"You're too nice to be a surgeon."

SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)

I need to vent. I am almost finished with my third year and am strongly considering going into general surgery. Throughout most of the year I have been undecided about my future, and of course many people (nurses, midlevels, attendings, etc.) have given me their two cents about what specialty I should pursue ("I can see you going into ____"). I tend to get internal medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry a lot. Today my PM&R attending told me that I should go into pathology. This really got my panties in a bunch because I had already told her my plans just yesterday. (Please note that I highly respect pathologists and consider them to be the backbone of many specialties.) Whenever I say that I am considering surgery, I get responses like "you're too nice to be a surgeon", or worse, "you're not mean enough to be a surgeon".

The thing is, I honored my surgery clerkship and received good evaluations from my attendings, who provided positive comments about my hard work, conduct with the OR staff, interpersonal skills, and technical skills. It is true that I am introverted (except with patients), often shy, and a yes man. I can be politely assertive but have never been and will not be aggressive.

Even if I did have the stereotypical surgical personality, what right do I have as a third year medical student to be aggressive or demanding? I obviously have no power or real responsibility at this stage of the game. There is just no excuse or credibility to have an ego when you're at the bottom. Also, how does being a complete a**hole make one more effective at getting things done?

Why do you care about what strangers think again?

I get the "too nice to be a surgeon" thing fairly often. I know we've discussed this in threads before and others (WS?) have gotten similar comments. I did get much more assertive in residency (I was really quiet and shy and reserved at first), but there's a difference between letting people know what you want and being rude or obnoxious about it. And there is a difference between getting frustrated about a situation versus taking it out on someone. As an intern, my being nice didn't mean that I was any less efficient at getting the work done. Quite the opposite, as I could convince others to help me out with getting stuff like CT scans, IR procedures, and whatever else I needed to get done.

The thing is, there are plenty of very nice surgeons out there. The people with the obnoxious personalities just make everyone else look bad. The majority of surgeons I've worked with are very pleasant. The few who aren't pleasant are, unfortunately, far more memorable. You remember surgeries where the surgeon is completely a tool; you don't really remember the pleasant, otherwise unremarkable surgeries. And the stories people share are the bad stories, not the "everything was very normal" stories.

I wouldn't put much stock in those comments. You will find plenty of jerks in EVERY field. Where I currently work, the ER guys will tell you that the surgeons are not the biggest jerks; that would be certain hospitalists and medical subspecialists. Go into whatever field you want to go into, and who cares what other people think. You need to be happy with your choice. Besides, being nice will work to your advantage as far as nurses, consulting services, and others being willing to help you out.

Originally Posted by C8H11NO2

I need to vent. I am almost finished with my third year and am strongly considering going into general surgery. Throughout most of the year I have been undecided about my future, and of course many people (nurses, midlevels, attendings, etc.) have given me their two cents about what specialty I should pursue ("I can see you going into ____"). I tend to get internal medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry a lot. Today my PM&R attending told me that I should go into pathology. This really got my panties in a bunch because I had already told her my plans just yesterday. (Please note that I highly respect pathologists and consider them to be the backbone of many specialties.) Whenever I say that I am considering surgery, I get responses like "you're too nice to be a surgeon", or worse, "you're not mean enough to be a surgeon".

The thing is, I honored my surgery clerkship and received good evaluations from my attendings, who provided positive comments about my hard work, conduct with the OR staff, interpersonal skills, and technical skills. It is true that I am introverted (except with patients), often shy, and a yes man. I can be politely assertive but have never been and will not be aggressive.

Even if I did have the stereotypical surgical personality, what right do I have as a third year medical student to be aggressive or demanding? I obviously have no power or real responsibility at this stage of the game. There is just no excuse or credibility to have an ego when you're at the bottom. Also, how does being a complete a**hole make one more effective at getting things done?

A "yes man" who wears " panties " is probably a different contradiction that doesn't fit the surgeon motif. However...

You don't have to be the stereotypical person to go into surgery. You will be shaped to fit that mold during residency.

Originally Posted by C8H11NO2

I need to vent. I am almost finished with my third year and am strongly considering going into general surgery.

