Overpaid nurses

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Originally Posted by emedpa

"While the nursing education community would have you believe that the outcomes are better with BSNs than ADNs (studies with doubtful validity in my opinion) they have been unable to provide a sufficient number of BSN graduates for the workforce. The ADN programs on the other hand have been the majority of the expansion for the nursing workforce. So again you have a program that while its underpinning seem sound instead increases loss of working nurses by limiting opportunity, promoting elitism, and valuing education over ability.
Just my non-nursing perspective"

as a non-nurse(FWIW) I have to agree with this....
if an adn does an online adn to bsn program are they really a better bedside nurse? no. they know how to write a thesis paper or design a study to evaluate the impact of hand sanitizers in the bathroom at a nursing home.
I did a post grad masters degree program for pa's who already had a bs( I had 2 at that point) and can honestly say I am not a better pa becuase of it. more employable, maybe, but a few courses in health policy, ethics, research methodology and writing a thesis didn't change the way I do my job on a day to day basis 1 bit. my undergrad thesis in medical anthro was more than 3 times as long as my masters in pa thesis so I already knew how to write a scientific paper.....
but getting back to nurses.....I will take a random adn over a random bsn any day of the week.....I would take a few of the lpn's I currently work with over an adn or bsn....it's all about the practical experience and yrs in practice.....

One of my wife's friends relocated to KC after Katrina and started an ADN program at a local community college while I was enrolled in my accelerated BSN. I spoke with her frequently and I do think her education was better in terms of clinical experience, but I knew more when it came to rationale. I cannot say if this was from the BSN or from my basic science background from first bachelor's degree [in biology].


But yes, her clinical experience was much better.

Originally Posted by Josh L.Ac.

One of my wife's friends relocated to KC after Katrina and started an ADN program at a local community college while I was enrolled in my accelerated BSN. I spoke with her frequently and I do think her education was better in terms of clinical experience, but I knew more when it came to rationale. I cannot say if this was from the BSN or from my basic science background from first bachelor's degree [in biology].


But yes, her clinical experience was much better.

Probably your science background. The BSN completion program I'm finishing doesn't offer much more in the way of science than my diploma program did way back 23y ago. You probably got more hard core science than you would get in a nursing program.

Originally Posted by emedpa

but getting back to nurses.....I will take a random adn over a random bsn any day of the week.....I would take a few of the lpn's I currently work with over an adn or bsn....it's all about the practical experience and yrs in practice.....

I personally think that the more book learning you have, even non-health related, the more "brain power" you have in order to make decisions that translate to better care and decision-making at the bedside.

Not considering any personality differences, which of the following would you want if they all had equal clinical time:

ADN with one year experience
Diploma with one year experience
BSN with one year experience
MSN with one year experience
Ph.D. with one year experience

Originally Posted by zenman

I personally think that the more book learning you have, even non-health related, the more "brain power" you have in order to make decisions that translate to better care and decision-making at the bedside.

Not considering any personality differences, which of the following would you want if they all had equal clinical time:

ADN with one year experience
Diploma with one year experience
BSN with one year experience
MSN with one year experience
Ph.D. with one year experience

Most likely the MSN with one year expereince as the Ph.D. is more research focused.

Originally Posted by zenman

I personally think that the more book learning you have, even non-health related, the more "brain power" you have in order to make decisions that translate to better care and decision-making at the bedside.

Not considering any personality differences, which of the following would you want if they all had equal clinical time:

ADN with one year experience
Diploma with one year experience
BSN with one year experience
MSN with one year experience
Ph.D. with one year experience

the one who was previously a respiratory therapist.....

Originally Posted by RAMPA

the one who was previously a respiratory therapist.....

Go back to your room and play with your knobs...

Originally Posted by wisconsindoctor

Most likely the MSN with one year expereince as the Ph.D. is more research focused.

Yes, but she has more "brain power" available. Remember they all have the same clinical experience.

