Discouraged vet student

[sofficat]

To procrastinate studying I looked up a few things online and got to reading about how the vet profession is 'money hungry' and 'greedy.' We all know there are people out there who think vets suck, but for some reason it is really getting to me today.

For example, I came across about.com : veterinary medicine. They have a whole sections on vet med and here is an portion of what I read.
http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/peth.../a/061604a.htm

I spent a few minutes reading these people's thoughts and experiences with their vets and it made me really angry. Someone was upset at a $340 bill where the vet kept and treated a blocked cat for 2 days. Someone else was upset at a $600 (blocked cat again) bill where the cat stayed in the clinic for 4 days AND he was upset that the whole bill was itemized and that the vet charged for every little thing possible. He even stated that he wanted the vet to just 'charge for his/her services' and not find every little thing to charge for. Riiiight. Because that vet didn't personally pay for those catheters and the radiology machine and the surgery table and the cages and the fluids and meds and hell even the freakin rent and electricity bills!! I don't get it. Are people really that stupid? And someone said how if they get sick and have no insurance they can go to the ER and be treated for free but if their cat gets sick and they have no money he/she must be euthanized, and that's just not right.
I could go on and on about the things people say and are upset about.

I want to think that I'll be this amazing vet who makes every client happy because I'll have communication super powers or something, but we all know that will never happen to any of us. I know we can't make everyone happy, but seriously people.

I once wrote down everything needed to place a catheter, so I could show it to people who thing $25 to place an IV catheter is absurd. It had about 20 things on the list- including two (or 3) techs, clippers, alcohol, clipper blade cleaner, gauze, tape, t-port, the catheter itself, vet wrap, the containers needed to hold the chlorihex solution, etc. It didn't even include the table the patient was on or the light bulbs and electricity needed to see, or the thousand dollar set of stainless steel cages the pet was put into afterwards. I think that clients need to see that. I think they need to understand that we don't charge them because we want to be rich, but because we have to pay for every cotton ball we use- but when we do charge for that cotton ball they call us money hungry.

Is there any hope out there??

[luplodw]

I don't think people should compare human medicine to vet med financially because it is YOUR choice to get an animal. If you can't afford it, then you shouldn't have a pet. Get a fish or something instead. The responsibility is on the owner, and i'm sick of people placing blame on the vets!

[cowgirla]

$25 to put a catheter in? I'm coming to your hospital--mine charges $51.

I had a woman the other day, she came in for rabies, FDRCV vaccine, and an abcess that we clipped up, and sent her home on antibiotics for 2 weeks, plus a topical spray. She threw a hissy fit because the bill came to $112, and the whole time I was thinking, "Wow, that's not a bad bill for vaccines AND an abcess."

It's amazing how people think vet should work for free just because they love animals and should only care about their best interest....

[Bearby]

Originally Posted by cowgirla

$25 to put a catheter in? I'm coming to your hospital--mine charges $51.

I had a woman the other day, she came in for rabies, FDRCV vaccine, and an abcess that we clipped up, and sent her home on antibiotics for 2 weeks, plus a topical spray. She threw a hissy fit because the bill came to $112, and the whole time I was thinking, "Wow, that's not a bad bill for vaccines AND an abcess."

It's amazing how people think vet should work for free just because they love animals and should only care about their best interest....

Wow 112 is not bad. To have that done where I'm working it would be closer to 150-175 depending on the antibiotic (liquid vs pill).

EDIT: I just had to add that after reading that article I'm a little peeved. I can't stand that people think that vets are just trying to become rich. If I wanted to be rich, I would go to med school or be a trophy wife. The vet I'm working for right now hasn't even taken a paycheck home the past 2 months because of how bad business has been. I wish that people would spend a little more time thinking about what a veterinarian's responsibility is and what their responsibility is as a pet owner. There are pet insurance companies and carecredit. The purpose of preventative medicine is to avoid having massively huge bills every time you come in to see the vet. Ugh, now I need to go do something because I'm frustrated.

[dgm]

I can understand clients' frustration. Anytime someone's expectations do not match reality, particularly when it comes to money, they are likely to get bent out of shape. A lot of people don't really know how much human medical care costs or why it costs as much as it does. (Truthfully, I'm always shocked at how much the medical services I receive are billed for - and you can bet I'd be pissed if I had to pay for it myself. Thank god I have insurance.) As I understand it, the emergency medical bills of people who can't pay are ultimately are paid by taxpayers, but I don't think people consider that when they are complaining about having to pay for their animals' emergency care. I wouldn't be shocked if the same people that accuse vets of being money hungry would also vote against a tax increase to cover veterinary care for poor people's pets.

Regardless, we'll have to charge enough for our services to stay in business and afford a decent living for ourselves. We will never be able to make everyone happy. Chin up, Sofficat! There will be clients who see your value.

I feel like that just came out in a disorganized mess, but it's finals week and my brain is a bit jumbled.

[sofficat]

Originally Posted by cowgirla

$25 to put a catheter in? I'm coming to your hospital--mine charges $51.

I had a woman the other day, she came in for rabies, FDRCV vaccine, and an abcess that we clipped up, and sent her home on antibiotics for 2 weeks, plus a topical spray. She threw a hissy fit because the bill came to $112, and the whole time I was thinking, "Wow, that's not a bad bill for vaccines AND an abcess."

It's amazing how people think vet should work for free just because they love animals and should only care about their best interest....

What cost WOULD HAVE made her happy?! $112 is great! But, seriously, is there ANYTHING we can do to avoid people getting upset? Even if we tell them every penny we are about to charge them (which is not often possible because we don't know the extent of things until we treat them) would they be better about it?
$25 was over 3 years ago... it's probably changed since then.

Oh- and my favorite complaint was "why do they have to have all those techs?"!!!!!! Yes- that is what vet clinics have... TOO MANY techs!

