ortho chances

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Originally Posted by bball25

Current 3rd year
step 1: 211
class ranK: top half
3rd yr clerkships: 2 PC+ and 2 H so far, currently on surg
inspiration: scholarship collegiate athlete- basketball (mvp of team, voted player of the year in conference)
non-ortho research (case reports, chart reviews, etc)
volunteer: lots of time spent at Shriner's and working sports events at my school

Originally Posted by calvinNhobbes

Your chances are not good.

True, but maybe better than the avg person with a 211. I'd guesstimate around 65-70% chance of matching given your cold stats and athletics. Which is a pretty big gamble..

If I were you, unless your absolute dream is prestige, I'd rotate at less competitive places known to heavily favor rotators. They do exist.

Originally Posted by bball25

Current 3rd year
step 1: 211
class ranK: top half
3rd yr clerkships: 2 PC+ and 2 H so far, currently on surg
inspiration: scholarship collegiate athlete- basketball (mvp of team, voted player of the year in conference)
non-ortho research (case reports, chart reviews, etc)
volunteer: lots of time spent at Shriner's and working sports events at my school

You should take step II as early as possible and really, really hit it hard. Other people in your class will study two weeks for it in november but you should take a vacation at the end of 3rd year or in June of 4th year and study all month then take it at the end. You really must destroy step II.

Then, for applications, apply to all the programs.

Yeah, I know its a stretch but I'm encouraged to continue on. I have a solid plan b, but I could not live with myself if i DIDNT at least try. I do plan to take step 2 early. I know I need to shoot for the stars on step 2, but I must also be realistic with my testing skills. I coukd swing about a 20-25 point increase (my school's avg increase from step 1 to step 2), but more than that would be rather unrealistic I think, although I have heard stories. DO you think a step 2 in the 230s would open a few more doors? Or does it need to be higher than that? I have a meeting scheduled with the head of the Ortho department at my COM this week to discuss a plan going forward. He is behind me which is nice.

Thanks for the encouragement and realism. Will keep you guys updated.

**BTW several ppl have asked "what are my chance?"...can any of those ppl comment on whether they actually went through with the Ortho match process, got interviews, matched, etc. Thanks.

I recommend you check out the post match threads on Orthogate.

Here's a link to the 2010 match results on orthogate. I don't know much about matching ortho. I matched anesthesia. But I will say you DEFINITELY need to apply to 2 backups: GenSurg and Prelim Surg so you don't do yourself in.

The match threads on orthogate are biased heavily towards all-stars from top 25 schools who want to show internet strangers that they matched HSS. It's hardly a way to guage where the avg ortho applicant stands.

Originally Posted by Eta Carinae

Here's a link to the 2010 match results on orthogate. I don't know much about matching ortho. I matched anesthesia. But I will say you DEFINITELY need to apply to 2 backups: GenSurg and Prelim Surg so you don't do yourself in.

Clearly. That's awful advice.

Applying for ortho is something that you really need to put 100% on. You should not be wasting time making separate personal statments and LOR's for gen surg or anything else. Considering you should do at least 2 and probably 3 ortho rotations where you need to bing it every day, where do you get the time to buid a gen surg application?

There will be plently of solid prelim spots available on scramble day. There is also no shortage of PGY-2 gen surg spots that open up. It's also nopt that hard to find a decent place to do ortho research for a year if that's your thing.

Well thank goodness for Old Trusty.

Scroll to pg 166 and view mean data for ALL Ortho Applicants.

Note:
1. Ave Step I matched = 238; Step II = 241

2. Ave Step I unmatched = 221; Step II = 222.

Originally Posted by Pompacil

Clearly. That's awful advice.

Applying for ortho is something that you really need to put 100% on. You should not be wasting time making separate personal statments and LOR's for gen surg or anything else. Considering you should do at least 2 and probably 3 ortho rotations where you need to bing it every day, where do you get the time to buid a gen surg application?

There will be plently of solid prelim spots available on scramble day. There is also no shortage of PGY-2 gen surg spots that open up. It's also nopt that hard to find a decent place to do ortho research for a year if that's your thing.

Asleep in spelling class?

It is quite common place for applicants to surgical subspecialties to simultaneously apply to Gen Surg in case their plans don't pan out. You have to do twice the work but your other option is not matching.

And FYI, my husband is done with his ortho residency and I did go to med school. I may not know as much about matching Ortho as a prospective applicant, but don't assume I don't know anything

Originally Posted by Eta Carinae

Asleep in spelling class?

It is quite common place for applicants to surgical subspecialties to simultaneously apply to Gen Surg in case their plans don't pan out. You have to do twice the work but your other option is not matching.