Originally Posted by emedpa

as a non-nurse(FWIW) I have to agree with this....
if an adn does an online adn to bsn program are they really a better bedside nurse? no. they know how to write a thesis paper or design a study to evaluate the impact of hand sanitizers in the bathroom at a nursing home.
I did a post grad masters degree program for pa's who already had a bs( I had 2 at that point) and can honestly say I am not a better pa becuase of it. more employable, maybe, but a few courses in health policy, ethics, research methodology and writing a thesis didn't change the way I do my job on a day to day basis 1 bit. my undergrad thesis in medical anthro was more than 3 times as long as my masters in pa thesis so I already knew how to write a scientific paper.....
but getting back to nurses.....I will take a random adn over a random bsn any day of the week.....I would take a few of the lpn's I currently work with over an adn or bsn....it's all about the practical experience and yrs in practice.....

Thus, you would take a lpn over a PA as "it's all about the practical experience and yrs in practice"

Originally Posted by prairiedog

Thus, you would take a lpn over a PA as "it's all about the practical experience and yrs in practice"

no, thus I would take some pa's over some doctors.
not the same playing field. I'm talking about groups that overlap in job descriptions.
there are clinicians and there are nurses and other ancillary staff. very different.
and yes, there are some np's I would take over some pa's.

Originally Posted by emedpa

no, thus I would take some pa's over some doctors.
not the same playing field. I'm talking about groups that overlap in job descriptions.
there are clinicians and there are nurses and other ancillary staff. very different.
and yes, there are some np's I would take over some pa's.

Amen!

Originally Posted by zenman

Go back to your room and play with your knobs...

you forgot the about the MDIs.....

Originally Posted by zenman

I personally think that the more book learning you have, even non-health related, the more "brain power" you have in order to make decisions that translate to better care and decision-making at the bedside.

Not considering any personality differences, which of the following would you want if they all had equal clinical time:

ADN with one year experience
Diploma with one year experience
BSN with one year experience
MSN with one year experience
Ph.D. with one year experience

I think you're off your rails on this one zenman, no disrespect.

Originally Posted by fab4fan

I think you're off your rails on this one zenman, no disrespect.

Agreed. My first two classes [and last two classes] of my FNP program are graduate research and advanced nursing theory. It is a total of 6 credit hours, estimate 6 hours of work a week for each X 14 weeks = 168 hours. How much of that is actually going to translate into making me a more effective nurse?


Probably about two hours of take-home, apply it to the job knowledge.



I am not kidding.

Originally Posted by fab4fan

I think you're off your rails on this one zenman, no disrespect.

One of the big arguments you see in nursing is that one degree has more clinical time than another. My argument is you take each level I mentioned above and give each exactly the same hours of clinical what would be the results?

Would a person with less knowledge and one year of clinical be better than a masters person with one year of clinical?

If research courses do not translate to better bedside care, there is a problem. Look at why liberal art grads are so valued by business. Hell, I can apply what I learned in Kayaking class to nursing. But I realize there is a problem in transferring knowledge from one area to another. My teacher wife says she can teach a kid how to study for history and he won't be able to take the same knowledge over to English.

Originally Posted by Josh L.Ac.

How much of that is actually going to translate into making me a more effective nurse?

Probably about two hours of take-home, apply it to the job knowledge.

I am not kidding.

What a great attitude. You sound like the hundreds of pre-nursing students I am surrounded by that constantly bitch that most of their pre-reqs are worthless. Guess what, if you put in a half assed effort I'm pretty sure you won't get anything out of the class and of course you'll be able to say it hasn't helped you be a better nurse.

I had to take a year of calculus based physics to get into pharmacy school, do you think I am ever going to use any of it? I won't be using a catapult to launch the pills into the patient's mouth, so why did I have to learn about gravity, acceleration, velocity, etc? Why? It teaches problem solving skills. It teaches you to evaluate a problem, gather data, formulate an approach, then to solve it and check to see if your answer is logical.

Instead of going into a class assuming you won't learn anything, go in looking for opportunities to learn and apply those things. I have a friend who's been a nurse for 20+ years, she has a half dozen set of acronyms after her name. Do you think she uses every single bit of information she has ever been taught in class? Of course not, but that's more a reflection on the specific type of work she does than on her education. She could manage the entire nursing staff at a hospital if she wanted to. But she doesn't want to do that any more. Were those classes a waste? No, she might change her mind some day. I'd much rather have that knowledge waiting in the background in case I need it some day, than to be stuck in a situation I am clueless about because I wanted to do the minimum in school.

