sexual harassment during rotations

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I just spoke to my friend, and she told me about her surgery attending who 'accidentally' grabbed her breast during breast clinic. What a prick. I told her to say something, but he is some bigshot surgeon and she is scared of the possible bad eval. How the hell do I go about ending this crap in medicine? Medicine is the only field where this sort of abuse is STILL accepted....

Originally Posted by basupran

I just spoke to my friend, and she told me about her surgery attending who 'accidentally' grabbed her breast during breast clinic. What a prick. I told her to say something, but he is some bigshot yale surgeon and she is scared of the possible bad eval. How the hell do I go about ending this crap in medicine? Medicine is the only field where this sort of abuse is STILL accepted....

1) Scared of a possible bad eval? At what point would she draw the line? Downright sexual assault?

2) You don't say something. You slap him, you walk out, you walk straight to your dean. You report it. That is the only way to end it.

3) And no, this kind of abuse is not STILL accepted.

Attendings may seem high and mighty and invincible, but there is one thing they all fear. Hospital Risk Management/Corporate Compliance.

Going to a department head may sweep this under the rug due to the old boys network. The legal guys, however, don't tolerate this stuff. These are the guys and gals who can take away his right to work with students and residents (making his life 10X worse), suspend his privelages, or even fire him. And they don't take crap because their only job is to keep the hospital from being sued.

Now, realize this is the equivalent of thermonuclear warfare in the medical world. You may end up blacklisted in some departments. Your evaluations may stink. Your school may side with the attending doctors because they're afraid of other doctors not taking students. So, depending on your career aspirations, you may want to have some tact (wait until you get a surgery grade in THEN drop the bomb.)

Originally Posted by basupran

I just spoke to my friend, and she told me about her surgery attending who 'accidentally' grabbed her breast during breast clinic. What a prick. I told her to say something, but he is some bigshot yale surgeon and she is scared of the possible bad eval. How the hell do I go about ending this crap in medicine? Medicine is the only field where this sort of abuse is STILL accepted....

I would file the complaint before the grade comes out, otherwise if your friend gets a bad grade then they will play it like "oh, this is a sub-par student who is complaining about a fair evaluation", the longer you wait the more it will look like it wasn't serious enough for you to mention in the first place. Be aware though that medical students are supposed to go through hell in medical school, and you (friend?) can't look like a complainer, obvious physical harassment is not supposed to be part of it, and I don't see how this could be an accident, but I'm sure that it if comes to an inquiry this surgeon could make it look like an accident, and it you don't have any witnesses the attending usually wins in my experience. Be forewarned that many in the school administration will not be so sympathetic and look at you as someone who is trying to take down one of their own, get a lawyer because you could get burned too, i.e. making false statements or something like that, the school will probably try to trip you up if anything goes wrong on the surgery rotation and try to make it look like you don't know what you are doing.

As much as I would like to side with the posters above I have to say that I would not say anything. Is that right? no, of course not. But, as a student you do not win against the system. Period.

Is it worth losing your education because some guy was a d*ck? no. Will there always be d*cks like that? yes, of course. When you do fellowship, he will be there too.

The best revenge is living well, and if that means stuffing down your feelings for a period of time I would do it. Medicine does not support students or residents when it comes to 'unfairness.' We have essentially no rights. Try spending time at the VA where patients, staff and others will constantly try and hit on you or even touch you - what are your going to do? You brush it off and move on. There are far too many of them and only one of you - your future is not worth losing because some guy was an *****hole. Let it go, learn some graceful self-protective skills and continue on your path.

.

You think medicine is bad.

You should see what goes on in politics!!

Most of them are the lawyers

umm...yeah, if an attending ever touched me there is no chance in hell i would "just let it go"...wtf guys?

we're talking about so much more than your future. it's about self respect. whether you decide to report it or not, you better at least let it be known that NOBODY (i don't care if it's the f-ing cheif of medicine) has the right to inappropriately grab you.

i'm not saying cuss anyone's life away, but don't shy away and brush it off like nothing happened. at the very least you can tell the attending to never touch you again. how dare he!

wow, that just made me furious. us female med students work hard to be where we are, and we don't need to feel threatened in our workplace. it's not the 1800s people. get with the times.

Playa, welcome to the real world where people have $100 000 ++ in interest accruing debt hanging over their heads and their life's dream in the hands of some possibly inappropriate people.

