US trained, US certified.

Beware of the MBBS
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HaHa. Too funny. You had me going for a second. I really thought you were serious. "Physical therapy doctor...physical therapy medical school...Thank god for the PT profession." You crack me up. Next, can you do the bit about how OD's shouldn't be called doctors? Or the one on how PT are more "doctor-like" than PharmD's. Man, I just LOVE that one!!!11!11!eleven!11!
 
Dakota said:
Doing well on the USMLE is tough enough, I can't imagine having to do it in a language I couldn't speak. FMG's must have at least passable english to do well enough on the USMLEs to match. I can speak pretty good German but there's no way I'd be willing to take the USMLE in all German.
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Passable english my ass. I know many FMGs who did great on Step I but you cant understand a damn thing they say. I've seen many patients ask these FMGs to repeat themselves over and over again because their accent was so thick.

Reading in English does NOT mean you are a capable communicator in English. The CSE exam is a joke when it comes to measuring ability to speak English correctly.

Remember, FMGs get extra time to study for Step I. Some of these dudes study for a whole year. US grads dont have that luxury unless they want to take a leave of absense from school or something.
 
BTW, lets examine more closely the mantra that I hear repeated often here.

This mantra, that FMGs only take the spots that americans dont want is a very dubious argument based on recent match data.

Lets look at general surgery for example. This year, in the 2007 match, out of 1050 programs, only 2 programs did not fill. Thats a 99.8% fill rate. Gen surg competition is at an all time high and I believe the match rate for US grads was less than 80%. There are a lot more applicants for gen surg than positions.

So I found it interesting yesterday when I read thre NRMP match bulletin which showed that 20% of all gen surg spots were filled by FMGs this year.

Still think the FMGs take only the leftovers? I call BS on that.
 
MacGyver said:
Passable english my ass. I know many FMGs who did great on Step I but you cant understand a damn thing they say. I've seen many patients ask these FMGs to repeat themselves over and over again because their accent was so thick.

Reading in English does NOT mean you are a capable communicator in English. The CSE exam is a joke when it comes to measuring ability to speak English correctly.

Remember, FMGs get extra time to study for Step I. Some of these dudes study for a whole year. US grads dont have that luxury unless they want to take a leave of absense from school or something.
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I actually know someone that studied for 2 years straight and only took the test when he knew he was 100% ready to kill it. Now tell me who on the face of the planet will not ace the crap out of the USMLE if they had an infinite amount of time to study for it.

Now if you want to be all brave, classy and sophisticated by saying you welcome more competition, let me remind you that there is probably enough competition in you class let alone the country to knock you on your ass 6 times over. Doesn't supprise me though, seeing as a lot of people here think the only way to validate their holy alliance to medicine is to take as much punishment as possible.
 
MacGyver said:
Lets look at general surgery for example. This year, in the 2007 match, out of 1050 programs, only 2 programs did not fill. Thats a 99.8% fill rate. Gen surg competition is at an all time high and I believe the match rate for US grads was less than 80%. There are a lot more applicants for gen surg than positions.

So I found it interesting yesterday when I read thre NRMP match bulletin which showed that 20% of all gen surg spots were filled by FMGs this year.
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This is a pretty good argument and I suspect that some US students did get passed over because of the high caliber IMGs that they were competing against. The problem is that people will say that the 20% of US grads that didn't match only ranked programs that did not take any IMGs.

Some people around here are just convinced that no IMG gets a spot that a US grad applied for. So to prove them wrong, we just need to find a US grad who didn't match and find that an IMG matched at one of the programs that was ranked by the US grad. Then maybe we can settle this argument once and for all.

The question of whether or not we should have to compete with IMGs is subject to personal opinion and will not be settled here.
 
Before you jump to any conclusion about Macgyvers post, let me ask how many of those IMGs are actually Americans who ended up going to school in another country?
 
surebreC said:
Before you jump to any conclusion about Macgyvers post, let me ask how many of those IMGs are actually Americans who ended up going to school in another country?
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I actually support having Americans graduating form foreign schools compete on equal footing with american allo graduates.
 
surebreC said:
Before you jump to any conclusion about Macgyvers post, let me ask how many of those IMGs are actually Americans who ended up going to school in another country?
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Good question. Can we see some stats split out AMG vs. IMG vs. FMG?
 
MacGyver said:
I've got no problem with FMGs. However, their residency slots SHOULD NOT BE TAXPAYER FUNDED BY MEDICARE unless they are going into a primary care slot in a rural area.