Originally Posted by azPharmD2B

What a great attitude. You sound like the hundreds of pre-nursing students I am surrounded by that constantly bitch that most of their pre-reqs are worthless. Guess what, if you put in a half assed effort I'm pretty sure you won't get anything out of the class and of course you'll be able to say it hasn't helped you be a better nurse.

I had to take a year of calculus based physics to get into pharmacy school, do you think I am ever going to use any of it? I won't be using a catapult to launch the pills into the patient's mouth, so why did I have to learn about gravity, acceleration, velocity, etc? Why? It teaches problem solving skills. It teaches you to evaluate a problem, gather data, formulate an approach, then to solve it and check to see if your answer is logical.

Instead of going into a class assuming you won't learn anything, go in looking for opportunities to learn and apply those things. I have a friend who's been a nurse for 20+ years, she has a half dozen set of acronyms after her name. Do you think she uses every single bit of information she has ever been taught in class? Of course not, but that's more a reflection on the specific type of work she does than on her education. She could manage the entire nursing staff at a hospital if she wanted to. But she doesn't want to do that any more. Were those classes a waste? No, she might change her mind some day. I'd much rather have that knowledge waiting in the background in case I need it some day, than to be stuck in a situation I am clueless about because I wanted to do the minimum in school.

Maybe you should stick that foot in your mouth where is belongs. Josh has a couple of degrees as I recall - according to your profile, you don't have any yet. In addition, he's applying to an AA anesthesia program, so that means he has taken calculus, physics, organic, and biochem as pre-requisites. He obviously has more real-world knowledge and perspective than you do, since he's actuall been out in the real world.

Originally Posted by jwk

Maybe you should stick that foot in your mouth where is belongs. Josh has a couple of degrees as I recall - according to your profile, you don't have any yet. In addition, he's applying to an AA anesthesia program, so that means he has taken calculus, physics, organic, and biochem as pre-requisites. He obviously has more real-world knowledge and perspective than you do, since he's actuall been out in the real world.

But he does have a point. Every single course you take does not have to be directly related to your field, unless you're in trade school. I think some teachers just do not stress how their courses will help you in many areas.

Originally Posted by azPharmD2B

What a great attitude. You sound like the hundreds of pre-nursing students I am surrounded by that constantly bitch that most of their pre-reqs are worthless. Guess what, if you put in a half assed effort I'm pretty sure you won't get anything out of the class and of course you'll be able to say it hasn't helped you be a better nurse.

I had to take a year of calculus based physics to get into pharmacy school, do you think I am ever going to use any of it? I won't be using a catapult to launch the pills into the patient's mouth, so why did I have to learn about gravity, acceleration, velocity, etc? Why? It teaches problem solving skills. It teaches you to evaluate a problem, gather data, formulate an approach, then to solve it and check to see if your answer is logical.

Instead of going into a class assuming you won't learn anything, go in looking for opportunities to learn and apply those things. I have a friend who's been a nurse for 20+ years, she has a half dozen set of acronyms after her name. Do you think she uses every single bit of information she has ever been taught in class? Of course not, but that's more a reflection on the specific type of work she does than on her education. She could manage the entire nursing staff at a hospital if she wanted to. But she doesn't want to do that any more. Were those classes a waste? No, she might change her mind some day. I'd much rather have that knowledge waiting in the background in case I need it some day, than to be stuck in a situation I am clueless about because I wanted to do the minimum in school.

Are you serious? I would love to take classes like cadaver anatomy in my FNP program since it would translate into me being more effective with trigger point injections (and those funny little acupuncture needles too). I would also love to have a real, advanced pharmacology class instead of the barebones one offered in my [soon-to-be-over-on-cinco-de-mayo] FNP program.

Unfortunately, instead of taking those classes [which I cannot take at another school and have it considered "elective credit"], I have to develop my own personal nursing theory with a color graphic representation. Wow. That ought to translate well into practice...which is the entire point.