And FYI, my husband is done with his ortho residency and I did go to med school. I may not know as much about matching Ortho as a prospective applicant, but don't assume I don't know anything

Solid start by pointing out spelling errors.

Couple problems with what you are saying.

1. It's not common at all for ortho applicants, no matter how solid they are, to apply to >1 specialty. Nothing in my experience as an ortho applicant x 2 and current resident supports this. Nor does the data. Just check out the outcomes table from 2009 if there's any doubt. 657 seniors ranked ortho only, while 87 ranked >2. I can't speak for other surgical subspecialties, but this is ortho we're talking about.

2. People seem to assume that because ortho and gen surg both involve the OR that they are similar specialties. The reality is that the specialties seem to attract entirely different personalities. If your average ortho applicant were to consider an alternative to ortho, I'd wager anesthesia, radiology, ER, and PM and R would be way higher on the list.

3. Not matching the first time is not the disaster you make it out to be. I know from experience. Did it suck? You betcha. But I WOULD MUCH RATHER suffer for a year in some prelim year and try to work my way back into ortho than to take a categorical position in some other specialty and wonder what if for the rest of my life.

It's hard enough to apply to one specialty when you have to do multiple AI's, write a PS, get LOR's from attendings in that specialty, do research specific to that specialty, and go on interviews. Doing that for two separate specialties is a logistical nightmare. You spread yorself too thin, and end up looking like a flake in the eyes of both, potentially.

I hope this met the spelling requirements.

You are of course correct.

Ortho and GenSurg are completely different fields. However for people who are decidedly surgically inclined and don't want to assume the much greater risk of attempting and failing to match into another surgical subspecialty, GenSurg, though independently competitive (and increasingly so lately) provides the most feasible entry way into some surgical practice.

Here is a post that illustrates my point:

As someone who was in your position a few years ago, I can tell you it is a big problem. My home program, and the programs I did aways at interviewed me. Besides those there were only two others that invited me for an interview. I applied widely, but what it came down to is that some programs don't even bother looking at your file unless you meet their magic number. Others may look at your file, but will need to be convinced based on your other data. I was a female applicant coming from a school that was pass/fail for the first two years, so there wasn't a lot to help me there. You will get asked about it on your interviews (I did at every one, and by pretty much every different interviewer). Not matching will be just about the worst day of your life (depending on your other life experiences, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer around the same time, and it helped put things back in perspective). Scrambling sucks, and you probably won't be able to scramble into an ortho spot. You can then choose to do a prelim year, or research, or give up and pick a different specialty. Your school will be pushing you to pick something, even in another specialty, because people without residencies make them look bad. You can then go through the process again a year later, and theoretically continue until you match ortho, pick another specialty, or quit. I opted to do research, got some publications, applied even more broadly, still only got five interviews, and decided if it didn't work out it probably never would and applied to 10 g-surg programs concurrently. Ended up with my first choice g-surg program (figured if I was going to go into my fallback specialty I could at least do it at a place where they didn't treat the residents like crap). Applied for a few openings for second year positions around the time I was doing my ortho rotations since my ortho attendings thought I was a great fit for ortho and offered to write me letters, but nothing panned out. Now I am in my third year, and I have made peace with the way things are. I don't regret trying for ortho, because I really think it is the better specialty for my interests and personality. But, I also didn't want to spend forever trying when I knew there wasn't much else I could do to change my application (rocked step 2, clinical evals were great, did as much as possible with research short of doing it for several years) or my gender (which may or may not have made things harder). That said, if I had been "kinda interested" in ortho, or if I equally liked two specialties, and the other was one where my chances were better, I probably would have saved myself the heartache, headache, and expense of it all.

Link here

I am a 3rd year at a top 30 medical school.

Its pass/fail the first two year so I don't have any grades except Pass.

I am at my med school on an academic scholarship.

Step 1 - 246

I am taking a year off to do ortho research next year

Here is my big problem, so far this year I have all HP except a P in family medicine. I still have 2 rotations to go including surgery (which I am hoping to H).

I don't care where I go to residency, I just want to do orthopedic surgery. Do I have a chance? and what else should I do to increase my chances? Also, what programs are the best to do sub I's in (as in what ones do I have a chance at). My schools administration has been very negative and basically told me that I have no chance of getting in to ortho.

Originally Posted by OrthoIsTheGoal

I am a 3rd year at a top 30 medical school.

Its pass/fail the first two year so I don't have any grades except Pass.

I am at my med school on an academic scholarship.

