Top tier school vs mid tier for neurosurgery matching - does it matter?

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I know, I know - the standard line on SDN is that it's your performance that matters, not the school. And I agree that stellar performance at a lower tier school probably beats being at the bottom of your class at a top 10 school.

But here is a true story:

A close relative of mine is currently a neurosurgery resident at a competitive California program. She got into neurosurgery by the skin of her teeth, so to speak. She worked reasonably hard but wasn't a gunner, and partied much of the time. However, she went to University of Washington - ranked #1 in primary care and #6 in research. It took her two years of applying after college to get in there - she turned down an acceptance at a mid-tier med school to keep trying for Washington, and finally got in after two years of working at OHSU doing research.

After med school she didn't immediately match into neurosurgery - the first year post-med school she spent doing a general surgery internship at UCSF, then matched into a program in Texas the next year when a spot opened up at the last minute. She wanted to return to Cali and when a spot opened up at a program here she transferred to this program in California after doing one year in Texas.

So my question is - given how darn competitive it is to get neuro - did coming from U-Dub (as Washington is often called) - likely help her significantly? Since she barely got into neurosurgery after coming out of the middle of her class at the University of Washington, would she likely have never matched into neuro at all if she had been in the same position at the mid-tier school (make the assumption that she would have had identical USMLE scores at both schools)? Her scores, she claims, were merely "high average" in her words.

Okay, enough procrastination. Back to anatomy study. . .

It took her two years of applying after college to get in there - she turned down an acceptance at a mid-tier med school to keep trying for Washington, and finally got in after two years of working at OHSU doing research.

Not sure I want her doing neurosurgery on me.

Also we don't know her: Step scores, AOA status, dean's letter, clinical evaluations, specificity of research.

No. And on top of that, you'll prob. change your mine about 10 times.

This may be from left field, but why was she so gung-ho to only go to the #1 primary care school if she planned on specializing??

Neurosurg is super-competitive no matter who you are...
I agree with the above, you can't base it just on what school, it would be more based on her step scores, interviews, etc.

at its core, this is the same question that is asked several times a week on SDN. check out some previous threads...opinions are always mixed, but the consensus seems to be school reputation matters very little and perhaps in intangible ways such as a residency director's personal biases and experiences with certain schools.

Oh my bad, wrong school. Ignore post.

Neuro isn't my residency dream - not sure what specialty I want at this point.

sassily - she went to a no-name undergrad college in the state of Washington. Partly she wanted a "name brand" med school. And partly Washington had very cheap in-state tuition compared to the mega-bucks tuition at the mid-tier private med school she was accepted at immediately after college.

Columbia would have been a good bet if she really wanted to go into neurosurgery.

Morsetlis - my best friend from undergrad is an IM resident right now. True genius, brilliant guy. Finds internal medicine fascinating but he's really not driven by money at all. Drives the same Honda Civic he's had for 10 years and is totally happy. Wish I could say I was as un-materialistic as he is. The guy's a saint.

Originally Posted by Morsetlis

Not sure I want her doing neurosurgery on me.

Also we don't know her: Step scores, AOA status, dean's letter, clinical evaluations, specificity of research.

Why did you have to include that kind of negativity? I know someone who finished 3rd in his class at Georgetown after taking the MCAT three times and having to apply 2 or three times to get into school. We all know getting in is one of the toughest parts, just because someone gets in on the first time doesn't make them automatically a more gifted doc.

You completely missed the point.

Anyway if you can't figure out by now which posts are sarcastic...

3 from my unranked state school last year

Originally Posted by calimeds

she turned down an acceptance at a mid-tier med school to keep trying for Washington, and finally got in after two years of working at OHSU doing research.

Kinda wondering why she even bothered to apply to this "mid-tier" school only to turn it down.