BTW, I loved my year of calculus-based physics. I never sweat so hard for a B in my life. Granted I didn't have a clue how to study back then...



[Returns to finishing his literature review on "acupuncture in the treatment of chronic low back pain, osteoarthritis of the knee, and headaches" that is due tomorrow night for his advanced nursing research class. Actually going to try and get this published...]


Wait, what did you say about needing to apply myself?

Originally Posted by zenman

But he does have a point. Every single course you take does not have to be directly related to your field, unless you're in trade school. I think some teachers just do not stress how their courses will help you in many areas.

Bro, I have to hit you with an analogy:

You will learn a bit about boxing from jumping rope. It teaches you to keep on your toes plus works muscular endurance. But you know what translates much more into becoming an effective boxer than jumping rope?











Actually boxing.

Originally Posted by Josh L.Ac.

Bro, I have to hit you with an analogy:

You will learn a bit about boxing from jumping rope. It teaches you to keep on your toes plus works muscular endurance. But you know what translates much more into becoming an effective boxer than jumping rope?

Actually boxing.

"Much more" wasn't my point though, just that about any course will help you in some way.

A few years ago there was a bodyworker who was holding seminars where participants worked with cadavers. Might cruise through some massage mags at your local bookstore and see if you can find it.

Originally Posted by jwk

Maybe you should stick that foot in your mouth where is belongs. Josh has a couple of degrees as I recall - according to your profile, you don't have any yet. In addition, he's applying to an AA anesthesia program, so that means he has taken calculus, physics, organic, and biochem as pre-requisites. He obviously has more real-world knowledge and perspective than you do, since he's actuall been out in the real world.

Maybe you should pull your head from your *** before assuming that someone who is pre-pharmacy has never been in school or worked doing anything else. My profile contains jack **** because I have elected to not fill it out. I happen to have 10+ years, 2 degrees, and a half dozen industry certificates in computer science. Half of that time being spent dealing with medical industry equipment and personnel.



Oh and Josh, you're more than welcome to take my cadaver lab for me this upcoming year. I have no desire to have my hands on, in, or near a dead body. I couldn't even handle dissecting a dead cat in general biology.

Originally Posted by Josh L.Ac.

I would also love to have a real, advanced pharmacology class instead of the barebones one offered in my [soon-to-be-over-on-cinco-de-mayo] FNP program.

If that happened, we'd have a lot fewer FNPs.

Originally Posted by Tired

If that happened, we'd have a lot fewer FNPs.

I don't know. I am always picking the brains of the docs at work. I would love to get more education. I actually agree with Josh on this. The closer I look at the NP curriculum, the less enchanted I am. I'm not sure it's going to give me the education I want or need. No disrespect to the NPs here. I don't know if any midlevel degree would at this point.

You can always pick up electives outside of nursing such as over in pharm...I've done that with psych and physiology.

Originally Posted by foreverLaur

I've heard two reasons why there is a nursing shortage.

The first being that there simply aren't enough seats in nursing schools to accommodate all the students who wish to become nurses.

The second being that nurses are overworked and underpaid and therefore are not working as RNs. There are enough RNs to cover the shortage, but aren't working in their field.

Is it one or the other? A little of both? Another reason?

In MY opinion, the reason there is a nursing shortage is because prospective nursing students become CNA's, and think it will be good experience, and then realize that they hate it.

Maybe that is just me....who knows.

I'm here to procrastinate and crash your thread. I feel so incredibly similar about my graduate program. It was 62 credit hours and so full of fluff it was like a Build A Bear workshop threw up in the social work building.

The worst part were the overlapping assignments. Our faculty hated one another so they never collaborated. I had to write THREE AUTOBIOGRAPHIES over the 2 years. Not just something creatively small either... 50 plus page autobiographies, each from a diff perspective relying on different resources expecting different outcomes and different formats for the genograms to accompany each paper. TOTAL waste of my time... though, by the last one, I did finally take it seriously and learn some new stuff about my family.