Step 1 - 246

I am taking a year off to do ortho research next year

Here is my big problem, so far this year I have all HP except a P in family medicine. I still have 2 rotations to go including surgery (which I am hoping to H).

I don't care where I go to residency, I just want to do orthopedic surgery. Do I have a chance? and what else should I do to increase my chances? Also, what programs are the best to do sub I's in (as in what ones do I have a chance at). My schools administration has been very negative and basically told me that I have no chance of getting in to ortho.

I am no expert, but all you've mentioned is: Above the mean Step 1 score and HP in most all rotations thus far (edit: after writing, I noticed you received HP instead of H. This may be why they are saying your chances are not as good).

Not sure how any person could say you don't have a chance. Obviously, with only the given data, you have a very good chance.

Next on the list: Ortho Research, great LORs from big names or positions, elective grades, aways, Step 2, AOA, Class rank, interview, etc.

I wonder why they say you have no chance? There must be something you're leaving out.

Originally Posted by MCAT guy

I am no expert, but all you've mentioned is: Above the mean Step 1 score and HP in most all rotations thus far (edit: after writing, I noticed you received HP instead of H. This may be why they are saying your chances are not as good).

Not sure how any person could say you don't have a chance. Obviously, with only the given data, you have a very good chance.

Next on the list: Ortho Research, great LORs from big names or positions, elective grades, aways, Step 2, AOA, Class rank, interview, etc.

I wonder why they say you have no chance? There must be something you're leaving out.

I think my main concern is the P in family medicine. That P changes my ranking in third year significantly, which means no AOA. I had a preceptor who hated me and in our program your preceptor decides 50% of your grade.

Originally Posted by OrthoIsTheGoal

I think my main concern is the P in family medicine. That P changes my ranking in third year significantly, which means no AOA. I had a preceptor who hated me and in our program your preceptor decides 50% of your grade.

You're fine. AOA is so selective that it's always a minority # of even the accepted applicants. For Ortho AOA was 27.8% of the accepted group last year. Actually kind of high, considering. But still, chillax. You're above average. No reason to stress. At all. Ortho is competitive but it's not as insanely competitive as people seem to think.

Hey, I was just wondering what you all think about my chances...I got a 236 on step I, did research my first summer in med school and plan to do another month this year (3rd yr), presented my research at grand rounds, the physician I worked with presented an abstract that included my name, all A's 1st 2 yrs except one subjective course...the kicker for me is this year: I can't seem to figure out how to get an A on my clinical rotations! I work my butt off, know the stuff, and the stuff my attendings write on my evals looks great! But for some reason I keep getting avg grades from them (mid-high B) and I don't know why...I have had neuro, psych, medicine so far and am about to finish surgery (hopefully I will get an A on this one). It's really frustrating because several of my classmates seem to be getting better grades without doing anything...Do you guys think I will be competitive for ortho if I don't have a lot of A's this year? Any suggestions on how to get this elusive grade other than working hard and doing well on the shelf??

Sorry for another 'What are my chances?' post, but as a third year, I'm starting to think about where to end up.

I want to do an allopathic ortho program with the option of a trauma/critical care fellowship later down the line.

Pros - 244/99 USMLE step 1, 680/95 COMLEX step 1, all honors so far, top 5 class rank.
Cons - I go to a DO school.

Think I can land an allopathic residency? I continually hear that it's next to impossible for a DO to get an allopathic spot. It frustrates me quite a bit because I didn't come to the realization I wanted to be a physician until after college and after my 2.83 college GPA.

Is there any site that hosts the average scores of their program/residents?

Since Ortho is extremely rare for IMG...Is there a chance of ortho fellowship after GS ? orn any other ways ?

Originally Posted by all stock

Is there any site that hosts the average scores of their program/residents?

....I doubt if such site exist. Try orthogate.org forum.

thanks blkpa2md, i checked orthogate briefly and found one DO who applied to 50+ allo programs, interviewed 7 and offered 2. he was top 5%, 247/259, all honors, excellent LORs, AND he was an ortho PA for 3 years prior.

hmm, chances feel a little slim. and it was brought up about him

Good:
Step 1 230
1 first author pub in orth.

Bad:
LOA halfway thru second year because of sick mom.

Chances?

So I have been interested in a competitive non-ortho-field (NOF) since day one. I was pretty much set on going this NOF route but my mind seems to be changing. After my gen surgery rotation, which I didn't really enjoy that much, I did an ortho rotation. During those 4 weeks, I realized how much I enjoyed ortho. Not only did I really enjoy scrubbing on cases, but i felt more comfortable with the residents and attendings (better personality fit).