Do some away subIs and get the life scutted out of you. Scrub every case you can, come early and stay late. If you still like it maybe surgery is for you. Likewise, if 3 subIs in a row don't turn you mean then you're probably too nice to deal with the bull**** involved in a surgery residency.

Originally Posted by C8H11NO2

I need to vent. I am almost finished with my third year and am strongly considering going into general surgery. Throughout most of the year I have been undecided about my future, and of course many people (nurses, midlevels, attendings, etc.) have given me their two cents about what specialty I should pursue ("I can see you going into ____"). I tend to get internal medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry a lot. Today my PM&R attending told me that I should go into pathology. This really got my panties in a bunch because I had already told her my plans just yesterday. (Please note that I highly respect pathologists and consider them to be the backbone of many specialties.) Whenever I say that I am considering surgery, I get responses like "you're too nice to be a surgeon", or worse, "you're not mean enough to be a surgeon".

The thing is, I honored my surgery clerkship and received good evaluations from my attendings, who provided positive comments about my hard work, conduct with the OR staff, interpersonal skills, and technical skills. It is true that I am introverted (except with patients), often shy, and a yes man. I can be politely assertive but have never been and will not be aggressive.

Even if I did have the stereotypical surgical personality, what right do I have as a third year medical student to be aggressive or demanding? I obviously have no power or real responsibility at this stage of the game. There is just no excuse or credibility to have an ego when you're at the bottom. Also, how does being a complete a**hole make one more effective at getting things done?

I have gotten this comment as well. I find that flipping over a file cabinet, desk, or wheelchair-bound patient immediately after receiving it does much to rectify that opinion.

Originally Posted by C8H11NO2

I need to vent. I am almost finished with my third year and am strongly considering going into general surgery. Throughout most of the year I have been undecided about my future, and of course many people (nurses, midlevels, attendings, etc.) have given me their two cents about what specialty I should pursue ("I can see you going into ____"). I tend to get internal medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry a lot. Today my PM&R attending told me that I should go into pathology. This really got my panties in a bunch because I had already told her my plans just yesterday. (Please note that I highly respect pathologists and consider them to be the backbone of many specialties.) Whenever I say that I am considering surgery, I get responses like "you're too nice to be a surgeon", or worse, "you're not mean enough to be a surgeon".

The thing is, I honored my surgery clerkship and received good evaluations from my attendings, who provided positive comments about my hard work, conduct with the OR staff, interpersonal skills, and technical skills. It is true that I am introverted (except with patients), often shy, and a yes man. I can be politely assertive but have never been and will not be aggressive.

Even if I did have the stereotypical surgical personality, what right do I have as a third year medical student to be aggressive or demanding? I obviously have no power or real responsibility at this stage of the game. There is just no excuse or credibility to have an ego when you're at the bottom. Also, how does being a complete a**hole make one more effective at getting things done?

I've heard this too. **** 'em. Quiet confidence is not a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Law2Doc

A "yes man" who wears " panties " is probably a different contradiction that doesn't fit the surgeon motif. However...

You don't have to be the stereotypical person to go into surgery. You will be shaped to fit that mold during residency.

Exactly...OP, let's see if you continue in your current ways once 3rd year of residency rolls around. Not everyone who goes into surgery is an *******. Most become that way in the process of training.

don't worry.... most med students who go into surgery are usually too nice to become surgeons... by the end of residency, you will become cynical, tired, bleary-eyed, mean-spirited, spite-ful and convinced that nobody can take care of a patient better than you can...

I think you should do what makes you happy and what you enjoy the most. However I would not discount advice from those who know you well. Also even some you have worked with in medicine have valuable advice.

I was set on radiology at one point. Thought the field was cool, has potential, etc. However multiple attendings and even several patients told me I should do internal medicine. In fact a med student from another school who I was with only for a few days said I "seemed like internal medicine". My best friend (who isn't in medicine but knows a little based off what I tell him) never thought I would choose radiology. Needless to say I ended up switching not just because of their comments but for many other reasons. However their comments did help and it is interesting that they were all pointing me towards a different field then what I thought I may do.

You may like surgery but in my opinion a person does need fit a mold to be a good one. Surgeons have a knack for picking this out. I would seek advice from other surgeons at least to see what they think. You'll be on the interview trail and if you don't strike them as a surgeon (despite your grades/scores/whatever) in a short amount of time you will not get in. If everyone is telling you a different field maybe there may be some underlying aspect about yourself that you do not notice.