UWash is a great school, but quite honestly it doesn't have the academic rep of many of the other schools in the top 10. US News rank, yes, but the fact of the matter is that UWash has a harder time attracting top students relative to schools like Stanford and Yale (in part because of their limitation to mostly students from a small number of states). UWash matriculants have the lowest average MCAT of any of the top 10 and also many of the top 20 (I won't say all, beacuse I don't feel like checking my list on the other side of the room). If anything, the fact that UW is ranked number one in primary care could have been a bad thing. Those rankings are heavily determined by the NUMBER of students that go into primary care. If a huge chunk of her class goes that route, a smaller pool of students is going into the most competitive specialties and surgery in general. It is quite possible that UW doesn't pump out that many neurosurgeons, which means that could have hurt her during the application cycle because many residency programs like to rely on the quality of past residents from a given school when deciding who to take.

The school you attend absolutely does matter for residency, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You get more leeway at a top program than a lower one. Now, a terrible student from a top program is not guaranteed by any means, and they are no better off than a top student from a lower school. There will be people from top programs that have to scramble. However, an average student from a top program will do much better than their counterpart from a lower program.

University of Washington is very highly regarded across the country and it's unlikely that their primary care rankings hurt them for surgery applicants. It's more likely a combination of a poor student plus the places she applied to that caused her not to match.

She worked reasonably hard but wasn't a gunner, and partied much of the time. However, she went to University of Washington - ranked #1 in primary care and #6 in research. It took her two years of applying after college to get in there - she turned down an acceptance at a mid-tier med school to keep trying for Washington

So... She turned down other schools, reapplied for two years... and once she got in, she partied much of the time?

Then she had to pull some maneuvers to get into a neurosurg residency...

Wonder if the partying shall recommence.

Originally Posted by calimeds

Morsetlis - my best friend from undergrad is an IM resident right now. True genius, brilliant guy. Finds internal medicine fascinating but he's really not driven by money at all. Drives the same Honda Civic he's had for 10 years and is totally happy. Wish I could say I was as un-materialistic as he is. The guy's a saint.

You don't make much money as a resident. I wouldn't be trying to drive anything better than a Honda Civic as a resident either.

Originally Posted by Beta Cell

You don't make much money as a resident. I wouldn't be trying to drive anything better than a Honda Civic as a resident either.

I'll probably have to drive my 10+ yr old Civic through residency if it lasts that long.

Originally Posted by jbz24

The school you attend absolutely does matter for residency, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You get more leeway at a top program than a lower one. Now, a terrible student from a top program is not guaranteed by any means, and they are no better off than a top student from a lower school. There will be people from top programs that have to scramble. However, an average student from a top program will do much better than their counterpart from a lower program.

University of Washington is very highly regarded across the country and it's unlikely that their primary care rankings hurt them for surgery applicants. It's more likely a combination of a poor student plus the places she applied to that caused her not to match.

I agree that the school you attend does matter some extent but to say it absolutely matters is also incorrect. I also feel a lot of premeds associate school reputation with the US News rankings which is not a good way to judge school reputation. It's more accurate to determine school reputation by what kind of physicians they turn out. Georgetown for example is ranked 30s but is reputed to get double-digit people into ortho. That's the type of reputation you should consider not "ambiguous rankings" like US News.

Originally Posted by Ischemic

I agree that the school you attend does matter some extent but to say it absolutely matters is also incorrect. I also feel a lot of premeds associate school reputation with the US News rankings which is not a good way to judge school reputation. It's more accurate to determine school reputation by what kind of physicians they turn out. Georgetown for example is ranked 30s but is reputed to get double-digit people into ortho. That's the type of reputation you should consider not "ambiguous rankings" like US News.

Not to say that US News is the be-all and end-all for reputation, but it's still the easiest way to compare schools in terms of rankings. And I disagree about what you think is reputable. You can't look at how many match into a certain specialty and say a program is more reputable because, for example, they matched >10 into ortho. There's a lot of confounding factors, like the number of students wanting to apply to that specialty that year and the total number of students in the class (a larger class will obviously be more likely to match higher numbers into various specialties). A better way to look at it would be to compare the number of matches into top residency programs or compare where they send their average students. Also keep in mind that whichever place you choose to go to, you have the best shot to stay there for residency. So if you already attend a top program for med school, your chances of matching into a top program for residency are already increased because of that fact.