The issue is that, over the past 2.5 years, I have all but committed myself to this NOF department. I have gone to Grand Rounds, gotten to know the faculty and residents, and done research in the field. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the NOF, but I think I feel better about ortho.

I am wondering how my chances are with the below stats and circumstances. As well as, how I could give myself the best opportunity at matching into ortho.

Current: 3rd year
step 1: 235

class rank: Somewhere in the middle

3rd yr clerkships: Ps and HPs

Non-ortho research (case reports, chart reviews, etc): Currently doing projects in the other field that I was interested in. Doing them with a well known doc that gets published in big journals. Also, working on a G-surg case report. Taking a month off because i want to get into chart review work for [field] or ortho.

volunteer: president of a volunteer program at my med school

Unique quality: have played on and captained the undergrad university's club ______ team (anonymity) during first three years of medical school.

Originally Posted by Eggsettera

So I have been interested in a competitive non-ortho-field (NOF) since day one. I was pretty much set on going this NOF route but my mind seems to be changing. After my gen surgery rotation, which I didn't really enjoy that much, I did an ortho rotation. During those 4 weeks, I realized how much I enjoyed ortho. Not only did I really enjoy scrubbing on cases, but i felt more comfortable with the residents and attendings (better personality fit).

The issue is that, over the past 2.5 years, I have all but committed myself to this NOF department. I have gone to Grand Rounds, gotten to know the faculty and residents, and done research in the field. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the NOF, but I think I feel better about ortho.

I am wondering how my chances are with the below stats and circumstances. As well as, how I could give myself the best opportunity at matching into ortho.

Current: 3rd year
step 1: 235

class rank: Somewhere in the middle

3rd yr clerkships: Ps and HPs

Non-ortho research (case reports, chart reviews, etc): Currently doing projects in the other field that I was interested in. Doing them with a well known doc that gets published in big journals. Also, working on a G-surg case report. Taking a month off because i want to get into chart review work for [field] or ortho.

volunteer: president of a volunteer program at my med school

Unique quality: have played on and captained the undergrad university's club ______ team (anonymity) during first three years of medical school.

I think you still have a chance but if I were in your shoes I would take Step II early and try to do very well. Your Step I is below average for ortho and you don't have any honors yet for your clerkship grades. Try as hard as you can to honor what rotations you have left. Also I would try to jump on at least one ortho research project. Some biomechanics projects can be started and finished in a relatively short period of time so that might be something to look into. Many interviews have a room dedicated to research and they'd probably be more interested in talking about ortho research than some NOF research. If you look at charting outcomes in the match you'll see that not everyone who matches is a 260 step I with multiple pubs and AOA.

Originally Posted by kdburton

I think you still have a chance but if I were in your shoes I would take Step II early and try to do very well. Your Step I is below average for ortho and you don't have any honors yet for your clerkship grades. Try as hard as you can to honor what rotations you have left. Also I would try to jump on at least one ortho research project. Some biomechanics projects can be started and finished in a relatively short period of time so that might be something to look into. Many interviews have a room dedicated to research and they'd probably be more interested in talking about ortho research than some NOF research. If you look at charting outcomes in the match you'll see that not everyone who matches is a 260 step I with multiple pubs and AOA.

Will taking Step II help early really help? at 235 I am not far off the average step 1 score for ortho AND I am just not sure i see a better step 2 score getting me more or better interviews than i would be offered without it (ie. i don't think wash u is going to decide im worthy of an interview just because I bumped my step score 20 points). am i wrong in that thought process?

Hey forum,

Was wondering if I have any chance at the top 15 programs. I go to a State school in the south.
Stats: 255 Step 1, Honored all clerkships thus far (Psych and OB/GYN left). First 2 years were P/F.
Research: one poster presentation, no publications, not much there.
Do I have a shot at the top places (HJD, HSS, Jeff)?
Thank you!

Originally Posted by Eggsettera

Will taking Step II help early really help? at 235 I am not far off the average step 1 score for ortho AND I am just not sure i see a better step 2 score getting me more or better interviews than i would be offered without it (ie. i don't think wash u is going to decide im worthy of an interview just because I bumped my step score 20 points). am i wrong in that thought process?

I scored about where you were at for Step 1 and I took Step 2 early (September) and scored >270. Its been brought up in every interview I've been on and at one top-tier program the chairman flat out told me that he wouldn't have interviewed me if I had not taken Step 2 early and did well. Furthermore there are some programs (i.e. Orlando) that will not even consider your for an interview unless you've taken Step 2. More and more programs are requiring Step 2 to rank and word on the street from some program directors is that there was a significantly higher number of applicants this year who had early Step 2 scores (and many of them had great Step 1 scores to boot). I didn't even apply to Wash U so I can't speak for them, but your Step 1 score is below average for ortho so it certainly can only help. Like I said I was below the average for ortho on Step 1 and with my Step 2 score I scored interviews at places like Mayo, Brown, etc.

