Army Doctor & Ranger?

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We just had a LTC come and speak to us about his experiences in the Army as a doctor so far. During part of his talk, he mentioned that at one point, he was with the 1/75th Rangers, and that he was basically a Ranger as well as a doctor. He said that he went to Ranger school, learned everything they learned, did all the training, and went out with them on missions. People may say I'm crazy, but I think that was just about as badass as you can get.

Does anyone out there have reason to doubt anything he told us? If so, I would love to hear it. I would really hate that this is not possible, but I guess I need to know.

Also, assuming this is true, what would be the way to get to this position? Best choice of specialty/residency? Good ideas for making contacts? Anything that you could offer would be helpful.

Thanks for the responses, ya'll.

ArmyDocDude (Yes, from Texas)

Originally Posted by ArmyDocDude

We just had a LTC come and speak to us about his experiences in the Army as a doctor so far. During part of his talk, he mentioned that at one point, he was with the 1/75th Rangers, and that he was basically a Ranger as well as a doctor. He said that he went to Ranger school, learned everything they learned, did all the training, and went out with them on missions. People may say I'm crazy, but I think that was just about as badass as you can get.

Does anyone out there have reason to doubt anything he told us? If so, I would love to hear it. I would really hate that this is not possible, but I guess I need to know.

Also, assuming this is true, what would be the way to get to this position? Best choice of specialty/residency? Good ideas for making contacts? Anything that you could offer would be helpful.

Thanks for the responses, ya'll.

ArmyDocDude (Yes, from Texas)

Are you sure he didn't mean that he was a Ranger first, then went to medical school and became a doctor attached to a SOF unit? He said that he was going out on SOF OPS are as a medical officer, kicking down doors?

If the latter, then that sounds like BS (although it could be done under the table, I guess). Medical officers are perceived as staff. They'd never be allowed to go out with the shooters during a mission, knocking down doors, securing structures, etc. They'd be too much of a liability. They'd be back at the HQ tending to the wounded, and if it's a full-throttle SOF unit, they'll have their hands full!

It's unlikely that the CO of a SOF unit would allow a medical officer to go out on missions with the unit, b/c a) that medical officer probably hasn't been training with said unit for the past 2 years continuously, thus he would disturb the cohessiveness of the unit , and b) no CO wants the death of Medical officer on his head! (especially for doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing, like taking out a sniper!

[Instead, most SOF units have an embedded medic or corpman, in the case of the SEALS, who have gone through the training with the unit and are trained first-responders.]

So if you have such aspirations, I'd advise that you go SOF first, go bust some heads, then go to medical school!

I agree with DrMetal's assessment. What additional benefit could a doc provide on a fun n' gun unit that a combat medic couldn't? (unless of course the doc was packing an FST ).

I am pretty sure that he specifically said that he was a doctor, and volunteered to be assigned to one of the Ranger units. I asked him about the roles he played while out of missions, and he confirmed that he was not the one kicking down doors and clearing houses, but that he would be nearby, and after they had cleared it, would go in and see if anyone was injured.

Originally Posted by ArmyDocDude

I am pretty sure that he specifically said that he was a doctor, and volunteered to be assigned to one of the Ranger units. I asked him about the roles he played while out of missions, and he confirmed that he was not the one kicking down doors and clearing houses, but that he would be nearby, and after they had cleared it, would go in and see if anyone was injured.

Ok, that's more plausible. 'Nearby' can be at their post, anywhere from a 1 to 10 km radius. I still doubt they'd let him go in immediately after the op to treat injured; still too risky, and that's more the job of a medic.

In any case, hey if you're the MO in the rear eschelon treating these guys as they roll in from their ops, in my book, you're still very badass!

Originally Posted by ArmyDocDude

We just had a LTC come and speak to us about his experiences in the Army as a doctor so far. During part of his talk, he mentioned that at one point, he was with the 1/75th Rangers, and that he was basically a Ranger as well as a doctor. He said that he went to Ranger school, learned everything they learned, did all the training, and went out with them on missions. People may say I'm crazy, but I think that was just about as badass as you can get.