Originally Posted by jbz24

Not to say that US News is the be-all and end-all for reputation, but it's still the easiest way to compare schools in terms of rankings. And I disagree about what you think is reputable. You can't look at how many match into a certain specialty and say a program is more reputable because, for example, they matched >10 into ortho. There's a lot of confounding factors, like the number of students wanting to apply to that specialty that year and the total number of students in the class (a larger class will obviously be more likely to match higher numbers into various specialties). A better way to look at it would be to compare the number of matches into top residency programs or compare where they send their average students. Also keep in mind that whichever place you choose to go to, you have the best shot to stay there for residency. So if you already attend a top program for med school, your chances of matching into a top program for residency are already increased because of that fact.

Which is pretty difficult. Finding legitimate ranking systems for all specialties is quite the task. The quick and dirty way that most applicants will end up doing it is to "count the Harvards" as it were. Some of the top residencies for a given specialty are affiliated with medical schools that you probably wouldn't expect.

have you not read the 10000000 threads on SDN regarding prestige factor of a school and matching into a specialty

well, ill tell you anyways: it doesn't matter where you go.

Originally Posted by JokerMD

have you not read the 10000000 threads on SDN regarding prestige factor of a school and matching into a specialty

well, ill tell you anyways: it doesn't matter where you go.

In terms of final ability as a doctor, it might not matter.

It's undeniable, however, that the perception of a school in the eyes of residency directors and the like will have an impact on your match. It's just a fact. Receiving your clinical training at Hopkins provides a different picture to these people than if the majority of your rotations were done at a smaller hospital which serves a less diverse population.

Now, these things don't depend on the school ranking directly or any sort of specific ranking. Although I speak as a pre-med, I feel that residency directors, like any other human beings, will have certain feelings about certain people. If they're simply more comfortable with students from one school, or one area of the country, or whatever, then that will obviously influence their decision.

In the end, I think people who try to draw a line in the sand are being a bit too black and white about this. Going to a top 10 school might not be the end-all, be-all of your future medical career, but it will have some sort of impact.

While reading a previous post in this thread, a convenient way to phrase this crossed my mind: it absolutely matters, but it does not matter absolutely.

Originally Posted by JokerMD

have you not read the 10000000 threads on SDN regarding prestige factor of a school and matching into a specialty

well, ill tell you anyways: There's still no consensus on what degree it matters.

Fixed.

OP: it doesn't matter.

If you have the "right stuff" for neurosurgery, it doesn't matter. Same is true for any elite residency.

And attending a Top 10 med school is no "golden ticket" to anything.

Originally Posted by avo

It's undeniable, however, that the perception of a school in the eyes of residency directors and the like will have an impact on your match. It's just a fact. Receiving your clinical training at Hopkins provides a different picture to these people than if the majority of your rotations were done at a smaller hospital which serves a less diverse population.

Now, these things don't depend on the school ranking directly or any sort of specific ranking. Although I speak as a pre-med, I feel that residency directors, like any other human beings, will have certain feelings about certain people. If they're simply more comfortable with students from one school, or one area of the country, or whatever, then that will obviously influence their decision.

In the end, I think people who try to draw a line in the sand are being a bit too black and white about this. Going to a top 10 school might not be the end-all, be-all of your future medical career, but it will have some sort of impact.
.

I agree with the bolded statements and I feel that they just prove my point. Certain residency directors DO care what school you go to based on their experience with the residents from those schools. Now to say that any med student coming out of a top 10 school will ALWAYS be considered highly is not true. One of the resident directors that gave a talk to our class gave the example of Harvard and Yale. He wouldn't say which but said he would absolutely take kids from one but not the other. Granted this also depends on what specialty you want and the specific program directors. So although your statement of school importance is true, it's not true to assume that using the US News rankings is that helpful... it's not.