While your sentiment is appropriate in the homes of your friends and family, in professional situations you always have to weigh your future versus your 'self-esteem.' Anyone who works for a living and has to support a family will also struggle with this, whatever their job might be. Or their gender.

It's foolish to want to stand up for your 'rights' when it can very, very easily get you booted out of a job or career. It's not worth it.

Just my 0.02 worth.

This is why you should avoid ivy league schools.

Originally Posted by PeepshowJohnny

Attendings may seem high and mighty and invincible, but there is one thing they all fear. Hospital Risk Management/Corporate Compliance.

Agreed. When I was a student, there was a dean that was fired basically on the spot after ONE student suggested that he was verbally sexually abusive. There wasn't any physical contact whatsoever. Risk management folks were the driving force behind it all - not the school president/other deans/etc.

I would probably let it go if it happened once and was possibly maybe an accident. But if it was obviously done on purpose, or if it happened more than once, I would let my feelings be heard. It would take something huge for me to actually report the guy, but I would certainly talk to him and let him know I'm not going to just take the harassment. It sucks to think that because we are women on a high-powered career track, we should just let the men who are currently higher up on the ladder take advantage of us. I have more respect for myself.


Is harassment from male patients very common for female medical students? It is one thing I am dreading about 3rd year, as I have had older men say some pretty inappropriate things to me before.


Edit/After-thought: My position on this is kind of interesting. I say I have more respect for myself, but I would probably take the mental bashing that attendings are known to dish out to med students in general. But when it comes to a gender specific kind of hazing, I draw the line.

Fortunately I've never had to deal with any type of inappropriate physical advances, but I've definitely been the recipient of inappropriate comments. For the most part I let the little things go- patients saying things like "oh, you can be my doctor any day" while their eyes suggest that it's my breasts that they would like treating them, etc. In some ways I feel some responsibility for these types of comments, because I consiously put on makeup, wear my hair long and often down, and try to dress attractively.

There was one instance where an ob/gyn attending was explaining the shorthand for vaginal dimensions. He explained what each was, and then looked at me and the other female student, and said, "well, you'd be, like..." and the proceded to offer his impressions of what our vaginal dimensions might be. Since I'm going into OB/Gyn and didn't want to kill my eval, I just spoke with one of the residents that I trusted and asked to not be assigned to any more of his cases. I told her that I was uncomfortable with a comment that he made, but didn't share the comment. This ended up working fine- I never had to scrub in with him again, and my eval wasn't affected.

Originally Posted by mules05

For the most part I let the little things go- patients saying things like "oh, you can be my doctor any day" while their eyes suggest that it's my breasts that they would like treating them, etc. In some ways I feel some responsibility for these types of comments, because I consiously put on makeup, wear my hair long and often down, and try to dress attractively.

I'm sorry, but this is a load of crap. I think that it's been well established, legally, that women do not "ask" to be sexually assaulted/harrassed because of the way that they are dressed or how much makeup they have on. As long as you're not dressing inappropriately (which I doubt you are, or else you would have been yelled at for it on your evals), then you're not "asking" for these kind of comments just because you take care of how you present yourself to patients. Don't buy into the archaic way of thinking that women "ask" to be harrassed because they're not dressed in oversized burlap bags.

Originally Posted by smq123

I'm sorry, but this is a load of crap. I think that it's been well established, legally, that women do not "ask" to be sexually assaulted/harrassed because of the way that they are dressed or how much makeup they have on. As long as you're not dressing inappropriately (which I doubt you are, or else you would have been yelled at for it on your evals), then you're not "asking" for these kind of comments just because you take care of how you present yourself to patients. Don't buy into the archaic way of thinking that women "ask" to be harrassed because they're not dressed in oversized burlap bags.

I agree with the point that women don't "ask" to be sexually assaulted, whether by their appearance or attitude. Re-reading my post, I guess it does come across that way, and I really didn't mean to imply that women ask to be treated a certain way because of the way they look. I guess I was just trying to point out that when I wake up in the morning, I put effort into looking good. As a result, when men acknowledge that, I don't really mind, as long as it's not an offensive comment. And it doesn't offend me when patients are a little friendlier to me than to my male colleagues, or when someone jokes that I'm too cute to be a surgeon. If someone was grabbing my breast or something, I'd certainly be offended, and wouldn't feel responsible for that kind of behavior by another person.