Does anyone out there have reason to doubt anything he told us? If so, I would love to hear it. I would really hate that this is not possible, but I guess I need to know.

Also, assuming this is true, what would be the way to get to this position? Best choice of specialty/residency? Good ideas for making contacts? Anything that you could offer would be helpful.

Thanks for the responses, ya'll.

ArmyDocDude (Yes, from Texas)

When I was in medical school, I was thinking about taking a LOA to go do something like this, and talked to a couple of people that had been SEALS prior to going to medical school.

Their take on it was that the .mil invests about $200K in training an MO, and also puts about $200k into training a SEAL. The system is set up to work with those being two different people, and as a result having 2 assets that can't be killed with one bullet. You might be able to make what you want happen, but it will be an uphill battle all the way, and is very unlikely.

Thats not to say that it can't happen, and maybe it has, but it's not common.

If you want to be an operator, do HPSP, then Emergency medicine, or trauma surgery, get out and go contract with Blackwater or Xe or whatever the @#$# they are calling themselves today.

The only reason I suggest doing the .mil on this track is so your secret clearance will be done. That will help you get on with Blackwater/Xe.

i want out(of IRR)

One thing a lot of people don't realize until they've had a bit of experience in EMS/Emergency Medicine, is that out of the hospital, a doctor is generally less useful than a paramedic. There really is no point to having a doctor go into a house to check and see who's hurt. Without assistants, equipment, and diagnostics, the training of a physician is pretty underutilized.

I'm not saying doing "ranger stuff" wouldn't be fun, but this is a good example of someone getting pushed into military med with a vision of something that, even if real, is very uncommon.

On the other hand, I know of at least one doctor who has dropped bombs out of a jet (on a practice range), one that has landed a plane on a carrier, and one that has shot two enemy combatants in the field. So these things do happen, but they are few and far between. You need to decide what you want to do, i.e. be a ranger or be a doc, because the idea of being both is a bit unrealistic.

Hmm, well, just so everyone knows, I had signed on before I heard about this Ranger stuff.

Also, is the training of an Emergency physician really that inadequate? Does the training assume that the emergency doc will always be in a an ideal setting, ie the hospital, with every tool and test he could possibly want? I cannot think of a worse kind of training for an "emergency" doctor. Who has all the supplies and tests needed in a real emergency?

If this is the case, then I am much more interested in first response training. I only thought about emergency med because I felt like it might be a good idea to be able to help somebody medically anywhere, anytime. Not just at the hospital. Most emergencies do not happen at the hospital.

SO, if this really is the case, what suggestions do people have on really good "on-the-spot" training? This is what I want, and surely I can get it somewhere in my "medical school" career.

Also, please keep the Ranger comments coming, they are great.

Originally Posted by ArmyDocDude

If this is the case, then I am much more interested in first response training. I only thought about emergency med because I felt like it might be a good idea to be able to help somebody medically anywhere, anytime. Not just at the hospital. Most emergencies do not happen at the hospital.

SO, if this really is the case, what suggestions do people have on really good "on-the-spot" training? This is what I want, and surely I can get it somewhere in my "medical school" career.

Humble premed checking in... I think what the poster meant by a doctor's skills being underutilized is that you will receive plenty of first responder training doing an EM residency, but you will receive a LOT of other training that is specific to a physician. Medics don't read films or understand all that needs to take place while running a code, etc. Basically, as a physician "on the scene" you are a very overqualified medic, which seems like a waste of resources. On the scene, its mostly just ABC's, and you lack the equipment to do your job properly as a doctor. Like having a nuclear physicist teach high school physics.

Congrats fellow IRR 2 LT. Good luck.

Originally Posted by ArmyDocDude

Also, is the training of an Emergency physician really that inadequate?

Doing tourniquets in the field is just not what the training focuses on. Emergency Medicine is not extremely advanced first aid. It's actually medicine. Someone with hypertension + diabetes coming in short of breath and with chest pain is a lot more complicated that someone shot. Knowing the questions to ask in the history, knowing the tests to run, and knowing the labs to request is why you go to med school. You can max out on the stuff you can do in the field with a bag's worth of equipment pretty quick. That's why even the most intense field medical training courses in the military are less than a year. You just max out what you can do.