Originally Posted by Tenesma

don't worry.... most med students who go into surgery are usually too nice to become surgeons... by the end of residency, you will become cynical, tired, bleary-eyed, mean-spirited, spite-ful and convinced that nobody can take care of a patient better than you can...

So true.

I noticed people love to discourage students from going into surgery. Its not just "you wont have a life" or "forget about family." I've had people flat out tell me its a horrible field and I should switch. People don't seem to realized that for some students find the ability to medically manage pts and perform surgeries is so interesting that they are willing to put up with all the other bull that come with the field. I'm seen many nice surgeons and residents, as well as the opposite. The only reason anyone should be discouraged from going into surgery is if they are not willing to work hard and wants a cush residency.

I do think people going into surgery today is different from people who went into the field 30 yrs ago. Back in those days, programs used to be pyramidal, survival of the fittest type of thing. Kind of like the difference between house cats and wild cats. Same specie, whole different animal.

Originally Posted by Oxer45

I noticed people love to discourage students from going into surgery. Its not just "you wont have a life" or "forget about family." I've had people flat out tell me its a horrible field and I should switch. People don't seem to realized that for some students find the ability to medically manage pts and perform surgeries is so interesting that they are willing to put up with all the other bull that come with the field. I'm seen many nice surgeons and residents, as well as the opposite. The only reason anyone should be discouraged from going into surgery is if they are not willing to work hard and wants a cush residency.

I do think people going into surgery today is different from people who went into the field 30 yrs ago. Back in those days, programs used to be pyramidal, survival of the fittest type of thing. Kind of like the difference between house cats and wild cats. Same specie, whole different animal.

Love this attitude. The subtext is "we work harder than anyone else in medicine, you're all coasting and we're the ones putting in the sweat, tears and blood." Whatever you have to believe to get through the day, I guess.

Originally Posted by C8H11NO2

I need to vent. I am almost finished with my third year and am strongly considering going into general surgery. Throughout most of the year I have been undecided about my future, and of course many people (nurses, midlevels, attendings, etc.) have given me their two cents about what specialty I should pursue ("I can see you going into ____"). I tend to get internal medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry a lot. Today my PM&R attending told me that I should go into pathology. This really got my panties in a bunch because I had already told her my plans just yesterday. (Please note that I highly respect pathologists and consider them to be the backbone of many specialties.) Whenever I say that I am considering surgery, I get responses like "you're too nice to be a surgeon", or worse, "you're not mean enough to be a surgeon".

The thing is, I honored my surgery clerkship and received good evaluations from my attendings, who provided positive comments about my hard work, conduct with the OR staff, interpersonal skills, and technical skills. It is true that I am introverted (except with patients), often shy, and a yes man. I can be politely assertive but have never been and will not be aggressive.

Even if I did have the stereotypical surgical personality, what right do I have as a third year medical student to be aggressive or demanding? I obviously have no power or real responsibility at this stage of the game. There is just no excuse or credibility to have an ego when you're at the bottom. Also, how does being a complete a**hole make one more effective at getting things done?

Quit seeking validation from other people when it comes to YOUR career and happiness. Every specialty in medicine is needed and has its perks.

And like others said, don't worry about the 'being a prick' part. It comes later.

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

Love this attitude. The subtext is "we work harder than anyone else in medicine, you're all coasting and we're the ones putting in the sweat, tears and blood." Whatever you have to believe to get through the day, I guess.

If you reread my post you'll see I did not put down other fields. But the fact is, if you want a residency that offers more work-life balance, surgery is not the place to look for it. If we follow your logic, neurosurgery residents would accuse gen surg people of being slackers.

Originally Posted by Oxer45

If you reread my post you'll see I did not put down other fields. But the fact is, if you want a residency that offers more work-life balance, surgery is not the place to look for it. If we follow your logic, neurosurgery residents would accuse gen surg people of being slackers.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that neurosurg residents think everyone else is slacking.

Originally Posted by Smurfette

I get the "too nice to be a surgeon" thing fairly often. I know we've discussed this in threads before and others (WS?) have gotten similar comments.