The idea with the social work busy work was that if we could explore our own experiences through at least 2 15-pg minimum papers per week, we would somehow gain the insight we needed to become effective clinicians. Sad part is... I never get insight through writing... I get it through experiencing, so it was all lost on me. Seriously, I gained 90% of my knowledge in my 1500 hr field experience and got very little, if anything, from the classes.

The only bigger waste of my academic time/dollar came in undergrad. I was elem edu/psych and an edu class, art for the child, required assignments that literally required 15-20 hrs per week outside class time to complete. Paintings, etchings, $200 in supplies, sculpture, etc... stuff that NO elementary school kid could every actually do within the confines of a classroom. Nothing realistic... crazy ho.

Thanks for letting me hijack your thread. My sis is in a MSN program right now and I have 2 aunts who went through it all but never really talked with them about their choices. I guess I missed the opportunity to bond with my sis over the poor use of some class's time.

Originally Posted by fab4fan

I don't know. I am always picking the brains of the docs at work. I would love to get more education. I actually agree with Josh on this. The closer I look at the NP curriculum, the less enchanted I am. I'm not sure it's going to give me the education I want or need. No disrespect to the NPs here. I don't know if any midlevel degree would at this point.

Originally Posted by Whittier2006

In MY opinion, the reason there is a nursing shortage is because prospective nursing students become CNA's, and think it will be good experience, and then realize that they hate it.

Maybe that is just me....who knows.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1210...=2_1566_topbox

This could offer some insight. The gist I got from the article is that there is not a shortage of nurses, but a shortage of pay. The article suggests that now that the economy is slow, a lot of nurses who aren't working as nurses are coming back. So, maybe the upside (money, benefits) of working full-time as a hospital nurse just didn't outwieght the downside (hours, time spent on feet, etc.) until now. The article also shows that this is not the first time we've seen a "surge" of nurses in response to a slow economy. FWIW...

Originally Posted by zenman

You can always pick up electives outside of nursing such as over in pharm...I've done that with psych and physiology.

Zen,


I guess the point I'm making is that I shouldn't have to add classes to the FNP program when they should already be an integral part of the program. My initial goal was to be a FNP specialized in pain management, so I was ready to add classes as electives that would be naturally beyond the scope of a typical FNP curriculum.

But what I found was that the FNP programs do not really prepare the nurse to even function as a basic family practice nurse practitioner. Instead, time is spent on "advanced nursing theory" or writing literature reviews on a topic that is supposed to be later explored in the form of a research project...not to be published, of course, but rather PUT ON A POSTERBOARD AND DISPLAYED FOR THE NEXT UNIVERSITY "NURSING RESEARCH DAY"!

Sigh.


The point of a FNP curriculum should be to prepare the nurse to actually function adequately in practice. But looking at the curriculum, I'm just not seeing it.


Now I have to get back to studying for the MCAT for AA school...

So true, sadly. I have a coworkers going through an FNP program. She says she barely reads and just BSes her way through everything. She scares me. The whole thing scares me, honestly. As I've said before, for my health care I'll stick with a physician.

The thing that also bugs me is her idea that if she can just pass the program that's okay. I repeatedly say to nursing students: "Remember, you're not just studying for a test, you're studying for a career." As someone who wants to be solely responsible for the health care of others, she should have a drive to learn and it disturbs me that she doesn't.

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

The thing that also bugs me is her idea that if she can just pass the program that's okay.

Our instructors in nursing school repeatedly tell us, "remember, C=RN" as if just passing is sufficient. One of my big disappointments with nursing school is that it is so easy. Now, granted, I have a background in Biology AND worked in hospitals for several years before going to Nursing School, but the hardest thing about school is that the instructors have a lot of hoops you have to jump through in an attempt to MAKE it hard (it seems like they really like being able to say a high percent of students fail...).

I am wanting to go on to get my MSN after a few years experience and being an NNP. I was hoping that an MSN program would give me the intellectual challenge...maybe not. Although, maybe NNP will be more challenging than FNP?