Originally Posted by ArmyDocDude

Does the training assume that the emergency doc will always be in a an ideal setting, ie the hospital, with every tool and test he could possibly want?

No, but it does assume you're practicing medicine in a clinical setting. It assumes you'll be practicing medicine and not first aid. You'll do fine with the first aid stuff, but it's not your specialty.

Originally Posted by ArmyDocDude

If this is the case, then I am much more interested in first response training. I only thought about emergency med because I felt like it might be a good idea to be able to help somebody medically anywhere, anytime. Not just at the hospital. Most emergencies do not happen at the hospital.

Most emergencies do not get resolved in the field. The role of "first responders" is not to cure. The role is to keep the patient alive until they can get to a clinical setting. Then the medicine happens.

These are very different career paths. If I fell off my mountain bike and broke my arm in the woods and needed someone to splint me and help me back to the hospital, I'll go with the parajumper or medic instead of the doctor. But if I'm really and truly sick and need someone to diagnose and treat me for anything complex, I'll go with the doc thanks.

Originally Posted by ArmyDocDude

Hmm, well, just so everyone knows, I had signed on before I heard about this Ranger stuff.

Also, is the training of an Emergency physician really that inadequate? Does the training assume that the emergency doc will always be in a an ideal setting, ie the hospital, with every tool and test he could possibly want? I cannot think of a worse kind of training for an "emergency" doctor. Who has all the supplies and tests needed in a real emergency?

If this is the case, then I am much more interested in first response training. I only thought about emergency med because I felt like it might be a good idea to be able to help somebody medically anywhere, anytime. Not just at the hospital. Most emergencies do not happen at the hospital.

SO, if this really is the case, what suggestions do people have on really good "on-the-spot" training? This is what I want, and surely I can get it somewhere in my "medical school" career.

Also, please keep the Ranger comments coming, they are great.

You've got a couple of serious misconceptions about Emergency Medicine. EM residency trains physicians to work in hospitals, because that is where Emergency Physicians work. EM docs are not going out getting jobs as first-responders, that's what EMTs and paramedics are for. Several residency programs have electives in wilderness medicine, some international rotations, aeromedical transport, and some may have a tactical medicine rotation, but these are electives outside the realm of normal EM practice. Most emergencies do not happen in the hospital, but most do come there for treatment.

If you want this kind of extra training, then get first aid, and look into some of the more interesting wilderness and disaster medicine electives for 4th year.

As has been stated previously, your skillset as a physicians narrows substantially once you step foot out of the hospital or clinic. I know of a handful of Operational Medical Directors that run in the field with their EMS agencies, but they generally take on supervisory roles on large scenes, or do essentially what their paramedics do. The only time I can think of where a doctor performed a skill in the field that the medics couldn't involved a surgeon being call in from the trauma center to do a field amputation.

If you really enjoy field ops type stuff and medicine, go sign up and try out for Air Force PJs. those guys are badass and they get GREAT paramedic training above that of normal field medics, along with really cool rescue scenarios ie..water, mountain/snow, jungle, etc.. Its very difficult training though, kinda like SEAL training but u also get a full paramedic course with minor trauma surgery procedures as well. After that you can always go to medical school or get out of the military and sign on with a fire department with no issues. i almost did that myself but I was too lazy to train that hard so i went HPSP instead lol..

Originally Posted by HackFuJones

If you really enjoy field ops type stuff and medicine, go sign up and try out for Air Force PJs. those guys are badass and they get GREAT paramedic training above that of normal field medics, along with really cool rescue scenarios ie..water, mountain/snow, jungle, etc.. Its very difficult training though, kinda like SEAL training but u also get a full paramedic course with minor trauma surgery procedures as well.

What happens to the 90% of the folks who fail out of the course? I would think that the sort of person who would be so gung-ho as to go for PJ would be pretty limited in terms of a high speed Plan B as enlisted air force, no?

Essentially every post on this thread is bogus.