If an FMG wants to match into a neurosurgery residency in Miami, then good luck to him. But let the residency program eat that cost instead of getting their 100k per year from Medicare.
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I'm jealous of all these taxpayers. I'm just a med student, and don't pay taxes...
 
Panda Bear said:
IMGs are generally not as good doctors as Americans.
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I am sure this is sarcasm, otherwise, this highly flamable thread just caught fire. :laugh:

On a more serious note, I don't know about quality, and I am actually inclined to believe human beings at least have equal potentials regardless of origin. My point is that we ought to look out for our own citizens first when it comes to American jobs. Everyone arround the world(even third world countries) do the same.
 
Tired said:
If your argument held any water, then they would first run the match for AMGs, and then fill the unfilled slots with IMGs. Or there would be a requirement to practice in underserved areas of the country. Or they would be limited to specific "under-filled and high need" speciaBut of course it doesn't work that way, because FMGs aren't being brough in to "fill a need", they're exploiting the generosity of an American government that has forgotten that it's priority is to it's own citizens first.

If FMGs weren't allowed in the match, then it would force more slots in American medical schools. More of the smart-but-whiny set from Pre-Allo would get acceptances, and the situation would balance out. As it stands, all FMGs are doing is artificially keeping down the number of AMGs, increasing the competitiveness of an already insanely-competitive system, and getting a free education off our tax dollars.
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Hm, I don't believe FMGs are keeping the number of AMGs low. From what I understand, increasing the number of AMG slots in this country is NOT controlled by FMGs, but by the medical schools (with 'encouragement' perhaps by AAMC). What I see is US MD slots kept artificially low by US doctors for their own economic interest.

Think of it this way, which is easier to control physician supply and demand: controlling the number of students graduating from US MD schools? Or controlling the number of FMGs coming to this country? The former requires schools to reduce their class size, while the latter requires reducing work/student visa quotas for FMGs. I'd say it's far easier to deal with the FMGs than with individual medical schools.

Also, what's this 'free education' thing you're talking about? Have you spoken with any medical residents? You think any of them believe that they're getting a FREE education working 80 hours a week? The US gov't may be shelling out $110k per resident, but the resident gets to be highly skilled slave labor for a number of years. I'd say most residents are not thinking they got a sweet deal with their 'free' education.

Also, as I stated before, acquiring highly educated people in this country means the US gets a partially FREE education from the taxpayers of other countries. Human capital is one of the most expensive costs in a knowledge based industry such as the US. The US government pays for the education of most of its citizens. I'm not just "leeching" off the US gov't as a future medical resident, I was leeching off the US gov't from elementary school through college (where I got some cool scholarships, thanks Uncle Sam!). An educated foreign national had their education paid for in another country and the US profits from getting extra human capital without paying for their elementary, middle/high school or college costs. That's FREE human capital.

My parents education was completely paid for by the Chinese gov't before coming here. In return for being allowed into this country, they've been faithful taxpayers for over 20 years plus my mother made some strong contributions to the field of molecular biology (her stuff even made its way into the mainstream media :D). What did the US gov't have to do to get such expertise? Grant them a visa and a job. Minimal startup cost for the US gov't in exchange for decades of scientific research and taxes.

Taking care of the US? Yeah, I'd say the US is very well taken care of when they allow foreign nationals into this country without having to pay for their education.

FYI, many companies in the Silicon Valley, along with much of the IT industry was courtesy of these people who came to this country for their so-called 'free' education. I think the US benefited quite a bit over the years from their innovation.

I believe what made the US great wasn't the US government protecting it's own citizens against the foreign competition, it was exposing foreign competition to the US. (And yea, I guess I'm responsible for the increased competition into med school last year with my sterling MCAT and GPA scores ;), and I probably took away a well deserving American's slot at my med school, heehee :p :smuggrin: )
 
NonTradMed said:
Hm, I don't believe FMGs are keeping the number of AMGs low. From what I understand, increasing the number of AMG slots in this country is NOT controlled by FMGs, but by the medical schools (with 'encouragement' perhaps by AAMC). What I see is US MD slots kept artificially low by US doctors for their own economic interest.

Think of it this way, which is easier to control physician supply and demand: controlling the number of students graduating from US MD schools? Or controlling the number of FMGs coming to this country? The former requires schools to reduce their class size, while the latter requires reducing work/student visa quotas for FMGs. I'd say it's far easier to deal with the FMGs than with individual medical schools.