Originally Posted by mules05

I agree with the point that women don't "ask" to be sexually assaulted, whether by their appearance or attitude. Re-reading my post, I guess it does come across that way, and I really didn't mean to imply that women ask to be treated a certain way because of the way they look. I guess I was just trying to point out that when I wake up in the morning, I put effort into looking good. As a result, when men acknowledge that, I don't really mind, as long as it's not an offensive comment. And it doesn't offend me when patients are a little friendlier to me than to my male colleagues, or when someone jokes that I'm too cute to be a surgeon. If someone was grabbing my breast or something, I'd certainly be offended, and wouldn't feel responsible for that kind of behavior by another person.

Sorry for the strongly worded post. It's just that - there's nothing wrong with making an effort to look good, as long as you're professional about it (obviously). And if you get some compliments from that, or a patient is more cooperative with you, then that's great. But I don't think that you (or anyone else) should feel "responsible" when male patients, residents, or attendings cross the line of basic courtesy and decency.

Originally Posted by smq123

Sorry for the strongly worded post. It's just that - there's nothing wrong with making an effort to look good, as long as you're professional about it (obviously). And if you get some compliments from that, or a patient is more cooperative with you, then that's great. But I don't think that you (or anyone else) should feel "responsible" when male patients, residents, or attendings cross the line of basic courtesy and decency.

Of course you shouldn't take any responsibility for your decisions.

If you want to get dolled up in the morning, accept the fact that by making yourself more attractive you open yourself up to situations that otherwise may not have presented.

For example, when I drive into the city I don't take my porsche, I take my girlfriend's jetta. It's not that I don't love driving my porsche, but it's excersizing a certain situational prudence. Porsches gain unwanted attention and I would prefer to avoid this attention.

When you do something that garners you additional attention, you do in fact bear some responsibility when unwanted outcomes result from your chosen behavior. I'm sorry if that hurts your little sensitive snowflake soul, but welcome to reality.

Originally Posted by smq123

And if you get some compliments from that, or a patient is more cooperative with you, then that's great. But I don't think that you (or anyone else) should feel "responsible" when male patients, residents, or attendings cross the line of basic courtesy and decency.

I actually agree with typeB-md. If you are going to take the good, you have to be prepared for the bad. (I knew a girl in college who did some modeling, and when her bikini shot appeared on a porn site, she was freaking out about how unfair it was.)

But the workplace is not the time to hit on a pretty girl. The workplace is also not the place for a women to wear a short skirt and show cleavage while wearing her club makeup. Unfortunately, as a women, if you aren't "fugly" and you put minimal effort into looking presentable, you are automatically at risk for inappropriate behavior from men. At least, this has been my experience (outside the medical field).

Side note/rant:
I guess a lot of men just have no idea how to be subtle, though. I've definitely had men do the full body scan on me while minding my own business, walking down the street in normal fitting jeans, flip-flops, and a loose sweater with a high neckline - hair up in a pony-tail and essentially no makeup on. In that outfit and setting, I am obviously not trying to get any attention - just trying to blend into the crowd and go about my daily business. I don't care if people check me out, because I admit I check people out sometimes, too, but MUST they do the head bob/body scan?? I'm not going to cry sexual harassment on them, but it does make you feel objectified. So if a girl gets that kind of response when she isn't trying to get any kind of attention, good or bad, what is she supposed to do...wear a baggy T-shirt down to her knees over sweatpants and let her hair get greasy?

Okay, sorry...I just hate the body scan that guys do, including my male friends. Can't you boys learn to just glance at someone and appreciate whatever it is they have that you like? Is it really necessary to look them up and down and back up? I believe women look at men as much as men look at women, but we apparently have a different technique.

Originally Posted by Abilene85

Side note/rant:
I guess a lot of men just have no idea how to be subtle, though. I've definitely had men do the full body scan on me while minding my own business, walking down the street in normal fitting jeans, flip-flops, and a loose sweater with a high neckline - hair up in a pony-tail and essentially no makeup on. In that outfit and setting, I am obviously not trying to get any attention - just trying to blend into the crowd and go about my daily business. I don't care if people check me out, because I admit I check people out sometimes, too, but MUST they do the head bob/body scan?? I'm not going to cry sexual harassment on them, but it does make you feel objectified. So if a girl gets that kind of response when she isn't trying to get any kind of attention, good or bad, what is she supposed to do...wear a baggy T-shirt down to her knees over sweatpants and let her hair get greasy?

How do girls do a "body scan" on men? I.e. do you just look at the guy peripherally? I've noticed that girls looks at guy's heads, but don't do the "body scan" much.