There are 3 Ranger Battalions, each with a surgeon (euphamism) really a GMO. Each Ranger surgeon is expected to either come in with a Tab, (from a prior life) or go to and graduate Ranger school - same school and standards as everone else. If you fail out - you go to a different non-ranger GMO position.

With regards to missions - The Battalion surgeon does go on missions often on one of the first birds in, and establishes an aid station with the Ranger PA usually in walking distance to the shooting. Now that being said, I don't think recently Ranger BN's have been used in their intended capacity and end up pulling security for the Black forces, but in Panama, and Grenada, docs were in the thick of it.

I can think of at least 5 friends/colleagues who have served as Ranger BN surgeons or the Regimental surgeon. Each are very very good physicians, as the discipline and mental toughness it takes to be a Ranger translate nicely to surgical specialties.

There are also physicians with SF, but not at the A-team level- at least not normally.

There also is a cadre of surgeons and ER docs who deploy with SF units - can't go into more detail than that.

Lastly, there are docs with these units as they are likely to be in places where an Air evac isn't realistic and they need to be ready to stabilize and hold patients if need be. I'm sorry but a medic or an 18D cannot do the same to the same level.

Bottom line, is that what the OP heard is factual and really there is no reason to doubt the veracity of the speaker.

Originally Posted by a1qwerty55

There are also physicians with SF, but not at the A-team level- at least not normally.

There also is a cadre of surgeons and ER docs who deploy with SF units - can't go into more detail than that.

This is true. I've spent some time on call to do this, but never had to/got to do it. All I got was to hear the classified briefing.

What is the best way to get to one of these spots? I talking about not only preferred specialty, but people to call, steps to take, whatever. I have heard that I can do an ADT rotation with them in the summer to see if I really like it? Does that sound like a possibility?

Also, this is a GMO spot? Or do they want/need specialized docs?

Thanks, everyone, this forum is great.

These guys are NOT GMO's. They are residency trained, usually ER or FP filling 62B positions. The positions for the Ranger Batts are highly competitive. They usually have their pick of the litter.

Vast majority are tabbed prior to Med school. This is common sense- what command is going to be happy giving their Doc 3-4 months to try and make it through Ranger? Who runs the clinic and sees the troops in the interim?

If you're not tabbed you have an uphill battle ahead of you. Do a residency in primary care ER=FP >IM, get in touch early with the detailer during residency, kick ass on your APFT's, and try to make some connections.

Remember, these guys want board certified docs, not one year wonders.

Good luck.

61N

Most of the posts on this thread are from people who heard things from a friend or heard about it but never known anyone to actually do it.

As a prior service infantry officer whose former cdr is now a current 75rgr rgt bn cdr, there are definitely docs on the ground with them, and who are very close to the fight. Ten years ago, that doc may have been a GMO, but not anymore. They are board certified as 61N said. Also, they do send docs to ranger school if they think you can hack it as a doc with rgt. My buddy, with whom I was a fellow platoon leader, is a ranger instructor in Florida phase and he said they just had two doctors come through... He also said they were not very technically competent with infantry skills. But you learn any of that during OJT. If you want to do it, you can, but you need to be hardcore, score 300++ on the APFT, be able to run far and ruck hard, and start trying to get to know people from that community (find an email contact and try to get to know someone)

So who or what determines whether a doctor who has completed requirements such as Flight Surgeon Course and Airborne Qualification goes to Ranger School? Also, if a doc does not attend Ranger School, what fitness requirements would he have to fulfill in order to work with Rangers? Thanks!

US Army Special Operations Command (USASOC) is always recruiting docs. Basically you would just chat with a recruiter for these units which are located on many major posts. Assuming you didn't have some major red flag in your record, i.e. you can't pass a standard pt test, then they would probably be interested in you. At that point you would talk with the command surgeon, COL Peter Benson, or one of the component surgeons for Special Forces, Ranger Regiment, etc. and go from there. Those folks would dictate additional schooling options (ranger school, Q course, etc). PM me if you have more questions.

Hmm, timely thread revival.

I, too am curious about this. Any further thoughts on this would be appreciated.

PM sent to DocRgr.

