Evms

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Originally Posted by goldenbear107

I got into the MM program with a 28 MCAT (V8/BS9/PS11). How much will this hinder me for the EVMS MD program (or other MD programs) that follows the MM year? Should I retake it this summer before starting evms mm (July ish)? I'll be doing AMCAS in June as well...but with a 28 i'll be cutting it pretty thin. i haven't been able to schedule another MCAT until this summer because of the school year :/

Yeah, you should get a higher MCAT if you can. Historically, getting into the MM program means you're in an acceptable state for EVMS MD. But the MM class size increase means you need as much going for you as possible. And a 28 isn't going to help you at other schools at all.

The danger here is that with the majority of MCAT retakes, people get the same score or lower. If you get lower than a 28, you will substantially hurt your chances at any med school. So if you're not doing significant work to improve that 28, then you should not retake.

I wouldn't hold up AMCAS for a new MCAT score. Submit the new score as an update to your schools. But get the MCAT done before the MM program starts August 12.

Best of luck to you.

I do know someone who took the MCAT a total of 4 times, did an SMP and is now at a very respectable private medical school. He had some GPA damage with a huge upward trend and phenomenal clinical exposure. I think one thing that worked to his favor was that he never went down on an MCAT. If memory serves, his scores were something like this:

8 PS 5 VR 10 BS = 23
10 PS 6 VR 12 BS = 28
10 PS 10 VR 8 BS = 28
10 PS 10 VR 10 BS = 30

Just apply early and realistically. The vast majority of schools do rolling admissions. I look at that policy this way for a borderline applicant:

"It's early August and even though this applicant is off by a few pts on MCAT and GPA, they have a great essay, experience, and trend. They really want to be a doc and since we haven't interviewed too many applicants yet, lets give this one a chance."

"It's late November, wow I really like this applicant. Unfortunately, we have accepted several interview rounds worth of students and plan to interview many more applicants with better numbers who were able to get their application in earlier."

It's all in timing, adcoms can be less selective and more open minded in the mid summer than they can in the late fall.

Originally Posted by DrMidlife

Yeah, you should get a higher MCAT if you can. Historically, getting into the MM program means you're in an acceptable state for EVMS MD. But the MM class size increase means you need as much going for you as possible. And a 28 isn't going to help you at other schools at all.

The danger here is that with the majority of MCAT retakes, people get the same score or lower. If you get lower than a 28, you will substantially hurt your chances at any med school. So if you're not doing significant work to improve that 28, then you should not retake.

I wouldn't hold up AMCAS for a new MCAT score. Submit the new score as an update to your schools. But get the MCAT done before the MM program starts August 12.

Best of luck to you.

Isn't it bad if you don't list intent on your AMCAS to take, say, an August 2013 administration? Because what I'm inferring from your response is to send your MCAT scores with the pre-existing score on it to get your AMCAS processed ASAP, and then when the score comes Sept 2013, to send it as an update and change your AMCAS then. Would schools look down on that, or would they not even notice?

Also, I was thinking schools might wait for your 2nd MCAT to be processed because if I sign up for an Aug 2013 test now, when I send my scores they might see a pending exam and process my AMCAS late anyway.

I think honesty & transparency are good. If you have a 28, you SHOULD be planning a retake. That's just proactive and it won't raise a single eyebrow. From a sub-30 you should be worried that hours-long standardized exams will kill your specialty choices, down the road.

A school can decide to interpret a planned MCAT retake as meaningless or as meaningful depending on their policy for holding apps for review. There isn't a standard. But a 28 with a low GPA isn't generally going to be held for an MCAT score except at your home state public schools with powerful in-state preference.

EVMS won't look at a med master app at all until spring.

The only damage you can do to yourself is to get a lower score. How you report your plans on AMCAS is fairly neutral here. Dr. Meyer gets nervous when he sees retakes planned because then he has to deal with a MM student with a 25 who can no longer realistically get an EVMS MD acceptance.

Best of luck to you.

Dr.Midlife,

I was going through the thread and you mentioned that it might be good to submit secondaries when EVMS sends out LOR's in August. So if we submit our primaries in June, we should wait until August to turn secondaries in? I have been told previously that it is good to turn in secondaries within a week you received them.

Originally Posted by AntonFreeman

Dr.Midlife,

I was going through the thread and you mentioned that it might be good to submit secondaries when EVMS sends out LOR's in August. So if we submit our primaries in June, we should wait until August to turn secondaries in? I have been told previously that it is good to turn in secondaries within a week you received them.