Originally Posted by kdburton

I scored about where you were at for Step 1 and I took Step 2 early (September) and scored >270. Its been brought up in every interview I've been on and at one top-tier program the chairman flat out told me that he wouldn't have interviewed me if I had not taken Step 2 early and did well. Furthermore there are some programs (i.e. Orlando) that will not even consider your for an interview unless you've taken Step 2. More and more programs are requiring Step 2 to rank and word on the street from some program directors is that there was a significantly higher number of applicants this year who had early Step 2 scores (and many of them had great Step 1 scores to boot). I didn't even apply to Wash U so I can't speak for them, but your Step 1 score is below average for ortho so it certainly can only help. Like I said I was below the average for ortho on Step 1 and with my Step 2 score I scored interviews at places like Mayo, Brown, etc.

informative post. thank you.

Kilgorian... are you from bako? me too!! haha saw you graduated from CSUBako 1997

How many programs should I apply to? I honestly don't care where I end up. I just want to match lol.

Mid-Tier School
All H/HP first 2 years
So far, a mix of H/HP/P in 3rd year, I have yet to take surgery.
Step 1: 240
Step 2: Scheduled for Sept
Research: Neurosurgery award/Summer fellow, but no pub

Originally Posted by kdburton

I scored about where you were at for Step 1 and I took Step 2 early (September) and scored >270. Its been brought up in every interview I've been on and at one top-tier program the chairman flat out told me that he wouldn't have interviewed me if I had not taken Step 2 early and did well. Furthermore there are some programs (i.e. Orlando) that will not even consider your for an interview unless you've taken Step 2. More and more programs are requiring Step 2 to rank and word on the street from some program directors is that there was a significantly higher number of applicants this year who had early Step 2 scores (and many of them had great Step 1 scores to boot). I didn't even apply to Wash U so I can't speak for them, but your Step 1 score is below average for ortho so it certainly can only help. Like I said I was below the average for ortho on Step 1 and with my Step 2 score I scored interviews at places like Mayo, Brown, etc.

Extension of my questions:

When/if I apply to ortho should I use my research from the other field on the app?

Should I use my letter of recommendation from the faculty member i was in research with? Would I have to ask him for a letter geared toward ortho or just one that is not geared toward the other field?

Originally Posted by Eggsettera

Extension of my questions:

When/if I apply to ortho should I use my research from the other field on the app?

Should I use my letter of recommendation from the faculty member i was in research with? Would I have to ask him for a letter geared toward ortho or just one that is not geared toward the other field?

I would definitely put it on your application if its something you can talk intelligently about (especially if you don't have ortho research to talk about). Many places will have a "research room" on interview day and they only ask questions about research, so it will certainly be good to have something in your app. In terms of the LOR... Programs have different requirements so its important to read all the "Inforrmation for Applicant" tabs on the programs websites for which you are applying. If it says "Send only LORs from orthopaedic and general surgeons" or something to that effect then I probably wouldn't send a letter from the research faculty (unless of course they're in gen-surg). If you're applying for a research track then they might ask for LORs from people you did research with.

Originally Posted by DrVanNostran

How many programs should I apply to? I honestly don't care where I end up. I just want to match lol.

Mid-Tier School
All H/HP first 2 years
So far, a mix of H/HP/P in 3rd year, I have yet to take surgery.
Step 1: 240
Step 2: Scheduled for Sept
Research: Neurosurgery award/Summer fellow, but no pub

I applied to 76 programs. I into applicants on the trail who had higher stats than you that applied 60+ programs too. Ortho is getting way too competitive. Sometimes its better to spend the money now to secure the good salary later.


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Originally Posted by DoctaJay

I applied to 76 programs. I into applicants on the trail who had higher stats than you that applied 60+ programs too. Ortho is getting way too competitive. Sometimes its better to spend the money now to secure the good salary later.


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Thanks for the response, you have been a huge help! I've been saving for a huge application fee. I may end up applying to close to a hundred and just hope for a decent amount of interviews. I just hope my home program shows some love!

I plan on a research elective in july, I hope that helps out. Good luck on the upcoming match!

I applied to 72 programs. Several people in my class applied for ~70 and it worked out relatively well from what I can tell. I got 21 interview offers with a couple waitlists that never ended up developing into an actual interview offer. I think my ERAS was like $1300 which is a drop in the bucket compared to the other $200K debt i've accumulated during medical school.