Also, what's this 'free education' thing you're talking about? Have you spoken with any medical residents? You think any of them believe that they're getting a FREE education working 80 hours a week? The US gov't may be shelling out $110k per resident, but the resident gets to be highly skilled slave labor for a number of years. I'd say most residents are not thinking they got a sweet deal with their 'free' education.

Also, as I stated before, acquiring highly educated people in this country means the US gets a partially FREE education from the taxpayers of other countries. Human capital is one of the most expensive costs in a knowledge based industry such as the US. The US government pays for the education of most of its citizens. I'm not just "leeching" off the US gov't as a future medical resident, I was leeching off the US gov't from elementary school through college (where I got some cool scholarships, thanks Uncle Sam!). An educated foreign national had their education paid for in another country and the US profits from getting extra human capital without paying for their elementary, middle/high school or college costs. That's FREE human capital.

My parents education was completely paid for by the Chinese gov't before coming here. In return for being allowed into this country, they've been faithful taxpayers for over 20 years plus my mother made some strong contributions to the field of molecular biology (her stuff even made its way into the mainstream media :D). What did the US gov't have to do to get such expertise? Grant them a visa and a job. Minimal startup cost for the US gov't in exchange for decades of scientific research and taxes.

Taking care of the US? Yeah, I'd say the US is very well taken care of when they allow foreign nationals into this country without having to pay for their education.

FYI, many companies in the Silicon Valley, along with much of the IT industry was courtesy of these people who came to this country for their so-called 'free' education. I think the US benefited quite a bit over the years from their innovation.

I believe what made the US great wasn't the US government protecting it's own citizens against the foreign competition, it was exposing foreign competition to the US. (And yea, I guess I'm responsible for the increased competition into med school last year with my sterling MCAT and GPA scores ;), and I probably took away a well deserving American's slot at my med school, heehee :p :smuggrin: )
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There is a moral responsibility for any government to look after it's own tax paying citizens first, and that moral responsibility is violated when you give their jobs away when they qualify and desire that job. This is not a new concept and even the countries that send these so called "human capital" will not reciprocate the gesture. I liken it to abandoning your own kids to go fend for someone else's kids.
 
NonTradMed said:
... (And yea, I guess I'm responsible for the increased competition into med school last year with my sterling MCAT and GPA scores ;), and I probably took away a well deserving American's slot at my med school, heehee :p :smuggrin: )
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I think your family is one of the many that made our country great. Thanks for sharing that with us.
 
sirus_virus said:
I am sure this is sarcasm, otherwise, this highly flamable thread just caught fire. :laugh:

On a more serious note, I don't know about quality, and I am actually inclined to believe human beings at least have equal potentials regardless of origin. My point is that we ought to look out for our own citizens first when it comes to American jobs. Everyone arround the world(even third world countries) do the same.
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Actually, just this once, it's not. Some of the absolute worst doctors I have ever run across have been non-American IMGs. Of course, this is just my personal experience. I also know a lot of foreign physicians who are top-notch. Still, just because someone was a nephrologist in Pakistan and took a low-prestige Family Medicine residency spot to get a "foothold" doesn't mean he's necessarily a great doctor, just that he had the money and the connections to make the jump.

Another thing I have noticed is how anti-American a lot of foreign physicians are. My parents were immigrants. They loved America and the idea of being an American, not just the opportunity to make a buck.
 
NonTradMed said:
Hm, I don't believe FMGs are keeping the number of AMGs low. From what I understand, increasing the number of AMG slots in this country is NOT controlled by FMGs, but by the medical schools (with 'encouragement' perhaps by AAMC). What I see is US MD slots kept artificially low by US doctors for their own economic interest.

Think of it this way, which is easier to control physician supply and demand: controlling the number of students graduating from US MD schools? Or controlling the number of FMGs coming to this country? The former requires schools to reduce their class size, while the latter requires reducing work/student visa quotas for FMGs. I'd say it's far easier to deal with the FMGs than with individual medical schools.

Also, what's this 'free education' thing you're talking about? Have you spoken with any medical residents? You think any of them believe that they're getting a FREE education working 80 hours a week? The US gov't may be shelling out $110k per resident, but the resident gets to be highly skilled slave labor for a number of years. I'd say most residents are not thinking they got a sweet deal with their 'free' education.