Dr. Meyer does a letter in August explaining the program. That letter doesn't improve your chances with med schools any - it just explains what you're doing academically and why the med masters program is a great audition for med school. Basically it helps med schools understand that if they put your app in the hold pile, that there's a good reason for it to be there until January. There are some schools who will do this, no problem. There are other schools that won't. I don't have a list.

Now, if you were really close to getting accepted this year, such as if you were waitlisted, then you shouldn't wait to get those secondaries done. Don't lose the early advantage, and just being enrolled in an SMP, for those who were almost accepted, is a bona fide app boost - it shows commitment to the process and a willingness to do more hard work. You can explain the EVMS MM program in the secondary, and then when you get Dr. Meyer's letter, that's an update that goes out to your schools.

Also: Interfolio. Definitely the thing to do if you're applying widely. Which you probably should be.

Best of luck to you.

So it's better to hold off on submitting secondaries until that August letter goes out?

Originally Posted by DrMidlife

The only damage you can do to yourself is to get a lower score. How you report your plans on AMCAS is fairly neutral here. Dr. Meyer gets nervous when he sees retakes planned because then he has to deal with a MM student with a 25 who can no longer realistically get an EVMS MD acceptance.

Dr. Meyer getting nervous from a retake that lowered someone's most recent score to a 25?

Originally Posted by vaportranz

So it's better to hold off on submitting secondaries until that August letter goes out?

Depends on your situation, as I described.

Originally Posted by PikaPikaPika

Dr. Meyer getting nervous from a retake that lowered someone's most recent score to a 25?

Hypothetical case. The point is you can't bomb a retake without consequences.

I applied late last year with no interviews. Guess I'll be waiting until that August letter goes out.

Dr Mid-
I got into the MM program a while back (I've previously mentioned that but just in case). To be honest with you, I am nervous as heck. I'm confident I can do the program and leave with a minimum of 3.5 if not higher . . . basically I know I can get A's and succeed. I'm not nervous of failing, but what does make me uneasy is the "trust" that we have to have that doing this will get us into EVMS (or some equivalent MD elsewhere). Especially since the class size is increasing this year I am scared that I could end up more in debt and still in the same situation. This is such a massive financial investment and I will be devastated if the program doesn't "do" what it is supposed to. Any advice? Or anything you can say to solidify my decision to do this program. It would be greatly appreciated. How do I trust the program? haha ok thank you

Originally Posted by notjawn

Dr Mid-
I got into the MM program a while back (I've previously mentioned that but just in case). To be honest with you, I am nervous as heck. I'm confident I can do the program and leave with a minimum of 3.5 if not higher . . . basically I know I can get A's and succeed. I'm not nervous of failing, but what does make me uneasy is the "trust" that we have to have that doing this will get us into EVMS (or some equivalent MD elsewhere). Especially since the class size is increasing this year I am scared that I could end up more in debt and still in the same situation. This is such a massive financial investment and I will be devastated if the program doesn't "do" what it is supposed to. Any advice? Or anything you can say to solidify my decision to do this program. It would be greatly appreciated. How do I trust the program? haha ok thank you

This is a completely reasonable question.

That said, I just took a biochem final, and I have a physio shelf on Friday, so I can't concentrate. Or I'd make a flow chart to help you think about all the elements in this decision.

For the time being, I'd suggest looking at the results for the MM10 class, that I posted a few days ago. 100% are in med school. Not all of them made it through the MM10 class. Not all of them started right after completing the MM program. Not all of them got into a US MD school. But they're all in med school. Similarly, in the MM11 class, you have 22 out of 23 now in a US MD school, and one in PA school. As far as I'm concerned, those results are still relevant as the EVMS MM class size increases. Your worst case is that you realize during the MM program that you can't handle med school. Not a worst case: you don't start med school immediately after completing an SMP. You can disagree with me on this, of course. (When you're my age you'll roll your eyes at yourself, but you don't have to agree with me now.)

I suggest looking at your realistic odds for getting into your home state public school(s), as you're considering debt load. If you're from a state that has schools with total COA under $200k, that's worth prioritizing over OOS COA at EVMS which is currently about $320k. If you're from VA, then EVMS is not much more expensive than other VA schools, at around $225k. With any debt load over about $200k, whichever decision maximizes your chances for a minimized total debt load is the best decision, I think.

I've written elsewhere that a GPA redemption path can't be scheduled, and it can't be budgeted, and it can't necessarily be staged in your home state. But by taking the strong expensive risky step of doing an SMP, such as the EVMS MM program, you're off the fence. You're going to med school, unless you find you can't handle the academics or have a personality disorder, in which case you shouldn't go to med school.

Good enough for now? Let me get through finals and then I might be able to do a better outline of all this.

Best of luck to you.

Originally Posted by DrMidlife

This is a completely reasonable question.