As a former member of 1/75th I will say that yes we have a couple of docs and yes they go out on missions with us. They are board certified physicians and in order to be assigned to the regiment they must first pass RASP2. What he said is entirely true. You can be a physician in the Regiment and participate in some of the most unique amazing training exercises.

Originally Posted by DocRGR

US Army Special Operations Command (USASOC) is always recruiting docs. Basically you would just chat with a recruiter for these units which are located on many major posts. Assuming you didn't have some major red flag in your record, i.e. you can't pass a standard pt test, then they would probably be interested in you. At that point you would talk with the command surgeon, COL Peter Benson, or one of the component surgeons for Special Forces, Ranger Regiment, etc. and go from there. Those folks would dictate additional schooling options (ranger school, Q course, etc). PM me if you have more questions.

Thank for the info! I'll def PM you if I have further questions and I'll try to get in touch with someone from that community.

Originally Posted by deezy175

As a former member of 1/75th I will say that yes we have a couple of docs and yes they go out on missions with us. They are board certified physicians and in order to be assigned to the regiment they must first pass RASP2. What he said is entirely true. You can be a physician in the Regiment and participate in some of the most unique amazing training exercises.

I appreciate that info! This looks like something I as well as several others would be interested in.

The LTC was truthful. First you volunteer and get assigned to one of the three Ranger battalions. Then you can go through Ranger program and get tabbed once you graduate. In my day the docs and chaplain were not required to go through the course but were required to go through airborne school. You will not be kicking in doors but will be nearby. When you apply for Army residency you'll be at the top of the list for the tougher residencies to get into, ie Neurosurgery, Orthopedics, because of your Ranger tab and experience.

Originally Posted by airbornedoc

The LTC was truthful. First you volunteer and get assigned to one of the three Ranger battalions. Then you can go through Ranger program and get tabbed once you graduate. In my day the docs and chaplain were not required to go through the course but were required to go through airborne school. You will not be kicking in doors but will be nearby. When you apply for Army residency you'll be at the top of the list for the tougher residencies to get into, ie Neurosurgery, Orthopedics, because of your Ranger tab and experience.

From reading some of the posts above, it sounds as though your chances of being a Ranger as a GMO in the present are very unlikely. Maybe those posts are innacurate?

Interesting thread. I don't know much about the military doc route, so I won't try and muddy the water about that.

I do know that several of my friends (West Pointers generally) did IOBC, Ranger, and then a year with an Infantry Unit and then went to medical school. Between them and the prior service guys, I would think that there would be plenty of guys who are already tabbed to fill whatever requirements the Army has for tabbed physicians. That being said, in the Army most anything is possible if you know the right way to ask a question. I don't think we had any physicians in my Ranger class, but I think there was a Chaplain either in my class or the class ahead of me.

It was without a doubt the most miserable experience of my life (dwarfs Medical School), but it was also the best training I got in the Army. I wish the Army let more people outside of the combat arms have slots. So good luck to anyone that wants to try and do it.

Does someone know if it's difficult to get in Military Army residency? I am on civilian Family practice residency program and plan to apply fir military resdency in July.

[QUOTE=liverman94;12344733]Does someone know if it's difficult to get in Military Army residency? I am on civilian Family practice residency program and plan to apply fir military resdency in July. MOereover, maybe someone in military residency already and I can ask few questions?? Thanks.

It is interesting hearing about these high speed docs. During both of my deployments we had PA's running the show on the FOB's and every once in a while I would see a PA with a SF team. Can anyone out there comment on AF special tactics or Navy Docs that are also being high speed secret squirrels?

Does anyone know if they allow for D.O.'s to go far forward with Ranger Battalions or SF? Or is it strictly limited to MD's?

Originally Posted by Swamapalooza

Does anyone know if they allow for D.O.'s to go far forward with Ranger Battalions or SF? Or is it strictly limited to MD's?

A doc is a doc

Originally Posted by Swamapalooza

Does anyone know if they allow for D.O.'s to go far forward with Ranger Battalions or SF? Or is it strictly limited to MD's?

did u really just ask that question?

Well I figured it wouldn't matter but on another thread a couple people mentioned something about them only allowing MD's and no one rebutted that. That's to my knowledge at least...I haven't had time to go on other threads in a while.