Thanks for the info KD. I think with my scores, etc...I may need to hit that +100 mark. Now I have another question...I can take 3 months of Ortho during my 4th year. Which is the best option:

A. One month will be a research block at my univesity since all my research is in Neuro. Should I take 2 Ortho rotations at my school with one being an AI. That way I can get 3 solid letters hopefully from faculty at my school.

B. Research+AI at my school+1 away rotation

C. Research at an away program+1 Away+1 AI at my school

Thanks again!

Originally Posted by DrVanNostran

Thanks for the info KD. I think with my scores, etc...I may need to hit that +100 mark. Now I have another question...I can take 3 months of Ortho during my 4th year. Which is the best option:

A. One month will be a research block at my univesity since all my research is in Neuro. Should I take 2 Ortho rotations at my school with one being an AI. That way I can get 3 solid letters hopefully from faculty at my school.

B. Research+AI at my school+1 away rotation

C. Research at an away program+1 Away+1 AI at my school

Thanks again!

100+ may still be a little high haha - you look like you have decent numbers. But do whatever you're comfortable with. I would definitely do your home ortho rotation before doing an away rotation because you will already be familiar with the hospital(s), computer systems, and likely some of the residents and faculty. Its easier to impress people when you're not worrying about learning the ins-and-outs of a new environment at the same time. Then I would do two away rotations if you can fit them in your schedule. The away rotations are like a 1-month interview and if you do a good job it will serve you well during application season and the match. If you feel you need to do a month-long research block see if you can do this in addition to 3 ortho rotations otherwise just try to fit in some biomechanics project when you have some free time here and there between now and applications. If there is a resident currently working on a project you could help out with then offer to help in your free time. This is still something you can talk about at an interview. Although its nice to have a publication with your name on it, sometimes its not possible in a short amount of time. This is not to say that you dont have time to publish something prior to application season, but I think it would serve most people better to do an extra away rotation rather than using a dedicated month to do research.

hey guys I'm an international medical student from Syria and I'm wondering if I have a chance in an ortho residency.
I have 268 on my step 1 and I think I can get a similar score in step 2. I'll be doing step 3 too.
i'm doing 5-6 months of electives in the USA this summer/fall then I'm graduating, one of my electives is an AI in ortho . ( how many months of the 6 should I dedicate to ortho/general surgery ? I need to make sure I can get internal medicine in case ortho is as impossible as it seems for IMGs)

after I graduate I can do a year of research since i can't apply for this year's match.

I think my problem is the non-american medical school (syria ?)

what do u think ?

Can any Orthos reading this thread comment on how important Ortho research is on the CV? I came from a career as a researcher and have some significant publications in heart physiology and CT surgery but now find that I'm more and more interested in Ortho. I'm not keen on spending another year on research, however, just to match Ortho. I feel my CV clearly demonstrates my research aptitude and while I recognize that Ortho Research > Other research > no research, I'm wondering how steep the gradient is on that inequality.

Lets assume that I finish up with Hs in 1/2 of my preclinical classes, H / NH in most rotations including the requisite Hs in surgery et al. and a 240ish step-I

I won't comment on AOA because at my school no one has any idea how they select for it and I honestly can't speculate on my competitiveness for it.

Originally Posted by Untraditional

Can any Orthos reading this thread comment on how important Ortho research is on the CV? I came from a career as a researcher and have some significant publications in heart physiology and CT surgery but now find that I'm more and more interested in Ortho. I'm not keen on spending another year on research, however, just to match Ortho. I feel my CV clearly demonstrates my research aptitude and while I recognize that Ortho Research > Other research > no research, I'm wondering how steep the gradient is on that inequality.

Lets assume that I finish up with Hs in 1/2 of my preclinical classes, H / NH in most rotations including the requisite Hs in surgery et al. and a 240ish step-I

I won't comment on AOA because at my school no one has any idea how they select for it and I honestly can't speculate on my competitiveness for it.

Remember it's the entire package that sells you to programs at the end of the day. That's not to say programs don't have Step 1 cutoffs or other requirements to help them sort through the hundreds of applications they receive. However, these are meant to be an initial filter and at most places the bar isn't that high (a Step 1 of 240s would definitely be above the bar at the vast majority of programs). I doubt research factors in to who programs invite for an interview UNLESS it helps offset a poor Step 1 (i.e. having research probably only helps).

With that said, every program is different in what they look for. We all thought getting in to med school was a crap shoot - wait till you go through the match! There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. I'm convinced interview invitations may be as random as whether the guy sorting applications got too tired by the time he read yours.