I know it's difficult to find info on this stuff but some of this stuff you just know by going to a particular school and the info is not available to premeds. Which is why I stated the Georgetown example. Ortho is big here and well connected. If you want to do ortho, it's a good bet that if you go to gtown you can match there. In that sense it's good to know school rep. but again that's info you can't easily find on the web.

Well, let's look at the 2009 NRMP data for neurosurgery.

US Seniors:
Percentage who graduated from one of the 40 U.S. medical schools with the highest NIH funding:

Matched: 50.3%
Unmatched: 31.8%

Looks like it makes a difference to me. Does it matter as much as boards or AOA status? No, but it definitely matters.

Originally Posted by calvinNhobbes

Well, let's look at the 2009 NRMP data for neurosurgery.

US Seniors:
Percentage who graduated from one of the 40 U.S. medical schools with the highest NIH funding:

Matched: 50.3%
Unmatched: 31.8%

Looks like it makes a difference to me. Does it matter as much as boards or AOA status? No, but it definitely matters.

So,

Instead of focusing on the Top 10 programs from USNEWS, you decided to go with the top 40 NIH funded programs? lol... Such a big swing in rankings, no? Hell, that's the top 1/3 schools on US News...

Does Hopkins give you an advantage over Morehouse? Sure it does.. Does it give you an advantage over Ohio state, Wake Forest, or Colorado? Doubt it. And if it does, I don't want to be at the program. IMO, a 3.75/245 is the same, regardless of what school you went to.

A higher match rate doesn't necessarily mean it was the school's name that did it. Correlation =/= blah blah blah you get it.

Originally Posted by avo

Going to a top 10 school might not be the end-all, be-all of your future medical career, but it will have some sort of impact.

yea, and how good you look also makes an impact. and the weather on the day of your interview will also make an impact....i can keep going on

I actually don't really understand how you guys are making these assumptions. may be i just don't know how to assess the role of your medical school's prestige and getting into a specialty. I'm kinda just basing it on the fact that undergrad university prestige hasn't mattered so far in my med school application process.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

UWash is a great school, but quite honestly it doesn't have the academic rep of many of the other schools in the top 10. US News rank, yes, but the fact of the matter is that UWash has a harder time attracting top students relative to schools like Stanford and Yale (in part because of their limitation to mostly students from a small number of states). UWash matriculants have the lowest average MCAT of any of the top 10 and also many of the top 20 (I won't say all, beacuse I don't feel like checking my list on the other side of the room). If anything, the fact that UW is ranked number one in primary care could have been a bad thing. Those rankings are heavily determined by the NUMBER of students that go into primary care. If a huge chunk of her class goes that route, a smaller pool of students is going into the most competitive specialties and surgery in general. It is quite possible that UW doesn't pump out that many neurosurgeons, which means that could have hurt her during the application cycle because many residency programs like to rely on the quality of past residents from a given school when deciding who to take.

That's b/c UWash doesn't focus entirely on numbers and grades (which tends to be the main focus for a lot of other Top 10 schools). They look at your volunteer work and community service to see if you would fit in with the mission statement of the school. Having lower average mcat scores doesn't mean their student body isn't as good as Harvard's.

Secondly, UW is ALSO ranked #6 for Research ,meaning it's good at both Primary care and research. And to be quite honest, a lot of the other top tens are terrible at primary care (ranking low). I have a family friend at Stanford who hates it there, b/c clinically he knows nothing. All he is bombarded with on a daily basis is the research of his professors.... So I think the likelyhood of somebody at UW have much better clinical training is higher.

Originally Posted by JokerMD

yea, and how good you look also makes an impact. and the weather on the day of your interview will also make an impact....i can keep going on

I actually don't really understand how you guys are making these assumptions. may be i just don't know how to assess the role of your medical school's prestige and getting into a specialty. I'm kinda just basing it on the fact that undergrad university prestige hasn't mattered so far in my med school application process.