Originally Posted by typeB-md

If you want to get dolled up in the morning, accept the fact that by making yourself more attractive you open yourself up to situations that otherwise may not have presented.

For example, when I drive into the city I don't take my porsche, I take my girlfriend's jetta. It's not that I don't love driving my porsche, but it's excersizing a certain situational prudence. Porsches gain unwanted attention and I would prefer to avoid this attention.

When you do something that garners you additional attention, you do in fact bear some responsibility when unwanted outcomes result from your chosen behavior. I'm sorry if that hurts your little sensitive snowflake soul, but welcome to reality.

But I'm arguing that there's a difference between saying to someone "Wow, you look really pretty today!" and "Hey, lady, I'm glad that YOU'RE my doctor today!!! [ogles breasts]"

I'm not saying that you shouldn't expect some attention if you take the time to dress nicely. But, apparently, it's asking too much to expect that the people around you observe some basic rules of decency, politeness, and civility.

It's becoming more established in our culture that people don't "ask" to be sexually harrassed or assaulted based on the way that they dress. I think, therefore, that it's pretty fair to say that wearing a sweater that fits well (isn't too low-cut or too tight, but isn't shaped like a bag) doesn't mean that you deserve to have your breasts ogled by a lecherous attending/resident/patient. I'm sorry if that hurts your little morose, crabby soul, but welcome to reality.

Originally Posted by UndeadHeart

How do girls do a "body scan" on men? I.e. do you just look at the guy peripherally? I've noticed that girls looks at guy's heads, but don't do the "body scan" much.

Yep. I think a lot of girls do a very quick glance - usually looking at the head tells you what you need to know about his features and his expression, while at the same time we can collect enough information peripherally about body shape and dress. You might catch some girls doing a head to ring finger glance to see if he is married or not. Men apparently need to do a mental measurement of bust and booty instead of getting a general feel that she is hot or not. Apparently this is why so much concentration is needed to check out a girl that they often drop out of the conversation when a decently attractive one walks by.

The only time I remember doing a double take, turn-and-look was when a fire truck full of 4 Hotty McHot firemen drove past. The whole group of girls I was with stopped and followed their truck with our eyes and bodies. (We got honks from them, so it was all good.) However, on a regular basis, I see guys do the up-down-up scan AND turn around to do the same thing again and catch the woman's other side. Tacky.

i think that if attention from the opposite sex really freaks you out, you could probably find a way to at least NOT ENCOURAGE it.

ladies, trust me, i know what you go through, but i also know that pulling your hair back into a pony tail, wearing dress slacks, and a button down shirt work wonders in not attracting any extra attention. ya might want to wear only minimal make-up. yeah, i know it sucks to not get all pretty and girly for work, but what other options do we have..men will ALWAYS be men.

i mean seriously.....think about it.

Originally Posted by Abilene85

But the workplace is not the time to hit on a pretty girl. The workplace is also not the place for a women to wear a short skirt and show cleavage while wearing her club makeup. Unfortunately, as a women, if you aren't "fugly" and you put minimal effort into looking presentable, you are automatically at risk for inappropriate behavior from men. At least, this has been my experience (outside the medical field).

This has been my experience within the medical field as well. I do my hair and put on a little makeup so I look like I got more than 4 hours of sleep, but normally I'm wearing scrubs, or maybe pants and a sweater. I've never once worn a skirt to work, but still get these comments. Maybe people have been watching too much Grey's Anatomy and think we're all going to pull an Izzy and fall in love with our patient.

Originally Posted by lil pook

i also know that pulling your hair back into a pony tail, wearing dress slacks, and a button down shirt work wonders in not attracting any extra attention.

I hate to break it to you, but most of us have tried this, and still get comments. We're not all going all out for work and then complaining about it. It just seems that if a female is in the habit of showering once a day and hasn't been cursed with mutiple deformities, the men in the medical field are going to make comments.

All this discussion makes me think, Are men in medicine more sexual than the general man population?

Originally Posted by mules05

This has been my experience within the medical field as well. I do my hair and put on a little makeup so I look like I got more than 4 hours of sleep, but normally I'm wearing scrubs, or maybe pants and a sweater. I've never once worn a skirt to work, but still get these comments. Maybe people have been watching too much Grey's Anatomy and think we're all going to pull an Izzy and fall in love with our patient.