[CatVet2Be]

Yeah, people don't realize that in an ideal world we would love to help everyone that comes in, but if you can't keep your business afloat you won't be able to help anyone.

Also, I think people don't realize the amount of work it takes to do some of these procedures. It's physically difficult to deal with some of the animals. Try doing an ear flush that requires 3 people because the 80lb lab is flinging the techs everywhere, you come out clawed, bruised and soaked and then the owner complains over the exhorbitant $38 charge. And forget sedation because many won't pay for it.

[sofficat]

Originally Posted by dgm

I can understand clients' frustration. Anytime someone's expectations do not match reality, particularly when it comes to money, they are likely to get bent out of shape. A lot of people don't really know how much human medical care costs or why it costs as much as it does. (Truthfully, I'm always shocked at how much the medical services I receive are billed for - and you can bet I'd be pissed if I had to pay for it myself. Thank god I have insurance.) As I understand it, the emergency medical bills of people who can't pay are ultimately are paid by taxpayers, but I don't think people consider that when they are complaining about having to pay for their animals' emergency care. I wouldn't be shocked if the same people that accuse vets of being money hungry would also vote against a tax increase to cover veterinary care for poor people's pets.

Regardless, we'll have to charge enough for our services to stay in business and afford a decent living for ourselves. We will never be able to make everyone happy. Chin up, Sofficat! There will be clients who see your value.

I feel like that just came out in a disorganized mess, but it's finals week and my brain is a bit jumbled.

Thanks I think I'm just stressed over finals and this really bothered me, especially since I will be graduating (like most others) will debt of about $120,000. AND once I graduate I'll also be supporting my husband who will still be in school for 4 ish more years.

I didn't hear about the tax increase for vet care- was that a real thing or just hypothetical?

[karmapple]

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who takes this personally. The best is when I meet someone new and it comes up that I'm a pre-vet/ vet student, and they launch into a story about how their vet "ripped them off."

There are two mindsets that help me not take it as personally.

The first is to realize that these are the kind of people who complain about fees from their physician/ mechanic/ plumber/ hairstylist/ dentist... just about anyone who provides them a service. For some reason, it is easier to devalue an intangible service than it is when you walk away with a physical product in your hands, like if you bought a TV from Walmart. It's not only vets from which they feel entitled to receive free service.

The second is to remember when people are rude and angry and accuse you of being a crook, they aren't seeing you, Sofficat the person. They aren't seeing you as a real person, the person your friends and family know and love. You are simply Dr. Sofficat, The Vet, an abstract representation of all vets everywhere.

Don't know if that helps you at all, but it is a mindset that helps me cope. Don't forget all those amazing clients that truly will value you, that send cards and pictures and cookies thanking you for everything you do. Concentrate on those.

[cowgirla]

Originally Posted by karmapple

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who takes this personally. The best is when I meet someone new and it comes up that I'm a pre-vet/ vet student, and they launch into a story about how their vet "ripped them off."

There are two mindsets that help me not take it as personally.

The first is to realize that these are the kind of people who complain about fees from their physician/ mechanic/ plumber/ hairstylist/ dentist... just about anyone who provides them a service. For some reason, it is easier to devalue an intangible service than it is when you walk away with a physical product in your hands, like if you bought a TV from Walmart. It's not only vets from which they feel entitled to receive free service.

The second is to remember when people are rude and angry and accuse you of being a crook, they aren't seeing you, Sofficat the person. They aren't seeing you as a real person, the person your friends and family know and love. You are simply Dr. Sofficat, The Vet, an abstract representation of all vets everywhere.

Don't know if that helps you at all, but it is a mindset that helps me cope. Don't forget all those amazing clients that truly will value you, that send cards and pictures and cookies thanking you for everything you do. Concentrate on those.

clients with cookies are the best! We've got one woman who brings us a plate of cookies or brownies everytime she has an appointment....and she's got 4 cats and 3 dogs so we see her a lot! She's always in for something...we don't even charge her full exam fees half the time, because she's such a great client.

[dgm]

Originally Posted by sofficat

Thanks I think I'm just stressed over finals and this really bothered me, especially since I will be graduating (like most others) will debt of about $120,000. AND once I graduate I'll also be supporting my husband who will still be in school for 4 ish more years.

I didn't hear about the tax increase for vet care- was that a real thing or just hypothetical?

No, I just made that up. I just can't imagine the public supporting that, but I think it's what would have to happen in order for vets to go providing all this free service people think their animals are entitled to.

[lailanni]

It's probably awful, but just another reason why I want to specialize. No one expects a specialist to be cheap.

I'm sure there's still sticker shock with specialty care, but I think at least it filters out the people who balk at basic rates.

Nothing will piss me off faster than a client who wants something for nothing. Guess what? I could use some new snow tires. But just because I need them doesn't mean I'm going to get them for free... I need my electric bill paid too, but I don't see the power company giving away free electricity- just because they love their jobs and electricity so much.

A service costs a fee, if you can't afford the fee you don't get the service. Perhaps they should have thought about that before getting a pet. (Don't get me started on owners who pay $900 for ___ breed puppy and get annoyed at the cost of a neuter)

[thereservoirdog]

Clients are always comparing the cost of human medicine to vet med. They actually think WE are the ones overcharging. I remember one client who just blew up when we gave her the estimate for a $200 x-ray. She said she can go to the people hospital and get one for $25. I guess she forgot that insurance covers most of the bill, and if she actually had to pay for her x-ray it would have been way more than $200. I actually told her this, and it shut her up pretty quickly.

[sofficat]

Originally Posted by thereservoirdog

Clients are always comparing the cost of human medicine to vet med. They actually think WE are the ones overcharging. I remember one client who just blew up when we gave her the estimate for a $200 x-ray. She said she can go to the people hospital and get one for $25. I guess she forgot that insurance covers most of the bill, and if she actually had to pay for her x-ray it would have been way more than $200. I actually told her this, and it shut her up pretty quickly.