This is simply not true. When you're a fourth year going through the match you'll understand it better. Top applicants no matter what school will do well and can match into any specialty. However, top applicants from lower tier schools may not necessarily match (the potential is there) at top programs, whereas top applicants from upper tier schools most definitely will if they want to. Additionally (and more importantly), your average student from a upper tier school will do better than an average student from a lower tier school. That's just the way it is. And where you do your undergrad definitely matters for med school, but it does not count as much as your med school when applying to residency.

Originally Posted by fahimaz7

So,

Instead of focusing on the Top 10 programs from USNEWS, you decided to go with the top 40 NIH funded programs? lol... Such a big swing in rankings, no? Hell, that's the top 1/3 schools on US News...

Does Hopkins give you an advantage over Morehouse? Sure it does.. Does it give you an advantage over Ohio state, Wake Forest, or Colorado? Doubt it. And if it does, I don't want to be at the program. IMO, a 3.75/245 is the same, regardless of what school you went to.

Are you referring to Hopkins or Morehouse when saying it doesn't give an advantage over Ohio State, Wake Forest, or Colorado? Hopkins will most certainly give you an advantage over almost every other program, except for maybe the other top 5 (to 10) programs. Keep in mind that Hopkins will take a lot of their own for residency, so that's a direct benefit that you won't get if you go to Ohio State or the others you mentioned. I understand that other factors are important when deciding which school (location, cost, etc.) but you should at least understand that prestige does matter if you're looking to aim high in the future.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

UWash is a great school, but quite honestly it doesn't have the academic rep of many of the other schools in the top 10.

Absolutely disagree. In medicine UW definitely has the reputation for being a top 10 program.

To the OP. Neurosurgery is a competitive field, but due to its difficult lifestyle many talented students would never consider it. At my school 2-3 of the people considering NS went for other fields that would be considered similarly competitive (ophtho, plastics, radiology).

I think that performing well in medical school (good grades, GREAT research, good boards) are the most important factors into getting into top NS programs. Surgical subspecialties are small fields, so having a fantastic letter from a big name person in NS could take you further than just going to a top program. If you are looking to go to a specific program/location, it is probably more helpful to be a student at that program as some top residencies are notorious for taking residents from their own school.

Originally Posted by jbz24

Are you referring to Hopkins or Morehouse when saying it doesn't give an advantage over Ohio State, Wake Forest, or Colorado? Hopkins will most certainly give you an advantage over almost every other program, except for maybe the other top 5 (to 10) programs. Keep in mind that Hopkins will take a lot of their own for residency, so that's a direct benefit that you won't get if you go to Ohio State or the others you mentioned. I understand that other factors are important when deciding which school (location, cost, etc.) but you should at least understand that prestige does matter if you're looking to aim high in the future.

I'm saying that there's not a big difference between Hopkins and Ohio, Colorado, and Wake Forest. However, there's a huge difference between Hopkins and Morehouse.

I'll give you this though, it looks like 75% of their residents (neurosurgery) at Hopkins received their MD from Hopkins. Talk about an incestuous relationship.

Originally Posted by fahimaz7

I'm saying that there's not a big difference between Hopkins and Ohio, Colorado, and Wake Forest. However, there's a huge difference between Hopkins and Morehouse.

I'll give you this though, it looks like 75% of their residents (neurosurgery) at Hopkins received their MD from Hopkins. Talk about an incestuous relationship.

There's a huge difference between Hopkins and Ohio, Colorado, and Wake Forest. Whether that's fair or not is a completely separate issue. I'm also not implying that you receive a subpar education at Ohio and those others. But all things being equal, a Hopkins applicant looks much better to a residency program director than an Ohio State applicant (it will make their own program seem more prestigious by training these applicants). Certain hospitals, like MGH, have a little more leeway because they value a more diverse class, but you can be certain that they will only take the top students from lower tier schools while the average students have no chance. However, average students from Harvard or Hopkins certainly have a chance or at least have the potential to match at MGH.

And don't kid yourself about Hopkins being incestuous. Every school is like this. They opt to take their own because they know their applicants well and know what they are getting.