That said, I just took a biochem final, and I have a physio shelf on Friday, so I can't concentrate. Or I'd make a flow chart to help you think about all the elements in this decision.

For the time being, I'd suggest looking at the results for the MM10 class, that I posted a few days ago. 100% are in med school. Not all of them made it through the MM10 class. Not all of them started right after completing the MM program. Not all of them got into a US MD school. But they're all in med school. Similarly, in the MM11 class, you have 22 out of 23 now in a US MD school, and one in PA school. As far as I'm concerned, those results are still relevant as the EVMS MM class size increases. Your worst case is that you realize during the MM program that you can't handle med school. Not a worst case: you don't start med school immediately after completing an SMP. You can disagree with me on this, of course. (When you're my age you'll roll your eyes at yourself, but you don't have to agree with me now.)

I suggest looking at your realistic odds for getting into your home state public school(s), as you're considering debt load. If you're from a state that has schools with total COA under $200k, that's worth prioritizing over OOS COA at EVMS which is currently about $320k. If you're from VA, then EVMS is not much more expensive than other VA schools, at around $225k. With any debt load over about $200k, whichever decision maximizes your chances for a minimized total debt load is the best decision, I think.

I've written elsewhere that a GPA redemption path can't be scheduled, and it can't be budgeted, and it can't necessarily be staged in your home state. But by taking the strong expensive risky step of doing an SMP, such as the EVMS MM program, you're off the fence. You're going to med school, unless you find you can't handle the academics or have a personality disorder, in which case you shouldn't go to med school.

Good enough for now? Let me get through finals and then I might be able to do a better outline of all this.

Best of luck to you.

Yes! Outlines are great! Go pass med school then if you feel like it get back to me. If not, your advice was still good, luckily it was what I wanted to hear.
Thanks

Can anyone comment on Pembroke Towers?

Originally Posted by vaportranz

Can anyone comment on Pembroke Towers?

The facebook group has some people who live there. Also search this thread for "pembroke".

Have any of the MM students heard back from EVMS's MD program?

Originally Posted by DrZootrap

Have any of the MM students heard back from EVMS's MD program?

To recap:
1. MM's start getting acceptances after graduation.
2. Graduation was Saturday May 18.
3. The office of admissions isn't open on weekends.

Just double checking: we are not supposed to include Dr. Meyer's letter in our AMCAS primary application, right?

Originally Posted by JoeM

Just double checking: we are not supposed to include Dr. Meyer's letter in our AMCAS primary application, right?

If you want your app to be looked at early, you can't wait for that letter.

This is highly subjective, and honestly the differences between med schools are too complex to give a tidy answer. But: historically, EVMS MM's wait to submit secondaries at other schools until they have Dr. Meyer's letter.

Best of luck to you.

Originally Posted by DrMidlife

If you want your app to be looked at early, you can't wait for that letter.

This is highly subjective, and honestly the differences between med schools are too complex to give a tidy answer. But: historically, EVMS MM's wait to submit secondaries at other schools until they have Dr. Meyer's letter.

Best of luck to you.

Is there any advantage in having it looked at early, since schools will wait for fall semester grades anyway?

Right now, all the schools I plan to apply to this cycle have accepted EVMS MM's in previous years. I chose them, in part, for this reason, but also because a few are my state schools and some of the others I received interviews/waitlists from this cycle.

Thanks for your help!

Well, graduation is over and class is roughly 80 days away. I guess we should be hearing soon about how the class of 2013 is doing with acceptances into EVMS for the fall. Here's to that historic 85-90 % success rate!

No point in throwing around the 85% - 90% numbers. The last class we have data for was 28 students. Now it's 40, and next year it's 50. Apples and oranges.

Why do they keep increasing class size without having the intent to increase the amount of acceptances? Wouldn't that mean they are lying when boasting the 85-90 fact on their website?

Originally Posted by notjawn

Why do they keep increasing class size without having the intent to increase the amount of acceptances? Wouldn't that mean they are lying when boasting the 85-90 fact on their website?

I don't believe I've ever seen stats on the EVMS website. Alumni talk about EVMS stats on SDN, but EVMS never talks about med masters stats on its website.

Originally Posted by notjawn

Why do they keep increasing class size without having the intent to increase the amount of acceptances? Wouldn't that mean they are lying when boasting the 85-90 fact on their website?

Another answer to this: why does Gtown have 180+ SMP students when only 15-20% get into Gtown?

Originally Posted by DrMidlife

I don't believe I've ever seen stats on the EVMS website. Alumni talk about EVMS stats on SDN, but EVMS never talks about med masters stats on its website.