I hate to break it to you, but most of us have tried this, and still get comments. We're not all going all out for work and then complaining about it. It just seems that if a female is in the habit of showering once a day and hasn't been cursed with mutiple deformities, the men in the medical field are going to make comments.

if that doesnt work for you than perhaps you should work on how you carry yourself..in other words learn how to command respect...men can sense how far they can go...find a way to come off as no nonsense/stern without appearing cold/callous

YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by HMSBeagle

All this discussion makes me think, Are men in medicine more sexual than the general man population?

Sexually deprived? Possibly.

Originally Posted by lil pook

if that doesnt work for you than perhaps you should work on how you carry yourself..in other words learn how to command respect...men can sense how far they can go...find a way to come off as no nonsense/stern without appearing cold/callous

Well, as a third year med student, nothing I do commands any respect.... So, I may be forced to attach a large spiked ball to my stethoscope and start carrying around a heavy lead pipe instead of a reflex hammer. Maybe that will give guys the message on "how far they can go."

Originally Posted by smq123

Well, as a third year med student, nothing I do commands any respect.... So, I may be forced to attach a large spiked ball to my stethoscope and start carrying around a heavy lead pipe instead of a reflex hammer. Maybe that will give guys the message on "how far they can go."

lol...seriously though, pick a female attending you admire and try to carry yourself the same way...commanding respect regarding personal boundaries has little to really do with where you are on the totem pole...don't confuse the issue

I think that this would generate a lot of gossip at a small school. At my school, a much smaller institution than Yale, a lot of gossip goes around about who to avoid.

I remember one incident when a surgery attending rubbed his forearm against my left breast. He immediately said, "oh, excuse me John", but I could of sworn he wanted me right then and there.

Originally Posted by Abilene85

Side note/rant:
I guess a lot of men just have no idea how to be subtle, though. I've definitely had men do the full body scan on me while minding my own business, walking down the street in normal fitting jeans, flip-flops, and a loose sweater with a high neckline - hair up in a pony-tail and essentially no makeup on. In that outfit and setting, I am obviously not trying to get any attention - just trying to blend into the crowd and go about my daily business. I don't care if people check me out, because I admit I check people out sometimes, too, but MUST they do the head bob/body scan?? I'm not going to cry sexual harassment on them, but it does make you feel objectified. So if a girl gets that kind of response when she isn't trying to get any kind of attention, good or bad, what is she supposed to do...wear a baggy T-shirt down to her knees over sweatpants and let her hair get greasy?

Okay, sorry...I just hate the body scan that guys do, including my male friends. Can't you boys learn to just glance at someone and appreciate whatever it is they have that you like? Is it really necessary to look them up and down and back up? I believe women look at men as much as men look at women, but we apparently have a different technique.

It's not that we have no idea; it's that we just don't care.

And it's also unfair to compare guys to girls when talking about getting checked out. Girls are a package deal with the face, breasts, butt, and legs. There's quite a bit to check out...guys, not so much.

Those who complain about being 'objectified' also need to realize that there are immeasurable benefits to being attractive. These far excede the associated negatives. You need to ask yourself: Is it really as bad as I'm making it out to be?

Would you prefer to be a horse-faced fatty? My guess is no.

Now keep on walking... it's hard to appreciate the booty with all the blabbing.

Originally Posted by smq123

But I'm arguing that there's a difference between saying to someone "Wow, you look really pretty today!" and "Hey, lady, I'm glad that YOU'RE my doctor today!!! [ogles breasts]"

I'm not saying that you shouldn't expect some attention if you take the time to dress nicely. But, apparently, it's asking too much to expect that the people around you observe some basic rules of decency, politeness, and civility.

It's becoming more established in our culture that people don't "ask" to be sexually harrassed or assaulted based on the way that they dress. I think, therefore, that it's pretty fair to say that wearing a sweater that fits well (isn't too low-cut or too tight, but isn't shaped like a bag) doesn't mean that you deserve to have your breasts ogled by a lecherous attending/resident/patient. I'm sorry if that hurts your little morose, crabby soul, but welcome to reality.

Of course there is a difference between someone expressing themselves appropriately or inappropriately, and I never said there wasn't. Just as you bear some blame so does the tactless moron who can't keep his pecker in order.

And nothing has become established in our culture beyond this trend that blabbing feminists think their loud-mouthed, emotionally immature tirades should be considered de facto despite them having nothing that approaches rational explanation for their beliefs.

The fact that you feel bad about being groped isn't reason enough to absolve you of partial responsibility. Dave Chappelle said it best: If you dress like a police officer, don't be surprised when people come up and ask for your assistance.