Originally Posted by jbz24

And where you do your undergrad definitely matters for med school.

it didn't really matter for me, even though i go to a state school...

btw, i realize that getting a competitive specialty match at a top ranked residency program (hopkins?...i actually have no clue -__-) may require you to go to a top ranked medical school. I get it. BUT, if you just want to match SOMEWHERE in a competitive specialty, then your school's prestige won't matter significantly, right?

whatever, i can't change where i will be going to medical school anymore (its not a top school) so ill just have to make do

Perhaps pre-meds shouldn't be the one's commenting, since they have not gone through the process...

I am a 4th year med student coming from an "unranked" school who is going through the match right now. You'd think I would say that it doesn't matter. However, I can tell you without a doubt that it DOES matter where you go to school. How much it matters is the issue.

I have been lucky to get interviews some of the best programs in IM. At each of these interviews, there were only a few students not from top schools. The worst example I can remember is one well known program where there were only 4 students from lesser known schools out of 39 students. Off of the top of my head I remember 5 from HMS, 4 from yale, 5 from UCSF, 5 from Columbia, a few from Chicago, and a few from hopkins at that interview. This wasn't just a one time occurrence. It happened pretty much at every top tier program I went to.

If school name didn't matter, there would have been a much more diverse group at each of these interviews.

Now, your board scores, your grades and your letters are going to matter more than what school you go to. Each med school will have impressive matches in the various specialties. For instance we match a few to NS each year and a few years ago I remember we matched people to Stanford and Yale neurosurg.

In the end though, it is just easier coming from a top-tier school.

Originally Posted by fahimaz7

So,

Instead of focusing on the Top 10 programs from USNEWS, you decided to go with the top 40 NIH funded programs? lol... Such a big swing in rankings, no? Hell, that's the top 1/3 schools on US News...

Hey smart guy, that's how they break it up in Charting Outcomes in the Match- you know, the publication that the NRMP puts out every few years giving people all that match data. When don't know what you're talking about, that's a good time to shut up.

Originally Posted by Rzarecta

Absolutely disagree. In medicine UW definitely has the reputation for being a top 10 program.

I disagree with your disagreement, but perhaps we can be in agreement about disagreeing?

Originally Posted by alibai3ah

That's b/c UWash doesn't focus entirely on numbers and grades (which tends to be the main focus for a lot of other Top 10 schools). They look at your volunteer work and community service to see if you would fit in with the mission statement of the school. Having lower average mcat scores doesn't mean their student body isn't as good as Harvard's.

This is the same argument people always give for DO vs. MD. I challenge you to find ANY proof, or even evidence, for this statement.

Originally Posted by alibai3ah

That's b/c UWash doesn't focus entirely on numbers and grades (which tends to be the main focus for a lot of other Top 10 schools). They look at your volunteer work and community service to see if you would fit in with the mission statement of the school. Having lower average mcat scores doesn't mean their student body isn't as good as Harvard's.

Secondly, UW is ALSO ranked #6 for Research ,meaning it's good at both Primary care and research. And to be quite honest, a lot of the other top tens are terrible at primary care (ranking low). I have a family friend at Stanford who hates it there, b/c clinically he knows nothing. All he is bombarded with on a daily basis is the research of his professors.... So I think the likelyhood of somebody at UW have much better clinical training is higher.

UW's student body isn't as competitive as Harvard's, if only because Harvard has more to pick from with all 50 states. You make it sound like I didn't realize that UW was 6th for research, but I did say enough that one could infer that it was a top 10. You are equating primary care (which once again, is heavily ranked based on how MANY people go into primary care. Of course many top research schools are low in that regard, they tend to get a lot more specialists) with quality of medical training. Not the same thing at all, not even in terms of training for primary care. The advantage of going to a school with lots of kids going to primary care is that their good reputation (or bad, but we assume good) as residents will help drive your application. Is your friend in his pre-clinical years? If that is the case, obviously he isn't going to know that much about clinical medicine. Columbia has a butt load of clinical correlation and hands on prep in the pre-clinicals, but nowhere near the level that we get in actually clinical training.