Originally Posted by Swamapalooza

Well I figured it wouldn't matter but on another thread a couple people mentioned something about them only allowing MD's and no one rebutted that. That's to my knowledge at least...I haven't had time to go on other threads in a while.

When they say only "MD's" they mean only physicians. The two degrees are equivalent.

Originally Posted by Swamapalooza

Well I figured it wouldn't matter but on another thread a couple people mentioned something about them only allowing MD's and no one rebutted that. That's to my knowledge at least...I haven't had time to go on other threads in a while.

In the military a doctor is a doctor, MD or DO, it doesn't matter.

The confusion is from regular joes referring anyone who can prescribe Motrin a "doc" whether it's a Medic, PA, NP or a battle buddy.

Originally Posted by DocRGR

US Army Special Operations Command (USASOC) is always recruiting docs. Basically you would just chat with a recruiter for these units which are located on many major posts. Assuming you didn't have some major red flag in your record, i.e. you can't pass a standard pt test, then they would probably be interested in you. At that point you would talk with the command surgeon, COL Peter Benson, or one of the component surgeons for Special Forces, Ranger Regiment, etc. and go from there. Those folks would dictate additional schooling options (ranger school, Q course, etc). PM me if you have more questions.

Connections will carry you far, if you are interested in regiment or SF you need to link up with one of the group/regiment/BN surgeons and get your name out there. They get the first pick of those coming out of residency. They much prefer previously tabbed prior service but if you have the PT and interest you can go far. As far as going out on mission, I go out on anything that company sized or greater but do acknowledge that there are only a few things I do that the medics can't. My role is more in case of a MasCal since we are in IED central. All that said docs cannot go to Q-school (neither can pilots) per army regs. We can go to ranger though and I know a few who have.

Originally Posted by UltimateDO

Connections will carry you far, if you are interested in regiment or SF you need to link up with one of the group/regiment/BN surgeons and get your name out there. They get the first pick of those coming out of residency. They much prefer previously tabbed prior service but if you have the PT and interest you can go far. As far as going out on mission, I go out on anything that company sized or greater but do acknowledge that there are only a few things I do that the medics can't. My role is more in case of a MasCal since we are in IED central. All that said docs cannot go to Q-school (neither can pilots) per army regs. We can go to ranger though and I know a few who have.

bummer

why would you want to? you worked you're a@@ off at least 11 years, if not more, to become a physician. the risk of career ending injury is so high at ranger school...

Originally Posted by sonofva

why would you want to? you worked you're a@@ off at least 11 years, if not more, to become a physician. the risk of career ending injury is so high at ranger school...

M'eh. The school sucks, but it's still a controlled environment and relatively safe. It's primarily a leadership school and good training for anyone that can get it. There were a handful of injuries in my class, but no career enders.

Though I did see a guy intentionally through himself off a small ledge.

The Q course regulation makes more sense as the end result of that process is a MOS change.

Interesting thread. I gathered from reading it that long/short tabbers have advantages applying for SF/Ranger BN Surgeon spots. Does it follow that they have an advantage applying for residencies?

Anyone know if females are eligible for such roles? (AF PJ's, surgeon associated with a Ranger battalion, etc,) Thanks!

to the last of my knowledge it is one of the last "all male places" in the military. However I will confess that was.....8 years ago now when I got out after my 4 year tour in 3/75 and a team leader and squad leader in a line platoon.

But for anyone asking about it - DO IT!! - Kick !@#, take names, and enjoy the suck that comes with it cause it was the best !@#$ years of my life hands down....I am sure the physician side of things is a bit different though, probably less !@#-kicking and more saving.

RLTW

Originally Posted by epsilonprodigy

Anyone know if females are eligible for such roles? (AF PJ's, surgeon associated with a Ranger battalion, etc,) Thanks!

FSTs will get attached to SF units depending on the mission. One of the female surgical attendings when I was a resident was attached to a SF Task Force. I don't think women are eligible for the organic surgeon slots though.

http://www.facs.org/fellows_info/bul...scalco1110.pdf