I heard of a vet clinic nearby who kept a list of prices the local human hospital charges without insurance behind the receptionist desk and anytime a client would get pissy with them (and esp if they started comparing rates) the receptionist would just hand them the piece of paper... kind of a shock when you see a surgery/procedure costing
15-100 x more at a human hospital then what you just paid for your pet.

[cwazy cat lady]

I do think it's because people have no clue how long things take, how much labor is involved (think about cleaning a really heinous kennel or even just preparing meds), and what the supplies and equipment cost...

People think that somehow doing essentially the same thing as we would do for a human somehow automatically should be less expensive because the value of the patient (which is what it comes down to fundamentally) is less in their mind.

The prices quoted thus far have all been steals... really!

I had lunch at a restaurant by myself the other day and overheard bits of a discussion at the table next to me--a group of 6 coworkers from a mobile phone company talking about veterinary bills with the attitude of it being such a rip off. One lady talked about how her husband took the dog to the vet with a major medical issue and the vet quoted them $1400 for some surgery (didn't hear what it was)... Supposedly the husband balked and asked for an itemized estimate. They gave it to him. He took off and went to go price shopping because he was certain he was being ripped off by the clinic. He and the wife called around and found out that they had actually been quoted a great price. So they went with the original vet.

Even still, the guy wanted the price fixed--$1400--even if they found something else along the way or had to alter the course of the surgery based upon how it was progressing. Try doing that at a normal hospital!!!

[DVMDream]

Clients who complain about prices make me mad too. We offer discounted spay/neuter surgeries through the Maricopa County Voucher Program; the only thing we require clients to pay for is a $62 pain package (includes local pain injection around the suture site, pain injection after surgery, and pain medication to go home for about 3-4 days). We also explain to the clients that anything else they want above and beyond the surgery costs extra such as: e-collar, IV catheter and fluids, vaccines etc. since they are paying for surgery only through the voucher. One time we had a dog that after surgery started seizing. After nearly losing the dog and working for over an hour to stabilize her, the owner was pissed that we were actually going to charge them for saving her life. We even set up a really decent payment plan for them so they could slowly pay it off; but they still refused to pay. I also had a client who was pissed because we would not give her dog vaccines for free with a staple removal (the dog was a $1500 pure-bred Akita, she had a Louis Viton purse, and her hummer was parked out in our parking lot). Her vaccine bill came to $75 including the exam. I have gotten used to clients getting mad at outrageous prices but I have learned to calmly explain everything that goes into these prices and the majority of them seem to be ok after I explain it to them; there is still the occasional bad apple but you can’t make everybody happy. I think our vet explained it best, “If you go to the grocery store and want milk, apples, bread and water; but can only afford milk and bread then you can not expect the grocer to give you the apples and water for free.” I would just try to focus on those clients who do value you and what you do; the ones who send cards and cookies and come into the clinic just to introduce the new member of the family. That is what makes the job worth it in the end; knowing that you have helped someone and made a positive impact on their lives.

[HopefulAg]

I think in my practice I'm going to have two columns on the invoice. One for what those items cost at my practice and another for what those items cost on the human side of medicine.

An ECG for my dog cost $50. An ECG for me cost $600.

[scarcelyheard]

Originally Posted by sofficat

I heard of a vet clinic nearby who kept a list of prices the local human hospital charges without insurance behind the receptionist desk and anytime a client would get pissy with them (and esp if they started comparing rates) the receptionist would just hand them the piece of paper... kind of a shock when you see a surgery/procedure costing
15-100 x more at a human hospital then what you just paid for your pet.

That's a pretty good idea.

In Canada, we don't pay for our health services, so it's easy to see why people see a vet as expensive when they can walk into a clinic, leave without paying anything, and then go to a drug store and get their medication for $10 through insurance.

If you can't afford the vet, you can't afford the pet.

I've been trying to get my parents to start an emergency vet fund for our cat, but they refuse to put money aside for her and say that if she ever gets sick enough to need over a few hundred dollars worth of treatment, that she's being put to sleep I just set up a fund for my gerbils, putting my quarters and loonies aside. I feel a lot better going with cash in hand than to put $60 on my credit card :P

Are those pet insurances even worth getting? I've heard good things about it and bad things about it.

[Bearby]

Originally Posted by scarcelyheard

That's a pretty good idea.

In Canada, we don't pay for our health services, so it's easy to see why people see a vet as expensive when they can walk into a clinic, leave without paying anything, and then go to a drug store and get their medication for $10 through insurance.

If you can't afford the vet, you can't afford the pet.

I've been trying to get my parents to start an emergency vet fund for our cat, but they refuse to put money aside for her and say that if she ever gets sick enough to need over a few hundred dollars worth of treatment, that she's being put to sleep I just set up a fund for my gerbils, putting my quarters and loonies aside. I feel a lot better going with cash in hand than to put $60 on my credit card :P

Are those pet insurances even worth getting? I've heard good things about it and bad things about it.

They're worth it if you get it and then your animal is diagnosed with something that needs surgery or lifetime bloodwork and medication. It's also worth it if you plan on doing dentals on your animal (Embrace is the one my clinic promotes due to their coverage of dentals). If you get it and the animal never has any serious issues, it's not going to seem like it's worth it. Putting money aside is the best option I think and CareCredit if you ever need it runs some pretty good no interest payment plans throughout the year.

[turnbackhelly]

Originally Posted by lailanni

(Don't get me started on owners who pay $900 for ___ breed puppy and get annoyed at the cost of a neuter)

to this.

my favorite phone calls are: "hi, i just brought my bulldog puppy home from the breeder - do you know of any place that does vaccinations for free or reduced price?"

sometimes i really want to ask them what they plan on doing when it (inevitably) gets pneumonia and needs a week of ICU care...