Originally Posted by thesauce

This is the same argument people always give for DO vs. MD. I challenge you to find ANY proof, or even evidence, for this statement.

Here's some data against it. According to US News from last year, the average MCAT of a matriculant of UWash is a 10.4 (it was 10.5 in the US News Guide to Medical schools, but that's a few years old) x 3. That's a mighty big difference compared to Harvard's 36 for just being due to looking at volunteering and ECs.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

I disagree with your disagreement, but perhaps we can be in agreement about disagreeing?

We can agree about that.

I should have explain my point better. I consider UW to be deserving of its top 10 status not because of its US News research/primary care rankings, but more due to the strength of its clinical teaching and postgraduate programs. Its patient population is massive (Northwest United State basically), its student body comes from the best of Washington and the WAMI states (not to mention all over the country), and their third year training opportunities are the most diverse offered in the US.

I guess my difficulty was that you didn't provide any reasoning for your statement, which makes it seem quite anecdotal. In my own anecdotal evidence (I attend an east coast school), my school's program directors in plastic surgery, dermatology, general surgery, radiation oncology, all consider University of Washington to be on par with the best programs in the country.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

UW's student body isn't as competitive as Harvard's, if only because Harvard has more to pick from with all 50 states. You make it sound like I didn't realize that UW was 6th for research, but I did say enough that one could infer that it was a top 10. You are equating primary care (which once again, is heavily ranked based on how MANY people go into primary care. Of course many top research schools are low in that regard, they tend to get a lot more specialists) with quality of medical training. Not the same thing at all, not even in terms of training for primary care. The advantage of going to a school with lots of kids going to primary care is that their good reputation (or bad, but we assume good) as residents will help drive your application. Is your friend in his pre-clinical years? If that is the case, obviously he isn't going to know that much about clinical medicine. Columbia has a butt load of clinical correlation and hands on prep in the pre-clinicals, but nowhere near the level that we get in actually clinical training.

This is one of the many ways US News ranks primary care, but not the only factor. It also looks at clinical training and strength

Secondly, the Harvard/WashU student body is only competitive in terms of numbers. A school that hoards every kid with a 37/3.9 doesn't mean anything. I bet UW kids are stronger in terms of their extracurriculars which is just not as quantifiable or empirical.

Look at people's MD applicants profile. So many kids with mediocre EC's and amazing numbers seem to interview at schools like WashU. But look at MD applicants of a kid who got into Mayo or UW, there EC's will amaze you. While I know MDappilcants is not a good way to gauge this type of information as people lie, but it does make you think about things....

The one thing I will agree with you on is that Harvard has prestige and much more than UW. It's historical and a world-renowed institution. But to say that the student body is more competitive in one than the other is just wrong. The two schools just look at a different criteria. You think kids with 37's don't apply to UW. They do, it's just UW rejects them (unless they have the EC's that fit their mission) b/c it looks for a certain type of student.

Originally Posted by thesauce

This is the same argument people always give for DO vs. MD. I challenge you to find ANY proof, or even evidence, for this statement.

K, well my copy/paste function's apparently busted, but check out the Youtube video on the UWSOM admissions page entitled "the application", specifically minute 5:15. As you'll see, the low(er) averages are not necessarily due to a lack applicants with high numbers, as is sometimes the cause for the D.O v. MD stats lag. In fact a large percentage of the class seems to be deliberately picked from the sub-3.5 crowd, which may weigh down avg stats despite respectable number of very well-qualified applicants applying

Originally Posted by alibai3ah

You think kids with 37's don't apply to UW. They do, it's just UW rejects them (unless they have the EC's that fit their mission) b/c it looks for a certain type of student.

This, basically.

Originally Posted by fahimaz7

So,

I'm just presenting the data.

Instead of focusing on the Top 10 programs from USNEWS, you decided to go with the top 40 NIH funded programs? lol... Such a big swing in rankings, no? Hell, that's the top 1/3 schools on US News...

I didn't collect the data. If you have any the pertains to only the top 10, please present it.