"Since 1995, the EVMS Medical Master's Program has helped 85-90% of our applicants successfully place themselves in the entering classes of allopathic medical schools across the United States."

-Source: http://www.evms.edu/education/master...sters_program/

This says nothing, however, about how many students are admitted from the EVMS MM program into the medical school. It's possible that with the increase in MM class size, there will be more acceptances into the medical school because of an increase in the overall medical school class size (the only data I could find was a 30% increase in 2011-2012). This is just conjecture, though. Like DrMidlife said, it is impossible to predict what will happen based on previous years.

Originally Posted by Taco Cat

"Since 1995, the EVMS Medical Master's Program has helped 85-90% of our applicants successfully place themselves in the entering classes of allopathic medical schools across the United States."

-Source: http://www.evms.edu/education/master...sters_program/

I stand corrected. Still can't quite focus my eyes after taking the physio shelf. Sorry folks.

This is all speculation. Even with the MM class size increase, there are too many variables we don't know and never will know. For example, MM graduates who didn't get into the MD program at the end of the MM - how were their grades in the MM program? How did their EVMS MD interview go? We're they good citizens of the program (ie- did they take advantage of volunteer opportunities and have a good rapport with the program staff administration, and students?)? As far as I can tell, no other program with give you opportunities and get your foot in the door of a well-respected medical school like this one will.

Well, here's what I'm hearing for the MM class of 2013: it's already over 70%. Out of 40, 2 got in to another med school, 27 are in at EVMS. That's after week one of acceptances. Among the 27 EVMS acceptees, some have acceptances at other schools as well. None of this info is public, none of it is official, and all of it is subject to change.

As is true with all the MM years I've seen, this is the best and worst of times. Those who are in are joyous, of course. Those who are not in, at least not yet, are baffled, frustrated and devastated. Marriages and families and rental leases and employment and reapplication plans are all completely up in the air for the 11 who are waiting. MM13's that I assumed would be at the top of the list were not. We'll see what happens next week.

For the moment, three things:
1. Your stats prior to the EVMS MM do matter and will not be ignored in your admissions decision.
2. Your involvement in EVMS community activities as an MM will not seal your deal.
3. Every exam score matters - not just the end grade for a class.

Best of luck to you.

This should end speculation. According to MSAR about 30% of admitted students have a graduate degree (which is very high compared to other schools). With a class size of 150 for next year that means that (150 x .3)= 45. If the trend continues as I imagine it would, that means 45 students will be accepted into next years class with graduate degrees. (45/50)= .9 or 90% of the class size of the MM.

Using this info you could make the assumption that they have allotted the 90% that is mentioned on their website for the med masters kids. So again, like it has been stated multiple times, the spots are yours to lose. I really do not think this program is a "money grab" and genuinely feel like the administration have the students best interest in mind. Obviously they profit off of this, but differently than say, Ross Med, where they do not care about you at all and actually plan on a large portion of students failing out, but still having to pay tuition.

Oh well. That's just my take.

Well, yes and no. The GT SMP regularly sends 3-9 grads to EVMS MD. However, those stats are for classes prior to the increase in class size at EVMS. But, medical schools throughout the country are gradually increasing their class sizes annually, to a small degree, to combat that 100,000 + physician shortage that is anticipated to occur in the next 10-20 years.

I did some further research, last year's EVMS publication book showed about a 15 % acceptance rate into the MM program. For a masters program, that is extremely selective, and I think is something that is highly reassuring, as they obviously do not have a dearth of applicants, which means if you were in that 15%, they think with the right amount of work and ability, you can get into the MD program. It also seems that they are trying to promote the program more on the school website. I view this as a positive sign as well. There are a lot of these programs popping up around the country, and most of them seem to be only interested in cash with no feeding back into the MD school whatsoever. This is hardly the case with EVMS. So far, we know that 75 % have been accepted somewhere. Graduation was 6 days ago and as has been discussed on this thread many times, there is always wait list movement. Therefore, common sense dictates that the 75 % number must increase.

I also agree that the supportive nature of the admissions office is phenomenal. Leah and Amber are wonderful people who go out of our way to ensure that our CV and PS are the best that they can possibly be. I applied to GT and Cincy as well, my experience with their SMP admissions offices were far different and not nearly as caring or positive.

The bottom line, we are all coming here because we understand the value of a US MD and that while we made a mistake at some point, we want to show that we have overcome those errors and that we can cut it in medical school. There is no program ANYWHERE that is going to get your foot in the door like this one will. While there is no guarantee, I like my chances vs an applicant with similar stats who isn't doing this program. Furthermore, if someone is looking to do an SMP with the best possible shot of starting MD right after, this is probably the best program in the entire country.

Thoughts?