Also, as I stated before, acquiring highly educated people in this country means the US gets a partially FREE education from the taxpayers of other countries. Human capital is one of the most expensive costs in a knowledge based industry such as the US. The US government pays for the education of most of its citizens. I'm not just "leeching" off the US gov't as a future medical resident, I was leeching off the US gov't from elementary school through college (where I got some cool scholarships, thanks Uncle Sam!). An educated foreign national had their education paid for in another country and the US profits from getting extra human capital without paying for their elementary, middle/high school or college costs. That's FREE human capital.

My parents education was completely paid for by the Chinese gov't before coming here. In return for being allowed into this country, they've been faithful taxpayers for over 20 years plus my mother made some strong contributions to the field of molecular biology (her stuff even made its way into the mainstream media :D). What did the US gov't have to do to get such expertise? Grant them a visa and a job. Minimal startup cost for the US gov't in exchange for decades of scientific research and taxes.

Taking care of the US? Yeah, I'd say the US is very well taken care of when they allow foreign nationals into this country without having to pay for their education.

FYI, many companies in the Silicon Valley, along with much of the IT industry was courtesy of these people who came to this country for their so-called 'free' education. I think the US benefited quite a bit over the years from their innovation.

I believe what made the US great wasn't the US government protecting it's own citizens against the foreign competition, it was exposing foreign competition to the US. (And yea, I guess I'm responsible for the increased competition into med school last year with my sterling MCAT and GPA scores ;), and I probably took away a well deserving American's slot at my med school, heehee :p :smuggrin: )
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This is such a load of crock, the whole thing about how grateful we should be that we get cheap foreign labor, namely the foreign IM/FP residents.

Like I said, these guys practically go thru med school for FREE - and the standard of their education is appalling, to put it mildly. Like some other poster mentioned, they spend about a year to 18 months MEMORIZING Harrison's, or Robbins, or some such medical bible. The folks that I knew could tell you the page number of a disease. Does this mean they're smarter? Absolutely not. In fact, they have NO education in BLS, ACLS, ethics, spirituality, addiction, etc etc (some of the softer topics). They have no understanding of the team dynamics of the US medical system - many of them come here thinking that nurses should worship them, the way it is in their home country. And they are HUGELY insecure. Just try questioning their knolwedge - they'll go into a rant. Just try it.

And bottom line - they're the most money conscious money-centric sonsabitches u'll ever meet on the planet. The whole reason they left their cesspool for the US was to make money. They are not motivated by patient care or wanting to help. Quite literally, their motives are quite disgusting.

For any of you who happen to know an FMG personally, I have no doubts that u'll agree with me. And like I said, thank heavens we don't have too many FPTGs.
 
Critical Mass said:
.

If somebody can come here and blow me away on my country's USMLE, welcome! Especially if you want to practice here.
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There are many people that could blow me away on the USMLE but, that doesn't mean they are a better physician then I. I still can't seem to figure out why SO many people think that board scores determine your ability to be an incredible physician. They show you master the material and you can test well. They don't factor in compasion, ability to integrate the information or any other humanistic characteristics.
 
NonTradMed said:
Hm, I don't believe FMGs are keeping the number of AMGs low. From what I understand, increasing the number of AMG slots in this country is NOT controlled by FMGs, but by the medical schools (with 'encouragement' perhaps by AAMC). What I see is US MD slots kept artificially low by US doctors for their own economic interest.

Think of it this way, which is easier to control physician supply and demand: controlling the number of students graduating from US MD schools? Or controlling the number of FMGs coming to this country? The former requires schools to reduce their class size, while the latter requires reducing work/student visa quotas for FMGs. I'd say it's far easier to deal with the FMGs than with individual medical schools.

Also, what's this 'free education' thing you're talking about? Have you spoken with any medical residents? You think any of them believe that they're getting a FREE education working 80 hours a week? The US gov't may be shelling out $110k per resident, but the resident gets to be highly skilled slave labor for a number of years. I'd say most residents are not thinking they got a sweet deal with their 'free' education.

Also, as I stated before, acquiring highly educated people in this country means the US gets a partially FREE education from the taxpayers of other countries. Human capital is one of the most expensive costs in a knowledge based industry such as the US. The US government pays for the education of most of its citizens. I'm not just "leeching" off the US gov't as a future medical resident, I was leeching off the US gov't from elementary school through college (where I got some cool scholarships, thanks Uncle Sam!). An educated foreign national had their education paid for in another country and the US profits from getting extra human capital without paying for their elementary, middle/high school or college costs. That's FREE human capital.