[Ben and Me]

The thing I love about the comparison to human insurance is that people are paying a minimum of $100 a month (and that's for a really crappy, high deductible plan...at least for me, and I'm lucky enough have good health) for their health insurance. However, most of it is thru work, so they don't necessarily see those deductions from their paycheck. All they see is their $10 copay...and so, inevitably, thats the comparison that they draw.

[zeebra44]

"I just spent $2,400 on a surgical operation for my dog. Can't I at least get the pain medication for free!?"

That line of thinking is pretty foreign to me, especially since the operation was performed at a specialty clinic by a board certified orthopedic surgeon. Would you ask your medical doctor for a free prescription?

As one vet put it, that's like going back to the car dealership you bought your brand spanking new $35,000 car at and saying, "Heey..can I get free gas?"

[Hollycozza]

The money thing is so frustrating. We don't tend to graduate with such massive debts here in Australia but we do get paid a low low wage relative to our education / responsibility / stress. I just discovered one of our vet nurses gets paid the same per hour as I do to stack supermarket shelves. Its kinda tempting!

There's a checkout operator who always insists on telling you how hard her day has been. I really feel like saying to her "well we get paid about the same, and at [I]least[I] in your job nobody dies!"

[Chetsky]

Unfortunately for me, I just learned that my boyfriend is one of those people. We adopted a kitty and two weeks or so later we noticed he was getting an eye infection. Our regular vet couldn’t get us in for an appointment for five days so we decided to take him to the emergency vet. I told my boyfriend it was going to be expensive and he said “oh yeah I know, it’s ok.” I took him in and the bill (predictably) was about $200 dollars with meds and everything. My boyfriend freaked out when I told him. I asked him how much he thought it was going to cost and his reply was, “like $30.” Well, after a few days my kitty seemed to be getting worse and my boyfriend says “ I hope I get whatever he’s got so I can go to a REAL doctor and they can find out what’s wrong and I can tell the vet.” He kept complaining about the cost so I finally went over the itemized bill with him and he kept saying stuff like “wow that’s overpriced” and “that’s a lot to pay a person that does nothing.” I’m so glad he thinks so highly of my (hopefully!) future profession. Luckily, we took my cat to our regular vet and the stuff they gave us seems to be working.

[sumstorm]

Originally Posted by zeebra44

"I just spent $2,400 on a surgical operation for my dog. Can't I at least get the pain medication for free!?"

That line of thinking is pretty foreign to me, especially since the operation was performed at a specialty clinic by a board certified orthopedic surgeon. Would you ask your medical doctor for a free prescription?

As one vet put it, that's like going back to the car dealership you bought your brand spanking new $35,000 car at and saying, "Heey..can I get free gas?"

Except people do this. My doctor gives me free prescription samples all the time. He can stock me up with a month or two supply of 'as needed' meds...and if I want to fill the actual script, the pharm company has a rebate coupon available.

Or, when I bought my Prius, I was so angry about being jerked around the evening before when we test drove it, that I demanded they throw in a service package through 75k miles (oil change, tire rotations, parts, labor no charge.) By jerked around, I mean we drove an hour to try this vehicle out, decided we wanted it, and were told we had to wait for another couple to decide if they wanted the prius or a different vehicle...the couple wasn't even there, they had received a call from another dealership while we were test driving. After waiting 20 minutes while this couple debated between teh Prius I wanted and a hybrid SUV, I was steamed and walked out. Manager called on Monday (last day of the month, if they don't move the Prius, they don't get additional stock) because the other couple decided to 'wait' on their purchase. I knew that due to demand, he couldn't reduce the cost of my prius, but I made it cost him/his staff/his dealership for his people jerking us around.

It doesn't bother me when people try to bargain, as long as they aren't rude or malicious or disparaging in the process.

[dgm]

Originally Posted by Chetsky

Unfortunately for me, I just learned that my boyfriend is one of those people. We adopted a kitty and two weeks or so later we noticed he was getting an eye infection. Our regular vet couldn’t get us in for an appointment for five days so we decided to take him to the emergency vet. I told my boyfriend it was going to be expensive and he said “oh yeah I know, it’s ok.” I took him in and the bill (predictably) was about $200 dollars with meds and everything. My boyfriend freaked out when I told him. I asked him how much he thought it was going to cost and his reply was, “like $30.” Well, after a few days my kitty seemed to be getting worse and my boyfriend says “ I hope I get whatever he’s got so I can go to a REAL doctor and they can find out what’s wrong and I can tell the vet.” He kept complaining about the cost so I finally went over the itemized bill with him and he kept saying stuff like “wow that’s overpriced” and “that’s a lot to pay a person that does nothing.” I’m so glad he thinks so highly of my (hopefully!) future profession. Luckily, we took my cat to our regular vet and the stuff they gave us seems to be working.

If he's not just teasing, and you're dead serious about becoming a vet, I don't think I'd be adopting any pets or cohabiting with him. I can't imagine being with someone long-term who doesn't respect something I'm working very hard and paying lots of money to be able to do.

[zeebra44]

Originally Posted by sumstorm

Except people do this. My doctor gives me free prescription samples all the time. He can stock me up with a month or two supply of 'as needed' meds...and if I want to fill the actual script, the pharm company has a rebate coupon available.

Or, when I bought my Prius, I was so angry about being jerked around the evening before when we test drove it, that I demanded they throw in a service package through 75k miles (oil change, tire rotations, parts, labor no charge.) By jerked around, I mean we drove an hour to try this vehicle out, decided we wanted it, and were told we had to wait for another couple to decide if they wanted the prius or a different vehicle...the couple wasn't even there, they had received a call from another dealership while we were test driving. After waiting 20 minutes while this couple debated between teh Prius I wanted and a hybrid SUV, I was steamed and walked out. Manager called on Monday (last day of the month, if they don't move the Prius, they don't get additional stock) because the other couple decided to 'wait' on their purchase. I knew that due to demand, he couldn't reduce the cost of my prius, but I made it cost him/his staff/his dealership for his people jerking us around.