Originally Posted by bryanboling5

Our instructors in nursing school repeatedly tell us, "remember, C=RN" as if just passing is sufficient. One of my big disappointments with nursing school is that it is so easy. Now, granted, I have a background in Biology AND worked in hospitals for several years before going to Nursing School, but the hardest thing about school is that the instructors have a lot of hoops you have to jump through in an attempt to MAKE it hard (it seems like they really like being able to say a high percent of students fail...).

I am wanting to go on to get my MSN after a few years experience and being an NNP. I was hoping that an MSN program would give me the intellectual challenge...maybe not. Although, maybe NNP will be more challenging than FNP?

Around here, NNP make as much as midlevel anesthesia providers because in many hospitals, they do many procedures. I can't say anything about their training, but the few that I have met seem seriously high-speed.

It was refreshing, actually.

Originally Posted by Josh L.Ac.

Around here, NNP make as much as midlevel anesthesia providers because in many hospitals, they do many procedures. I can't say anything about their training, but the few that I have met seem seriously high-speed.

It was refreshing, actually.

That's good to hear! I know that most Neo docs really respect them (they get along much better than most NP/MD I've seen). So, I'm hoping that says something as well. I had NO idea it paid as well as anesthesia! I did know there are lots of procedures (which I like).

I think a biology degree would give you quite the head start.

One thing to remember is that you can make it challenging if you want to. Never be the person for whom Cs and mediocrity are adequate. You won't have a different degree as a result but you will be a far better provider.

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

I think a biology degree would give you quite the head start.

One thing to remember is that you can make it challenging if you want to. Never be the person for whom Cs and mediocrity are adequate. You won't have a different degree as a result but you will be a far better provider.

Well, I don't TECHNICALLY have a Bio degree, I needed another Botany class... I think I have a Bio minor except that I didn't fill out the paperwork to get an official minor.

Yeah, Cs are absolutely unacceptable for me. I got a B this semester and vowed that it will be the last time. That B was due to getting complacent and not studying (not slacking off, but not studying AT ALL until the final...).

I have always said that I will work harder and go above and beyond and that extends to my MSN as well. I will be the guy who is taking the extra elective classes like someone mentioned.

My worry is that you can really only judge the fitness of the profession by it's minimum standards. Technically, there are people out there who can do the absolute minimum and still graduate and go on to practice. THAT is what scares me about totally independant NPs. I'm sure there are a lot who know what they're doing, who went the extra mile, but as long as the minimum standards are so low...

Originally Posted by bryanboling5

My worry is that you can really only judge the fitness of the profession by it's minimum standards. Technically, there are people out there who can do the absolute minimum and still graduate and go on to practice. THAT is what scares me about totally independant NPs. I'm sure there are a lot who know what they're doing, who went the extra mile, but as long as the minimum standards are so low...

That's a very good point that Mundinger and her crew lose sight of. It's not the top people who will cause DNP's to be reined in, it's the bottom, incompetent ones. Can anyone say online DNP? As the morbidities and mortalities start rolling in and the evidence is indisputable that the DNP's are ill-trained to handle their roles, then regulations will be put in place and laws will be passed to restrict what they can and can't do.

All we need are a few high profile cases... Why do you think I favor letting NP's and DNP's assume attending positions at major hospitals right now? Let them shoot themselves in the foot.

Originally Posted by Josh L.Ac.

Zen,


I guess the point I'm making is that I shouldn't have to add classes to the FNP program when they should already be an integral part of the program. My initial goal was to be a FNP specialized in pain management, so I was ready to add classes as electives that would be naturally beyond the scope of a typical FNP curriculum.

But what I found was that the FNP programs do not really prepare the nurse to even function as a basic family practice nurse practitioner. Instead, time is spent on "advanced nursing theory" or writing literature reviews on a topic that is supposed to be later explored in the form of a research project...not to be published, of course, but rather PUT ON A POSTERBOARD AND DISPLAYED FOR THE NEXT UNIVERSITY "NURSING RESEARCH DAY"!

Sigh.


The point of a FNP curriculum should be to prepare the nurse to actually function adequately in practice. But looking at the curriculum, I'm just not seeing it.


Now I have to get back to studying for the MCAT for AA school...