My parents education was completely paid for by the Chinese gov't before coming here. In return for being allowed into this country, they've been faithful taxpayers for over 20 years plus my mother made some strong contributions to the field of molecular biology (her stuff even made its way into the mainstream media :D). What did the US gov't have to do to get such expertise? Grant them a visa and a job. Minimal startup cost for the US gov't in exchange for decades of scientific research and taxes.

Taking care of the US? Yeah, I'd say the US is very well taken care of when they allow foreign nationals into this country without having to pay for their education.

FYI, many companies in the Silicon Valley, along with much of the IT industry was courtesy of these people who came to this country for their so-called 'free' education. I think the US benefited quite a bit over the years from their innovation.

I believe what made the US great wasn't the US government protecting it's own citizens against the foreign competition, it was exposing foreign competition to the US. (And yea, I guess I'm responsible for the increased competition into med school last year with my sterling MCAT and GPA scores ;), and I probably took away a well deserving American's slot at my med school, heehee :p :smuggrin: )
Click to expand...

There is no room for logical arguments here - only nationalist jingo! YER EYETHER WITH US ER AGAINST US!
 
sirus_virus said:
There is a moral responsibility for any government to look after it's own tax paying citizens first, and that moral responsibility is violated when you give their jobs away when they qualify and desire that job. This is not a new concept and even the countries that send these so called "human capital" will not reciprocate the gesture. I liken it to abandoning your own kids to go fend for someone else's kids.
Click to expand...


I never heard of this moral responsibility before..or is this something you are stating as some kind of assumed truth? If I don't pay taxes (like most medical students for example), does the government have no moral responsibility toward me? How about a foreign medical student vs. an American born Welfare resipient...who gets the moral jackpot from the government? I'm just trying to sort through this notion that if one pays taxes, then one is deserving of the goverment's responsibilty to be looked after before those who don't pay taxes...I think there are a boat load of tax-paying folks in New Orleans who feel they are more deserving of the goverment's largesse then say people who want a new government building in Baghdad...okay, even I can recognize that I'm so far off subject that I should now shut up....so, how about that Match?
 
dutchman said:
:laugh: :laugh: Your post looked like it came straight out of the mouth of your Avatar, and it just cracked me up.
Click to expand...

Elmo is part of the new border militia ;)
 
saradoor said:
This is not entirely accurate:

In the UK at least, students have to go thru one additional year of secondary school before they can be considered for a 6 yr medical degree program. In the US, lot of medical schools will consider students without a bachelor's degree. So in the case of number of years of education it is
UK : 13 + 6 = 19
US : 12 + 3 + 4 = 19

Of course our 19 beats their 19 :laugh:
Click to expand...

hey in aus its 12 + 5 = 17, ill be an intern when im 22 years old
btw the US system on foreign doctors is much better than hear or canada.... im a canadian citizen... and it seems so hard to be able to go back to canada.... i was thinkin of even maybe trying the US.
i just hope my half canadian half aussie accent will be able to be understood by the people of america ;)
 
HCE said:
I never heard of this moral responsibility before..or is this something you are stating as some kind of assumed truth? If I don't pay taxes (like most medical students for example), does the government have no moral responsibility toward me? How about a foreign medical student vs. an American born Welfare resipient...who gets the moral jackpot from the government? I'm just trying to sort through this notion that if one pays taxes, then one is deserving of the goverment's responsibilty to be looked after before those who don't pay taxes...I think there are a boat load of tax-paying folks in New Orleans who feel they are more deserving of the goverment's largesse then say people who want a new government building in Baghdad...okay, even I can recognize that I'm so far off subject that I should now shut up....so, how about that Match?
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me? Of course a government has a moral responsibility towards its tax paying citizens. Those are the people the government is there to serve. (Though I do hear your arguments about welfare folks, etc). I think the thing so many of you are missing is that this crap ONLY HAPPENS IN THE UNITED STATES. Foreigners love to bash the United States and whine about how it would be so wrong for us to keep them out - and yet their own countries would never in a million years allow me to come do a residency there. Try being a foreign minority looking for work in a European country sometime and then come back and talk to me about America.
 
I can say that this thread has been rather eye-opening for me. It shows me exactly why doctors are on the receiving end of so much crap including attempts to force them to fund the very universal healthcare they'll be providing. (And it helps me understand why a doctor I work with is continually pleading with me to reconsider my career path and apply to dental school).