It doesn't bother me when people try to bargain, as long as they aren't rude or malicious or disparaging in the process.

I have a problem when people are out to get things for free because a.) they feel entitled to it or b.) enjoy giving people a hard time. And if an owner really cares about the welfare of their animal, they shouldn't complain about the cost for a pain medication prescription after a major surgery was performed. That's all I'm sayin'.

[zeebra44]

Originally Posted by dgm

If he's not just teasing, and you're dead serious about becoming a vet, I don't think I'd be adopting any pets or cohabitating with him. I can't imagine being with someone long-term who doesn't respect something I'm working very hard and paying lots of money to be able to do.

And amen to that. A guy I was seeing couldn't stand dogs or respect my career goals, and well..that was the end of that.

[sumstorm]

Something else that always amazes me is that people do NOT realize that when you are a human without insurance and/or money, you do NOT get the full range of services. Cancer screenings are far fewer for those without preventive care plans.... and cancer masks itself frequently and sometimes the side effects respond to NSAIDs. They must provide you with emergency care to save your life. They do not have to provide you with the best care available or even long term care. They have to return you to a stable condition. We currently have a staff member who needs a kidney transplant.... and it is going to cost a fortune. He isn't guaranteed the transplant even if the perfect match becomes available because the transplant isn't the minimal required care...dialysis is. And he has insurance. I just think few people realize that, even those in the medical system, unless they are treating the extremly poor in an emergency setting and/or have been that poor and that sick themselves.

[sumstorm]

Originally Posted by zeebra44

I have a problem when people are out to get things for free because a.) they feel entitled to it or b.) enjoy giving people a hard time. And if an owner really cares about the welfare of their animal, they shouldn't complain about the cost for a pain medication prescription after a major surgery was performed. That's all I'm sayin'.

I guess I don't have issues with people asking respectfully if it can be included. I get why it can't....but I learned a long time ago that if you don't ask, you don't get.

In other words, I do not think I am a horrible person because I asked for, and got, a discount at a local vet clinic because I am a vet student. If I didn't ask, I wouldn't have gotten it. I think it is wrong to throw a fit or be disrespectful. And if the clinic staff said no, I would have said 'ok, I understand'.... (I did tell them that I am happy to come in and wait to be worked in or get care in whatever manner is MOST convenvient for them.) I don't think it is unreasonable for people to try to get the best care at the best price for themselves or their pets, whether by comparison shopping, asking for discounts, or price matching. Again, as long as it is done respectfully.

[Chetsky]

Originally Posted by dgm

If he's not just teasing, and you're dead serious about becoming a vet, I don't think I'd be adopting any pets or cohabitating with him. I can't imagine being with someone long-term who doesn't respect something I'm working very hard and paying lots of money to be able to do.

He wasn’t joking, but he can be very overdramatic. I think also he was just very scared and upset about our kitty and was badmouthing the vet to make himself feel better. Plus, the only other experience he’s had with a vet was a very negative one. This is the first time he’s ever made comments like this. He’s been very supportive of me wanting to be a vet. He knows how hard it is to become a vet and what the job entails, so it just really shocked me that he would say something like that. I thought he knew better…
Hopefully as I get more experience I’ll be able to explain things in more detail to him about why vets charge for this and that and just the way things work in general. I won’t give up my dream for anything or anyone, though.

[twelvetigers]

I'd poke his eyes out.

[aspiringDVM]

Originally Posted by zeebra44

And if an owner really cares about the welfare of their animal, they shouldn't complain about the cost for a pain medication prescription after a major surgery was performed. That's all I'm sayin'.

I don't 100% agree with this. For one thing, an owner simply may not have the money -- I don't think that just because a person can't spend $5000 on colic surgery for their pleasure horse means they don't genuinely care about their animal. Does that give them the license to pitch a fit about how the clinic is ripping them off? Absolutely not. Is it okay that people think that they shouldn't be charged for medicines and services, or worse, that their pet doesn't need pain medication after it's been spayed? No. Am I going to have any sypathy for the people who pull up in an Escalade, dripping with designer clothes and a designer dog, and who are outraged about the $200 vaccinations? No way. But I do believe that people can make a responsible, educated decision not to go to the ends of the earth to treat their pet and still be kind and loving pet owners.

[Chetsky]

Originally Posted by dgm

If he's not just teasing, and you're dead serious about becoming a vet, I don't think I'd be adopting any pets or cohabitating with him. I can't imagine being with someone long-term who doesn't respect something I'm working very hard and paying lots of money to be able to do.

He wasn’t joking, but he can be very overdramatic. I think also he was just very scared and upset about our kitty and was badmouthing the vet to make himself feel better. Plus, the only other experience he’s had with a vet was a very negative one. This is the first time he’s ever made comments like this. He’s been very supportive of me wanting to be a vet. He knows how hard it is to become a vet and what the job entails, so it just really shocked me that he would say something like that. I thought he knew better…
Hopefully as I get more experience I’ll be able to explain things in more detail to him about why vets charge for this and that and just the way things work in general. I won’t give up my dream for anything or anyone, though.

[Ben and Me]

Originally Posted by sumstorm

In other words, I do not think I am a horrible person because I asked for, and got, a discount at a local vet clinic because I am a vet student. If I didn't ask, I wouldn't have gotten it. I think it is wrong to throw a fit or be disrespectful. And if the clinic staff said no, I would have said 'ok, I understand'.... (I did tell them that I am happy to come in and wait to be worked in or get care in whatever manner is MOST convenvient for them.) I don't think it is unreasonable for people to try to get the best care at the best price for themselves or their pets, whether by comparison shopping, asking for discounts, or price matching. Again, as long as it is done respectfully.