Exactly. It shouldn't be dumbed down, but it is. If you're a rogue and ask a lot of questions, people look at you funny. One of my co-workers and I complain constantly about the lack of education in our unit. It's awful. The only education we get is from pinning down docs and asking questions. Some of them will take the time to teach. You just have to know who to ask.

Isn't it aggravating? "Continuing Education" in hospitals involves being checked off on skills annually (yes, I can use a bladder scanner) and reading the occasional obvious article. Whoop-de-freaking-doo.

All while being taught by nurse educators that make more money than me.



Actually we do have some that are high-speed, which makes me thinks they have to dumb-it-down so that they have a high pass rate...which leads us back to where we started.

Originally Posted by Josh L.Ac.

Zen,


I guess the point I'm making is that I shouldn't have to add classes to the FNP program when they should already be an integral part of the program. ..

I hear you but you can't expect much from a profession that can't straighten out their entry level degree...

Originally Posted by zenman

I hear you but you can't expect much from a profession that can't straighten out their entry level degree...

And those who are trying to standardize it can't even manage to promote the BSN without insulting half the profession...

Originally Posted by bryanboling5

That's good to hear! I know that most Neo docs really respect them (they get along much better than most NP/MD I've seen). So, I'm hoping that says something as well. I had NO idea it paid as well as anesthesia! I did know there are lots of procedures (which I like).

Not as well as CRNAs, but as well as first-year attendings where I work. Gotta love the union....

And this is a whole 'notha topic, but I saw an article in the WSJ that talked about a DNP/PhD credentialing/certification exam after graduation that is to be developed in conjunction, and closely mimic the USMLE Step 3.

Pretty sure I don't want to take anything like the Step 3 with only my 0-2 yr old patient population training. I'll leave that to the rest of you.

"Pretty sure I don't want to take anything like the Step 3 with only my 0-2 yr old patient population training. I'll leave that to the rest of you."

a generalist like an fnp or pa should be able to pass something like this without too much trouble. the pa boards are already based on step 2/step 3 so we wouldn't have to add any extra studying. most pa's study for step 2/step 3 and the md fp board prep for the pa boards.

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

And those who are trying to standardize it can't even manage to promote the BSN without insulting half the profession...

Seriously. A Master's degree in anything else is starting to look better all the time, except I'd have to pay for it!

Originally Posted by fab4fan

Seriously. A Master's degree in anything else is starting to look better all the time, except I'd have to pay for it!

Please. An MSN is one of the best degrees a person can have. I'm not a nurse and nor do have any nursing training. The stuff I know about nursing has come from talking to nursing students and from when I worked in a hospital for 3 years.

Sure an MSN may not be "hard," but I would take an MSN over a M.S. in Biology or any other life science field in a split second.

Originally Posted by fab4fan

If that nurse was working that much OT, there should be a BON investigation re: quality of care. No one can work that much OT and be safe.

I agree, but do you have any idea how many hours per week many paramedics work regularly? I know guys who routinely do 80-90hr weeks all year because it's the only way they can provide for their families earning $18/hour (not to mention working in environments far more stressful than a lot of floor nurses).

I have a good idea how stressful nursing is but nurses don't routinely get weapons brandished at them, bitten/spit at, screamed at and threatened by family members, walk in creepy houses to discover rotting corpses, roll up on the scene of an MVA with dad decapitated next to his alert and oriented eight year old, have patients refuse to acknowledge their infection status or give any information at all, etc.

A nurse who isn't overburdened by their patient ratio who is pulling in more than 75K per year doesn't really have a whole lot to complain about from this perspective.

EMTs and paramedics who make $12-19/hr, in fact, do.

Originally Posted by BostonEMT

I agree, but do you have any idea how many hours per week many paramedics work regularly? I know guys who routinely do 80-90hr weeks all year because it's the only way they can provide for their families earning $18/hour (not to mention working in environments far more stressful than a lot of floor nurses).

I have a good idea how stressful nursing is but nurses don't routinely get weapons brandished at them, bitten/spit at, screamed at and threatened by family members, walk in creepy houses to discover rotting corpses, roll up on the scene of an MVA with dad decapitated next to his alert and oriented eight year old, have patients refuse to acknowledge their infection status or give any information at all, etc.