Does Hopkins give you an advantage over Morehouse? Sure it does.. Does it give you an advantage over Ohio state, Wake Forest, or Colorado? Doubt it. And if it does, I don't want to be at the program. IMO, a 3.75/245 is the same, regardless of what school you went to.

That's all fine and good. But the fact still remains, people who go to top 40 medical schools are more likely to match than those that don't. Just like US seniors are more likely to match than independents.

You seem to be very agitated by the data. I wonder why?

Originally Posted by amakhosidlo

K, well my copy/paste function's apparently busted, but check out the Youtube video on the UWSOM admissions page entitled "the application", specifically minute 5:15. As you'll see, the low(er) averages are not necessarily due to a lack applicants with high numbers, as is sometimes the cause for the D.O v. MD stats lag. In fact a large percentage of the class seems to be deliberately picked from the sub-3.5 crowd, which may weigh down avg stats despite respectable number of very well-qualified applicants applying



This, basically.

+1, Nice EC's btw, you proved my point earlier

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

A higher match rate doesn't necessarily mean it was the school's name that did it. Correlation =/= blah blah blah you get it.

Of course not. It could be better preparation for boards, or better research opportunities, or more well known faculty for LORs. Of course, many of those things are tied into the rankings to begin with. The fact still remains, top 40 schools have a better match rate.

Originally Posted by alibai3ah

This is one of the many ways US News ranks primary care, but not the only factor. It also looks at clinical training and strength

Secondly, the Harvard/WashU student body is only competitive in terms of numbers. A school that hoards every kid with a 37/3.9 doesn't mean anything. I bet UW kids are stronger in terms of their extracurriculars which is just not as quantifiable or empirical.

1) Does it? I know that it also factors in residency director opinion, which may be because of quality or be confounded by the far more common primary care resident that is from UWash. Also, while numbers are only one factor they do make up 30% of the rank. That's pretty huge. Add subjective evaluation by deans and residency directors and thats another 40%. So 30% is definitely based on numbers and another 40% is potentially based on numbers or actually on quality. The other 30% is based MCAT score, GPA, the number of faculty, and student selectivity.These things don't seem to be direct measures of the quality of clinical training that you are going to get (though I guess we could make an argument for number of professors. Chances of finding a good one increases I suppose).

2) WashU I might agree, but to say that Harvard only hordes high MCAT scores and GPAs at the expense of other areas is just wrong. Plain wrong. Harvard students, on average, probably have better stats and at least equal ECs to the UWash student body with or without considering research an EC. All schools reject high stats people so I don't see UWash as being some saint that looks deeper than other schools. Further, you could make the argument the other direction, that 4.0/38 kids do get into UWash, but they reject UWash for other choices.

Originally Posted by mmmcdowe

1) Does it? I know that it also factors in residency director opinion, which may be because of quality or be confounded by the far more common primary care resident that is from UWash. Also, while numbers are only one factor they do make up 30% of the rank. That's pretty huge. Add subjective evaluation by deans and residency directors and thats another 40%. So 30% is definitely based on numbers and another 40% is potentially based on numbers or actually on quality. The other 30% is based MCAT score, GPA, the number of faculty, and student selectivity.These things don't seem to be direct measures of the quality of clinical training that you are going to get (though I guess we could make an argument for number of professors. Chances of finding a good one increases I suppose).

2) WashU I might agree, but to say that Harvard only hordes high MCAT scores and GPAs at the expense of other areas is just wrong. Plain wrong. Harvard students, on average, probably have better stats and at least equal ECs to the UWash student body with or without considering research an EC. All schools reject high stats people so I don't see UWash as being some saint that looks deeper than other schools. Further, you could make the argument the other direction, that 4.0/38 kids do get into UWash, but they reject UWash for other choices.

Not sure what you're trying to argue. UWash is a prestigious institution and well-deserving of its rank as #6. It's reputation extends nationally and globally. Are you trying to say that they don't deserve to be top 10? What are you trying to base this off of? There's certainly a lot more that makes a school's reputation than its students' MCAT and GPA.