I think, in reality, some people are just bullies. I saw it a lot when I worked reception. They were used to getting their way, and pitched a fit when they didn't. As if I, the measly receptionist, had control over the price of Frontline...

I think that part of the problem is that we live in an era of national stores, where if you pitch a fit, claim that something is damaged, say that you saw a lower price elsewhere, etc. customer service will just discount it for you. Very few people still shop at small businesses anymore, and so they don't understand that a small business can't afford to eat the costs like Wal-Mart can.

People also seem to have some sort of inherent belief that the vet is always out to rip them off. Not the case. The majority of vets just want to a) practice good medicine and b) make your pet better/keep your pet healthy. There is a reason we recommend an annual heartworm test before we'll dispense another year of heart worm prevention...and it isn't to line our pockets. I again attribute this to the national store phenomenon - people aren't used to "shopping" at a store that really does care about something other than the bottom line.

[Shanomong]

I really don't think it's that bleak, guys . I've only worked in emergency medicine, both at the front desk and as a nurse, so believe me I've dealt with a good number of pushy and downright mean people... but they're everywhere. The majority of people do not think the vet is out to rob them. For every 1 that complains there are 2 or 3 of the cookie senders....

A lot of the time I think there are communication lapses on both sides of the exam table, as well as many clients just being upset that they can't afford to spend the money and looking for a way to either make it cheaper or to make you feel as bad as they do in the process. Just try to remember that the majority of people really appreciate what you do, and that statistically vet's rank among one of the most trusted/respected professionals out there! http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/feb07/070201o.asp

And re: the Lexus/Beamer/insert fancy car name here comment... Both in vet school and in jobs I've had we've always been taught not to judge based on appearances. That client in the Beamer could be so far up the wazoo in debt that he is behind on his bills and has extended his credit to the max... and therefore has no way to come up with any money or even get care credit. And I know, he shouldn't have a pet yadayadayada... but sometimes people do dumb things. That's life. And at that point getting angry with the client wont help anyone. And I'm also in the camp that just because you can't afford the best for your pet doesn't mean you don't truly love and want the best for them. Sometimes the desire to save that dog in the shelter from euth or that take that cat on the street in outweighs the logic that someday you might be faced with a big bill for some unexpected occurrence. And I think that's OK.

[Minnerbelle]

Originally Posted by Ben and Me

People also seem to have some sort of inherent belief that the vet is always out to rip them off. Not the case. The majority of vets just want to a) practice good medicine and b) make your pet better/keep your pet healthy. There is a reason we recommend an annual heartworm test before we'll dispense another year of heart worm prevention...and it isn't to line our pockets. I again attribute this to the national store phenomenon - people aren't used to "shopping" at a store that really does care about something other than the bottom line.

Though it does happen sometimes... I took my pets to this one practice for a while in California where the vet WAS always trying to rip us off. They were ranked very high on consumer report as vets who try to rip you off.

They would charge a pretty high office visit fee + $17 for wing trim + $15 for nail trim for my parrots EVEN when my cockatoo didn't need it! She loved getting pedicures so it was a treat for her when I would trim and file her nails. I would just bust out the nail filer, and she would stick her foot out of her cage so i could file her nails... I would tell them I don't want her nails trimmed (they were pretty short anyway) and they'd do it anyway!

They also NEVER told us which blood tests were necessary/nice but unnecessary. They pretty much just did it... and that could be $300/bird. I found out later that some of those tests were completely unnecessary...

They also charged the exotic animal office visit fee for my tortoise, who they just weighed and couldn't even examine because he hid in his shell...

I actually almost got a job with them as a tech, and the wife of the vet who was the manager told me first thing "you always have to remember that first and foremost, that this is a business. yes, animals are cute and nice, and we want to help them and what not, but we are here as a business to make profit" . I'd understand if she were telling me that we always have to keep in consideration that there's overhead costs and equipment costs, and the education level of the vet, etc... and that we couldn't just treat every animal pro-bono... but that's def not what she meant. and this was in an affluent city in silicon valley! it's not like they ever had clients with financial constraints.

needless to say, I declined the job offer there and took my animals to a different vet where they were very honest about what needs to be done with my animals, what our choices were, the pros and cons of each, as well as the price so that we as clients could make an informed decision. plus... they charged a smaller office visit fee which INCLUDED the wing + nail trims for my birds. And since we'd bring our entire zoo there at once, they didn't charge extra for my tortoise...

[dgm]

Originally Posted by Shanomong

And re: the Lexus/Beamer/insert fancy car name here comment... Both in vet school and in jobs I've had we've always been taught not to judge based on appearances. That client in the Beamer could be so far up the wazoo in debt that he is behind on his bills and has extended his credit to the max... and therefore has no way to come up with any money or even get care credit. And I know, he shouldn't have a pet yadayadayada... but sometimes people do dumb things. That's life. And at that point getting angry with the client wont help anyone.

Overall I agree with you, but here are my two cents about the fancy car bit: An expensive car may not be an indicator that a person has money to spend, but if you're up to your eyeballs in debt and you have that fancy car, it indicates to me that your priorities may be out of whack (barring recent financial misfortune, such as job loss or huge medical bills), and so I may get frustrated about that if you're skipping out on basic care that your pet needs. I don't fault people for not blowing gobs of money to save every animal with a serious health issue, but if you drive up in a pricey car and can't afford basic care, I will wonder about your judgment. But you're right, my opinion of the client does not change the situation, so there's no point in fixating on it.

[turnandburn]

Originally Posted by Minnerbelle

I actually almost got a job with them as a tech, and the wife of the vet who was the manager told me first thing "you always have to remember that first and foremost, that this is a business. yes, animals are cute and nice, and we want to help them and what not, but we are here as a business to make profit" . I'd understand if she were telling me that we always have to keep in consideration that there's overhead costs and equipment costs, and the education level of the vet, etc... and that we couldn't just treat every animal pro-bono... but that's def not what she meant. and this was in an affluent city in silicon valley! it's not like they ever had clients with financial constraints.