A nurse who isn't overburdened by their patient ratio who is pulling in more than 75K per year doesn't really have a whole lot to complain about from this perspective.

EMTs and paramedics who make $12-19/hr, in fact, do.

Totally agree. the most I ever made as a paramedic was 6.75/hr. they paid us so little because they knew we worked so many hrs(mandated 240/mo as 10 24 hr shifts min).
we all worked overtime. one guy would take off 1-2 days/mo and work the rest of the time....

I missed where this discussion became an RN vs. paramedic competition.

ETA: I agree they're underpaid--just has nothing to do with nurses.

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

ETA: I agree they're underpaid--just has nothing to do with nurses.

Can we stop the love fest please?

They're not underpaid. They're paid at a level matching their degree of education and the availability of others to fill their jobs.

Lots of folks want to be a EMTs. Roll around in an ambulance, "first line" for medical care, wear the cute outfit. Plus it requires pretty minimal education and isn't particularly intellectually demanding. Follow the algorithm and drive to the hospital, if you have any questions, call the doctor on the radio.

The fact that people don't make a lot of money in their job isn't an indication that they're underpaid.

Originally Posted by Tired

Can we stop the love fest please?

They're not underpaid. They're paid at a level matching their degree of education and the availability of others to fill their jobs.

Lots of folks want to be a EMTs. Roll around in an ambulance, "first line" for medical care, wear the cute outfit. Plus it requires pretty minimal education and isn't particularly intellectually demanding. Follow the algorithm and drive to the hospital, if you have any questions, call the doctor on the radio.

The fact that people don't make a lot of money in their job isn't an indication that they're underpaid.

your description is fair for emt-basics, not medics. until you have done it you really can't comment(sorry). paramedics today rarely contact the hospital for medical direction anymore. they are allowed fairly broad autonomy in decisions regarding significant interventions like crichs, RSI, etc some places have medics giving tpa in the field, putting in central lines, even perimortem c-sections....to me that merits better pay than a ups driver or pizza delivery guy....

Originally Posted by Tired

Can we stop the love fest please?

They're not underpaid. They're paid at a level matching their degree of education and the availability of others to fill their jobs.

Lots of folks want to be a EMTs. Roll around in an ambulance, "first line" for medical care, wear the cute outfit. Plus it requires pretty minimal education and isn't particularly intellectually demanding. Follow the algorithm and drive to the hospital, if you have any questions, call the doctor on the radio.

The fact that people don't make a lot of money in their job isn't an indication that they're underpaid.

In most cases, you are paid what you are worth. That is the reality of employment. Most jobs in this world can be done by millions of people. A few jobs can only be done by those trained to do the job. An EMT job can be done by millions of people. A nurse can also be done by millions of people. A doctor can be done by a large amount of people, but only a select amount have the CORRECT KNOWLEDGE AND TRAINING to do the work of a doctor.

An MET that knows how much they will be paid before getting the education and chose to live in Boston, New York, Los Angeles (and other large cities) have no right to complain. Sorry! That is the reality of it. It is a choice of action that a person CHOSE TO DO. A $14/hr job isn't bad, but it won't give you much in the largest citites.

If you want to talk about a job that millions can do that reuires a lot of education and training that is easy work, look at your local family and marriage counselor. Counselor: there is a communication problem in your family. Family: No kidding! Counselor: so tell me about your last argument (verbal).............................

Originally Posted by Tired

Can we stop the love fest please?

They're not underpaid. They're paid at a level matching their degree of education and the availability of others to fill their jobs.

Lots of folks want to be a EMTs. Roll around in an ambulance, "first line" for medical care, wear the cute outfit. Plus it requires pretty minimal education and isn't particularly intellectually demanding. Follow the algorithm and drive to the hospital, if you have any questions, call the doctor on the radio.

The fact that people don't make a lot of money in their job isn't an indication that they're underpaid.

An EMT course is pretty basic, but I thought a paramedic was a two-year degree. Combined with the hazards they face and the hours, yes I think they should be paid more.