Yes, I heard that comment many times over the years as a student and resident. After deciding on surgery, while completing my med school requirements, many specialty residents saw it fit to try and talk me out of surgery because I would be a "better fit for <insert specialty X here>".

Unlike Smurfette, I was not quiet and shy but am rather outgoing and gregarious. But she is absolutely right that there is an difference between being assertive and aggressive. Time can be of the essence in many fields and I find that "nice guys" in surgery who cannot be assertive tend to have a more difficult time. You need to be able to assert yourself and your patient's needs, even if it doesn't fit others needs. That may mean you draw the patients blood or transport them down to the CT suite if the nursing staff or transport team aren't getting it done. It does not mean screaming at someone in the middle of the unit. It can mean explaining why your patient needs to be scanned NOW or why you need to bump another surgeon's elective case in the OR for your emergent one. Being nice can mean that people are more willing to do things for you.

Its unfortunate that so many students, especially here on SDN, have a negative view of surgery and a stereotypical view of surgeons. I was mentored and had a positive experience which is why I chose the field I did. And I agree with Smurfette, both in residency, fellowship and now in practice, the ED will say that the surgeons are not the difficult ones to deal with - we show up when they call as opposed to many other specialties who argue about it and don't show for several hours. But YMMV.

Don't let others tell you who you are and what you will like. I rarely hear of someone leaving surgery because they were "too nice".

i think it is better to just be nice a do what you enjoy doing. in my school, surgeons are the nicest and most organised doctors. maybe its because they dont take hectic calls like in internal medicine but they are good people who are always willing to teach and encourage people to do surgery.

Originally Posted by SteinUmStein

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that neurosurg residents think everyone else is slacking.

I think the gen surg guys work hard, different strokes I suppose..

I'm on my trauma surgery rotation, and we have two VERY NICE 4th and 5th year residents. We also have a pretty damn nice Fellow on our service as well.

The one B$%#$ that I did meet on the service, is actually and EM resident who has some sort of stick shoved up her butt.

OP- people will always be telling you to do the wrong thing during this journey. I'm sure this is not the first piece of bad advice, nor will it be the last. The important thing is that you make your own decisions about what you want to do and remember that at the end of the day the only one you have to answer to is yourself. Good luck in whatever specialty you decide to pursue.

Do what you want. Surgeons can be nice.

Has anyone been told they're too mean to be a surgeon?

Originally Posted by neusu

Has anyone been told they're too mean to be a surgeon?

No one that is alive.

Originally Posted by neusu

Has anyone been told they're too mean to be a surgeon?

Not mean, but too arrogant.

I had a classmate who did an away rotation at a GS program which was known to be a bit on the malignant side. By his own report he was told in person and his evaluation back to our school noted that he was "too arrogant" and therefore, it was felt that he would be a "danger should he choose surgery as a career".

He was proud of that. I was appalled.

He is now an EM physician (and apparently still annoys people with his arrogance...even the surgeons there).

Hahaha, yesterday was my second day of MS3. I was on a FM rotation and the nurse told me I was way too nice to be a surgeon even though that's what I think I want.

Should I just scope out the toughest resident on my surgical rotation and punch him in the face on day 1, thereby asserting my dominance?

Originally Posted by Alvarez13

Hahaha, yesterday was my second day of MS3. I was on a FM rotation and the nurse told me I was way too nice to be a surgeon even though that's what I think I want.

Should I just scope out the toughest resident on my surgical rotation and punch him in the face on day 1, thereby asserting my dominance?

Given that their scalpel and dissection skills are probably far superior to yours, I'd say no. Unless you want to wake up in a bathtub with no kidney or something!

Just kidding. A kidney would be too obvious.

Originally Posted by Smurfette

Given that their scalpel and dissection skills are probably far superior to yours, I'd say no. Unless you want to wake up in a bathtub with no kidney or something!

Just kidding. A kidney would be too obvious.

Then I'll just have to outsmart them!

Originally Posted by Smurfette

Given that their scalpel and dissection skills are probably far superior to yours, I'd say no. Unless you want to wake up in a bathtub with no kidney or something!

Just kidding. A kidney would be too obvious.

I hear they prefer tubal ligations and vasectomies, thus ensuring their genes make it to the next generation of mean surgeons without the competition.