.

IMO there is nothing wrong with what she said about it being a business and making a profit. We have all made huge time and financial sacrifices just to be able to APPLY to vet school then multiply that by 10 once you are IN vet school. We have every right to earn a decent living given our huge investment in this career. Constantly giving away services for free/undercharging not only hurts the business but the profession as a whole, as it undervalues the services we are able to provide. People don't go asking the grocer to throw in a free loaf of bread just because they already spent over $100 on groceries, so can't they just have the bread for free? People need to have personal responsibility and accountability for the pets that they own.

[Bearby]

As far as judging people, we just had a staff meeting where we focused on this. We, as human beings, look at how someone is dressed, what they drive, what kind of shape their pets are in, etc to determine what their financial state is like. My office manager was reading us this article about how we should all not judge anyone for 5 days. That's ridiculous because I think it's a lot more unconscious than the writer of the article makes it sound. If I didn't make judgements I wouldn't know if a situation was dangerous and would be putting myself at risk. But I digress. Anyway, the point of the staff meeting was that we should offer the same care to each person who walks in the door. We shouldn't assume that someone will decline radiographs or bloodwork just because they are wearing clothes with holes in them. We should offer the best care we can to each client and then tailor it to the clients individual situation if they can't afford the best. For example, if a pet is limping, we will offer radiographs, a PA panel to check liver and kidneys, and NSAIDS (usually Deramaxx). If the owner cann't afford it all, we'll talk about just going the bloodwork and the NSAIDS and if the animal doesn't get better than proceeding with x-rays. Or if that's not an option either, just sending home something like Tramadol and hope it's just a sore leg and nothing broken.

Someone mentioned that there's a reason that they recommend a heartworm test before sending the dog home with more heartworm preventative. So many people have no idea about Merial's guarantee with Heartgard! The dog has to be tested every year and the Heartgard has to be puchased consistently from a veterinarian. If you talk to people about preventative care and show them a cost comparison of $6/month for Heartgard vs $900-1200 for heartworm treatment and discuss the risks associated with treatments or the pet coming down with Leptospirosis or Parvovirus people tend to perk up and realize that you're not trying to make a buck off of them, you're trying to save them money in the long run.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents for today

[dgm]

I agree, turnandburn! What the office manager said sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[bunnity]

Well, I think this brings up a much bigger question. Should medicine be for profit? In human medicine, you have for-profit practices but non-profit hospitals, with insurance companies making profit, but lots of government money covering people at a loss.

I don't think there is a rule that vet medicine, or human medicine, has to make a profit. I understand that this is an unpopular view, but making a salary is not the same as making a profit. I haven't worked out my whole opinion about this, but I think the assumption that practice should always be for profit is premature, and should not be a given in this type of discussion.

[Shanomong]

Originally Posted by Bearby

we should offer the same care to each person who walks in the door. We shouldn't assume that someone will decline radiographs or bloodwork just because they are wearing clothes with holes in them. We should offer the best care we can to each client and then tailor it to the clients individual situation if they can't afford the best.

Someone mentioned that there's a reason that they recommend a heartworm test before sending the dog home with more heartworm preventative. So many people have no idea about Merial's guarantee with Heartgard! The dog has to be tested every year and the Heartgard has to be puchased consistently from a veterinarian. If you talk to people about preventative care and show them a cost comparison of $6/month for Heartgard vs $900-1200 for heartworm treatment and discuss the risks associated with treatments or the pet coming down with Leptospirosis or Parvovirus people tend to perk up and realize that you're not trying to make a buck off of them, you're trying to save them money in the long run.

I think I'm going to hunt down some posters that show that comparison when I have a practice...
I sincerely believe that people generally want to do what's best, they just also want to know that they're not being taken advantage of. I feel the same way every time I go to a mechanic... I know nothing about what they're doing, they're throwing out words I don't understand... but if they sit down and talk to me and tell me exactly why stuff is necessary I'm a lot less combative

[Shanomong]

Originally Posted by bunnity

Well, I think this brings up a much bigger question. Should medicine be for profit? In human medicine, you have for-profit practices but non-profit hospitals, with insurance companies making profit, but lots of government money covering people at a loss.

I don't think there is a rule that vet medicine, or human medicine, has to make a profit. I understand that this is an unpopular view, but making a salary is not the same as making a profit. I haven't worked out my whole opinion about this, but I think the assumption that practice should always be for profit is premature, and should not be a given in this type of discussion.

Interesting side note on this... the AMC in NY is actually not-for-profit. And everyone there is well paid, and they have a fantastic (IMO) intern program. But they're also not privately owned. As an aspiring practice owner, I'm not sure how I feel about this as a standard for all practices...

[jpeterman13]

Originally Posted by dgm

I agree, turnandburn! What the office manager said sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I agree as well. I think that in privately owned practices, making a profit is an absolute necessity. A profit allows for competitive wages for empolyees (inevitably improving the work environment) and it allows for upgrades in equipment. But I think that there is a big distinction between tailoring fees to make a reasonable profit and tailoring fees to rip people off. For example, my dentist told me that she doesn't pull a tooth for someone if it is salvageable because by pulling that tooth, she eliminates any future profit that would result from potential problems with that tooth...and this is someone who makes upwards of $160,000 a year. If she does pull a tooth, she charges a ton so that she can make up for the future lost revenue. I've never run into anything like that in vet med. as of yet.