The attitude of so many US docs, premeds, and current med students: Replace US phyisicians with foreign labor? Sure, why not. Allow a foreign grad who has paid nothing for the education and had infinite time to study for the USMLE take away a good residency slot from a US grad who is $150K in debt and only had 2 months to study for the same exam? Sure why not. Too bad for the US grad who will now have to scramble into a crappy FP slot in Buttcrack, Wyoming. (By the way, if I study for the USMLE for the next 2 years (but never go to medical school) and get a higher score than some US med school grads, would you all be OK with me entering residency above a US grad? Afterall, you don't seem to take quality of medical education into consideration - just the USMLE). Then let's tax those same poor kids who scrambled into FP 3% of their revenues to provide universal healthcare, all while decreasing reimbursements. Meanwhile, when reimbursements fall and the tax burden becomes too high, the foreign doctors who did their residencies here will wisely go back to their own countries.

I'd pay just about anything to fall in love with teeth, but I just can't seem to. None of my friends in dental school seem to have this bend over and take it mentality, and consequently I predict that in 20 years, general practice dentists will be making FAR MORE than general practice docs, and maybe even as much as many of the specialty fields. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see pharmacists making more than GP physicians sometime down the road either.
 
saradoor said:
This is not entirely accurate:

In the UK at least, students have to go thru one additional year of secondary school before they can be considered for a 6 yr medical degree program. In the US, lot of medical schools will consider students without a bachelor's degree. So in the case of number of years of education it is
UK : 13 + 6 = 19
US : 12 + 3 + 4 = 19

Of course our 19 beats their 19 :laugh:
Click to expand...
Um, actually, the US is 1+12+4+4 = 21 years. Didn't you go to kindergarten? And I think all 206 people in my class have bachelor's degrees, so there's another year.
 
Mr. Hat said:
I can say that this thread has been rather eye-opening for me. It shows me exactly why doctors are on the receiving end of so much crap including attempts to force them to fund the very universal healthcare they'll be providing. (And it helps me understand why a doctor I work with is continually pleading with me to reconsider my career path and apply to dental school).

The attitude of so many US docs, premeds, and current med students: Replace US phyisicians with foreign labor? Sure, why not. Allow a foreign grad who has paid nothing for the education and had infinite time to study for the USMLE take away a good residency slot from a US grad who is $150K in debt and only had 2 months to study for the same exam? Sure why not. Too bad for the US grad who will now have to scramble into a crappy FP slot in Buttcrack, Wyoming. (By the way, if I study for the USMLE for the next 2 years (but never go to medical school) and get a higher score than some US med school grads, would you all be OK with me entering residency above a US grad? Afterall, you don't seem to take quality of medical education into consideration - just the USMLE). Then let's tax those same poor kids who scrambled into FP 3% of their revenues to provide universal healthcare, all while decreasing reimbursements. Meanwhile, when reimbursements fall and the tax burden becomes too high, the foreign doctors who did their residencies here will wisely go back to their own countries.

I'd pay just about anything to fall in love with teeth, but I just can't seem to. None of my friends in dental school seem to have this bend over and take it mentality, and consequently I predict that in 20 years, general practice dentists will be making FAR MORE than general practice docs, and maybe even as much as many of the specialty fields. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see pharmacists making more than GP physicians sometime down the road either.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. It is always funny that sometimes a lot of docs medstudent or premeds that have this mentality cannot even discern when they are infact "bending over and taking it" and sometimes they actually like to "bend over and take it". Another thing to note is that people that like "taking it" will look for more ways to get it(HMOs, politicians, Insurance etc). As pointed out, there is no significant impact of foreign application on the match this year, so no need for the alarm. The thread does however show you some problems doctors have with protecting themselves in the U.S. Somewhere along the line, someone must have convinced some people that the only way to prove you are a true physician is to offer yourself and your family up for as much personal sacrifice as humanly possible.

PS: expect the usual "in it for the money" bashing any second.
 
TheProwler said:
Um, actually, the US is 1+12+4+4 = 21 years. Didn't you go to kindergarten? And I think all 206 people in my class have bachelor's degrees, so there's another year.
Click to expand...

Oh my goodness all the UK folks who told me that they attended 2 yrs of kindergarten between 4-6 were all lying to me! And about 1/4 of my med school classmates who claimed they finished their degrees in 3 yrs or under were also lying to me!

Thank goodness that we have smart intellectuals such as yourself to point this out. I am truly speechless! :laugh:
 
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