And your point about not wanting to wear a sweater shaped like a "bag" shows just how image conscious you are. You're a hypocrite if you criticize others for outwardly acknowledging a behavior that you voluntarily champion.

Originally Posted by Abilene85

You might catch some girls doing a head to ring finger glance to see if he is married or not.

The only time I remember doing a double take, turn-and-look was when a fire truck full of 4 Hotty McHot firemen drove past. The whole group of girls I was with stopped and followed their truck with our eyes and bodies. (We got honks from them, so it was all good.) However, on a regular basis, I see guys do the up-down-up scan AND turn around to do the same thing again and catch the woman's other side. Tacky.

Basically you are saying that women are superficial and socially fragile.

Guys aren't worried about being judged for checking out a passing woman. Girls, on the other hand, are very judgmental and fear the social consequences of outwardly expressing sexual interest. If you don't believe me, just look at how much more open women are becoming as it becomes more socially acceptable for women to express sexuality.

EDIT: Let me also add that this is the reason women feel the need to look good. The makeup, hair irons, etc... would be completely unnecessary if women stopped judging each other. It's not guys, it's other women that are the root of this. The male metrosexuals tried to pull this crap, but guys quickly put an end to it. We, as males, don't need to be devaluing our baseline looks by raising the status quo and dolling ourselves up.

Additionally, the irrational emotional nature also plays into the self-imposed necessity to want to look good. Why is it that a woman is so image conscious all the damn time? Why do women feel to the need to have get togethers where the sole purpose is to dress up and look nice...and then go out to dinner and take 1000+ photos with flashes and generally be annoying to everyone else in the restaurant.

Originally Posted by HMSBeagle

All this discussion makes me think, Are men in medicine more sexual than the general man population?

More sexually repressed, maybe, but that's about it.

Med school is a very odd situation in the sense that you have a bunch of former nerds and dweebs who all of a sudden think the M-bomb is a magic vag-magnet. It's like, calm down McLovin'.

Medicine might be more prone to this inappropriate behavior because you have basically very intimate situations with sometimes unclothed people. Or, even doing simple exams you are very close to people - think ophthalmic eye exams, how close is that?

Most people handle it well and there are no problems. But, what can you do - you can't control other people's behavior. You can do what lilpook suggests and find good ways to deflect potential weirdness, and act in ways that show you clearly have very professional boundaries. For students who have not hit the clinical years, you will have that task for you to sort out. Excellent advice to look for other women in good positions of power and watch how they handle patients and their male colleagues. It's do-able, we can learn how to be good clinicians and skillful professionals and not be sidetracked by something inappropriate. As for dress, once again that is a personal issue. Find a balance that you feel comfortable with and see how it works for you. But don't ever feel that looking pretty is an invitation for harassment. If someone is inappropriate their behavior is only a reflection of themselves, and they're are responsible for that - not you.

Some women wear the dark grey/blue camauflage colors that businessmen have usually worn and that can often help reduce the distraction of unwanted male attention in professional situations. In the end, you are more than your clothes and it's your personality that will make the difference.

i especially make it a point to NEVER let any skin show...anywhere!

maybe that is being paranoid, but i make sure my button down shirts are buttoned all the way to the top. i might let the first button be undone. many of the shirts you find right now at Express and such are extremely low cut. you might want to pin them shut at the top. i don't really find them professional looking even thought they are button-downs.

like i said, pants are worn always....and never, ever ,ever do i wear high heels.. and lord knows i need 'em. (hence the screen name).

the thing with heels is this: they throw your body into a posture that is sexually alluring to men...think about it...what happens to your back when you wear heels? it arches- which makes your butt and boobs stick out....NOT COOL.

just a few tips if anyone is interested. body language speaks volumes to the opposite sex. why accentuate your sexuality if in fact you really do despise unwanted come ons?

Rape is a crime of violence perpetrated by criminals against persons of either sex and any age. Like robbery, assault and any other crime, no victim "asks for it". That being said, anyone who experiences "sexual harassment (a form of assault) in any form in any medical school needs to report this just as you would report robbery or murder. To do otherwise is to say that "it's OK for these types of things to go on".

The idea that as a medical student, you have to accept sexual harassment because the perp is an attending physician is to perpetuate the situation. If you (or the person in the original post) reported the act (and documented the act both with administration and outside school administration -file a police report) something might be done.