[Minnerbelle]

Originally Posted by turnandburn

IMO there is nothing wrong with what she said about it being a business and making a profit. We have all made huge time and financial sacrifices just to be able to APPLY to vet school then multiply that by 10 once you are IN vet school. We have every right to earn a decent living given our huge investment in this career. Constantly giving away services for free/undercharging not only hurts the business but the profession as a whole, as it undervalues the services we are able to provide. People don't go asking the grocer to throw in a free loaf of bread just because they already spent over $100 on groceries, so can't they just have the bread for free? People need to have personal responsibility and accountability for the pets that they own.

i totally see what you're saying, but i don't think it was a matter of giving away free services at this clinic. it was about pushing unnecessary treatments/diagnostics onto patients in order to make an extra buck. and no, we NEVER complained about the costs, and just paid what came out in the bill because we totally respected that the clinic did spend their time and resources doing stuff for our pets. but until we went to a different clinic, we didn't even know that NOT doing some of these things was an option. it was more like, "ok, so i'm going to take her back for a blood draw" without explaining really what it was for. we weren't even asked if we wanted it done. the doctor said it was going to be done... so we figured that it was necessary. we didn't feel it was respectful at the time to question that.

for a routine wellness visit for 2 birds and a dog and a tortoise with NO medical issues really shouldn't have cost close to $1000 each year IMO (even without vaccinations). we were quite shocked after the first visit... but we were like "hmmm... oh... well we already have the animals and we're obligated to make sure they're healthy..." i'm sure my parents seriously regretted having these pets at that point, but it was a tad too late for that. I mean come on, especially when I told them that the nail trim wasn't necessary... they still found one nail they thought was just a tad bit longer than they thought it should have been, clipped that one nail and charged the full fee.

we were perfectly happy paying for the services provided by our new vet who made the whole process very transparent. our new vet told us when he thought a test was necessary/useful/or complete waste and explained what he was hoping to get out of those tests. he gave us treatment options from best to worst and the prices for everything. and generally what he recommended was very reasonable. he would say something along the lines of "so this really expensive treatment is an option, but i don't think it's necessary at this point. i think she would do perfectly fine with this one, and it would be half the cost to you." thanks to that, our yearly wellness visits went down to like half the cost with our new vet.

and we felt a lot more comfortable bringing our animals there when we suspected slight problems because we knew they would be honest. we were so scared of what our old vet would do and charge us, that we never brought our animals in unless we were sure that waiting around and monitoring for a few days wouldn't solve it.

totally felt like they were milking my family for all we were worth just because we never complained... not to mention they weren't very nice to our animals either (who are all pretty well behaved)... my yorkie was so submissive she doesn't even respond when babies would give her hair the grip of death and yank, but the only person she's ever snapped at in her lifetime was the vet who yanked on her ears to look inside. that was the last straw before we went to find a new clinic.

[sofficat]

As a person (and a christian) I find I have a struggle with judging people. I never want to, and I consciously try not to, but even when I was out last night and a whole bunch of girls in super short dresses and cowboy/ugg boots came in the bar and I was like "oh great"- I'm sure they are nice girls but I totally judged them! Anyways...

The two clients that stick out most to me as far as reasons not to judge...
-the lady walked to our clinic, was wearing very tattered and old clothes, looked like she hadn't showered in a few days and had a sick puppy. We told her what was up and what the best thing to do was and gave her a quote and she pulled out a wad of cash, counted out the $300 and handed it to us.
-another lady with three large chow-like outdoor dogs, all very 'rugged' (a nice way of saying big gross kinda mean outdoor dogs). The lady herself also looked a little worn. We diagnosed all three dogs with heartworm dz, typed out our heartworm treatment quote, multiplied it times three (gave her a little discount, but it was still close to if not more than $2000), and she agreed to it with barely a hesitation. She even came back for every follow up, and one dog had complications, but all survived in the end.
Moral of the story- don't judge!

[Minnerbelle]

Originally Posted by dgm

I agree, turnandburn! What the office manager said sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I would agree as well, if she hadn't meant "we'll make a profit by taking advantage of our clients' ignorance and charging them as long as they don't complain." I've heard from another tech who worked at that clinic that when the vet was scheduled to euth this dog, he started talking to the dog saying "well oscar, it's really too bad i have to put you to sleep. you were really raking in the dough" and really meant it.

so i'm pretty sure my interpretation of what his wife said was not misconstrued. my point being that there are a few straggler vets out there who really do suck...

[dgm]

Originally Posted by Minnerbelle

I would agree as well, if she hadn't meant "we'll make a profit by taking advantage of our clients' ignorance and charging them as long as they don't complain." I've heard from another tech who worked at that clinic that when the vet was scheduled to euth this dog, he started talking to the dog saying "well oscar, it's really too bad i have to put you to sleep. you were really raking in the dough" and really meant it.

so i'm pretty sure my interpretation of what his wife said was not misconstrued. my point being that there are a few straggler vets out there who really do suck...

You already answered this once - even if you didn't specifically quote me, you had already done so for turnandburn's response, with which I was merely agreeing. If your interpretation of what she said was correct, then yeah I agree with you, but taken at face value I can't find an issue with her statement.

[HopefulAg]

Best lesson against not judging people around here is when you meet one of the rice farmers. They come in with dirty, stained, torn clothing wearing jeans, overalls, and probably don't even own anything else. Yet they pull a wad of hundreds out to pay for treatment. Those guys make bank.

Well, I think this brings up a much bigger question. Should medicine be for profit? In human medicine, you have for-profit practices but non-profit hospitals, with insurance companies making profit, but lots of government money covering people at a loss.

I don't think there is a rule that vet medicine, or human medicine, has to make a profit. I understand that this is an unpopular view, but making a salary is not the same as making a profit. I haven't worked out my whole opinion about this, but I think the assumption that practice should always be for profit is premature, and should not be a given in this type of discussion.

If you couldn't make a profit, how on earth would you ever improve your practice? Retained earnings still count as assets in the form of cash, and that counts as Net Income which is a profit. We aren't subsidized and financed by the government so there's no way a veterinary practice could even survive without a profit.