My point it, some programs will be more impressed by your research than others. All programs will be impressed if you can describe your interest in research but what ultimately led you towards orthopaedics. Your publications will not make the program look good. What they're going to judge you on is your aptitude for publishing some ortho projects while you are a resident that WILL make them look good.

I had three research experiences - two were non-ortho and not published. The third was ortho but it wasn't published. On the interview trail, having that one ortho experience gave me something to talk about to anyone who asked.

Hope this makes sense.

You dont need to do some huge project that gets published in AAOS or something... Just jump on a biomechanics project that a resident at your home program is working on and help out without expecting anything. If they submit a paper and put your name on it then great. If not then at least you have some sort of involvement in an orthopaedic research project that you can speak about on your interviews. Remember that for the most part the people interviewing you are going to be orthopaedic surgeons (I had a couple PhD's that interviewed me specifically about my research while on the interview trail, but they were also just doing ortho research too), so having non-ortho research might not afford you a lot to talk about. Sure they'll ask some general questions about your cardiothoracic research and be impressed if you've done a lot, but what does an orthopaedic surgeon know about the heart other than that it pumps ancef around to the rest of the body? If you aren't applying this year then you certainly have time to add some ortho research to your CV no matter how small of an addition it is. It will help

This is partly hypothetical
What I do have so far-260 step 1, very good rank mostly As (Honors) in preclinical years, and so far one Honors in clerkships (Psych :/)

Hypothetically- what are my chances if I honor the rest of my clerkships, match my step 1 score on step 2,

The bad:
I only ask out of concern my lack of research and extracurricular activities in med school-I literally haven't done anything outside of my academic obligations


I do have a year of research before college and everything meaningful on my resume is pre-medical school (worked for a year as a lab tech, have a masters, volunteering)

I guess my question is how much does this hurt me? Or does it hurt me at all?

PS if this comes off as trolling I apologize I'm genuinely concerned

Originally Posted by SlickNickMD

This is partly hypothetical
What I do have so far-260 step 1, very good rank mostly As (Honors) in preclinical years, and so far one Honors in clerkships (Psych :/)

Hypothetically- what are my chances if I honor the rest of my clerkships, match my step 1 score on step 2,

The bad:
I only ask out of concern my lack of research and extracurricular activities in med school-I literally haven't done anything outside of my academic obligations


I do have a year of research before college and everything meaningful on my resume is pre-medical school (worked for a year as a lab tech, have a masters, volunteering)

I guess my question is how much does this hurt me? Or does it hurt me at all?

PS if this comes off as trolling I apologize I'm genuinely concerned

You'll be fine. It won't matter one bit with those numbers.

Originally Posted by Green Grass

You'll be fine. It won't matter one bit with those numbers.

Thanks for the reassurance but I can't help but feel like a bum for not being involved in anything outside of school work-My classmates in 20 different clubs, taking trips to Sudan to cure AIDS doesn't help either (exaggerating but u get the idea)


I'm a tutor, maybe that counts for something :/


Ur prolly right, all I can do now is get the numbers so no one asks questions hopefully

Hi all,

I’ve always been surgically inclined and have had ortho on my list, but never considered seriously until this year. I had a few questions that I would really appreciate someone answering for me.

1) Do residencies want a step 2 score on your application?

2) How did you “know for sure” that ortho was right for you?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated! Thanks!!

1) Do residencies want a step 2 score on your application? I have a ******* on my step 1 and the ortho surgeon I’m with says I should not take step 2 until after my apps are in.

The standard answer is no, you do not need to take step 2. However from looking at the Charting Outcomes 2011, the avg step 1 score is no 240. Personally myself step 1 was higher than yours and I still took Step 2. My mindset was that I wanted the programs to know that I wasn't scared of the test and I wanted my app as complete as possible. I know a couple folks who scored in the 250s and 260s who took Step 2 early. Their general mantra was that if you did well on Step 1, then Step 2 can only be better, which I agree with. So yeah, technically you don't to take it again, however if you go up on Step 2 (which most students do) it can only help you.

2) How did you “know for sure” that ortho was right for you? I recently realized I may have been trying to convince myself that ortho is NOT right for me rather than convincing myself it is (and I think it may be), mainly because I have this idealistic thought that I can do a lot of surgery and a lot of mystery diagnosis at once haha. I think that I would rather do more surgery (even though I may be trying to convince myself otherwise). I always liked to build and take apart things, and I am very much a tinkerer and finagler around the house and with my car, etc.