In my experience with medicine and medical school since 1998, sexual harassment has not been a part of that educational experience. There is no "Sexual harassment is standard operating procedure in medicine". If your medical school does not take these type of reports and incidents seriously, then you go outside your school. If the students (males and females) know that certain professors and attendings are a problem, request to meet with your dean of students (as a group) armed with incidents and dates of those incidents otherwise, they continue and your educational experience suffers.

yeah, of course, attendings should know better.

unfortunately, some patients (read--older, old school men) WILL NOT.that is a fact of life. whether or not you agree, makes no difference, it's going to happen.

there are things you can do to prevent it.

the above are things I have found to be helpful

Originally Posted by lil pook

i especially make it a point to NEVER let any skin show...anywhere!

maybe that is being paranoid, but i make sure my button down shirts are buttoned all the way to the top. i might let the first button be undone. many of the shirts you find right now at Express and such are extremely low cut. you might want to pin them shut at the top. i don't really find them professional looking even thought they are button-downs.

like i said, pants are worn always....and never, ever ,ever do i wear high heels.. and lord knows i need 'em. (hence the screen name).

the thing with heels is this: they throw your body into a posture that is sexually alluring to men...think about it...what happens to your back when you wear heels? it arches- which makes your butt and boobs stick out....NOT COOL.

just a few tips if anyone is interested. body language speaks volumes to the opposite sex. why accentuate your sexuality if in fact you really do despise unwanted come ons?

This thread is seriously bumming me out.

Listen. All men are not pigs and sexual harassers by default, and women do not need to dress like Laura Ingalls Wilder so that the men can go about their business and not be distracted by our woman-hood. Men are going to check out the ladies and women are going to check out the guys. This is normal, we are human. A guy does not need to be in a g-string for me to appreciate his "form" and vice versa.

(I'm a woman) but I understand that men are more visual and do more "checking out" visually than women. Whatever. As a long as a guy isn't blatantly talking to my breasts, I could care less if I catch him doing the "scan." I have worn a heel, showed professional-levels of skin and spent lots of time at the local VA. I have never felt harassed, nor have I been treated with disrespect. I wholeheartedly agree that it is important to carry yourself with professionalism and a level of assertiveness, yes even as a med student!

Professional dress is common sense, don't show excessive cleavage, super short skirts, etc. But, you can dress with a sense of fashion, that includes heels within practical reason, and wear your hair down, and, god forbid! wear some makeup. This is not inviting harassment. If a guy feels it invites or warrants harassment, he is probably borderline misogynistic and is the one who needs help.

Ridiculous. Touching is inappropriate, but it is ridiculous how much importance is given to words and glances. Actions speak louder than words. The rest of the world laughs their ass off at all the litigation and rules regarding spoken/glancing sexual harassment in the US. People need to grow thicker skin, and until it happens we'll remain the Prozac nation.

Originally Posted by haveaniceday

This thread is seriously bumming me out.

Listen. All men are not pigs and sexual harassers by default, and women do not need to dress like Laura Ingalls Wilder so that the men can go about their business and not be distracted by our woman-hood. Men are going to check out the ladies and women are going to check out the guys. This is normal, we are human. A guy does not need to be in a g-string for me to appreciate his "form" and vice versa.

(I'm a woman) but I understand that men are more visual and do more "checking out" visually than women. Whatever. As a long as a guy isn't blatantly talking to my breasts, I could care less if I catch him doing the "scan." I have worn a heel, showed professional-levels of skin and spent lots of time at the local VA. I have never felt harassed, nor have I been treated with disrespect. I wholeheartedly agree that it is important to carry yourself with professionalism and a level of assertiveness, yes even as a med student!

Professional dress is common sense, don't show excessive cleavage, super short skirts, etc. But, you can dress with a sense of fashion, that includes heels within practical reason, and wear your hair down, and, god forbid! wear some makeup. This is not inviting harassment. If a guy feels it invites or warrants harassment, he is probably borderline misogynistic and is the one who needs help.

i don't believe ALL men are pigs either. i like to think that in fact, MOST men are not. this thread is about unwanted come-ons. there are things that woman can do to be proactive and deter such behavior.

of course nobody asks to be harrassed. nobody asks to get mugged either, but do you go walking down the streets of a slum in the middle of the night?

have you ever considered that it could've been an accident?

accident DOES happen
and I have grabbed/touched my friends' boobs by accident before (fist bumps mistfire, etc)

Originally Posted by coralfangs

have you ever considered that it could've been an accident?

accident DOES happen
and I have grabbed/touched my friends' boobs by accident before (fist bumps mistfire, etc)

Seriously? Worst. Bump. Ever.