For me it was the patients. Ortho patients are on the whole much more pleasant to work with and are appreciative because they had a painful bone issue that you fixed IMMEDIATELY. Also, I seriously considered urology and g surg but just didn't cut into anal abscesses or scrotums. I also liked that ortho allowed you to operate from the clavicles and cspine all the way down to the toes. And any field that allows me to use monster wire cutters is for me.I also thought the residents in order were nicer and fun to work with. I never considered a medical field as I HATE ROUNDS. just my .02

3) Chances question… (and a question of what I should do to maximize my application so that I can get interviews, have a reasonable match) I am at a new med school and have a different 3rd year curriculum (all 6 rotations going at once throughout 3rd year). Will this be a negative on my application? I know that “knowing people” is a big deal, but I hope to get this on aways and maybe some regional conferences.

Your Step 1 score and your away rotations will counteract any issues of coming from a new medical school. What could hurt you is if your school doesn't have an ortho program for you to work with. Then you have to do more work at outside institutions.

My step 1: 239/99 preclinical years are pass/fail, but I did relatively well and on the Dean’s letter, they put if you are top 20 or 10%--not sure where I will land yet. This year, rotations have pass and honors (top 15%) and I will not know my results until the end of the year. I have some basic science and clinical research from undergrad (at an Ivy, if that matters…), 2 small projects/presentations during years 1 and 2, currently working on 1 GI-related paper where I may be an author, plan on writing up some rheumatology and ortho case reports and potentially start a long-term first author project this year.

The nice thing about all our rotations going at once is that I lucked out with my surgery preceptor being an ortho and my IM preceptor a rheumatologist. I will get to know them pretty well by 4th year and hopefully will get some skills down within the field for my aways.

My big outside-of-medicine thing is music.

4) Any advice in terms of scheduling/deciding on aways and residencies? What else I should do to improve my application given that I am at a new community-based school in a small town?

Just started 3rd year and just finished surgery... I haven't gotten my grade back but I predict it will be a P. 1/3 of our grade is a video taped clinical exam and I failed to ask social history on 2 patients.

Step 1: 254
Surgery: P
IM: HP
Research: None (I plan to try to get involved, but I most likely won't have any pubs or abstracts by interview time)
Med school ranked ~100

I have no preference for where I go for residency...

What are my chances?

Hi all,

I'm a 3rd year in New york having trouble with deciding what I want to go into. I've done Ob, psych, and medicine. I'm leaning toward surgery, and I'm interested in orthopedic surgery. I got a 254 on my step 1 and have high passed/ honored my rotations so far. However, i have no experience in orthopedic surgery so far. What should I do to maximize my chances of matching? It's a pain but my surgery rotation isnt til the end of the year, so I have to start preparing now. If I started clinical research now, what shot do I have? What else should i do?

Thanks for your help!

So I'm torn as to whether to take step 2 early. My last core rotation ends in July but its a rough rotation OBGYN. After that I plan on doing 3 ortho aways between august and november and then taking December off for step 2 CS/CK.


My question is should I risk taking step 2 early amidst my other obligations, this would've been an easier decision if I had a less demanding rotation as my last one.

Originally Posted by SlickNickMD

So I'm torn as to whether to take step 2 early. My last core rotation ends in July but its a rough rotation OBGYN. After that I plan on doing 3 ortho aways between august and november and then taking December off for step 2 CS/CK.


My question is should I risk taking step 2 early amidst my other obligations, this would've been an easier decision if I had a less demanding rotation as my last one.

What exactly is your Step 1 score? If its 240+ I wouldnt bother taking step 2 early. And why 3 ortho aways? If you have a home program, you'd be better off doing your home rotation and 2 aways July-sept. That way you're in the best possible shape to have your application complete and ready to be sent in day one when ERAS opens.

Originally Posted by Chakrabs

What exactly is your Step 1 score? If its 240+ I wouldnt bother taking step 2 early. And why 3 ortho aways? If you have a home program, you'd be better off doing your home rotation and 2 aways July-sept. That way you're in the best possible shape to have your application complete and ready to be sent in day one when ERAS opens.

I don't have a home program hence me doing 3 aways and my step 1 score is a 260 that's why this is a dilemma. I want to be as competitive as possible, so doing equally well on step 2 would look great but there's a risk of doing poorly if I can't dedicate time to studying for it.

Despite my step 1 score and good preclinical/clinical grades I do have disadvantages (no research and no home program) so it behooves me to do well on these aways and get some letters. Which kinda places step 2 on near the bottom of my priority list so to speak, but I guess I just want someone to convince me to take it early

I've done pretty well on the core shelf exams but it would be presumptuous for me to think I could get a 250 on it without dedicated studying