Originally Posted by persia

Playa, welcome to the real world where people have $100 000 ++ in interest accruing debt hanging over their heads and their life's dream in the hands of some possibly inappropriate people.

While your sentiment is appropriate in the homes of your friends and family, in professional situations you always have to weigh your future versus your 'self-esteem.' Anyone who works for a living and has to support a family will also struggle with this, whatever their job might be. Or their gender.

It's foolish to want to stand up for your 'rights' when it can very, very easily get you booted out of a job or career. It's not worth it.

Just my 0.02 worth.

DAMN!!! You nailed this head on!!! people use the fact taht you have debt, family etc, to manipulate you in the work world. when you are debt free you have nobody using jobs and money over your head to control you.

i agree 100% with the above poster. this is everywhere and you will find this in every situation. it is crap but at least that was the most of it. i have seen and experienced WORSE. people use positions of power to manipulate and bully. why do you think so many people want to have their own business? there is a big reason behind it.

Originally Posted by UndeadHeart

How do girls do a "body scan" on men? I.e. do you just look at the guy peripherally? I've noticed that girls looks at guy's heads, but don't do the "body scan" much.

they dont, they usually just do a wallet scan and a social value scan

Originally Posted by Abilene85

Is harassment from male patients very common for female medical students? It is one thing I am dreading about 3rd year, as I have had older men say some pretty inappropriate things to me before.

I know it's a huge problem for nurses. Interestingly, male nurses are often harassed even worse because some men, especially older ones, make assumptions about their sexuality that are usually wrong and wouldn't matter even if they weren't.

At my last job, there was a male patient who was groping nurses, pulling their shirts out so he could look down them, etc. You have to wonder how sick he really was if he was capable of doing things like that. They decided to assign all male nurses to him, which made things even worse. So, they called 6'7", 400 pound Tom, RN from another floor who introduced himself, told him that we do not harass the nurses in this hospital, and the problem was solved.

Originally Posted by mashnuts

1) Scared of a possible bad eval? At what point would she draw the line? Downright sexual assault?

2) You don't say something. You slap him, you walk out, you walk straight to your dean. You report it. That is the only way to end it.

3) And no, this kind of abuse is not STILL accepted.

It is at my university. In 3rd year there's a hospital where a really bigshot Infectious disease specialist gives a Pathology course. Everyone knows he sexually harasses female med student right in the middle of class in front of everyone so that someone with a camera on their cellphone to record it and upload it on youtube or something.

One really attractive blond student I don't know issued a report to my university because the guy touched he breast and gluteus and the idiot machist coordinator told her: "But you have to understand that he is a man."

It not only happened to guys from my university. Another private university has students that take the same course with this guy and he does the same thing. Some students of his take it with humor even. I heard he only harsses women that look like bimbos that don't look like the type that will go complain.

I met him a few times because I had some courses at the hospital he worked at and he never did anything funky with me. I probably seemed too hostile toward him to make it worth his while.

I recently got harassed by a coworker but he was drunk as hell and apparently doesn't even remember it. I told it humorously in front of him now sober and my superiors while we were drinking some beers and now he's been forever tagged as the boobie toucher. I still say hi to him but I'm not particularly friendly either. Don't see the point in issuing a legal report.

You don't accidently "grab" a breast. A fist-bump accident, a slip and fall, a brush against, sure. But a grab is intentional. And in this scenario, you should go directly to Dean of Students, not course administrator, and report the behavior. If they aren't handling it appropriately, you call a lawyer, you call the cops, and you threaten them with legal action and/or publicity. You owe it to yourself and your female colleagues to get this taken care of. You probably weren't the first, and you probably won't be the last if you don't have the balls to report it. A person who is sexually assaulting female subordinates has no place in academic medicine.

Originally Posted by coralfangs

have you ever considered that it could've been an accident?

accident DOES happen
and I have grabbed/touched my friends' boobs by accident before (fist bumps mistfire, etc)

Base on your avatar picture I doubt those incidents were accidental contact

On a different note, a cute intern chick tried to press her boobs against my face the other day. !!!pimpin' HIGH FIVE!!!

Originally Posted by cpants

assaulting female subordinates has no place in academic medicine.

no place in society as a whole, call the cops